Please elaborate why is metalworker at cmc 3 with summoning sickness 500% more broken unless you opened it with workshop it's slow as crap. Not only that but it requires many cards like workshop a complete build around to even be good. The rc doesn't care about card value or collectors they have stated this multiple times only format health. I feel like without broken mana and the cmc 1-2 u/b tutors the format is much more balenced
Well, lets ignore the fact that there are combos with him, because it isn't really relevant. Also we'll assume that there is no other acceleration than the cards mentioned. Whats worse; BlueCombo.Dec having 2U on turn 1 or having somewhere between 2UUUU and 6UUUU on turn four. Which btw is the turn they probably want to start trying to combo off.
If a blue deck gets that Crypt, then at turn 4 (providing no missed land drops) they're guaranteed of 2UUUU. Without having to rely on tapping the Metalworker. If they tap out on turn 3 for Metalworker, they're vulnerable to spot removal, which should be aimed at a metalworker like it should be aimed at all potentional combo pieces (like, say, Magus of the Coffers).
Mana Crypt, to me, is bannable on two criteria by now. For one, it considerably lowers how interesting a game is after one player drops it T1. The one who drops it has a massive advantage and is likely going for an as quick a win as possible. Two, it's pretty much unobtainable, but should go in nearly every deck if you have one. Much like, say, the Moxen. I think that based on that combination, Mana Crypt deserves a boot.
Now Metalworker, he's frail. He gives away hand information. He has summoning sickness. He's vulnerable to just about every piece of removal ever printed. Unless he's given haste (In which case you REALLY should've seen it coming), it spends its first turn as a 1/2 for 3. Compare to Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary. That card comes down a turn either, is near-guaranteed to ramp a green deck up to GGGGGG on turn THREE, and isn't reliant on your hand, and in fact tends to be even more powerful the longer a game goes on. Do we really consider Metalworker that much stronger then Rofellos?
"BUT METALWORKER CAN COMBO OUT". Your point? So can Palinchron (Who is far easier to protect), Magus of the Coffers, Rofellos, Deadeye Navigator, Zealous Conscripts and a metric truckload of other cards. All Metalworker is in the end is a rather effective mana rock, which is limited by a variety of reasons and EXTREMELY vulnerable. It's about time we unban some stuff, and Metalworker should top that list.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Yes but even if you carry 30% artifacts in your list to get 3 artifacts in your hand turn 3, you will have 2 left after playing Metalworker turn 2. Leaving you with 4UUU turn 3 which you can use. And you cannot play the artifacts in your hand without dropping your mana output so even if you have the draw to refill your hand with artifacts the amount of castable cards you can play are fairly limited. It takes a lot of draw to break the card, something on the lines of Ad Nauseam, which i think is more ban worthy
Yes but even if you carry 30% artifacts in your list to get 3 artifacts in your hand turn 3, you will have 2 left after playing Metalworker turn 2. Leaving you with 4UUU turn 3 which you can use. And you cannot play the artifacts in your hand without dropping your mana output so even if you have the draw to refill your hand with artifacts the amount of castable cards you can play are fairly limited. It takes a lot of draw to break the card, something on the lines of Ad Nauseam, which i think is more ban worthy
Playing Metalworker on turn 2 requires a mana rock or ancient tomb on Turn 1, so I think you meant casting him T3 to get 4UUUU on T4? Which requires no missed land drops, AND Metalworker, AND two other artifacts in hand, which is kind of iffy IMO.
And I agree that Ad Nauseum should be rid off, but sadly the council has this weird idea that there are people using it fairly and thus it needs be banned.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Please elaborate why is metalworker at cmc 3 with summoning sickness 500% more broken unless you opened it with workshop it's slow as crap. Not only that but it requires many cards like workshop a complete build around to even be good. The rc doesn't care about card value or collectors they have stated this multiple times only format health. I feel like without broken mana and the cmc 1-2 u/b tutors the format is much more balenced
Well, lets ignore the fact that there are combos with him, because it isn't really relevant. Also we'll assume that there is no other acceleration than the cards mentioned. Whats worse; BlueCombo.Dec having 2U on turn 1 or having somewhere between 2UUUU and 6UUUU on turn four. Which btw is the turn they probably want to start trying to combo off.
If we're assuming no more acceleration what artifacts are in the blue players hand lol? Not like you can play 5 memory jars even if half the real cards in your deck are artifacts and worker taps for 6 or more turn 4 crypt has already tapped for 8 and let you draw into more cards if tutor your win already. By the time it comes online without workshop (which is a more broken card IMO ) crypt has already won you the game. Also as far as combos I see tidespout in your blue list your not fooling me cards that make more than they cost loop quite fine... Let's look at it this way how much would you really miss more than 50% of the games you play starting with a mana crypt or sol ring ? Every player I play with had both we had to undo the commander mulligan rules so our games didn't get decided by coin flips and mana crypts. Every time I play in the less compeituvd meta now that crypt spiked I get more sol rings than they do and my second one is better... People will force of will your turn 1 crypt rather than desk with it and it's the right play quite often. I can play classic on mtgo and okay 4 memory jars or windfalls but why can I only play 1 mana crypt 1 Fastbond? Why does vintage limit p9 and crypt ring ? Because THESE CARDS ARE BROKEN. Sure it's mess exaggerated in a bad deck but the cards are never fair they are imbalanced they don't decide who wins what they do is warp the ebtire meta game and flow of nearly every game......
If a blue deck gets that Crypt, then at turn 4 (providing no missed land drops) they're guaranteed of 2UUUU. Without having to rely on tapping the Metalworker. If they tap out on turn 3 for Metalworker, they're vulnerable to spot removal, which should be aimed at a metalworker like it should be aimed at all potentional combo pieces (like, say, Magus of the Coffers).
Mana Crypt, to me, is bannable on two criteria by now. For one, it considerably lowers how interesting a game is after one player drops it T1. The one who drops it has a massive advantage and is likely going for an as quick a win as possible. Two, it's pretty much unobtainable, but should go in nearly every deck if you have one. Much like, say, the Moxen. I think that based on that combination, Mana Crypt deserves a boot.
Now Metalworker, he's frail. He gives away hand information. He has summoning sickness. He's vulnerable to just about every piece of removal ever printed. Unless he's given haste (In which case you REALLY should've seen it coming), it spends its first turn as a 1/2 for 3. Compare to Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary. That card comes down a turn either, is near-guaranteed to ramp a green deck up to GGGGGG on turn THREE, and isn't reliant on your hand, and in fact tends to be even more powerful the longer a game goes on. Do we really consider Metalworker that much stronger then Rofellos?
"BUT METALWORKER CAN COMBO OUT". Your point? So can Palinchron (Who is far easier to protect), Magus of the Coffers, Rofellos, Deadeye Navigator, Zealous Conscripts and a metric truckload of other cards. All Metalworker is in the end is a rather effective mana rock, which is limited by a variety of reasons and EXTREMELY vulnerable. It's about time we unban some stuff, and Metalworker should top that list.
Sure, if you tap out on turn three for a metalworker you are vulnerable to spot removal, but no more vulnerable than a mana crypt would be to spot removal if you tapped out with it in play. Personally I would much rather have metalworker removed than my other combo pieces.
The only criteria I feel that mana crypt could potentially violate is creating too much mana too quickly, but is an extra two mana on turn one really too quick? As far as a perceived barrier to entry the $200 that it fetches on starcitygames.com right now is nothing compared to a lot of cards that are legal in the format right now. Timetwister currently sells for $600 and Imperial Seal for $800 and both are legal in commander. I'm not even really convinced that any of the cards on the ban list are currently there for violating this criteria; although I could see some of the power nine remaining on the list for that reason. As for lowering the level of interestingness, if that is even a thing, of a game, that is definitely not a criteria for banning.
I find it hard to argue against unbanning cards because I am a firm believer in less is more when it comes to ban lists, and I would love to play metalworker in my Azami, Lady of Scrolls deck, but I'd just like to point out blue decks can draw artifacts a lot faster than green decks can play lands. I definitely don't think that metalworker is on the list due to his combos. He is most likely on there as a violator of the too much mana too quickly criteria.
If we're assuming no more acceleration what artifacts are in the blue players hand lol? Not like you can play 5 memory jars even if half the real cards in your deck are artifacts and worker taps for 6 or more turn 4 crypt has already tapped for 8 and let you draw into more cards if tutor your win already. By the time it comes online without workshop (which is a more broken card IMO ) crypt has already won you the game. Also as far as combos I see tidespout in your blue list your not fooling me cards that make more than they cost loop quite fine... Let's look at it this way how much would you really miss more than 50% of the games you play starting with a mana crypt or sol ring ? Every player I play with had both we had to undo the commander mulligan rules so our games didn't get decided by coin flips and mana crypts. Every time I play in the less compeituvd meta now that crypt spiked I get more sol rings than they do and my second one is better... People will force of will your turn 1 crypt rather than desk with it and it's the right play quite often. I can play classic on mtgo and okay 4 memory jars or windfalls but why can I only play 1 mana crypt 1 Fastbond? Why does vintage limit p9 and crypt ring ? Because THESE CARDS ARE BROKEN. Sure it's mess exaggerated in a bad deck but the cards are never fair they are imbalanced they don't decide who wins what they do is warp the ebtire meta game and flow of nearly every game......
Ok, so you can't really quantify how much mana metalworker will make, because each deck, and further, each game will be different. My argument is that metalworker has much greater potential to produce broken amounts of mana.
It doesn't really matter if mana crypt is imbalanced because the RC doesn't consider commander to be a competitive format. As far as the card being format warping or creating an undesirable game state you aren't going to get me to buy that. I've played with and against Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in fair and unfair decks for years, and it occasionally cause quick explosive ends to games, but more often than not the advantage it provides isn't really that big of a deal.
So explain to me how does that same logic not make metal worker a non issue? Like I've says a million times the ring player doesn't always win but having "a crypt ring player" in over half the games you play does warp the meta. I personally find it quite undesirable to have players at 5 mana off crypt into ramp when other players had to take hand with a single ramps 1 at cmc 2. If they have a high curve they bomb out if they have a fast curve they refill maybe they get teamed and Simone mana drains thier cmc 6 card and goes to town either way the cards from my experience propel the game out of early game across all metas and I don't like feeling like I need to play certain cards or I'm handicapped. They just take the 99 cards and reduce it to 97 and warp the meta I feel about the same about demonic and vampiric and to some extent mystical tutor and I LOVE playing those cards but I can't help but think a format without them would be more in line with the RCs vision for this format. In metas filled with durdle.decks I dint think there is even a need fur a banlist it's self regulated. Once the power level takes a step up these cards run the format.
Sure, if you tap out on turn three for a metalworker you are vulnerable to spot removal, but no more vulnerable than a mana crypt would be to spot removal if you tapped out with it in play. Personally I would much rather have metalworker removed than my other combo pieces.
The only criteria I feel that mana crypt could potentially violate is creating too much mana too quickly, but is an extra two mana on turn one really too quick? As far as a perceived barrier to entry the $200 that it fetches on starcitygames.com right now is nothing compared to a lot of cards that are legal in the format right now. Timetwister currently sells for $600 and Imperial Seal for $800 and both are legal in commander. I'm not even really convinced that any of the cards on the ban list are currently there for violating this criteria; although I could see some of the power nine remaining on the list for that reason. As for lowering the level of interestingness, if that is even a thing, of a game, that is definitely not a criteria for banning.
I find it hard to argue against unbanning cards because I am a firm believer in less is more when it comes to ban lists, and I would love to play metalworker in my Azami, Lady of Scrolls deck, but I'd just like to point out blue decks can draw artifacts a lot faster than green decks can play lands. I definitely don't think that metalworker is on the list due to his combos. He is most likely on there as a violator of the too much mana too quickly criteria.
"No more vulnerable than Mana Crypt"
Nice joke. The Crypt isn't vulnerable to Doom Blade, Day of Judgment, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Decree of Pain -insert about 150 other effects here- Shock, Damnation, Prey Upon and so many more. So yeah, I'd say the Worker is far more vulnerable.
Now, the percieved barrier of entry point. You mention the Seal and Twister, but neither are really 100% staples. The Seal is outclassed in what it does by Vampiric Tutor, and Timetwister is arguably worse then Time Spiral. They also don't go in 100% of the decks - given their color restrictions. There are a few cards banned on this criteria, or at least, this one was named.
A Mana Crypt early game can ruin a game as much, if not more, then Sylvan Primordial on T7 can. I'd say creating stale/boring boardstates is exactly a reason to ban a card.
Now...blue cards can draw artifacts a lot faster than green decks can play lands - this is debatable. Between Exploration, Mana Bond and some other varieties and the common Ramp suite, this isn't as one-sided a contest as you make it out to be. Furthermore, Metalworker is inherently vulnerable not only to removal, but also to hand disruption. Rofellos is weak to land destruction - which happens to be a lot rarer, also due to the social stigma.
Metalworker, under normal circumstances, cannot provide any mana before T4. He's also far more vulnerable than common ramp spells/mana rocks are. Honestly, I'd be surprised if you get more than 6 mana out of him T4. A T1 Mana Crypt can, at that point, already have provided you with 8 mana. Same for Sol Ring.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Ok, so you can't really quantify how much mana metalworker will make, because each deck, and further, each game will be different. My argument is that metalworker has much greater potential to produce broken amounts of mana.
It doesn't really matter if mana crypt is imbalanced because the RC doesn't consider commander to be a competitive format. As far as the card being format warping or creating an undesirable game state you aren't going to get me to buy that. I've played with and against Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in fair and unfair decks for years, and it occasionally cause quick explosive ends to games, but more often than not the advantage it provides isn't really that big of a deal.
A 0cc rock that taps for 2 produces a broken amount of mana already. Not potentially broken or build around broken but actually broken. The drawback on Mana Crypt is laughable considering how broken it is, especially in Commander. Comparing Mana Crypt with Metalworker is an insult to Mana Crypt.
Ok, so you can't really quantify how much mana metalworker will make, because each deck, and further, each game will be different. My argument is that metalworker has much greater potential to produce broken amounts of mana.
It doesn't really matter if mana crypt is imbalanced because the RC doesn't consider commander to be a competitive format. As far as the card being format warping or creating an undesirable game state you aren't going to get me to buy that. I've played with and against Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in fair and unfair decks for years, and it occasionally cause quick explosive ends to games, but more often than not the advantage it provides isn't really that big of a deal.
A 0cc rock that taps for 2 produces a broken amount of mana already. Not potentially broken or build around broken but actually broken. The drawback on Mana Crypt is laughable considering how broken it is, especially in Commander. Comparing Mana Crypt with Metalworker is an insult to Mana Crypt.
I've said this many times before but the drawback actually does come into play every now and then. I've seen it numerous times, and not because the Mana Crypt's controller was targeted in most cases. That said, Mana Crypt isn't comparable to Metalworker.
I've been testing Sage of Hours with my playgroups, and I can say one thing: Be prepared for a lot of whining. He's rarely capable of doing what he's supposed to do, but when he does no one shuts up about it. My playgroups do seem to have less of a problem with my Magosi infinite combo than they do with Sage for some reason.
Metalworker is banned for one reason. And that's because it was banned in Legacy in an era where the RC actually took cues from that format. Apparently, someone thought Survival of the Fittest was a very Spirit of EDY-y card, because it's about that time that they stopped following Legacy's bans. (Survival is busted, 1-card combo, btw.)
By the same token, Mana Crypt will never be banned because Sol Ring will never be banned. It's in the preconstructed decks, after all, and it's become somewhat of a poster-child for the "make insane amounts of mana, waste it on 7-drop creatures" kind of playstyle.
Whether it's hard to police the format or not, the RC could make it easy on themselves and just adopt all Legacy bans and all cards restricted in Vintage. Maybe people would miss Goblin Recruiter, but I think I've seen enough proof that it's impossible to expect sanity from the current regime on what Legacy bans are suitable to enforce and which to ignore.
Ok so I'm willing to admit that I might have overestimated Metalworker's ability to produce broken amounts of mana. I did some goldfishing last night where I played with hands of six cards and Mana Crypt. I then played the game out recording what I did with mana crypt and what I would have done in the same situation if it were a Metalworker. The games went like this: game 1 Mana Crypt combos on turn 7 and Metalworker combos on turn 6, it was a bad hand but I tried it because it had Mishra's Workshop, game 2 Mana Crypt combos on turn 5 and Metalworker combos on turn 3, game 3 Mana Crypt combos on turn 6 and Metalworker combos on turn 3. This may sound like i'm trying to push Metalworker's mana on you guys, but it turns out Metalworker is just incredibly busted with Staff of Domination. Each game I played it seemed like Mana Crypt was faster and going to finish first until I found a way to tutor Staff of Domination. I'm not saying that this is an argument for keeping Metalworker banned. In fact I'd love to see less cards on the ban list. I'm just trying to point out a possible reason why he is still there.
Whether it's hard to police the format or not, the RC could make it easy on themselves and just adopt all Legacy bans and all cards restricted in Vintage. Maybe people would miss Goblin Recruiter, but I think I've seen enough proof that it's impossible to expect sanity from the current regime on what Legacy bans are suitable to enforce and which to ignore.
So you are saying that cards like Falling Star and Flash are unhealthy for the format while cards like Worldfire and Karakas would be good for it? Commander definitely need its own ban list.
Im sorry but your gold fishing session means literally nothing for plenty of reason I'm sure your aware of. That would be like me playing my doomsday deck and showing you why dark ritual is better than mana crypt.
Metalworker is banned for one reason. And that's because it was banned in Legacy in an era where the RC actually took cues from that format. Apparently, someone thought [c]Survival of the Fittest{/c] was a very Spirit of EDY-y card, because it's about that time that they stopped following Legacy's bans. (Survival is busted, 1-card combo, btw.)
By the same token, Mana Crypt will never be banned because [c}Sol Ring[/c] will never be banned. It's in the preconstructed decks, after all, and it's become somewhat of a poster-child for the "make insane amounts of mana, waste it on 7-drop creatures" kind of playstyle.
Whether it's hard to police the format or not, the RC could make it easy on themselves and just adopt all Legacy bans and all cards restricted in Vintage. Maybe people would miss Goblin Recruiter, but I think I've seen enough proof that it's impossible to expect sanity from the current regime on what Legacy bans are suitable to enforce and which to ignore.
"It was in a precon" is a poor argument, because Trade Secrets was in a C11 deck. Plus, Mana Crypt =/= Sol Ring. One could be banned while the other remains legal.
No sol ring and mana crypt are about even in Thier ideal meta in fact ring is probly better with derp curves. Precon or not they probly don't ban the cards because all the golems who would cry if they lost their precious ring. Also I consider mind desire strip mine and wheel all very ban worthy based on power level in edh if that how they did it. Also trade secrets was the stupidest card in the format best ban ever
Im sorry but your gold fishing session means literally nothing for plenty of reason I'm sure your aware of. That would be like me playing my doomsday deck and showing you why dark ritual is better than mana crypt.
Understandable. There is no way for you to know my skill level or if I would have made the same decisions you would, but before you just say that I'm some scrub that plays with Grizzly Bears you should check out the deck I used. It is the Azami deck in my sig.
So you are saying that cards like Falling Star and Flash are unhealthy for the format while cards like Worldfire and Karakas would be good for it? Commander definitely need its own ban list.
Ok, I guess I didn't make it back in time for all the affirming the consequent fallacies.
What I said was that EDH should adopt the Legacy bans and Vintage restrictions. I didn't say that EDH should stop making its own bans in addition to those.
As for those cards banned in Legacy because of a specific deck (Frantic Search, Black Vise, Mind's Desire...), I think people should learn not to miss them. That's exactly what I mean when I advocate the Legacy banlist, that if a card is illegal or restricted in any other eternal format, the presumption should be that it's not going to be played in Casual. Instead, the presumption seems to be that Timmy gets to play with what Timmy wants, as long as it's not a 6-7 drop with an overly powerful ETB effect that people get tired of. But I have no idea who this guy is who can't play EDH without Black Vise or Frantic Search. So I have no idea why the rest of us would need to stage a debate challenging the hypothetical presumption of non-legality for Legacy banned cards if that player doesn't exist.
Case in point, we seem to disagree about Memory Jar, for one. Goblin Welder does exist in this format, but otherwise as a 1-sided wheel effect also, it's a busted card that I've had to force myself not to play. Instead of having a town hall debate about every candidate banned in Legacy that people want legal in EDH, the presumption of illegality would do everyone just fine. After all, administrative inefficiency is part of the reason the RC stopped trying to balance the format for any games other than those between 7-drop decks. It's too hard for us to find the busted cards, so the only alternative is for everyone to just police yourselves, *wink wink*, and so on.
I can certainly think of a lot of cards that are just fine, but I can't see any compelling argument for why any card banned in Legacy just NEEDS to be played in a casual format.
So you are saying that cards like Falling Star and Flash are unhealthy for the format while cards like Worldfire and Karakas would be good for it? Commander definitely need its own ban list.
Ok, I guess I didn't make it back in time for all the affirming the consequent fallacies.
What I said was that EDH should adopt the Legacy bans and Vintage restrictions. I didn't say that EDH should stop making its own bans in addition to those.
As for those cards banned in Legacy because of a specific deck (Frantic Search, Black Vise, Mind's Desire...), I think people should learn not to miss them. That's exactly what I mean when I advocate the Legacy banlist, that if a card is illegal or restricted in any other eternal format, the presumption should be that it's not going to be played in Casual. Instead, the presumption seems to be that Timmy gets to play with what Timmy wants, as long as it's not a 6-7 drop with an overly powerful ETB effect that people get tired of. But I have no idea who this guy is who can't play EDH without Black Vise or Frantic Search. So I have no idea why the rest of us would need to stage a debate challenging the hypothetical presumption of non-legality for Legacy banned cards if that player doesn't exist.
Case in point, we seem to disagree about Memory Jar, for one. Goblin Welder does exist in this format, but otherwise as a 1-sided wheel effect also, it's a busted card that I've had to force myself not to play. Instead of having a town hall debate about every candidate banned in Legacy that people want legal in EDH, the presumption of illegality would do everyone just fine. After all, administrative inefficiency is part of the reason the RC stopped trying to balance the format for any games other than those between 7-drop decks. It's too hard for us to find the busted cards, so the only alternative is for everyone to just police yourselves, *wink wink*, and so on.
I can certainly think of a lot of cards that are just fine, but I can't see any compelling argument for why any card banned in Legacy just NEEDS to be played in a casual format.
But you still haven't answered my question. How are the cards I listed breaking games? I mean, that's the criteria used for banning a card. So if they are so powerful that they have to get banned in Legacy, surely you can name at least one deck where Mental Misstep is a powerhouse.
Please elaborate why is metalworker at cmc 3 with summoning sickness 500% more broken unless you opened it with workshop it's slow as crap. Not only that but it requires many cards like workshop a complete build around to even be good. The rc doesn't care about card value or collectors they have stated this multiple times only format health. I feel like without broken mana and the cmc 1-2 u/b tutors the format is much more balenced
Well, lets ignore the fact that there are combos with him, because it isn't really relevant. Also we'll assume that there is no other acceleration than the cards mentioned. Whats worse; BlueCombo.Dec having 2U on turn 1 or having somewhere between 2UUUU and 6UUUU on turn four. Which btw is the turn they probably want to start trying to combo off.
If a blue deck gets that Crypt, then at turn 4 (providing no missed land drops) they're guaranteed of 2UUUU. Without having to rely on tapping the Metalworker. If they tap out on turn 3 for Metalworker, they're vulnerable to spot removal, which should be aimed at a metalworker like it should be aimed at all potentional combo pieces (like, say, Magus of the Coffers).
Mana Crypt, to me, is bannable on two criteria by now. For one, it considerably lowers how interesting a game is after one player drops it T1. The one who drops it has a massive advantage and is likely going for an as quick a win as possible. Two, it's pretty much unobtainable, but should go in nearly every deck if you have one. Much like, say, the Moxen. I think that based on that combination, Mana Crypt deserves a boot.
Now Metalworker, he's frail. He gives away hand information. He has summoning sickness. He's vulnerable to just about every piece of removal ever printed. Unless he's given haste (In which case you REALLY should've seen it coming), it spends its first turn as a 1/2 for 3. Compare to Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary. That card comes down a turn either, is near-guaranteed to ramp a green deck up to GGGGGG on turn THREE, and isn't reliant on your hand, and in fact tends to be even more powerful the longer a game goes on. Do we really consider Metalworker that much stronger then Rofellos?
"BUT METALWORKER CAN COMBO OUT". Your point? So can Palinchron (Who is far easier to protect), Magus of the Coffers, Rofellos, Deadeye Navigator, Zealous Conscripts and a metric truckload of other cards. All Metalworker is in the end is a rather effective mana rock, which is limited by a variety of reasons and EXTREMELY vulnerable. It's about time we unban some stuff, and Metalworker should top that list.
I can't really argue either way on the "interesting" argument since it's a "potayto, potahto" debate but I strongly disagree with your "unobtainable" assessment. It looks like it runs $100 - $200 dollars, it's certainly NOT in mox territory, it's more so in ABUR dual territory.
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"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
I somewhat dislike Sol Ring/Mana Crypt for the same reason I dislike cheap MLD, fast combo, and one-shot aggro in a multiplayer setting: the potential of their existence warps the game as much as their resolution. If everyone is running Mental Misstep, Shattering Spree, Vandalblast, Artifact Blast, Nature's Claim, Crumble, etc then the impact of Crypt/Ring are largely mitigated. However, this is at the cost of variety and freedom of deck design; the game becomes 90 card singleton + fast mana + ways to deal with fast mana.
The difference between the other strategies I mentioned and fast mana is that fast mana remains incredibly format-warping even in a 1v1 setting. So banning them in 1v1 is reasonable.
On the other hand, my experience playing with many groups, all over the NE US has led me to believe that there is a large bias towards CrawWurm.deck, meaning that fast mana is somewhat less of an issue since not much happens in the early game. So I'd say that I would prefer them to remain unbanned and dealt with in a group-by-group basis.
So you are saying that cards like Falling Star and Flash are unhealthy for the format while cards like Worldfire and Karakas would be good for it? Commander definitely need its own ban list.
Ok, I guess I didn't make it back in time for all the affirming the consequent fallacies.
What I said was that EDH should adopt the Legacy bans and Vintage restrictions. I didn't say that EDH should stop making its own bans in addition to those.
As for those cards banned in Legacy because of a specific deck (Frantic Search, Black Vise, Mind's Desire...), I think people should learn not to miss them. That's exactly what I mean when I advocate the Legacy banlist, that if a card is illegal or restricted in any other eternal format, the presumption should be that it's not going to be played in Casual. Instead, the presumption seems to be that Timmy gets to play with what Timmy wants, as long as it's not a 6-7 drop with an overly powerful ETB effect that people get tired of. But I have no idea who this guy is who can't play EDH without Black Vise or Frantic Search. So I have no idea why the rest of us would need to stage a debate challenging the hypothetical presumption of non-legality for Legacy banned cards if that player doesn't exist.
Case in point, we seem to disagree about Memory Jar, for one. Goblin Welder does exist in this format, but otherwise as a 1-sided wheel effect also, it's a busted card that I've had to force myself not to play. Instead of having a town hall debate about every candidate banned in Legacy that people want legal in EDH, the presumption of illegality would do everyone just fine. After all, administrative inefficiency is part of the reason the RC stopped trying to balance the format for any games other than those between 7-drop decks. It's too hard for us to find the busted cards, so the only alternative is for everyone to just police yourselves, *wink wink*, and so on.
I can certainly think of a lot of cards that are just fine, but I can't see any compelling argument for why any card banned in Legacy just NEEDS to be played in a casual format.
But you still haven't answered my question. How are the cards I listed breaking games? I mean, that's the criteria used for banning a card. So if they are so powerful that they have to get banned in Legacy, surely you can name at least one deck where Mental Misstep is a powerhouse.
Breaking games being the criteria, first, let me be the contrarian this time and say, no. A true RC lemming would know that "power level" is not a criteria.
Even if it were though, I guess where we lose each other is that I'm proposing a new criteria. That criteria would be that if it's on the Legacy banlist or Vintage restricted, then it's banned in EDH. That's the criteria. Ovebroad, maybe. But easy to administer.
Well I guess it's good to know that I'm not a lemming. But if I understand you correctly, you are in favor of banning cards which by avoiding my question you admit are not problem cards, yet would legalize cards like Primeval Titan, which in fact did pose problems. Legacy and Commander are two different formats with two different goals. Maybe your meta plays closer to Legacy than most, but unless you're simply maintaining a narrow minded viewpoint, I don't understand why you think one ban list would suffice for both.
Metalworker is banned for one reason. And that's because it was banned in Legacy in an era where the RC actually took cues from that format.
I'm pretty sure that this is demonstrably false. Metalworker was banned in Legacy in Sept. '04 during the "great Type 1/1.5 divide". It was unbanned in Legacy September '09 where it remains unbanned. It was not banned in EDH till March '09 and it remains on the banned list. There is little (if any) correlation between the two banned lists at any point and I'm fairly sure that nobody on the RC ever "took cues" from the Legacy banned list when looking at cards to ban in EDH. I think that adopting the Legacy banned list would be an expedient way to shut some people up, but that does not mean it would be the best thing for the format.
Jusstice's approach seems the easiest way to resolve some issues. Yes you lose a few cards that have no reason to be banned, but then administering the banlist is just so much easier. And you can still have things like Griselbrand, PT, SP, Biorhythm banned. Out go all the 1-2 CMC hard tutors and fast mana rocks. Seems real easy to implement. The RC should announce it for a test run.
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If a blue deck gets that Crypt, then at turn 4 (providing no missed land drops) they're guaranteed of 2UUUU. Without having to rely on tapping the Metalworker. If they tap out on turn 3 for Metalworker, they're vulnerable to spot removal, which should be aimed at a metalworker like it should be aimed at all potentional combo pieces (like, say, Magus of the Coffers).
Mana Crypt, to me, is bannable on two criteria by now. For one, it considerably lowers how interesting a game is after one player drops it T1. The one who drops it has a massive advantage and is likely going for an as quick a win as possible. Two, it's pretty much unobtainable, but should go in nearly every deck if you have one. Much like, say, the Moxen. I think that based on that combination, Mana Crypt deserves a boot.
Now Metalworker, he's frail. He gives away hand information. He has summoning sickness. He's vulnerable to just about every piece of removal ever printed. Unless he's given haste (In which case you REALLY should've seen it coming), it spends its first turn as a 1/2 for 3. Compare to Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary. That card comes down a turn either, is near-guaranteed to ramp a green deck up to GGGGGG on turn THREE, and isn't reliant on your hand, and in fact tends to be even more powerful the longer a game goes on. Do we really consider Metalworker that much stronger then Rofellos?
"BUT METALWORKER CAN COMBO OUT". Your point? So can Palinchron (Who is far easier to protect), Magus of the Coffers, Rofellos, Deadeye Navigator, Zealous Conscripts and a metric truckload of other cards. All Metalworker is in the end is a rather effective mana rock, which is limited by a variety of reasons and EXTREMELY vulnerable. It's about time we unban some stuff, and Metalworker should top that list.
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Playing Metalworker on turn 2 requires a mana rock or ancient tomb on Turn 1, so I think you meant casting him T3 to get 4UUUU on T4? Which requires no missed land drops, AND Metalworker, AND two other artifacts in hand, which is kind of iffy IMO.
And I agree that Ad Nauseum should be rid off, but sadly the council has this weird idea that there are people using it fairly and thus it needs be banned.
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If we're assuming no more acceleration what artifacts are in the blue players hand lol? Not like you can play 5 memory jars even if half the real cards in your deck are artifacts and worker taps for 6 or more turn 4 crypt has already tapped for 8 and let you draw into more cards if tutor your win already. By the time it comes online without workshop (which is a more broken card IMO ) crypt has already won you the game. Also as far as combos I see tidespout in your blue list your not fooling me cards that make more than they cost loop quite fine... Let's look at it this way how much would you really miss more than 50% of the games you play starting with a mana crypt or sol ring ? Every player I play with had both we had to undo the commander mulligan rules so our games didn't get decided by coin flips and mana crypts. Every time I play in the less compeituvd meta now that crypt spiked I get more sol rings than they do and my second one is better... People will force of will your turn 1 crypt rather than desk with it and it's the right play quite often. I can play classic on mtgo and okay 4 memory jars or windfalls but why can I only play 1 mana crypt 1 Fastbond? Why does vintage limit p9 and crypt ring ? Because THESE CARDS ARE BROKEN. Sure it's mess exaggerated in a bad deck but the cards are never fair they are imbalanced they don't decide who wins what they do is warp the ebtire meta game and flow of nearly every game......
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
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The only criteria I feel that mana crypt could potentially violate is creating too much mana too quickly, but is an extra two mana on turn one really too quick? As far as a perceived barrier to entry the $200 that it fetches on starcitygames.com right now is nothing compared to a lot of cards that are legal in the format right now. Timetwister currently sells for $600 and Imperial Seal for $800 and both are legal in commander. I'm not even really convinced that any of the cards on the ban list are currently there for violating this criteria; although I could see some of the power nine remaining on the list for that reason. As for lowering the level of interestingness, if that is even a thing, of a game, that is definitely not a criteria for banning.
I find it hard to argue against unbanning cards because I am a firm believer in less is more when it comes to ban lists, and I would love to play metalworker in my Azami, Lady of Scrolls deck, but I'd just like to point out blue decks can draw artifacts a lot faster than green decks can play lands. I definitely don't think that metalworker is on the list due to his combos. He is most likely on there as a violator of the too much mana too quickly criteria.
Ok, so you can't really quantify how much mana metalworker will make, because each deck, and further, each game will be different. My argument is that metalworker has much greater potential to produce broken amounts of mana.
It doesn't really matter if mana crypt is imbalanced because the RC doesn't consider commander to be a competitive format. As far as the card being format warping or creating an undesirable game state you aren't going to get me to buy that. I've played with and against Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in fair and unfair decks for years, and it occasionally cause quick explosive ends to games, but more often than not the advantage it provides isn't really that big of a deal.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
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"No more vulnerable than Mana Crypt"
Nice joke. The Crypt isn't vulnerable to Doom Blade, Day of Judgment, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Decree of Pain -insert about 150 other effects here- Shock, Damnation, Prey Upon and so many more. So yeah, I'd say the Worker is far more vulnerable.
Now, the percieved barrier of entry point. You mention the Seal and Twister, but neither are really 100% staples. The Seal is outclassed in what it does by Vampiric Tutor, and Timetwister is arguably worse then Time Spiral. They also don't go in 100% of the decks - given their color restrictions. There are a few cards banned on this criteria, or at least, this one was named.
A Mana Crypt early game can ruin a game as much, if not more, then Sylvan Primordial on T7 can. I'd say creating stale/boring boardstates is exactly a reason to ban a card.
Now...blue cards can draw artifacts a lot faster than green decks can play lands - this is debatable. Between Exploration, Mana Bond and some other varieties and the common Ramp suite, this isn't as one-sided a contest as you make it out to be. Furthermore, Metalworker is inherently vulnerable not only to removal, but also to hand disruption. Rofellos is weak to land destruction - which happens to be a lot rarer, also due to the social stigma.
Metalworker, under normal circumstances, cannot provide any mana before T4. He's also far more vulnerable than common ramp spells/mana rocks are. Honestly, I'd be surprised if you get more than 6 mana out of him T4. A T1 Mana Crypt can, at that point, already have provided you with 8 mana. Same for Sol Ring.
A 0cc rock that taps for 2 produces a broken amount of mana already. Not potentially broken or build around broken but actually broken. The drawback on Mana Crypt is laughable considering how broken it is, especially in Commander. Comparing Mana Crypt with Metalworker is an insult to Mana Crypt.
I've said this many times before but the drawback actually does come into play every now and then. I've seen it numerous times, and not because the Mana Crypt's controller was targeted in most cases. That said, Mana Crypt isn't comparable to Metalworker.
I've been testing Sage of Hours with my playgroups, and I can say one thing: Be prepared for a lot of whining. He's rarely capable of doing what he's supposed to do, but when he does no one shuts up about it. My playgroups do seem to have less of a problem with my Magosi infinite combo than they do with Sage for some reason.
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By the same token, Mana Crypt will never be banned because Sol Ring will never be banned. It's in the preconstructed decks, after all, and it's become somewhat of a poster-child for the "make insane amounts of mana, waste it on 7-drop creatures" kind of playstyle.
Whether it's hard to police the format or not, the RC could make it easy on themselves and just adopt all Legacy bans and all cards restricted in Vintage. Maybe people would miss Goblin Recruiter, but I think I've seen enough proof that it's impossible to expect sanity from the current regime on what Legacy bans are suitable to enforce and which to ignore.
So you are saying that cards like Falling Star and Flash are unhealthy for the format while cards like Worldfire and Karakas would be good for it? Commander definitely need its own ban list.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
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"It was in a precon" is a poor argument, because Trade Secrets was in a C11 deck. Plus, Mana Crypt =/= Sol Ring. One could be banned while the other remains legal.
Lastly, let's just nix this mentality of using the Legacy ban list. They are two TOTALLY different formats. If you disagree, then please explain to me how Black Vise, Frantic Search, Gush, Memory Jar, Mental Misstep, Mind's Desire, Strip Mine, Wheel of Fortune, and Windfall are breaking games, ignoring some of the more borderline cards I could also name.
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Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
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Understandable. There is no way for you to know my skill level or if I would have made the same decisions you would, but before you just say that I'm some scrub that plays with Grizzly Bears you should check out the deck I used. It is the Azami deck in my sig.
Ok, I guess I didn't make it back in time for all the affirming the consequent fallacies.
What I said was that EDH should adopt the Legacy bans and Vintage restrictions. I didn't say that EDH should stop making its own bans in addition to those.
As for those cards banned in Legacy because of a specific deck (Frantic Search, Black Vise, Mind's Desire...), I think people should learn not to miss them. That's exactly what I mean when I advocate the Legacy banlist, that if a card is illegal or restricted in any other eternal format, the presumption should be that it's not going to be played in Casual. Instead, the presumption seems to be that Timmy gets to play with what Timmy wants, as long as it's not a 6-7 drop with an overly powerful ETB effect that people get tired of. But I have no idea who this guy is who can't play EDH without Black Vise or Frantic Search. So I have no idea why the rest of us would need to stage a debate challenging the hypothetical presumption of non-legality for Legacy banned cards if that player doesn't exist.
Case in point, we seem to disagree about Memory Jar, for one. Goblin Welder does exist in this format, but otherwise as a 1-sided wheel effect also, it's a busted card that I've had to force myself not to play. Instead of having a town hall debate about every candidate banned in Legacy that people want legal in EDH, the presumption of illegality would do everyone just fine. After all, administrative inefficiency is part of the reason the RC stopped trying to balance the format for any games other than those between 7-drop decks. It's too hard for us to find the busted cards, so the only alternative is for everyone to just police yourselves, *wink wink*, and so on.
I can certainly think of a lot of cards that are just fine, but I can't see any compelling argument for why any card banned in Legacy just NEEDS to be played in a casual format.
But you still haven't answered my question. How are the cards I listed breaking games? I mean, that's the criteria used for banning a card. So if they are so powerful that they have to get banned in Legacy, surely you can name at least one deck where Mental Misstep is a powerhouse.
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I can't really argue either way on the "interesting" argument since it's a "potayto, potahto" debate but I strongly disagree with your "unobtainable" assessment. It looks like it runs $100 - $200 dollars, it's certainly NOT in mox territory, it's more so in ABUR dual territory.
The difference between the other strategies I mentioned and fast mana is that fast mana remains incredibly format-warping even in a 1v1 setting. So banning them in 1v1 is reasonable.
On the other hand, my experience playing with many groups, all over the NE US has led me to believe that there is a large bias towards CrawWurm.deck, meaning that fast mana is somewhat less of an issue since not much happens in the early game. So I'd say that I would prefer them to remain unbanned and dealt with in a group-by-group basis.
Breaking games being the criteria, first, let me be the contrarian this time and say, no. A true RC lemming would know that "power level" is not a criteria.
Even if it were though, I guess where we lose each other is that I'm proposing a new criteria. That criteria would be that if it's on the Legacy banlist or Vintage restricted, then it's banned in EDH. That's the criteria. Ovebroad, maybe. But easy to administer.
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Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I'm pretty sure that this is demonstrably false. Metalworker was banned in Legacy in Sept. '04 during the "great Type 1/1.5 divide". It was unbanned in Legacy September '09 where it remains unbanned. It was not banned in EDH till March '09 and it remains on the banned list. There is little (if any) correlation between the two banned lists at any point and I'm fairly sure that nobody on the RC ever "took cues" from the Legacy banned list when looking at cards to ban in EDH. I think that adopting the Legacy banned list would be an expedient way to shut some people up, but that does not mean it would be the best thing for the format.