I would guess that this will be very closely watched by the RC. Stupendously easy to flip, providing disgusting amounts of mana in decks that already go nuts. Great card.
I would guess that this will be very closely watched by the RC. Stupendously easy to flip, providing disgusting amounts of mana in decks that already go nuts. Great card.
it's gonna be banned. Why would they ban acadmey and not a card that is just as good if not better (With the painless city of brass ability)
I would guess that this will be very closely watched by the RC. Stupendously easy to flip, providing disgusting amounts of mana in decks that already go nuts. Great card.
it's gonna be banned. Why would they ban acadmey and not a card that is just as good if not better (With the painless city of brass ability)
I won't presume to know for a fact that it will be, but I would be surprised if it weren't.
I would guess that this will be very closely watched by the RC. Stupendously easy to flip, providing disgusting amounts of mana in decks that already go nuts. Great card.
it's gonna be banned. Why would they ban acadmey and not a card that is just as good if not better (With the painless city of brass ability)
Because one costs 0 mana, and one costs 4 (and has a non-negligible requirement of having 5 artifacts). That's like saying "why would they ban Black Lotus and not a card that's just as good if not better", while ignoring the five mana cost difference, which is kinda huge.
Sure, but howeasyisit to get five artifacts on the field by the time you cast this? Even if you somehow miraculously don't its front side has some pros before it flips.
The only thing that warns me off saying it'll definitely get banned is that its two colours. If it were blue only, it'd be a slam dunk. As it is, there is only one known deck archetype that will definitely want it, and that's Breya or a partner artifact build. Maybe a marchesa artifact build, but that's pretty bespoke.
Sure, but howeasyisit to get five artifacts on the field by the time you cast this? Even if you somehow miraculously don't its front side has some pros before it flips.
The only thing that warns me off saying it'll definitely get banned is that its two colours. If it were blue only, it'd be a slam dunk. As it is, there is only one known deck archetype that will definitely want it, and that's Breya or a partner artifact build. Maybe a marchesa artifact build, but that's pretty bespoke.
I think we can expect that there will be a UR Artificer printed *eventually*, given how much it's been clamored for. I've also built several iterations of Grixis Artifacts (Mishra Stax, Marchesa Arcbound), as well as a Shu-Yun Jeskai Artifacts list. So there's definitely places it'd shine.
Heck, I think the ability to tap for multiple blue mana on a single land makes this worth building a little towards in most UR builds.
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it's gonna be banned. Why would they ban acadmey and not a card that is just as good if not better (With the painless city of brass ability)
Because it really isn't?
Academy is stupid broken because you can play it as a land drop, which means it comes online sooner, and can start powering stupid stuff by turns 2 or 3.
The RC has shown that they don't care about big mana - Cradle, Coffers, and Nykthos prove as such, and the NewCradle has proven that putting a mana cost on a land does a whole heck of a lot at dropping its power down.
Will this new land be strong? Yes. But coming online after investing 4 mana (assuming you've already got 5 artifacts out, or a combination of artifacts and creatures that can punch through for gold...), and then flipping at the End of Turn, meaning your opponents have a full turn cycle to deal with it before you do anything really stupid, means it won't be as crazy as Academy.
Don't get me wrong, I'll be buying a bunch and jamming them into all sorts of decks - but it's not anywhere close to better than academy.
I think we can expect that there will be a UR Artificer printed *eventually*, given how much it's been clamored for. I've also built several iterations of Grixis Artifacts (Mishra Stax, Marchesa Arcbound), as well as a Shu-Yun Jeskai Artifacts list. So there's definitely places it'd shine.
Heck, I think the ability to tap for multiple blue mana on a single land makes this worth building a little towards in most UR builds.
Shine... Yes. Broken? No.
I love me some artifact decks, and I love me some blue red. I'm excited for this land. But seeing that it comes online after turn 3-4. Needs some creatures to generate gold with. Then flips into a land that does cool stuff... I don't think calling for preemptive banning is necessary.
Again, NewCradle shows us how much power drops when you put a mana cost on it.
Tetzimoc, Death Incarnated - its too bad they designed him in such a way that he is a legend but you really don't want to play him as your commander. I guess you could rez him to hand and use him like that but man.... its kind of too bad. I would rate this to be a 1/5 star card.
Storm the Vault - honestly.... it looks weak if you ask me. UR is terrible at connecting with damage. There are a few commanders who can use this but I would say its not something that is inherently going to work all that well for UR decks. Its going to take time for a lot of them to get the treasures to flip it and between being a 4 mana enchantment and taking time for most to flip it..... I actually don't think this is actually very good. It does fit some commanders like The Locust God but honestly, if you have stuck your commander and made a bunch of tokens, I think its actually a little bit winmore already at that point not to mention there is the question of how late it is that you are getting it online anyways. I would rate this to be a 2/5 star card.
The Immortal Sun - really the first jump to for comparison for me is Staff of Nin. Both of these cards draw at the same rate but instead of having a small utility / token poke you have a slew of abilities.
"Players can't activate Loyalty abilities of Planeswalkers." - this is a really nice pickup as it kicks in immediately. The downside is that it gives people a reason to remove this card as then they get their walkers back. Commander is a format where planeswalkers dont tend to live all that long so really I expect most players to play walkers for the value of them in that turn expecting them to die quickly, or play big mana planeswalkers that do board clears and kind of defend themselves, or be a dedicated planeswalker deck built to defend and abuse walkers. I think this card is more relivant against the second and third style of planeswalkers.
"At the beginning of your draw step, draw an additional card." - this is primarily what people play Staff of Nin for assuming they consider it. So for the same mana and having the same ability I am cool with this.
"Spells you cast cost 1 less to cast." - this is very interesting to me because there are not that many global cost reduction effects out there. Cost reduction tends to work more with decks that have good draw already or that utilize buyback spells with big pools of mana. Given this artifact also gives draw I think this might be useful with buyback spell based decks more than it would be with decks that chain spells but its possible it could be useful for either or both. Cost reduction can also help chain a second or third spell in the turn you play this depending on what turns and what kind of things your deck plays.
"Creatures you control get +1/+1." - sweet an anthem. Obviously it tends to be stronger for swarm based decks.
Really I do like all of the elements that The Immortal Sun brings to the table. Personally I feel that the combination of abilities they put on this are stronger than Staff of Nin but I think in a lot of cases decks where you would at least put thought into if Staff of Nin is a playable card are going to be the same decks you consider The Immortal Sun. The card draw + planeswalker hate + anthem could all be useful for voltron based decks where giving up attacks to attack a planeswalker is really unfortunate could be really nice together. The mana cost reduction is probably the hardest one for me to validate on this card because of how much it costs to cast it doesn't tend to play well with cost reduction cards (usually you want the cost reducer to be cheap as well). I would rate this card 3/5 stars.
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Storm the Vault - honestly.... it looks weak if you ask me. UR is terrible at connecting with damage. There are a few commanders who can use this but I would say its not something that is inherently going to work all that well for UR decks. Its going to take time for a lot of them to get the treasures to flip it and between being a 4 mana enchantment and taking time for most to flip it..... I actually don't think this is actually very good. It does fit some commanders like The Locust God but honestly, if you have stuck your commander and made a bunch of tokens, I think its actually a little bit winmore already at that point not to mention there is the question of how late it is that you are getting it online anyways. I would rate this to be a 2/5 star card.
It can go into any deck utilizing UR, such as Grixis or Temur, and the requirement is any five artifact, not just treasure, hence you don't even need combat to flip it.
That said, I am not sure if I would pay four mana upfront and prepare artifacts onboard for a stronger Tolarian Academy. Breya is the best candidate here because she can satisfy most of the condition anytime you cast her, and her deck is filled with cheap artifacts, but by the time you have this card in hand and the condition met it's usually too late, and I don't see myself tutor for it either.
It can go into any deck utilizing UR, such as Grixis or Temur, and the requirement is any five artifact, not just treasure, hence you don't even need combat to flip it.
That said, I am not sure if I would pay four mana upfront and prepare artifacts onboard for a stronger Tolarian Academy. Breya is the best candidate here because she can satisfy most of the condition anytime you cast her, and her deck is filled with cheap artifacts, but by the time you have this card in hand and the condition met it's usually too late, and I don't see myself tutor for it either.
The only reasons that Tolarian Academy is banned is because of what it can do in the first few turns. I think people completely over hyped Growing Rites of Itlimoc and I think this card is really about the same if not possibly slightly worse than Growing Rites of Itlimoc. Adding a 4 mana cost and then putting what is kind of a heavy handed flip condition means that this card is going to be EXTREMELY hard pressed to be flipping in the early turns.
I am just saying, I really wouldn't get my hopes up for this one. If you are fine with it getting flipped by turn 8+ then sure I guess its ok but it really does not put it anywhere near Tolarian Academy. Having 5 artifacts plus 2UR on turn 4 or sooner seems incredibly unlikely if you ask me.
If it sees any play, I suspect it will be incredibly niche. Breya, Etherium Shaper might play the card but finding a commander or two that the card is playable for is not really marks for considering a card to be strong.
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The only reasons that Tolarian Academy is banned is because of what it can do in the first few turns. I think people completely over hyped Growing Rites of Itlimoc and I think this card is really about the same if not possibly slightly worse than Growing Rites of Itlimoc. Adding a 4 mana cost and then putting what is kind of a heavy handed flip condition means that this card is going to be EXTREMELY hard pressed to be flipping in the early turns.
I am just saying, I really wouldn't get my hopes up for this one. If you are fine with it getting flipped by turn 8+ then sure I guess its ok but it really does not put it anywhere near Tolarian Academy. Having 5 artifacts plus 2UR on turn 4 or sooner seems incredibly unlikely if you ask me.
If it sees any play, I suspect it will be incredibly niche. Breya, Etherium Shaper might play the card but finding a commander or two that the card is playable for is not really marks for considering a card to be strong.
I dunno, it doesn't seem that hard to manage 5 artifacts fairly early in the game - which is why Academy is so busted.
The only reasons that Tolarian Academy is banned is because of what it can do in the first few turns. I think people completely over hyped Growing Rites of Itlimoc and I think this card is really about the same if not possibly slightly worse than Growing Rites of Itlimoc. Adding a 4 mana cost and then putting what is kind of a heavy handed flip condition means that this card is going to be EXTREMELY hard pressed to be flipping in the early turns.
I am just saying, I really wouldn't get my hopes up for this one. If you are fine with it getting flipped by turn 8+ then sure I guess its ok but it really does not put it anywhere near Tolarian Academy. Having 5 artifacts plus 2UR on turn 4 or sooner seems incredibly unlikely if you ask me.
If it sees any play, I suspect it will be incredibly niche. Breya, Etherium Shaper might play the card but finding a commander or two that the card is playable for is not really marks for considering a card to be strong.
I dunno, it doesn't seem that hard to manage 5 artifacts fairly early in the game - which is why Academy is so busted.
But even in that christmasland scenario, you're not untapping with it until turn 3. Given the ability to pick 6 specific cards, any deck with green could easily have that much mana or more by then. The difference for Academy is that it can start working as soon as turn one.
I can figure out ways to play T1 Kozielk too but dream boat dreams of how to do it are not useful. How many games would be completely sick already if you had 3 mana stones including Sol Ring start anyways? Assuming you hit 2/3 of the artifact lands in your first two turns is also dreaming.
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Sure, sure. I'm just saying the claim that you won't get it running until like "turn eight" seems really disingenuous. Just playing one artifact per turn gets it there by turn five. If one of your earlier turns is an artifact creature, it can swing and get in an additional artifact from the treasure token. And there are a fair number of ways to generate artifact tokens of some type or another on the cheap, in addition to the fact that ramp artifacts beget ramp artifacts.
The kind of hands that make Academy disgusting are going to be the same kind of hands that will flip this quickly and make a ton of mana out of it. The restricted color requirements and the fact that four mana is not insignificant (plus needing to wait a turn to cast anything at sorcery speed off of it) are the big things keeping this in check, but it's effectively going to be Academy whenever Academy would be at its best.
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Sure, sure. I'm just saying the claim that you won't get it running until like "turn eight" seems really disingenuous. Just playing one artifact per turn gets it there by turn five. If one of your earlier turns is an artifact creature, it can swing and get in an additional artifact from the treasure token. And there are a fair number of ways to generate artifact tokens of some type or another on the cheap, in addition to the fact that ramp artifacts beget ramp artifacts.
The kind of hands that make Academy disgusting are going to be the same kind of hands that will flip this quickly and make a ton of mana out of it. The restricted color requirements and the fact that four mana is not insignificant (plus needing to wait a turn to cast anything at sorcery speed off of it) are the big things keeping this in check, but it's effectively going to be Academy whenever Academy would be at its best.
You still need a number of things to make the new one work where as Tolrand Academy works off of much less.
You need to hit 2UR mana.
You need to get the card in your early game.
You need 5 artifacts.
With Tolrand Academy you could have 2-3 artifacts and the card is still really bonkers. You might also not have as many lands / mana rocks in your deck and still academy can carry you. This new one you kind of specifically need mana rocks so you can get up to mana and you need more of them sooner to go active. I think this comparison really is like 90% the same argument as the differences between Gaea's Cradle and Growing Rites of Itlimoc.
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You still need a number of things to make the new one work where as Tolrand Academy works off of much less.
You need to hit 2UR mana.
You need to get the card in your early game.
You need 5 artifacts.
With Tolrand Academy you could have 2-3 artifacts and the card is still really bonkers. You might also not have as many lands / mana rocks in your deck and still academy can carry you. This new one you kind of specifically need mana rocks so you can get up to mana and you need more of them sooner to go active. I think this comparison really is like 90% the same argument as the differences between Gaea's Cradle and Growing Rites of Itlimoc.
Also, even if we get Storm the Vault to flip early, the number of cards it takes for it to happen would leave an empty hand (unless you happen to have a X draw spell in hand). Though, it may be viable enough in a 60 card deck due to higher consistency.
Also, even if we get Storm the Vault to flip early, the number of cards it takes for it to happen would leave an empty hand (unless you happen to have a X draw spell in hand). Though, it may be viable enough in a 60 card deck due to higher consistency.
Yup. The color restriction is also really high. If it were just blue for instance you could possibly combine it with a lot more options but the second color being red is kind of harsh just given the commander options that it limits it to. It also takes a more dedicated board to achieve and unlike Tolrand Academy if you don't have like completely optimal it does nothing. With academy you could still have like 2-3 artifacts and it was fantastic but this one demands you get there entirely.
I really would caution anyone from running out and pre ordering this because I feel this card is probably going to be over hyped assuming it has any price tag at all attached. If the card costs more than $1-2 then you are probably paying too much for it.
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As for the card. 2RU is not gonna be enough to make it fair. It generate its own artifacts and it is too easy to get out 5 artifacts before playing it. Tolarian academy is a turn 1, tap for nothing, turn 2, play a land, play an artifact tap for 1. (Tolarian is a land and counts as your land drop)
Sure you can get more mana out as you continue to play artifacts but at the same time, EDH has a lot of mas removal. One vandalblaast an that OP academy is dead weight. there is enough removal in this game for an academy to mean nothing. Cradle is extremely easy to abuse. But obviously the RC favors green players and hates blue players.
Sure strip mine can kill Cradle and coffers, but it can also kill academy. (Anything that remove lands hits academy as well, so why are green and black players allowed to have the massive mana producing lands?)
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StaffYou do realize its first mana ability taps for mana of any color, yes?
It's both a painless City of Brass AND a Tolarian Academy.
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It seems solid for UR artifact decks.
Combos with lots of things, such as Deserted Temple/Minamo, School at Water's Edge and Rings of Brighthearth.
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tolarian academy but budget and edh legal.
I would guess that this will be very closely watched by the RC. Stupendously easy to flip, providing disgusting amounts of mana in decks that already go nuts. Great card.
it's gonna be banned. Why would they ban acadmey and not a card that is just as good if not better (With the painless city of brass ability)
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I won't presume to know for a fact that it will be, but I would be surprised if it weren't.
The only thing that warns me off saying it'll definitely get banned is that its two colours. If it were blue only, it'd be a slam dunk. As it is, there is only one known deck archetype that will definitely want it, and that's Breya or a partner artifact build. Maybe a marchesa artifact build, but that's pretty bespoke.
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StaffI think we can expect that there will be a UR Artificer printed *eventually*, given how much it's been clamored for. I've also built several iterations of Grixis Artifacts (Mishra Stax, Marchesa Arcbound), as well as a Shu-Yun Jeskai Artifacts list. So there's definitely places it'd shine.
Heck, I think the ability to tap for multiple blue mana on a single land makes this worth building a little towards in most UR builds.
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StaffBecause it really isn't?
Academy is stupid broken because you can play it as a land drop, which means it comes online sooner, and can start powering stupid stuff by turns 2 or 3.
The RC has shown that they don't care about big mana - Cradle, Coffers, and Nykthos prove as such, and the NewCradle has proven that putting a mana cost on a land does a whole heck of a lot at dropping its power down.
Will this new land be strong? Yes. But coming online after investing 4 mana (assuming you've already got 5 artifacts out, or a combination of artifacts and creatures that can punch through for gold...), and then flipping at the End of Turn, meaning your opponents have a full turn cycle to deal with it before you do anything really stupid, means it won't be as crazy as Academy.
Don't get me wrong, I'll be buying a bunch and jamming them into all sorts of decks - but it's not anywhere close to better than academy.
Shine... Yes. Broken? No.
I love me some artifact decks, and I love me some blue red. I'm excited for this land. But seeing that it comes online after turn 3-4. Needs some creatures to generate gold with. Then flips into a land that does cool stuff... I don't think calling for preemptive banning is necessary.
Again, NewCradle shows us how much power drops when you put a mana cost on it.
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Storm the Vault - honestly.... it looks weak if you ask me. UR is terrible at connecting with damage. There are a few commanders who can use this but I would say its not something that is inherently going to work all that well for UR decks. Its going to take time for a lot of them to get the treasures to flip it and between being a 4 mana enchantment and taking time for most to flip it..... I actually don't think this is actually very good. It does fit some commanders like The Locust God but honestly, if you have stuck your commander and made a bunch of tokens, I think its actually a little bit winmore already at that point not to mention there is the question of how late it is that you are getting it online anyways. I would rate this to be a 2/5 star card.
The Immortal Sun - really the first jump to for comparison for me is Staff of Nin. Both of these cards draw at the same rate but instead of having a small utility / token poke you have a slew of abilities.
- "Players can't activate Loyalty abilities of Planeswalkers." - this is a really nice pickup as it kicks in immediately. The downside is that it gives people a reason to remove this card as then they get their walkers back. Commander is a format where planeswalkers dont tend to live all that long so really I expect most players to play walkers for the value of them in that turn expecting them to die quickly, or play big mana planeswalkers that do board clears and kind of defend themselves, or be a dedicated planeswalker deck built to defend and abuse walkers. I think this card is more relivant against the second and third style of planeswalkers.
- "At the beginning of your draw step, draw an additional card." - this is primarily what people play Staff of Nin for assuming they consider it. So for the same mana and having the same ability I am cool with this.
- "Spells you cast cost 1 less to cast." - this is very interesting to me because there are not that many global cost reduction effects out there. Cost reduction tends to work more with decks that have good draw already or that utilize buyback spells with big pools of mana. Given this artifact also gives draw I think this might be useful with buyback spell based decks more than it would be with decks that chain spells but its possible it could be useful for either or both. Cost reduction can also help chain a second or third spell in the turn you play this depending on what turns and what kind of things your deck plays.
- "Creatures you control get +1/+1." - sweet an anthem. Obviously it tends to be stronger for swarm based decks.
Really I do like all of the elements that The Immortal Sun brings to the table. Personally I feel that the combination of abilities they put on this are stronger than Staff of Nin but I think in a lot of cases decks where you would at least put thought into if Staff of Nin is a playable card are going to be the same decks you consider The Immortal Sun. The card draw + planeswalker hate + anthem could all be useful for voltron based decks where giving up attacks to attack a planeswalker is really unfortunate could be really nice together. The mana cost reduction is probably the hardest one for me to validate on this card because of how much it costs to cast it doesn't tend to play well with cost reduction cards (usually you want the cost reducer to be cheap as well). I would rate this card 3/5 stars.Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
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It can go into any deck utilizing UR, such as Grixis or Temur, and the requirement is any five artifact, not just treasure, hence you don't even need combat to flip it.
That said, I am not sure if I would pay four mana upfront and prepare artifacts onboard for a stronger Tolarian Academy. Breya is the best candidate here because she can satisfy most of the condition anytime you cast her, and her deck is filled with cheap artifacts, but by the time you have this card in hand and the condition met it's usually too late, and I don't see myself tutor for it either.
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The only reasons that Tolarian Academy is banned is because of what it can do in the first few turns. I think people completely over hyped Growing Rites of Itlimoc and I think this card is really about the same if not possibly slightly worse than Growing Rites of Itlimoc. Adding a 4 mana cost and then putting what is kind of a heavy handed flip condition means that this card is going to be EXTREMELY hard pressed to be flipping in the early turns.
I am just saying, I really wouldn't get my hopes up for this one. If you are fine with it getting flipped by turn 8+ then sure I guess its ok but it really does not put it anywhere near Tolarian Academy. Having 5 artifacts plus 2UR on turn 4 or sooner seems incredibly unlikely if you ask me.
If it sees any play, I suspect it will be incredibly niche. Breya, Etherium Shaper might play the card but finding a commander or two that the card is playable for is not really marks for considering a card to be strong.
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StaffI dunno, it doesn't seem that hard to manage 5 artifacts fairly early in the game - which is why Academy is so busted.
T1: Seat of the Synod, Sol Ring, Izzet Signet
T2: Great Furnace, Mind Stone, This, flip.
T3: Have access to 11+ mana?
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I can figure out ways to play T1 Kozielk too but dream boat dreams of how to do it are not useful. How many games would be completely sick already if you had 3 mana stones including Sol Ring start anyways? Assuming you hit 2/3 of the artifact lands in your first two turns is also dreaming.
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StaffThe kind of hands that make Academy disgusting are going to be the same kind of hands that will flip this quickly and make a ton of mana out of it. The restricted color requirements and the fact that four mana is not insignificant (plus needing to wait a turn to cast anything at sorcery speed off of it) are the big things keeping this in check, but it's effectively going to be Academy whenever Academy would be at its best.
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You still need a number of things to make the new one work where as Tolrand Academy works off of much less.
With Tolrand Academy you could have 2-3 artifacts and the card is still really bonkers. You might also not have as many lands / mana rocks in your deck and still academy can carry you. This new one you kind of specifically need mana rocks so you can get up to mana and you need more of them sooner to go active. I think this comparison really is like 90% the same argument as the differences between Gaea's Cradle and Growing Rites of Itlimoc.
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Also, even if we get Storm the Vault to flip early, the number of cards it takes for it to happen would leave an empty hand (unless you happen to have a X draw spell in hand). Though, it may be viable enough in a 60 card deck due to higher consistency.
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Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Yup. The color restriction is also really high. If it were just blue for instance you could possibly combine it with a lot more options but the second color being red is kind of harsh just given the commander options that it limits it to. It also takes a more dedicated board to achieve and unlike Tolrand Academy if you don't have like completely optimal it does nothing. With academy you could still have like 2-3 artifacts and it was fantastic but this one demands you get there entirely.
I really would caution anyone from running out and pre ordering this because I feel this card is probably going to be over hyped assuming it has any price tag at all attached. If the card costs more than $1-2 then you are probably paying too much for it.
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[Modern] Allies
As for the card. 2RU is not gonna be enough to make it fair. It generate its own artifacts and it is too easy to get out 5 artifacts before playing it. Tolarian academy is a turn 1, tap for nothing, turn 2, play a land, play an artifact tap for 1. (Tolarian is a land and counts as your land drop)
Sure you can get more mana out as you continue to play artifacts but at the same time, EDH has a lot of mas removal. One vandalblaast an that OP academy is dead weight. there is enough removal in this game for an academy to mean nothing. Cradle is extremely easy to abuse. But obviously the RC favors green players and hates blue players.
Sure strip mine can kill Cradle and coffers, but it can also kill academy. (Anything that remove lands hits academy as well, so why are green and black players allowed to have the massive mana producing lands?)
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