I want to clarify and say that I do not need a Commander to be busted to be interested in it. I do not play cEDH, only casual kitchen table with family and close friends, or at a couple LGS locations
With that in mind, every Commander set has had at least one deck I wanted to buy and improve until last year, and this appears to be more of the same.
Look, I agree with our Holistic Detective that there is potential to cycle through your deck with the Madness commander, but even that seems janky and trashy. You are still using a deck with 30+ trash spells. Madness does not have scaleable spells which get better in multiplayer. They do not have higher end spells that are only useful in late game commander. They are a collection o spells which are often not even good enough for two player 20 life duels. Moreover, when deck try to discard/loot their spells away, they do not even care about madness... they try to loot fatties to reanimate, flashback spells for value, or even load up a graveyard for something like a big Yawgmoth's Will / Past in Flames / Mizzix Mastery turn. Also, what is the deck doing when it doesn't have its commander? Even a Mizzix deck can operate without needing experience counters to reduce costs. Doesn't a madness deck fall even flatter on its face without its commander?
I was at an LGS flipping through binders and several people were joking about how terrible all four seems. Even the "good one" (flashback) seems rather janky at best.
White does nothing meaningful for flashback. So, unless they print new cards which are good, adding white makes it worse. Had it been Izzet or Grixis in colors, it could have fit in the 99 of my Mizzix deck or maybe a Kess deck. Until we see good white card with flashback, I am less than sold; I am disappointed.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Once again, if he's old, then why does he have first strike? I don't know, make him a 1/4 to show that's he's gotten old and soft. Or give him an ability that let's him tap permanents other than himself to show that he needs help to get around.
I've been playing for a long time, and it feels like they just messed the character up again. But what else should I expect?
He wasn't old though. He died in his prime, so 3/3 First Strike makes sense, just not as good as he would be as Master of Arms.
I'll probably receive a lot of hate for this, but I prefer my Gerrard cards with Phil Foglio art, like Recycle. And I actually prefer the original version, even though I have never played it.
I'll probably receive a lot of hate for this, but I prefer my Gerrard cards with Phil Foglio art, like Recycle. And I actually prefer the original version, even though I have never played it.
I would love to see Foglio art again, and there's nothing wrong with "preference".
I want to clerify and say that I do not need a Commander to be busted to be interested in it. I do not play cEDH, only casual kitchen table with family and close friends, or at a couple LGS locations
With that in mind, every Commander set has had at least one deck I wanted to buy and improve until last year, and this appaears to be more of the same.
Look, I agree with our Holistic Detective that there is potential to cycle through your deck with the Madness commander, but even that seems janky and trashy. You are still uaing a deck with 30+ trash spells. Madness does not have scaleable spells which get better in multiplayer. They do not have higher end spells that are only useful in late game commander. They are a collection o spells which are often not even good enough for two player 20 life duels. Moreover, when deck try to discard/loot their spells away, they do not even care about madness... they try to loot fatties to reanimate, flashback spells for value, or even load up a graveyard for something like a big Yawgmoth's Will / Past in Flames / Mizzix Mastery turn. Also, what is the deck doing when it doesn't have its commander? Even a Mizzix deck can operate without needing experience counters to reduce costs. Doesn't a madness deck fall even flatter on its face without its commander?
I was at an LGS flipping through binders and several people were joking about how terrible all four seems. Even the "good one" (flashback) seems rather janky at best.
Whute does nothing meaningfull for flashback. So, unless they print new cards which are good, adding white makes it worse. Had it been Izzet or Grixis in colors, it could have fi in the 99 of my Mizzix deck or maybe a Kess deck. Until we see good white card with flashback, I am less than sold; I am disapointed.
white gives you increasing devition, as well as waves of aggression, leave // chance etc. Plus the new flashback spell, and others they’ll presumably print. And all the general utility stuff like stp, good board wipes, etc. Sure it makes it harder to fit into the 99 but it’s basically pure upside as a commander.
Personally I’m sick of the kesses and animars that have to die immediately or they run away with the game, and have a low cost to boot. These face commanders actually look very fair, but good enough that I’m sure I can still crush with them at my local group. I’m so pleased to see some actual restraint in their designs, instead of designs that say “screw balance, it’s just casual. Let’s give them OP nonsense so they buy as many as possible”.
But if you really want powerful, I’m pretty sure krrrik is busted somehow.
He is. K'rrrick turn 1 win has already been solved.
I'm not sure why they printed it, it feels like a mistake. It's a really bad card.
As you mentioned it's clearly designed to move product.
You know what else has been solved? Turn 1 win without casting a commander at all.
I mean, idk, k'rrick may well be busted, but having a way to win on turn 1 doesn't really say anything useful. There's one for anje falkenrath and everyone seems to think she sucks.
And then there are commanders like Thrasios and Tymna, who are apparently the gods of cEDH right now, but people also build totally fine and fair decks with them. Just because something can be built OP in a competitive environment doesn't necessary mean it's going to be a problem for kitchen tables.
I think we'll have to see how popular and how dangerous he actually is before passing judgment. As a mono-color commander, I suspect he won't be super highly played.
Volrath, the Shapestealer is the first legend I want to make a deck of. I love cloning and counters and his ability satisfies both, except once activated you stay in that form until next turn. Even you stack the ability cleverly, once the chain is complete you stay that way. Regardless, 7/5 for five is nice too, three shots commander damage and will likely dig into Invisible Stalker
Volrath, the Shapestealer is the first legend I want to make a deck of. I love cloning and counters and his ability satisfies both, except once activated you stay in that form until next turn. Even you stack the ability cleverly, once the chain is complete you stay that way. Regardless, 7/5 for five is nice too, three shots commander damage and will likely dig into Invisible Stalker
"...and it has this ability." You can keep changing him to your heart's content.
white gives you increasing devition, as well as waves of aggression, leave // chance etc. Plus the new flashback spell, and others they’ll presumably print. And all the general utility stuff like stp, good board wipes, etc. Sure it makes it harder to fit into the 99 but it’s basically pure upside as a commander.
I am well aware of traditional white cards that a deck has access to, as well as multi-colored spells like Supreme Verdict. I thought it was quite obvious that I was referring to flashback and the "theme" of the deck.
Of the cards you listed, only one has actual Flashback which can benefit from having the commander in play, and that is Increasing Devotion. Also, I thought it was obvious by my reply, but I know how to use Scryfall to do an advance search for cards. In that search, we get:
Sure, there are likely to be more spells with white in either the casting cost or flashback cost. However, that is far from an impressive list of things to flash back. It is also hardly enough to justify building a flashback deck in a direction which differs from the established pattern. It is not as if announcing this commander has suddenly sparked thoughts of an aggressive Boros deck which splashes blue for card draw and flashback value, which is what the white flashback cards tend to favor with all of their combat tricks, combat math and token creation. Otherwise, you are playing a blue red spells deck that splashes white for no real reason, as Izzet spell decks do not need white to do their thing.
To try and avoid more confusion, I am the kind of player who looks at potential commanders and asks the following types of questions in no specific order:
What theme can I build around this?
What cards can help this commander do what it wants to do?
What kind of deck can this commander help do what it wants to do better?
I respect it when people want a generic commander vs a linear commander. My personal preference when I build and play a deck is that it has a goal and play style which makes it stand out from other decks I have built or can build. My Roon deck wants to blink stuff, but doesn't crumple without the Rhino. My Mizzix deck wants to sling spells, but with the help of Jace's Sanctum and other cost reduction effects, I can still play out my deck when people hate on my commander. My Kaalia deck (work in progress) wants to cheat Angels, Demon and dragons into play, but it also has enough support that I am not stuck with a hand of over-costed bombs either. My Nekusar deck (work in progress) is where I obviously use wheel/windfall chaos and punishment cards. My Edgar Makrov is a go-wide vampire aggro deck. My Ghoulcaler Gisa is not full zombie tribal, but rather big black with zombie swarm as a core finisher which can also cast the likes of Army of the Damned, Empty the Pits, and From Under the Floorboards to flood the table even without Gisa. One way or another, Zombies are commin' for ya'. My Breya deck is a Red Esper artifacts deck, as giving Esper access to Deretti and his toy box is a lot of fun. My wife uses Inalla for wizard tribal control and a few wizard clone combo finishing moves. My best friend has his The Ur-Dragon deck where he can put anybody and everybody on a fast clock, as Dragons can go from zero to 40+ or 10+ infect in one turn.
When I look at the decks from last year, I did not see anything worth spending my money on. There was a well known lack of valuable reprints and staples as well as boring comanders who did not do anything new or better than what has already been done before. If I wanted Esper Control, I have plenty of optionsand did not feel the need to stray from my Merieke Ri Berrit deck. My Breya deck does artifacts in four colors far better than the blue red deck did with two. The Lands deck hasn't shown my over the last year that it does anything inherently better or more interesting than my sister's Gitrog Monster deck or my Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis landfall deck. The Bant deck was the closest I came to buying one, as I do have enchanted evening and Aura thief type stuff along with enchantress cards and so forth which I originally bought for Kynaios and Tiro, but I still feel I would be better off buying the commander of the Bant deck as a single some day if I ever find it, as opposed to dropping cash on a whole deck.
However, this is not about last year, I only mention it as this year is also very lackluster yet again to me. I understand that the annual product is for beginner players as much as it is for enfranchised players. That is also why I am let down. Remember the friend with The Ur-Dragon deck I mentioned earlier? that is his first commander deck, one of his first MtG decks, and the only deck he owns right now. In previous years I would recommend other decks, but he talked abut not having the time/disposable income to invest in magic (with his wife, kids, house, etc.) Despite that, there were decks i could point out to him and my wife and say, "Try this" and feel confident that they would like it. I could not do that last year. I cannot do that this year so far. That might change with the lists revealed, but I doubt it, as the commanders themselves are uninspiring. I am waiting in part for the alternate commander to continue to be spoiled, if there are any. My wife like Inalla and is collecting cards to build a separate Kess deck. That is what a good commander product did before. It made you want to build two or three decks out of one pre-con because the staples to make each alternate commander and subtheme were polluting the core deck and let you play around with ideas even as a beginner.
(snip)
Blam, T1 win. Ban Anje plz wizards, 2OP4EDH.(snip)
I get the feeling of frustration and a bit of anger slash sarcastic anger in your reply here.
You know that I have respected your opinion over the years, but I also think you sometimes fall into the trap of bashing good cards for being good and occasionally take the hipster high road for NOT playing strong cards. At least, that is the impression I get from your writing. Espcially in your other reply when you wrote:
These face commanders actually look very fair, but good enough that I’m sure I can still crush with them at my local group. I’m so pleased to see some actual restraint in their designs, instead of designs that say “screw balance, it’s just casual. Let’s give them OP nonsense so they buy as many as possible”.
But if you really want powerful, I’m pretty sure krrrik is busted somehow.
Do you not understand the difference between a desire for power and a desire for something interesting?
Madness is not interesting. I did not play Shadows over Innistrad Standard, but to my understanding, Madness was never a good deck. I did play when Time Spiral block came out and Madness was also never a thing. Madness has never been a thing in Modern, Extended, Legacy or Vintage (at least to my knowledge). In fact, to my understanding, the only time Madness ever did anything useful in magic has been Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla, and in Time Spiral draft/sealed. The truth is that Madness cards are not good enough to have an impact in 20 life duels, which all of the creatures and damage spells are scaled to. It is even worse in a multiplayer 40 life (120+ with three opponents) format.
Morph has some half decent cards, most of which are flip tricks and some bombs like Liege of the Pit. Casting them for free and only having to pay the morph cost is interesting, as many morph creatures are help back by that pricey 3 initial investment. Forget chaining free morph spells to combo out. I am just talking kitchen table fun. Even then, are we playing that deck to do a pickles lock? Just to megamorph/manifest or what ever it was called in Khans block?
We have gone over the flashback deck already.
Regarding populate, I have to plead ignorance of what Trostani decks try to do or why they might want to "upgrade" by splashing red. It is the one deck which has my attention, if for no other reason than to be more aware of. I already have Roon, which makes similar tokens at a solid rate with the likes of Armada Wurm and friends. It would be a hard sell to have another deck with green and white that makes tokens but with less interaction than my blink deck.
So, unless something, or many somethings are shown to be exciting and/or solid reprints and staples are listed, I have a hard time seeing myself buying any of the decks or having a reason to recommend them.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Leave // chance does get an interesting boost - you get to filter twice. I mean it's not amazing but it's kind of a cool hand sculpting tool. Fair enough on waves of aggression - it's only useful with vigilance or something. Which could be kind of a fun way to go with it, idk. But it's not, like, broadly useful.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean, but I'm not aware of existing "play all the flashback/retrace/aftermath" synergy decks. Or at least none with a commander to synergize around them. Kess obviously plays as a flashback commander, but she doesn't usually run actual flashback cards, so it's a totally different set of spells (luckily there are no flashback time walks...) and a totally different angle to take on a similar concept. When you say "It is also hardly enough to justify building a flashback deck in a direction which differs from the established pattern."...what is the established pattern? Even if it's, from a broad view, a control deck, it's still going to be a control deck that plays different than others because it'll be running a lot of spells they wouldn't run, and caring about things other decks probably won't care about. Retrace in particular I think opens the window to follow a very linear gameplan around exploiting them - oona's grace for a draw-go control, Call the skybreaker for a janky wincon, reality scramble for potential combo shenanigans, throes of chaos in a similar way or just for chaotic value, or waves of aggression as mentioned with vigilance (+evasion, probably). 3 attack steps every turn is bound to add up. So idk, I think there's specific ways to build it, as well as a more generic control shell with flashback cards (which will still be different in less obvious ways).
I build a ton of decks, obv (100 different commanders built now! woot!). And even with that many, it's still kind of hard to release a new commander that catches my attention enough to want to build it right away. None of the face commanders from last year did that - but Arixmethes did. I think he's very neat. As was xantcha and varchild, but I didn't actually get around to building them. I guess I'm just saying - just because a set doesn't have commanders that make me want to build them right away, I don't see that as necessarily bad design. There's a lot of legends out there, it's hard to stand out among the rest. I'm glad they aren't printing commanders more powerful than gitfrog, frankly. I mostly like the designs of these commanders so far, but idk if I'll actually build them. I don't think "will I build this right now, rather than the thousand other options" is a very fair metric to judge new commanders on, though. Especially when we don't know all their cards. Maybe there'll be a dozen amazing madness cards that will make anje legit OP, who knows.
Personally I deeply dislike Kess and Inalla both. Kess's interaction with time magic I think makes her basically must-kill, which I don't like, and Inalla being almost totally un-interactable-with I think is a bad idea and it rubs me the wrong way. Whereas I think these commanders look fun. But that's just my opinion, I'm not arguing that there's anything objectively better about these commanders than kess or inalla. I think it's kind of strange that it seems like you do think there's something fundamentally different about these designs.
Do you not understand the difference between a desire for power and a desire for something interesting?
Of course, but I think we just diverge on what we think is interesting. Which is fine. I can definitely respect the opinion that a lot of these commanders are very straightforward to build - I daresay most kadena, anje, and to a slightly lesser extent savinne and ghired will be sharing a lot of cards. But it seems like your main dislike for them, especially anje, focuses mostly on how strong the cards they support are. "...that seems janky and trashy...30+ trash spells...Madness does not have scaleable spells which get better in multiplayer...They do not have higher end spells that are only useful in late game commander...They are a collection o spells which are often not even good enough for two player 20 life duels..." I don't know what else I would take away from those statements, except that your main complaint is that madness cards are too weak. Not too uninteresting, but too weak.
You did bring up specifically "spells which get better in multiplayer" and I actually think Anje does ok in this regard, because she gives functional flash to the spells you're casting, which can be really good in multiplayer for a lot of reasons - it makes people nervous to attack you, it lets you conceal your position more effectively, it lets you cast things at the ideal time to avoid walking into board wipes etc. Not to mention the free cantrip. And there are some spells that scale ok into the late-game - from under the floorboards comes to mind. Eot make 10+ zombies gain 10 seems ok. I mean, not amazing or anything but interesting at least. Fair enough if that doesn't appeal to you, but it appeals to me.
I don't really play standard often, but madness was just fine in innistrad limited. It's a fun mechanic that always feels like you're getting extra value, when you turn a downside like discard into an upside, especially when you can absolutely nail the timing of something and wreck someone out of nowhere. I expect I'll enjoy a similar type of gameplay with anje.
Again - I don't have a problem with you just not liking the cards, that's fine. But I think it's a little self-centered to say "Madness is not interesting." as though it was a statement of fact. Especially when your justification is that it wasn't seen in competitive constructed formats. So what? This is commander, the format where all those lost cards and mechanics that never quite worked in constructed get a chance to shine in the sun of casual multiplayer. Why should we care what worked in other formats? I happen to think madness is interesting, and I know I'm not alone.
Ghired is basically the opposite for me - it doesn't appeal to me, personally. It's not very interesting to me. But I'm definitely not going to say that it just isn't interesting, period. If that's your - or anyone else's - cup of tea, then go chase that dream.
My earlier posts were the TL:DR version, which apparently needed to be expanded upon as they seem to have been misunderstood.
The 2018 were boring.
The 2019 decks look like they are going to be boring.
I am not talking about their power level or how competitive they are.
Nothing about them seems like something I would suggest to a new player. Nothing about them appeals to me as an enfranchised player.
Just because you can win with them doesn't make them good.
Just because they are not broken doesn't make them bad. Their uninspired and boring design makes them bad.
Commander products in 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 all added something to the format. 2018 didn't add much it doesn't look like 2019 will do just as little or less.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I don't necessarily disagree, but that's just your opinion. I see a lot of jund and izzet ones at my local group, personally. And I think they did a great job on the secondary commanders.
Nothing about them seems like something I would suggest to a new player. Nothing about them appeals to me as an enfranchised player.
I'm a very enfranchised player and they do appeal to me. And I think it's fairly insane, based on a couple spoilers, to say they would be a bad suggestion for a new player. They've said they're going to put a lot of reprint value in these, so at the very least I'd think you could wait until the full decklists are revealed. I think you're letting your own biases dictate what you think is best for new players. Different people like different things, man.
Just because you can win with them doesn't make them good.
In a sense it does. If I can win consistently with a deck, I'd say that means it's probably good. t least it's good in the way I care about - I'm pretty sure most people would lose miserably playing Phelddagrif, but I'd still call it a good deck. It doesn't make the decks interesting, I'll give you that, but that's pretty subjective.
Just because they are not broken doesn't make them bad. Their uninspired and boring design makes them bad.
On what basis do you consider them "uninspired and boring"? You cited Kess as a positive example, but personally I would say she's just a less complicated (and imo less interesting) Dralnu, Lich Lord. I'm really going to need some specifics on why these particular designs are uninspired and boring before I take this as a serious point and not just another way of saying "I don't personally like these cards" in a way that attempts to sound objective.
Commander products in 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 all added something to the format. 2018 didn't add much it doesn't look like 2019 will do just as little or less.
On what basis are you making that claim? In terms of popular commanders, 2018's Aminatou, Yuriko, and Windgrace have already massively outpaced anything from 2014 on EDHrec, and locally I've seen a lot of them as well. I think 2014 was probably the least successful year by a wide margin tbh, in terms of format impact. Other years all have more popular commanders, but they've also been around for longer so it's not exactly fair - I think they're roughly on track to be about average. Maybe a little below average, but not by a lot. If you want to complain about a year having a low format impact, 2014 is far and away the biggest culprit.
And again, judging the entire set from the first spoilers. Why are you so eager to be pessimistic?
I’m just hoping that there’s a legendary Kavu in the populate deck so I can have my Kavu Commander. They made all these legends in Dominaria and gave us a Scarecrow commander, a Bear Commander, and a Ninja Commander. Why can’t they print a Kavu commander?
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I’m just hoping that there’s a legendary Kavu in the populate deck so I can have my Kavu Commander. They made all these legends in Dominaria and gave us a Scarecrow commander, a Bear Commander, and a Ninja Commander. Why can’t they print a Kavu commander?
Well Reaper King has been around for a while, in a set that was focused on tribal support with scarecrow being one of the said tribes.
Bear was kind of out of left field but not unappreciated. In fact we got a second bear commander in Horizons. (Ayula and goreclaw can be bear tribal commanders. Ayula a little more focused)
Ninjas needed a (fun and focused) commander.
Kavus are not even a real tribe, they have no synergy they are just big. I would not complain about a Kavu commander In Naya, but we don;t need one (as there are other naya commanders that offer more since kavus do no synergize with each other.
I’m just hoping that there’s a legendary Kavu in the populate deck so I can have my Kavu Commander. They made all these legends in Dominaria and gave us a Scarecrow commander, a Bear Commander, and a Ninja Commander. Why can’t they print a Kavu commander?
Well Reaper King has been around for a while, in a set that was focused on tribal support with scarecrow being one of the said tribes.
Bear was kind of out of left field but not unappreciated. In fact we got a second bear commander in Horizons. (Ayula and goreclaw can be bear tribal commanders. Ayula a little more focused)
Ninjas needed a (fun and focused) commander.
Kavus are not even a real tribe, they have no synergy they are just big. I would not complain about a Kavu commander In Naya, but we don;t need one (as there are other naya commanders that offer more since kavus do no synergize with each other.
I am stoked for Volrath.
No synergy? I’m guessing you didn’t play during the invasion block.
I’m just hoping that there’s a legendary Kavu in the populate deck so I can have my Kavu Commander. They made all these legends in Dominaria and gave us a Scarecrow commander, a Bear Commander, and a Ninja Commander. Why can’t they print a Kavu commander?
Well Reaper King has been around for a while, in a set that was focused on tribal support with scarecrow being one of the said tribes.
Bear was kind of out of left field but not unappreciated. In fact we got a second bear commander in Horizons. (Ayula and goreclaw can be bear tribal commanders. Ayula a little more focused)
Ninjas needed a (fun and focused) commander.
Kavus are not even a real tribe, they have no synergy they are just big. I would not complain about a Kavu commander In Naya, but we don;t need one (as there are other naya commanders that offer more since kavus do no synergize with each other.
I am stoked for Volrath.
No synergy? I’m guessing you didn’t play during the invasion block.
Actually i started during the invasion block. I however did not run a kavu deck nor did my friends run kavus (It was all about thorn elemental, the "ultimate" card)
I guess a kavu commander would be cool, but we are not getting it in this set.
I’m just hoping that there’s a legendary Kavu in the populate deck so I can have my Kavu Commander. They made all these legends in Dominaria and gave us a Scarecrow commander, a Bear Commander, and a Ninja Commander. Why can’t they print a Kavu commander?
Well Reaper King has been around for a while, in a set that was focused on tribal support with scarecrow being one of the said tribes.
Bear was kind of out of left field but not unappreciated. In fact we got a second bear commander in Horizons. (Ayula and goreclaw can be bear tribal commanders. Ayula a little more focused)
Ninjas needed a (fun and focused) commander.
Kavus are not even a real tribe, they have no synergy they are just big. I would not complain about a Kavu commander In Naya, but we don;t need one (as there are other naya commanders that offer more since kavus do no synergize with each other.
I am stoked for Volrath.
No synergy? I’m guessing you didn’t play during the invasion block.
Actually i started during the invasion block. I however did not run a kavu deck nor did my friends run kavus (It was all about thorn elemental, the "ultimate" card)
I guess a kavu commander would be cool, but we are not getting it in this set.
How do you know there’s not a Kavu Commander in the populate deck? Maybe it could be a creature that enters the battlefield with a Kavu token and then whenever a Kavu enters the battlefield you can populate.
For the same reason they can't print a legendary antelope, badger, camarid, deer, or elephant - because there's a million creature types and they can't make a legendary for all of them.
Also, while there is technically tribal support for kavus, it's really limited and really underwhelming in commander. You can make a fun commander around an underpowered thing, but at a certain point it's going to lose appeal to most players. How many people are actually going to want to run a bunch of mostly understatted vanilla-ish creatures for the big payoff of...kavu mauler? aggressive mammoth isn't even good, and that requires zero setup for probably a better result.
This is exactly why Morophon was printed. Go build tribal with whatever crazy thing your heart desires.
what is the established pattern? (regarding flashback)
Mystic Retrieval + Runic repetition to loop spells is one.
Discarding Lingering Souls to Collective Brutality and then still being able to use flashback to get value out of what was discarded. Deep Analysis is another example of a card which has been used this way a lot. Loot it early, flash it back later for value. Quiet Speculation combines a sort of "draw three" with a tutor and results in a 'not-so-broken' effect for 2U. Mystical Teachings for Teferi, then flash it back for Dralnu.
Cast ritual spells into a Yawgmoth's Will or Past in Flames to do it again and do something powerful like storm.
Playing mono black control and casting Chainer's Edict early to slow the aggro, then again later off of Cabal Coffers mana as you stabilize.
We can talk about power level separately, but to me, that is what has been established when flashback is brought up.
I like to think that I have an open mind, and am more than willing to be shown various of the new commander once it comes out and smarter people than myself start to brew seriously. Maybe I am all kinds of wrong and foolish. Maybe it will become of my favorite decks and will laugh at how I feel today.
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Must I really type (in my opinion/imho) in order for something to e differentiated between a "statement of fact or as though it were fact" and otherwise showing how I feel, or can that not be implied by the sentence structure and content? I thought it went without saying. It was not like I cited sources and tried to present my opinions as fact. This is literally a thread about discussing how we feel abut the new cards. It is implied by the existence of the thread.
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You talk about how much you dislike Kess and that is fine, to each their own, but that doesn't change the fact that it would have been nice to see the new "flashback" commander just in Izzet (or even better Dimir) colors as an alternate legendary in the 99, rather than as a face commander. that way it could have been thrown into Kess or Mizzix or Dralnu (depending on what two color pair it had been given with blue). Similarly, I am still disappointed that the 2017 cats deck was only green and white. It is missing red. It should have been Naya. It could have supported Wild Nacatl, Titanic Ultimatum, the Boros Ajani, Firecat Blitz, and while the red cats are bad, it could have printed new good mono=red or multicolored cats with red in them. So, yeah, this is another commander where I look at the color identity and cringe a little at the wasted potential.
But I think it's a little self-centered to say "Madness is not interesting." as though it was a statement of fact. Especially when your justification is that it wasn't seen in competitive constructed formats. So what? This is commander, the format where all those lost cards and mechanics that never quite worked in constructed get a chance to shine in the sun of casual multiplayer. Why should we care what worked in other formats? I happen to think madness is interesting, and I know I'm not alone.
Oh, stop it. Especially the empty rhetoric in bold.
We all know that this is the format where once unused and unplayable spells have become format staples, or at the very least found a home in a deck or two were they are a total gem. Decree of Pain became good because there times wen you would realistically cycle it, and games went long enough were you could hard cast it and draw a lot of cards. Weathered Wayfarer became good in a format where you can activateit in responce to fetchlands while having multiple opponents. Madness has no such cards. Nobody is going through Gatherer or Scryfall and digging up "hidden gems" like Abandon Reason or Brain Gorgers
Madness and the cards which exist today would have already found a home by now. There are plenty of quality discard outlets to fuel madness if one wanted to. It is not as if those cards were waiting for the right commander, nor is there anything about the new commander which suddenly makes them viable. There is a big difference between building a madness deck and me using From Under the Floorboards in my deck alongside the likes of Liliana of the Veil, or Falkenrath Gorger in my Edgar Markov deck because it is a one drop vampire and I can accidentally cast some vampires after resolving a Wheel of Fate.
I feel the need to repeat myself yet again when I say that Madness cards are built with traditional 20 life duels in mind, and even then, they were not good enough to make an impact. In a format where people do not even use Lightning Bolt, it is not as if a new commander is going to make Fiery Temper or Alms of the Vein any good.
Nobody is going to see you cast Psychotic Haze or Gibbering Descent and think/say, "Wow, that card is so good in that deck!" or "Wow, how did you find that tech?" Are you kidding me? What am I missing? telling me to wait for what is printed would be laughable.
What would have made Madness interesting is if the commander had had text similar to Falkenrath Gorger, except for all of your spells and/or made the cost 1BR or something else reasonable. If you could "rummage" (red loot) and cast cards which were granted madness, that would be a whole different world. It would likely end up being too good and too pushed, but at least it would not rely on a history of under-powered garbage.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
For the same reason they can't print a legendary antelope, badger, camarid, deer, or elephant - because there's a million creature types and they can't make a legendary for all of them.
Also, while there is technically tribal support for kavus, it's really limited and really underwhelming in commander. You can make a fun commander around an underpowered thing, but at a certain point it's going to lose appeal to most players. How many people are actually going to want to run a bunch of mostly understatted vanilla-ish creatures for the big payoff of...kavu mauler? aggressive mammoth isn't even good, and that requires zero setup for probably a better result.
This is exactly why Morophon was printed. Go build tribal with whatever crazy thing your heart desires.
If they can make a tribal commander for Bears, Scarecrows, and Ninjas, they can make one for Kavu. How many other creature types have 42 cards and no legendary? There are only 25 Bears, and they printed a Bear commander in a set that's twice as expensive and meant for Modern. There's only 32 Scarecrows and 22 Ninjas.
With that in mind, every Commander set has had at least one deck I wanted to buy and improve until last year, and this appears to be more of the same.
Look, I agree with our Holistic Detective that there is potential to cycle through your deck with the Madness commander, but even that seems janky and trashy. You are still using a deck with 30+ trash spells. Madness does not have scaleable spells which get better in multiplayer. They do not have higher end spells that are only useful in late game commander. They are a collection o spells which are often not even good enough for two player 20 life duels. Moreover, when deck try to discard/loot their spells away, they do not even care about madness... they try to loot fatties to reanimate, flashback spells for value, or even load up a graveyard for something like a big Yawgmoth's Will / Past in Flames / Mizzix Mastery turn. Also, what is the deck doing when it doesn't have its commander? Even a Mizzix deck can operate without needing experience counters to reduce costs. Doesn't a madness deck fall even flatter on its face without its commander?
I was at an LGS flipping through binders and several people were joking about how terrible all four seems. Even the "good one" (flashback) seems rather janky at best.
White does nothing meaningful for flashback. So, unless they print new cards which are good, adding white makes it worse. Had it been Izzet or Grixis in colors, it could have fit in the 99 of my Mizzix deck or maybe a Kess deck. Until we see good white card with flashback, I am less than sold; I am disappointed.
He wasn't old though. He died in his prime, so 3/3 First Strike makes sense, just not as good as he would be as Master of Arms.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I also see it showing up in urza decks.
I would love to see Foglio art again, and there's nothing wrong with "preference".
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Personally I’m sick of the kesses and animars that have to die immediately or they run away with the game, and have a low cost to boot. These face commanders actually look very fair, but good enough that I’m sure I can still crush with them at my local group. I’m so pleased to see some actual restraint in their designs, instead of designs that say “screw balance, it’s just casual. Let’s give them OP nonsense so they buy as many as possible”.
But if you really want powerful, I’m pretty sure krrrik is busted somehow.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm not sure why they printed it, it feels like a mistake. It's a really bad card.
As you mentioned it's clearly designed to move product.
I mean, idk, k'rrick may well be busted, but having a way to win on turn 1 doesn't really say anything useful. There's one for anje falkenrath and everyone seems to think she sucks.
Blam, T1 win. Ban Anje plz wizards, 2OP4EDH.
And then there are commanders like Thrasios and Tymna, who are apparently the gods of cEDH right now, but people also build totally fine and fair decks with them. Just because something can be built OP in a competitive environment doesn't necessary mean it's going to be a problem for kitchen tables.
I think we'll have to see how popular and how dangerous he actually is before passing judgment. As a mono-color commander, I suspect he won't be super highly played.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Damn, you're having a hard time today cyberium
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I am well aware of traditional white cards that a deck has access to, as well as multi-colored spells like Supreme Verdict. I thought it was quite obvious that I was referring to flashback and the "theme" of the deck.
Of the cards you listed, only one has actual Flashback which can benefit from having the commander in play, and that is Increasing Devotion. Also, I thought it was obvious by my reply, but I know how to use Scryfall to do an advance search for cards. In that search, we get:
Gain life, create birds, removal which doesn't matter if it were doubled, prevent 4 damage, tap some creatures, exile a creature (which also requires you to tap a bunch of your own creatures), combat math, the very card blink is named after, prevent damage which is also worthless to be copied because new targets can be made but the copy retains all modes and choices, single target graveyard hate, more combat math, disenchant plus straight from The Korova Milk Bar, a combat trick, the card you mentioned, and the spoiled card.
If you add cards which flashback with white, we also get:
Self boomerang and another combat trick
Sure, there are likely to be more spells with white in either the casting cost or flashback cost. However, that is far from an impressive list of things to flash back. It is also hardly enough to justify building a flashback deck in a direction which differs from the established pattern. It is not as if announcing this commander has suddenly sparked thoughts of an aggressive Boros deck which splashes blue for card draw and flashback value, which is what the white flashback cards tend to favor with all of their combat tricks, combat math and token creation. Otherwise, you are playing a blue red spells deck that splashes white for no real reason, as Izzet spell decks do not need white to do their thing.
To try and avoid more confusion, I am the kind of player who looks at potential commanders and asks the following types of questions in no specific order:
What theme can I build around this?
What cards can help this commander do what it wants to do?
What kind of deck can this commander help do what it wants to do better?
I respect it when people want a generic commander vs a linear commander. My personal preference when I build and play a deck is that it has a goal and play style which makes it stand out from other decks I have built or can build. My Roon deck wants to blink stuff, but doesn't crumple without the Rhino. My Mizzix deck wants to sling spells, but with the help of Jace's Sanctum and other cost reduction effects, I can still play out my deck when people hate on my commander. My Kaalia deck (work in progress) wants to cheat Angels, Demon and dragons into play, but it also has enough support that I am not stuck with a hand of over-costed bombs either. My Nekusar deck (work in progress) is where I obviously use wheel/windfall chaos and punishment cards. My Edgar Makrov is a go-wide vampire aggro deck. My Ghoulcaler Gisa is not full zombie tribal, but rather big black with zombie swarm as a core finisher which can also cast the likes of Army of the Damned, Empty the Pits, and From Under the Floorboards to flood the table even without Gisa. One way or another, Zombies are commin' for ya'. My Breya deck is a Red Esper artifacts deck, as giving Esper access to Deretti and his toy box is a lot of fun. My wife uses Inalla for wizard tribal control and a few wizard clone combo finishing moves. My best friend has his The Ur-Dragon deck where he can put anybody and everybody on a fast clock, as Dragons can go from zero to 40+ or 10+ infect in one turn.
When I look at the decks from last year, I did not see anything worth spending my money on. There was a well known lack of valuable reprints and staples as well as boring comanders who did not do anything new or better than what has already been done before. If I wanted Esper Control, I have plenty of optionsand did not feel the need to stray from my Merieke Ri Berrit deck. My Breya deck does artifacts in four colors far better than the blue red deck did with two. The Lands deck hasn't shown my over the last year that it does anything inherently better or more interesting than my sister's Gitrog Monster deck or my Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis landfall deck. The Bant deck was the closest I came to buying one, as I do have enchanted evening and Aura thief type stuff along with enchantress cards and so forth which I originally bought for Kynaios and Tiro, but I still feel I would be better off buying the commander of the Bant deck as a single some day if I ever find it, as opposed to dropping cash on a whole deck.
However, this is not about last year, I only mention it as this year is also very lackluster yet again to me. I understand that the annual product is for beginner players as much as it is for enfranchised players. That is also why I am let down. Remember the friend with The Ur-Dragon deck I mentioned earlier? that is his first commander deck, one of his first MtG decks, and the only deck he owns right now. In previous years I would recommend other decks, but he talked abut not having the time/disposable income to invest in magic (with his wife, kids, house, etc.) Despite that, there were decks i could point out to him and my wife and say, "Try this" and feel confident that they would like it. I could not do that last year. I cannot do that this year so far. That might change with the lists revealed, but I doubt it, as the commanders themselves are uninspiring. I am waiting in part for the alternate commander to continue to be spoiled, if there are any. My wife like Inalla and is collecting cards to build a separate Kess deck. That is what a good commander product did before. It made you want to build two or three decks out of one pre-con because the staples to make each alternate commander and subtheme were polluting the core deck and let you play around with ideas even as a beginner.
I get the feeling of frustration and a bit of anger slash sarcastic anger in your reply here.
You know that I have respected your opinion over the years, but I also think you sometimes fall into the trap of bashing good cards for being good and occasionally take the hipster high road for NOT playing strong cards. At least, that is the impression I get from your writing. Espcially in your other reply when you wrote:
Do you not understand the difference between a desire for power and a desire for something interesting?
Madness is not interesting. I did not play Shadows over Innistrad Standard, but to my understanding, Madness was never a good deck. I did play when Time Spiral block came out and Madness was also never a thing. Madness has never been a thing in Modern, Extended, Legacy or Vintage (at least to my knowledge). In fact, to my understanding, the only time Madness ever did anything useful in magic has been Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla, and in Time Spiral draft/sealed. The truth is that Madness cards are not good enough to have an impact in 20 life duels, which all of the creatures and damage spells are scaled to. It is even worse in a multiplayer 40 life (120+ with three opponents) format.
Morph has some half decent cards, most of which are flip tricks and some bombs like Liege of the Pit. Casting them for free and only having to pay the morph cost is interesting, as many morph creatures are help back by that pricey 3 initial investment. Forget chaining free morph spells to combo out. I am just talking kitchen table fun. Even then, are we playing that deck to do a pickles lock? Just to megamorph/manifest or what ever it was called in Khans block?
We have gone over the flashback deck already.
Regarding populate, I have to plead ignorance of what Trostani decks try to do or why they might want to "upgrade" by splashing red. It is the one deck which has my attention, if for no other reason than to be more aware of. I already have Roon, which makes similar tokens at a solid rate with the likes of Armada Wurm and friends. It would be a hard sell to have another deck with green and white that makes tokens but with less interaction than my blink deck.
So, unless something, or many somethings are shown to be exciting and/or solid reprints and staples are listed, I have a hard time seeing myself buying any of the decks or having a reason to recommend them.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean, but I'm not aware of existing "play all the flashback/retrace/aftermath" synergy decks. Or at least none with a commander to synergize around them. Kess obviously plays as a flashback commander, but she doesn't usually run actual flashback cards, so it's a totally different set of spells (luckily there are no flashback time walks...) and a totally different angle to take on a similar concept. When you say "It is also hardly enough to justify building a flashback deck in a direction which differs from the established pattern."...what is the established pattern? Even if it's, from a broad view, a control deck, it's still going to be a control deck that plays different than others because it'll be running a lot of spells they wouldn't run, and caring about things other decks probably won't care about. Retrace in particular I think opens the window to follow a very linear gameplan around exploiting them - oona's grace for a draw-go control, Call the skybreaker for a janky wincon, reality scramble for potential combo shenanigans, throes of chaos in a similar way or just for chaotic value, or waves of aggression as mentioned with vigilance (+evasion, probably). 3 attack steps every turn is bound to add up. So idk, I think there's specific ways to build it, as well as a more generic control shell with flashback cards (which will still be different in less obvious ways).
I build a ton of decks, obv (100 different commanders built now! woot!). And even with that many, it's still kind of hard to release a new commander that catches my attention enough to want to build it right away. None of the face commanders from last year did that - but Arixmethes did. I think he's very neat. As was xantcha and varchild, but I didn't actually get around to building them. I guess I'm just saying - just because a set doesn't have commanders that make me want to build them right away, I don't see that as necessarily bad design. There's a lot of legends out there, it's hard to stand out among the rest. I'm glad they aren't printing commanders more powerful than gitfrog, frankly. I mostly like the designs of these commanders so far, but idk if I'll actually build them. I don't think "will I build this right now, rather than the thousand other options" is a very fair metric to judge new commanders on, though. Especially when we don't know all their cards. Maybe there'll be a dozen amazing madness cards that will make anje legit OP, who knows.
Personally I deeply dislike Kess and Inalla both. Kess's interaction with time magic I think makes her basically must-kill, which I don't like, and Inalla being almost totally un-interactable-with I think is a bad idea and it rubs me the wrong way. Whereas I think these commanders look fun. But that's just my opinion, I'm not arguing that there's anything objectively better about these commanders than kess or inalla. I think it's kind of strange that it seems like you do think there's something fundamentally different about these designs.
Of course, but I think we just diverge on what we think is interesting. Which is fine. I can definitely respect the opinion that a lot of these commanders are very straightforward to build - I daresay most kadena, anje, and to a slightly lesser extent savinne and ghired will be sharing a lot of cards. But it seems like your main dislike for them, especially anje, focuses mostly on how strong the cards they support are. "...that seems janky and trashy...30+ trash spells...Madness does not have scaleable spells which get better in multiplayer...They do not have higher end spells that are only useful in late game commander...They are a collection o spells which are often not even good enough for two player 20 life duels..." I don't know what else I would take away from those statements, except that your main complaint is that madness cards are too weak. Not too uninteresting, but too weak.
You did bring up specifically "spells which get better in multiplayer" and I actually think Anje does ok in this regard, because she gives functional flash to the spells you're casting, which can be really good in multiplayer for a lot of reasons - it makes people nervous to attack you, it lets you conceal your position more effectively, it lets you cast things at the ideal time to avoid walking into board wipes etc. Not to mention the free cantrip. And there are some spells that scale ok into the late-game - from under the floorboards comes to mind. Eot make 10+ zombies gain 10 seems ok. I mean, not amazing or anything but interesting at least. Fair enough if that doesn't appeal to you, but it appeals to me.
I don't really play standard often, but madness was just fine in innistrad limited. It's a fun mechanic that always feels like you're getting extra value, when you turn a downside like discard into an upside, especially when you can absolutely nail the timing of something and wreck someone out of nowhere. I expect I'll enjoy a similar type of gameplay with anje.
Again - I don't have a problem with you just not liking the cards, that's fine. But I think it's a little self-centered to say "Madness is not interesting." as though it was a statement of fact. Especially when your justification is that it wasn't seen in competitive constructed formats. So what? This is commander, the format where all those lost cards and mechanics that never quite worked in constructed get a chance to shine in the sun of casual multiplayer. Why should we care what worked in other formats? I happen to think madness is interesting, and I know I'm not alone.
Ghired is basically the opposite for me - it doesn't appeal to me, personally. It's not very interesting to me. But I'm definitely not going to say that it just isn't interesting, period. If that's your - or anyone else's - cup of tea, then go chase that dream.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The 2018 were boring.
The 2019 decks look like they are going to be boring.
I am not talking about their power level or how competitive they are.
Nothing about them seems like something I would suggest to a new player. Nothing about them appeals to me as an enfranchised player.
Just because you can win with them doesn't make them good.
Just because they are not broken doesn't make them bad. Their uninspired and boring design makes them bad.
Commander products in 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 all added something to the format. 2018 didn't add much it doesn't look like 2019 will do just as little or less.
I don't necessarily disagree, but that's just your opinion. I see a lot of jund and izzet ones at my local group, personally. And I think they did a great job on the secondary commanders.
I do disagree, and that's just your opinion. Which is fine. But they are boring *to you*. They aren't objectively boring.
I don't think what you've said supports that, but ok.
I'm a very enfranchised player and they do appeal to me. And I think it's fairly insane, based on a couple spoilers, to say they would be a bad suggestion for a new player. They've said they're going to put a lot of reprint value in these, so at the very least I'd think you could wait until the full decklists are revealed. I think you're letting your own biases dictate what you think is best for new players. Different people like different things, man.
In a sense it does. If I can win consistently with a deck, I'd say that means it's probably good. t least it's good in the way I care about - I'm pretty sure most people would lose miserably playing Phelddagrif, but I'd still call it a good deck. It doesn't make the decks interesting, I'll give you that, but that's pretty subjective.
On what basis do you consider them "uninspired and boring"? You cited Kess as a positive example, but personally I would say she's just a less complicated (and imo less interesting) Dralnu, Lich Lord. I'm really going to need some specifics on why these particular designs are uninspired and boring before I take this as a serious point and not just another way of saying "I don't personally like these cards" in a way that attempts to sound objective.
On what basis are you making that claim? In terms of popular commanders, 2018's Aminatou, Yuriko, and Windgrace have already massively outpaced anything from 2014 on EDHrec, and locally I've seen a lot of them as well. I think 2014 was probably the least successful year by a wide margin tbh, in terms of format impact. Other years all have more popular commanders, but they've also been around for longer so it's not exactly fair - I think they're roughly on track to be about average. Maybe a little below average, but not by a lot. If you want to complain about a year having a low format impact, 2014 is far and away the biggest culprit.
And again, judging the entire set from the first spoilers. Why are you so eager to be pessimistic?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Bear was kind of out of left field but not unappreciated. In fact we got a second bear commander in Horizons. (Ayula and goreclaw can be bear tribal commanders. Ayula a little more focused)
Ninjas needed a (fun and focused) commander.
Kavus are not even a real tribe, they have no synergy they are just big. I would not complain about a Kavu commander In Naya, but we don;t need one (as there are other naya commanders that offer more since kavus do no synergize with each other.
I am stoked for Volrath.
No synergy? I’m guessing you didn’t play during the invasion block.
Furthermore Kavu have an enter the battlefield sub theme:
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Have you ever tried hating things? It’s frickin’ easy, man. It requires zero effort.
Actually i started during the invasion block. I however did not run a kavu deck nor did my friends run kavus (It was all about thorn elemental, the "ultimate" card)
I guess a kavu commander would be cool, but we are not getting it in this set.
How do you know there’s not a Kavu Commander in the populate deck? Maybe it could be a creature that enters the battlefield with a Kavu token and then whenever a Kavu enters the battlefield you can populate.
It doesn’t even have to be a populate card. It’s not like Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero is a flashback card, or k’rrik, son of yawgmoth is a madness card. Apex Altisaur isn’t a morph card.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Also, while there is technically tribal support for kavus, it's really limited and really underwhelming in commander. You can make a fun commander around an underpowered thing, but at a certain point it's going to lose appeal to most players. How many people are actually going to want to run a bunch of mostly understatted vanilla-ish creatures for the big payoff of...kavu mauler? aggressive mammoth isn't even good, and that requires zero setup for probably a better result.
This is exactly why Morophon was printed. Go build tribal with whatever crazy thing your heart desires.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Mystic Retrieval + Runic repetition to loop spells is one.
Discarding Lingering Souls to Collective Brutality and then still being able to use flashback to get value out of what was discarded. Deep Analysis is another example of a card which has been used this way a lot. Loot it early, flash it back later for value.
Quiet Speculation combines a sort of "draw three" with a tutor and results in a 'not-so-broken' effect for 2U.
Mystical Teachings for Teferi, then flash it back for Dralnu.
Cast ritual spells into a Yawgmoth's Will or Past in Flames to do it again and do something powerful like storm.
Playing mono black control and casting Chainer's Edict early to slow the aggro, then again later off of Cabal Coffers mana as you stabilize.
We can talk about power level separately, but to me, that is what has been established when flashback is brought up.
I like to think that I have an open mind, and am more than willing to be shown various of the new commander once it comes out and smarter people than myself start to brew seriously. Maybe I am all kinds of wrong and foolish. Maybe it will become of my favorite decks and will laugh at how I feel today.
===================================
Must I really type (in my opinion/imho) in order for something to e differentiated between a "statement of fact or as though it were fact" and otherwise showing how I feel, or can that not be implied by the sentence structure and content? I thought it went without saying. It was not like I cited sources and tried to present my opinions as fact. This is literally a thread about discussing how we feel abut the new cards. It is implied by the existence of the thread.
===================================
You talk about how much you dislike Kess and that is fine, to each their own, but that doesn't change the fact that it would have been nice to see the new "flashback" commander just in Izzet (or even better Dimir) colors as an alternate legendary in the 99, rather than as a face commander. that way it could have been thrown into Kess or Mizzix or Dralnu (depending on what two color pair it had been given with blue). Similarly, I am still disappointed that the 2017 cats deck was only green and white. It is missing red. It should have been Naya. It could have supported Wild Nacatl, Titanic Ultimatum, the Boros Ajani, Firecat Blitz, and while the red cats are bad, it could have printed new good mono=red or multicolored cats with red in them. So, yeah, this is another commander where I look at the color identity and cringe a little at the wasted potential.
Oh, stop it. Especially the empty rhetoric in bold.
We all know that this is the format where once unused and unplayable spells have become format staples, or at the very least found a home in a deck or two were they are a total gem. Decree of Pain became good because there times wen you would realistically cycle it, and games went long enough were you could hard cast it and draw a lot of cards. Weathered Wayfarer became good in a format where you can activateit in responce to fetchlands while having multiple opponents. Madness has no such cards. Nobody is going through Gatherer or Scryfall and digging up "hidden gems" like Abandon Reason or Brain Gorgers
Madness and the cards which exist today would have already found a home by now. There are plenty of quality discard outlets to fuel madness if one wanted to. It is not as if those cards were waiting for the right commander, nor is there anything about the new commander which suddenly makes them viable. There is a big difference between building a madness deck and me using From Under the Floorboards in my deck alongside the likes of Liliana of the Veil, or Falkenrath Gorger in my Edgar Markov deck because it is a one drop vampire and I can accidentally cast some vampires after resolving a Wheel of Fate.
I feel the need to repeat myself yet again when I say that Madness cards are built with traditional 20 life duels in mind, and even then, they were not good enough to make an impact. In a format where people do not even use Lightning Bolt, it is not as if a new commander is going to make Fiery Temper or Alms of the Vein any good.
Nobody is going to see you cast Psychotic Haze or Gibbering Descent and think/say, "Wow, that card is so good in that deck!" or "Wow, how did you find that tech?" Are you kidding me? What am I missing? telling me to wait for what is printed would be laughable.
What would have made Madness interesting is if the commander had had text similar to Falkenrath Gorger, except for all of your spells and/or made the cost 1BR or something else reasonable. If you could "rummage" (red loot) and cast cards which were granted madness, that would be a whole different world. It would likely end up being too good and too pushed, but at least it would not rely on a history of under-powered garbage.
If they can make a tribal commander for Bears, Scarecrows, and Ninjas, they can make one for Kavu. How many other creature types have 42 cards and no legendary? There are only 25 Bears, and they printed a Bear commander in a set that's twice as expensive and meant for Modern. There's only 32 Scarecrows and 22 Ninjas.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB