Also, even if we get Storm the Vault to flip early, the number of cards it takes for it to happen would leave an empty hand (unless you happen to have a X draw spell in hand). Though, it may be viable enough in a 60 card deck due to higher consistency.
Not necessarily true. There are a lot of artifact token makers around these days, so there is every chance you're flipping this with gas in the hand.
I'm not convinced it's a definite ban, there are still hoops to climb through. It is probably closer to justified than Itlimoc was, though.
Also, even if we get Storm the Vault to flip early, the number of cards it takes for it to happen would leave an empty hand (unless you happen to have a X draw spell in hand). Though, it may be viable enough in a 60 card deck due to higher consistency.
Yup. The color restriction is also really high. If it were just blue for instance you could possibly combine it with a lot more options but the second color being red is kind of harsh just given the commander options that it limits it to. It also takes a more dedicated board to achieve and unlike Tolrand Academy if you don't have like completely optimal it does nothing. With academy you could still have like 2-3 artifacts and it was fantastic but this one demands you get there entirely.
I really would caution anyone from running out and pre ordering this because I feel this card is probably going to be over hyped assuming it has any price tag at all attached. If the card costs more than $1-2 then you are probably paying too much for it.
You are grossly underselling this card.
I don't know a single deck in my meta that doesn't run 12-18 mana rocks in a 3-color deck. Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, 3 signets, mind stone, hedron archive, gilded lotus, thran dynamo, and insert your favorite 2-3 mana rocks here. That's not even included Jitte, Top, Scroll Rack, or other utility artifacts. With blue's artifact tutoring ability (which most decks run anyway, even if it is just to get the big three or top), flipping the card should be fairly simple. Turn 8? Yeah no. Turn 4 flips will be effortlessly easy, Turn 5 should be a given.
It will be a $7-9 card when all is said and done, and for good reason.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I don't know a single deck in my meta that doesn't run 12-18 mana rocks in a 3-color deck. Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, 3 signets, mind stone, hedron archive, gilded lotus, thran dynamo, and insert your favorite 2-3 mana rocks here. That's not even included Jitte, Top, Scroll Rack, or other utility artifacts. With blue's artifact tutoring ability (which most decks run anyway, even if it is just to get the big three or top), flipping the card should be fairly simple. Turn 8? Yeah no. Turn 4 flips will be effortlessly easy, Turn 5 should be a given.
It will be a $7-9 card when all is said and done, and for good reason.
1) it depends on how many 3 color decks you are playing. I don't play many of them myself. Two of my 7 are three color and one has green in it and thus I use green ramp. The other is mardu and I run low curve rather than trying to ramp.
2) UR is still restrictive in colors.
3) I..... actually don't know any 3 color decks that run that many mana stones. I see a lot more 3 color decks that happen to fall into green and thus use green ramp. I also dont play in MLD metas though or combo focused metas so... I guess there is that too.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
That seems like a lot of mana rocks...you guys need some green decks.
if you are playing green with new academy, you fall into temur. If you are running 4 color you have two more options and finally you have 5 color. You have four different color combinations in order to get r/u/g. I play 2 five color decks and both do not use green ramp. (Granted my dragon deck is bloody fast. Being able to poop out draco as early as turn 2 with god hand and turn 4 or 5 on average.)
Ick, Immortal Sun looks like another really boring EDH staple. At least Caged Sun paid you off for building mono-colored, which is a significant restriction. Immortal sun only cares that you're playing a fair deck and that's about it. Even if you have no creatures it's still a very strong card.
I don't know a single deck in my meta that doesn't run 12-18 mana rocks in a 3-color deck. Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, 3 signets, mind stone, hedron archive, gilded lotus, thran dynamo, and insert your favorite 2-3 mana rocks here. That's not even included Jitte, Top, Scroll Rack, or other utility artifacts. With blue's artifact tutoring ability (which most decks run anyway, even if it is just to get the big three or top), flipping the card should be fairly simple. Turn 8? Yeah no. Turn 4 flips will be effortlessly easy, Turn 5 should be a given.
It will be a $7-9 card when all is said and done, and for good reason.
1) it depends on how many 3 color decks you are playing. I don't play many of them myself. Two of my 7 are three color and one has green in it and thus I use green ramp. The other is mardu and I run low curve rather than trying to ramp.
2) UR is still restrictive in colors.
3) I..... actually don't know any 3 color decks that run that many mana stones. I see a lot more 3 color decks that happen to fall into green and thus use green ramp. I also dont play in MLD metas though or combo focused metas so... I guess there is that too.
U/R is restrictive, but it's also the two color that play best with artifacts. Grixis machines will happily use this, as will Breya, and the different partner groups.
I see a ton of mana rocks in all decks because there seems to be a gentleman's agreement that people won't run Armageddon/Obliterate/etc as long as the green players are reasonable about their land ramp.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Ick, Immortal Sun looks like another really boring EDH staple. At least Caged Sun paid you off for building mono-colored, which is a significant restriction. Immortal sun only cares that you're playing a fair deck and that's about it. Even if you have no creatures it's still a very strong card.
It is still a 6 cost artifact that is value over time. There are so many artifact / enchantments that fall into this category especially mana doublers where the question is how long will it live on average and what is the expected value generation.
I like a lot of what The Immortal Sun does but it might draw attention to itself due to all the things it does and that might make it live less long. It in a lot of ways is similar to Staff of Nin which actually does not see that much play. Its possible its better than that but its also possible it draws more hate and lives less long so I think its a fine card with a lot of angles that might allow it to be played but its still value over time and susceptible to how quickly it dies dictating how good it will be.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Storm the Vault looks like it may make the cut in Grixis Storm...it could be used as a ritual effect on your combo turn since it already plays some things like Frantic Search and Time Spiral for even more broken synergy. The deck would love to have access to a massive amount of blue mana at that point as well.
So are we just going to ignore the fact that Tolarian Academy is easy to tutor for as well? It’s also pretty difficult to get rid of before it gets out of hand. Not a chance Storm the Vault hits that level, and it won’t hit ban level either. 6 opening hand cards to get Tolarian Academy for turn 2, are we seriously having this discussion?
So are we just going to ignore the fact that Tolarian Academy is easy to tutor for as well? It’s also pretty difficult to get rid of before it gets out of hand. Not a chance Storm the Vault hits that level, and it won’t hit ban level either. 6 opening hand cards to get Tolarian Academy for turn 2, are we seriously having this discussion?
the amount of cards tbat search for non basic lands are not as potent as cards that tutor enchantments. (Gra ted you could claim black tutors do but black tutors can search for either card so it counteracts both.
So are we just going to ignore the fact that Tolarian Academy is easy to tutor for as well? It’s also pretty difficult to get rid of before it gets out of hand. Not a chance Storm the Vault hits that level, and it won’t hit ban level either. 6 opening hand cards to get Tolarian Academy for turn 2, are we seriously having this discussion?
the amount of cards tbat search for non basic lands are not as potent as cards that tutor enchantments. (Gra ted you could claim black tutors do but black tutors can search for either card so it counteracts both.
Well, in the same colors as Tolarian Academy is Tolaria West, one of the more potent land tutors since it can only be countered by Stifle effects (also grabs Pact of Negation and some other shenanigan spells).
So are we just going to ignore the fact that Tolarian Academy is easy to tutor for as well? It’s also pretty difficult to get rid of before it gets out of hand. Not a chance Storm the Vault hits that level, and it won’t hit ban level either. 6 opening hand cards to get Tolarian Academy for turn 2, are we seriously having this discussion?
the amount of cards tbat search for non basic lands are not as potent as cards that tutor enchantments. (Gra ted you could claim black tutors do but black tutors can search for either card so it counteracts both.
If you are tutoring for TA, you are probably playing it and profiting right away, you aren’t with StV. These 2 are nowhere near each other in terms of power level. This won’t be banned, the only way that I’ll change my mind is if it is banned, and at that point you had better be taking a long hard look at Gaeas Cradle and the other burst lands.
So are we just going to ignore the fact that Tolarian Academy is easy to tutor for as well? It’s also pretty difficult to get rid of before it gets out of hand. Not a chance Storm the Vault hits that level, and it won’t hit ban level either. 6 opening hand cards to get Tolarian Academy for turn 2, are we seriously having this discussion?
the amount of cards tbat search for non basic lands are not as potent as cards that tutor enchantments. (Gra ted you could claim black tutors do but black tutors can search for either card so it counteracts both.
If you are tutoring for TA, you are probably playing it and profiting right away, you aren’t with StV. These 2 are nowhere near each other in terms of power level. This won’t be banned, the only way that I’ll change my mind is if it is banned, and at that point you had better be taking a long hard look at Gaeas Cradle and the other burst lands.
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If they do ban Storm the Vaults, they obviously are discriminating against blue. I have seen Gaea's cradle (On multiple occasions) tap for more than 20 mana. Cabal coffers, I see it tap for 12 mana more often than I would like. (And while red does not have a land that does that, neheb is a very nasty deck)
Even white has their lands, which, in the long run, (Unless you are playing an Enchantress deck.)
I mean I don't want them to ban all the burst lands, but it sees unfair that they allow three of them to remain and get rid of Blue's.
No, it's not unfair. Tolarian Academy goes stupid much, MUCH faster than Coffers, Cradle or Sanctum due to how artifacts work. Which is exactly why this thing - which produces artifacts to begin with - is met with caution.
It probably won't be banned, but some caution doesn't hurt.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
That seems like a lot of mana rocks...you guys need some green decks.
if you are playing green with new academy, you fall into temur. If you are running 4 color you have two more options and finally you have 5 color. You have four different color combinations in order to get r/u/g. I play 2 five color decks and both do not use green ramp. (Granted my dragon deck is bloody fast. Being able to poop out draco as early as turn 2 with god hand and turn 4 or 5 on average.)
If every deck runs that many rocks, they must not be green. Green decks run fewer rocks because they can ramp. Make sense?
I'm sad that Teztimoc can't be put into Gishath. It's a fantastic dinosaur that works both if cheated with Gishath or if it is in your hand from turn 1. Exactly what a Gishath deck need. Sigh.
I'm not seeing how it works if cheated in with Gishath? Sure, the etb ability doesn't have a "from your hand" clause, but it also won't do anything if you don't have Prey Counters out, and those require him to have been in your hand.
I'm not seeing how it works if cheated in with Gishath? Sure, the etb ability doesn't have a "from your hand" clause, but it also won't do anything if you don't have Prey Counters out, and those require him to have been in your hand.
Tetzimoc, Primal Death is still a 6/6 deathtoucher. I run the 9/9 for 8 mana and the 6/6 for 6 trampler vanilla dinosaurs just because they are solid. So yes if it gets cheated out it will miss it's full value, but having a bunch of bodies is a big deal in my Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck and having enough dinosaurs throughout the deck is very important as I run quite a few and often miss when using Gishath's trigger. So I completely understand @ilovesaprolings's pain.
I'm not seeing how it works if cheated in with Gishath? Sure, the etb ability doesn't have a "from your hand" clause, but it also won't do anything if you don't have Prey Counters out, and those require him to have been in your hand.
It's still a nice body, kinda big and with deathtouch.
Take imperial aerosaur. It's wonderful to have it in your hand, but it's terrible to flip it with Gishath.
Then take ancient brontodon. Even if it's just a vanilla, it's nice to get a free 9/9, but it's terrible if it sits in your hand from turn 1.
Tetzimoc doesn't have these problems.
EDIT: Tryno understood perfectly
I guess it's just a matter of differing evaluations, then. I'm not a huge fan of an otherwise vanilla 6/6 deathtoucher (or a 9/9 vanilla, for that matter, free or not), and would probably value a 2/3 flyer with a relevant ability over it anyday.
Those 'walkers are....actually not as horrible as you would expect for PW deck ones. They're not anything remotely amazing, but they're getting at least close to being playable.
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(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Not necessarily true. There are a lot of artifact token makers around these days, so there is every chance you're flipping this with gas in the hand.
I'm not convinced it's a definite ban, there are still hoops to climb through. It is probably closer to justified than Itlimoc was, though.
You are grossly underselling this card.
I don't know a single deck in my meta that doesn't run 12-18 mana rocks in a 3-color deck. Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, 3 signets, mind stone, hedron archive, gilded lotus, thran dynamo, and insert your favorite 2-3 mana rocks here. That's not even included Jitte, Top, Scroll Rack, or other utility artifacts. With blue's artifact tutoring ability (which most decks run anyway, even if it is just to get the big three or top), flipping the card should be fairly simple. Turn 8? Yeah no. Turn 4 flips will be effortlessly easy, Turn 5 should be a given.
It will be a $7-9 card when all is said and done, and for good reason.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
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1) it depends on how many 3 color decks you are playing. I don't play many of them myself. Two of my 7 are three color and one has green in it and thus I use green ramp. The other is mardu and I run low curve rather than trying to ramp.
2) UR is still restrictive in colors.
3) I..... actually don't know any 3 color decks that run that many mana stones. I see a lot more 3 color decks that happen to fall into green and thus use green ramp. I also dont play in MLD metas though or combo focused metas so... I guess there is that too.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
U/R is restrictive, but it's also the two color that play best with artifacts. Grixis machines will happily use this, as will Breya, and the different partner groups.
I see a ton of mana rocks in all decks because there seems to be a gentleman's agreement that people won't run Armageddon/Obliterate/etc as long as the green players are reasonable about their land ramp.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
It is still a 6 cost artifact that is value over time. There are so many artifact / enchantments that fall into this category especially mana doublers where the question is how long will it live on average and what is the expected value generation.
I like a lot of what The Immortal Sun does but it might draw attention to itself due to all the things it does and that might make it live less long. It in a lot of ways is similar to Staff of Nin which actually does not see that much play. Its possible its better than that but its also possible it draws more hate and lives less long so I think its a fine card with a lot of angles that might allow it to be played but its still value over time and susceptible to how quickly it dies dictating how good it will be.
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UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
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Well, in the same colors as Tolarian Academy is Tolaria West, one of the more potent land tutors since it can only be countered by Stifle effects (also grabs Pact of Negation and some other shenanigan spells).
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
If you are tutoring for TA, you are probably playing it and profiting right away, you aren’t with StV. These 2 are nowhere near each other in terms of power level. This won’t be banned, the only way that I’ll change my mind is if it is banned, and at that point you had better be taking a long hard look at Gaeas Cradle and the other burst lands.
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If they do ban Storm the Vaults, they obviously are discriminating against blue. I have seen Gaea's cradle (On multiple occasions) tap for more than 20 mana. Cabal coffers, I see it tap for 12 mana more often than I would like. (And while red does not have a land that does that, neheb is a very nasty deck)
Even white has their lands, which, in the long run, (Unless you are playing an Enchantress deck.)
I mean I don't want them to ban all the burst lands, but it sees unfair that they allow three of them to remain and get rid of Blue's.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
It probably won't be banned, but some caution doesn't hurt.
If every deck runs that many rocks, they must not be green. Green decks run fewer rocks because they can ramp. Make sense?
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Tetzimoc, Primal Death is still a 6/6 deathtoucher. I run the 9/9 for 8 mana and the 6/6 for 6 trampler vanilla dinosaurs just because they are solid. So yes if it gets cheated out it will miss it's full value, but having a bunch of bodies is a big deal in my Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck and having enough dinosaurs throughout the deck is very important as I run quite a few and often miss when using Gishath's trigger. So I completely understand @ilovesaprolings's pain.
Current EDH
Akroma W | Tymna and Bruse RBW