How Hoof and Prophet managed to skirt past that one is beyond me. While Sylvan Primordial can nuke lands, I have never seen it be responsible for killing the table or becoming an extremely oppressive card like Hoof and Prophet do respectively. I'll go along with the change, but I don't agree with it.
Hoof kills people if you have a good size board, how is that bannable? And killing peoples lands once would be fine, But it is rarely just once. It can be far more oppressive then hoof or prophet. I am not even sure how you can make an argument that hoof is oppressive at all. And we all knew it was coming to this.
Should have killed Navigator to stop the problem and not Sylv Prime. Oh well, I guess we get to whine and throw temper tantrums to get the next card banned instead of fixing the problems ourselves.
DEN sucks as well, but SP was its own problem with or without blue.
First of all, bravo for axing Sylvan Primordial. Completely warranted. But with that...
I think overall I agree with the banlist philosophy and nearly every single choice the rules committee has made regarding bannings, but it is completely beyond me how they continue to let Consecrated Sphinx exist. It fits nearly all the same parameters used for banning Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial, just in a different fashion. It completely warps nearly every game it's played in when not immediately removed with instant removal. It becomes the sole focal point (either by eliminating, stealing, or copying) in most games where it's played at great expense to the development of that particular game up to that point. Having two in play, which is not at all an unusual circumstance, is just as game ruining as Trade Secrets. It completely invalidates most any creature in it's class. The vast majority of people I know who play EDH hate it. Many of us continue to use it however because the decrease in deck power is just so substantial in removing it.
Happy with it. Considering the banlist is oriented towards multiplayer, it makes sense. Terastodon is a lot worst, you give your opponents creatures instead of searching for forests.
Oh and Consacrated Sphinx is indeed a good card but it can be handled. Deadeye cannot. If it resolved, it is already too late. We can't ban every card that is broken with it (Slime, Primus, etc) so I really hoped that we would see this card banned.
Hopefully it's happening in 2014. As for Consecrated Sphinx, it is definitely a good card but you can kill it and Wizards tend to make new cards dealing with extra draws.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I think the ban of this card is ludicrous. It's a fair and powerful card, it's readily available and cheap enough that everyone can get one. No one is calling for the ban of Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad or Mana Crypt, because those cards are powerful and unfair, but they are so hard to acquire that no one complains because no one really plays against them. I'm disappointed at the EDH community and council once again.
Do you honestly think a SP is fair destroying 3 lands and ramping for 3? In a 3 player game thats 6 for 1 even without a blink in the perm type most likely to come out "early". A lot of those other cards are expensive, but niche in actual use.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Do you honestly think a SP is fair destroying 3 lands and ramping for 3? In a 3 player game thats 6 for 1 even without a blink in the perm type most likely to come out "early". A lot of those other cards are expensive, but niche in actual use.
A 6-for 1 isn't really as super as it sounds when you take into account that it is multiplier, and costs 7 mana, and can only target one non-land permenent per player, making it significantly worse against a single player, while ramping into specifically a forest card, not any land.
I honestly think this is probably one of the worse bans the RC has made since the Prime Time ban. Yes, boo hoo card advantage in green, but seriously?! Their exact wording of "It meets many of the heuristic markers for a banned card, insofar as it invalidates many other creatures as search targets and causes arguments about whether its use is degenerate or reasonable."
How does it remove many other creautures as search targets? Wanting to to do half of austere command, you grab Bane of Progress. Want to end the game with damage? Craterhoof behemoth. There are tons of utility that can be grabbed with the card.
Hell, even when the RC was discussing the reason for banning Sundering Titan, pretty sure I remember someone metioning how stupid it was in combination with deadeye navigator. Are you really going to play this game with banning any creature wit an abusivable ETB ability, rather than the best blink card that is likely pushing these cards?
I mean congrats, you hit a ramp+non creature kill spell. Maybe if you just keep banning the best copied creature, people will stop trying for creature win cons. Consecrated Sphinx next?
Green never gets to keep any above meh mana accel. *shrug* At least Vorinclex is still alive and honestly I've seen more hate for him than Sylvan Primordial.
How Hoof and Prophet managed to skirt past that one is beyond me. While Sylvan Primordial can nuke lands, I have never seen it be responsible for killing the table or becoming an extremely oppressive card like Hoof and Prophet do respectively. I'll go along with the change, but I don't agree with it.
There probably are better candidates to ban but I cannot say I am unhappy to see that thing get banned. It assures ridiculous value when it resolves and I've seen those awkward situations where a player that's behind gets knocked back to the stone age. It's just a really annoying card anyway.
@bccarlso, Craterhoof Behemoth. Either running it out by itself or pairing it with an Avenger of Zendikar can sufficiently end the game. How about we just ban Deadeye Navigator and stop the problem at its source?
Also, @Igzex, I had him in the list because he was good, but most of the time I wished it was a Terastodon, so that I could choose to not hit 3 targets. That way I wouldn't be knocking someone out of the game. True story: I dropped a Sylvan Primordial because I needed to deal with stuff, and ended up taking out a guy's Sol Ring as collateral damage. He got mad and instead of assisting in solving the problem, he instead chose to Mind Twist me for 4. Promptly died to the problem next turn. So clearly some people have more of an issue with Sylvan Primordial than I do.
If Prime Time means Primeval Titan, are you really complaining about that card being banned? This is one of the most powerful card the format could have. Except if we ban all the $300+ lands and then every fetches/utility lands.
Yeah Sylvan only cares about forests, that's a start. The new GW god won't be banned you know. The problem with Sylvan is that you get so much out of one card. You talk about 1v1 but this banlist is oriented towards multiplayer games. The DC banlist will never ban this because it is strictly worse than Terastodon in 1v1. But they banned Natural Order, which is still legal in the US banlist...
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
A 6-for 1 isn't really as super as it sounds when you take into account that it is multiplier, and costs 7 mana, and can only target one non-land permenent per player, making it significantly worse against a single player, while ramping into specifically a forest card, not any land.
It is when its 3 lands and 3 lands. And its also coming out for less than 7 way too often.
I mean congrats, you hit a ramp+non creature kill spell. Maybe if you just keep banning the best copied creature, people will stop trying for creature win cons. Consecrated Sphinx next?
They took out a card that often created undesirable game states and bad games. +1 Internets to them.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
In 1v1 he already is. He is good. But does not seem totally broken in multiplayer. Just not seeing it.
It's the exact same reasons why the bann on PT and SP took so long. People are going to come around to it and get hooked. I'm going more out on a limb for this prediction, but I can see it happening.
The synergy with orb, stasis and whatnot is just too good.
I... I know I am in the vocal minority about Sylvan Primordial, but seriously? The card really wasn't as much of an issue as some others I can think of. This was a really odd decision, but... Whatever. As others have said, guess I am slotting back in Terastodon.
I... I know I am in the vocal minority about Sylvan Primordial, but seriously? The card really wasn't as much of an issue as some others I can think of. This was a really odd decision, but... Whatever. As others have said, guess I am slotting back in Terastodon.
I'm right there with you. My friend and I both agreed that we must not have gotten the full use out of Sylvan Primordial. I got way more use out of Craterhoof than I did with S Prime. I ran both Terastodon and S Prime in my list.
Hoof kills people if you have a good size board, how is that bannable? And killing peoples lands once would be fine, But it is rarely just once. It can be far more oppressive then hoof or prophet. I am not even sure how you can make an argument that hoof is oppressive at all. And we all knew it was coming to this.
DEN sucks as well, but SP was its own problem with or without blue.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I think overall I agree with the banlist philosophy and nearly every single choice the rules committee has made regarding bannings, but it is completely beyond me how they continue to let Consecrated Sphinx exist. It fits nearly all the same parameters used for banning Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial, just in a different fashion. It completely warps nearly every game it's played in when not immediately removed with instant removal. It becomes the sole focal point (either by eliminating, stealing, or copying) in most games where it's played at great expense to the development of that particular game up to that point. Having two in play, which is not at all an unusual circumstance, is just as game ruining as Trade Secrets. It completely invalidates most any creature in it's class. The vast majority of people I know who play EDH hate it. Many of us continue to use it however because the decrease in deck power is just so substantial in removing it.
Please rules committee, hear our pleas...
Oh and Consacrated Sphinx is indeed a good card but it can be handled. Deadeye cannot. If it resolved, it is already too late. We can't ban every card that is broken with it (Slime, Primus, etc) so I really hoped that we would see this card banned.
Hopefully it's happening in 2014. As for Consecrated Sphinx, it is definitely a good card but you can kill it and Wizards tend to make new cards dealing with extra draws.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
A 6-for 1 isn't really as super as it sounds when you take into account that it is multiplier, and costs 7 mana, and can only target one non-land permenent per player, making it significantly worse against a single player, while ramping into specifically a forest card, not any land.
I honestly think this is probably one of the worse bans the RC has made since the Prime Time ban. Yes, boo hoo card advantage in green, but seriously?! Their exact wording of "It meets many of the heuristic markers for a banned card, insofar as it invalidates many other creatures as search targets and causes arguments about whether its use is degenerate or reasonable."
How does it remove many other creautures as search targets? Wanting to to do half of austere command, you grab Bane of Progress. Want to end the game with damage? Craterhoof behemoth. There are tons of utility that can be grabbed with the card.
Hell, even when the RC was discussing the reason for banning Sundering Titan, pretty sure I remember someone metioning how stupid it was in combination with deadeye navigator. Are you really going to play this game with banning any creature wit an abusivable ETB ability, rather than the best blink card that is likely pushing these cards?
I mean congrats, you hit a ramp+non creature kill spell. Maybe if you just keep banning the best copied creature, people will stop trying for creature win cons. Consecrated Sphinx next?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Beast Within
Defense of the Heart
Oath of Druids
Tooth and Nail
Acidic Slime
Genesis Wave
Greater Good
Birthing Pod
Eternal Witness
Meh mana acceleration. I love playing green, but hate green's slice of the color pie. It can basically do anything.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
What is Hoof?
twitter.com/bccarlso
Craterhoof Behemoth
Also, @Igzex, I had him in the list because he was good, but most of the time I wished it was a Terastodon, so that I could choose to not hit 3 targets. That way I wouldn't be knocking someone out of the game. True story: I dropped a Sylvan Primordial because I needed to deal with stuff, and ended up taking out a guy's Sol Ring as collateral damage. He got mad and instead of assisting in solving the problem, he instead chose to Mind Twist me for 4. Promptly died to the problem next turn. So clearly some people have more of an issue with Sylvan Primordial than I do.
Yeah Sylvan only cares about forests, that's a start. The new GW god won't be banned you know. The problem with Sylvan is that you get so much out of one card. You talk about 1v1 but this banlist is oriented towards multiplayer games. The DC banlist will never ban this because it is strictly worse than Terastodon in 1v1. But they banned Natural Order, which is still legal in the US banlist...
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Only one card has been banned since then...
They took out a card that often created undesirable game states and bad games. +1 Internets to them.
Guess I'll switch to Deveri until that general gets banned.
(yes, I'm making the prediction now it's going to happen, and right now, I'm 3 for 3.)
If the ban breaks your deck I am going to go out on a limb and guess it was a troll/griefer deck.
In 1v1 he already is. He is good. But does not seem totally broken in multiplayer. Just not seeing it.
It's the exact same reasons why the bann on PT and SP took so long. People are going to come around to it and get hooked. I'm going more out on a limb for this prediction, but I can see it happening.
The synergy with orb, stasis and whatnot is just too good.
I don't know what you mean by troll deck, but yeah, the deck causes major grief if not responded to with blue magic or GY hate.
So you scoop to any GY hate? Seems like poor design.
Nice try Tantarus.
Infraction for flaming. - cryogen
Derevi is really, really strong. You will know just how strong she is when you get pushed around by a good list.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Yeah, a couple of comments in this thread are striking me as "They banned another Green card?!?! Magic/EDH/Life is RUINED FOREVER!"
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
You are the one that claims losing one card makes your deck unplayable. Seems like the Sky is Falling kinda thing.
I'm right there with you. My friend and I both agreed that we must not have gotten the full use out of Sylvan Primordial. I got way more use out of Craterhoof than I did with S Prime. I ran both Terastodon and S Prime in my list.