Sure, you can draw your whole deck, but so can Enter the Infinite and I've never seen the card actually played ever. Normal commander decks don't want to draw their entire library.
The commander decks that want to win on the spot often want to either draw or mill their entire library. EtI isn't frequently hardcast, but I see it cast all the freaking time.
Sure, you can draw your whole deck, but so can Enter the Infinite and I've never seen the card actually played ever. Normal commander decks don't want to draw their entire library.
The commander decks that want to win on the spot often want to either draw or mill their entire library. EtI isn't frequently hardcast, but I see it cast all the freaking time.
I just don't think Paradox Engine falls in line with what usually gets banned. People bring up PoK, but PoK essentially gave you almost extra turns, gave you both the mana and the time to play your stuff...this only gives you mana, most of the time. And unless you have large amounts of artifact mana laying about (or mana dorks, for the obvious elf decks), it's not going to do all that much.
Here's the thing. Take a look at your own decks, as they currently are. Imagine if you take any random single card, and replace it with Paradox Engine.
How many of those decks will be genuinely improved by it? How many decks will actually do DEGENERATE stuff with it?
I'm not getting particularly far. Mostly because Paradox Engine requires a rather specific setup + followup sequence in order to truly work it's magic. Without that sequence, it becomes a very good trick that will immediately draw attention and unlike the afformentioned Prophet of Kruphix, odds are it's much harder to keep a flow of cards going to protect it if it gets targeted. Prophet players could simply use one of the various card draw creatures to dig up protection or heck, Deadeye Navigator to save their Prophet from spot removal. Paradox Engine players do not have that luxury barring a second piece such as Vedalken Orrery or Teferi.
Which brings me to the next point. Paradox Engine on its own really doesn't do much. It needs stuff around it, it needs fuel. Prophet of Kruphix on it's own had much the same issue, but it could turn an empty board into a flooded one in a flash (hah), Paradox Engine cannot. It also brings to mind the comparison of Prophet of Kruphix vs Seedborn Muse + Vedalken Orrery. The one-card catchall is banned, the arguably better two-card-combo isn't.
So I'd urge caution. Let it play out a bit, see what Paradox Engine really brings to your playgroup. Combo players gonna combo that's how it is and how it has always been, and that will never change or they'd have long-banned Ad Nauseam.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Sure, you can draw your whole deck, but so can Enter the Infinite and I've never seen the card actually played ever. Normal commander decks don't want to draw their entire library.
The commander decks that want to win on the spot often want to either draw or mill their entire library. EtI isn't frequently hardcast, but I see it cast all the freaking time.
Yeah, I know what it's used for, but I said normal commander decks, not the kind that win on the spot if their entire deck is in their hand/graveyard. Yeah, Paradox Engine can be super broken but if we're talking about banning, that doesn't matter at all. The kind of stuff that gets banned is the kind of stuff you could slot into a Commander precon and generate lots of value with, not OMG all my win conditions end the game instantly in some kind of combo fashion. Yeah, it seems like you can build a deck that can combo really hard with the Engine but seriously, this card is nothing like Prophet or even Omniscience which isn't banned. Omni just needs a deck to have a lot of drawing/tutoring to go accidentally crazy and Prophet just needs draw/tutor and a good number of creatures. This is just another combo card even if it is colorless and possibly a bit better than some of them since there might be a bit better redundancy in the pieces you can use to assemble the combo.
Is it really a combo when your combo pieces are mana rocks and card draw though? Those are just things you should be using. Maybe I am just overestimating Paradox Engine (very possible) but I'm looking at the general usefulness of the card more than its combo potential. Yeah, I may be able to cast my whole deck for free if I have a few mana rocks/dorks out, but I don't have to do that for it to be useful. Just untapping sol ring with each spell or brainstorming and untapping all my creatures to block an attack is pretty good too. That's not even considering all the permanents that tap to do non-mana stuff.
I just don't think Paradox Engine falls in line with what usually gets banned. People bring up PoK, but PoK essentially gave you almost extra turns, gave you both the mana and the time to play your stuff...this only gives you mana, most of the time. And unless you have large amounts of artifact mana laying about (or mana dorks, for the obvious elf decks), it's not going to do all that much. Here's the thing. Take a look at your own decks, as they currently are. Imagine if you take any random single card, and replace it with Paradox Engine.
How many of those decks will be genuinely improved by it? How many decks will actually do DEGENERATE stuff with it?
I'm not getting particularly far. Mostly because Paradox Engine requires a rather specific setup + followup sequence in order to truly work it's magic. Without that sequence, it becomes a very good trick that will immediately draw attention and unlike the afformentioned Prophet of Kruphix, odds are it's much harder to keep a flow of cards going to protect it if it gets targeted. Prophet players could simply use one of the various card draw creatures to dig up protection or heck, Deadeye Navigator to save their Prophet from spot removal. Paradox Engine players do not have that luxury barring a second piece such as Vedalken Orrery or Teferi.
Which brings me to the next point. Paradox Engine on its own really doesn't do much. It needs stuff around it, it needs fuel. Prophet of Kruphix on it's own had much the same issue, but it could turn an empty board into a flooded one in a flash (hah), Paradox Engine cannot. It also brings to mind the comparison of Prophet of Kruphix vs Seedborn Muse + Vedalken Orrery. The one-card catchall is banned, the arguably better two-card-combo isn't.
So I'd urge caution. Let it play out a bit, see what Paradox Engine really brings to your playgroup. Combo players gonna combo that's how it is and how it has always been, and that will never change or they'd have long-banned Ad Nauseam.
I'm usually with you in terms of EDH card evaluation, but I have to disagree on the above.
I think the decks that want it far outweighs the decks that don't.
I know people are really digging it's synergy with cards that specifically tap for something, but you have decks that use tapping for other purposes.
Rhys the Redeemed is another one that I'd be hard pressed to not cut something for it.
Anything that goes wide, or is relatively aggressive. Swing in, cast anything, untap your beaters for protection.
And yeah, in terms of skewing deck building, I'm going to be playing a lot more Acquire, Praetros Grasp and the like, because it's just insane value.
The only downside is that, on curve, it does nothing until your next turn.
I think it's just going to result in to many "Oops, I win" moments, and I am not a fan of those in this format.
I may very well be wrong, and I am willing to accept it's way to early to say, but this card is easily the closest to "questionable at best" as you can get.
I do agree that it is a card that can be dangerous, don't get me wrong. I do, however, think it's premature to call it an auto-include in a ton of decks and go from there. Rather, I'm of the mind that we should wait and see, give it a bit of time to settle. If we banned anything that got complaints right from the get-go, the banlist would be a lot larger. The only really quick bans, IIRC, are Worldfire and Griselbrand, the latter of which was legal for 3 months, I believe. Prophet of Kruphix took 2 years, Sylvan Primordial took more than a year.
I think as is, Paradox Engine is straddling the line of how far they can go with trying to break cards for this format. Yes, there's decks in which it'll be nuts. No question there. But there'll be plenty of decks where it won't be much but a decent value card. Like, you say "anything that goes wide...untap your beaters for protection" At that point, might as well give them vigilance.
But we'll have to wait and see. I'm not a psychic. If I were, I wouldn't be here, probably.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I do agree that it is a card that can be dangerous, don't get me wrong. I do, however, think it's premature to call it an auto-include in a ton of decks and go from there. Rather, I'm of the mind that we should wait and see, give it a bit of time to settle. If we banned anything that got complaints right from the get-go, the banlist would be a lot larger. The only really quick bans, IIRC, are Worldfire and Griselbrand, the latter of which was legal for 3 months, I believe. Prophet of Kruphix took 2 years, Sylvan Primordial took more than a year.
I think as is, Paradox Engine is straddling the line of how far they can go with trying to break cards for this format. Yes, there's decks in which it'll be nuts. No question there. But there'll be plenty of decks where it won't be much but a decent value card. Like, you say "anything that goes wide...untap your beaters for protection" At that point, might as well give them vigilance.
But we'll have to wait and see. I'm not a psychic. If I were, I wouldn't be here, probably.
Maybe I should have been more clear. I'm not calling for this to be banned now, I was just pointing out how it shares some qualities of currently banned cards, and ultimately may share the same fate. I haven't even proxied it yet, so I have no clue how it's going to play out.
It's kind of still a combo when you have to stuff your deck with tons of mana rocks to make it work or tutor for rocks. If you're just using it to untap a single Sol Ring or something it isn't as good as a 5 mana artifact that says "spells you cast cost 2 less to cast." If you're using it to untap Rhys, Thousand-Year Elixer and Magewright's Stone might be more reliable. It does look pretty sweet with Phenax, but I think the poor guy needs some help considering I've never seen anyone play him. If you're just using it to untap your creatures, getting vigilance isn't that hard and like I said, Akroma's Memorial is so much better. It's not like you can't put it into any deck and get it to do something, but the same is true for most cards that aren't on the level of useless like Worldgorger Dragon. Simply being amazing in Phenax is like Putrefax being nuts in Rafiq or Tarnished Citadel being awesome with Darien.
i see i was a little too hyped. tunnel vision is nice but lets oversight something more obvious. so buyback is the key to break it as capsize is another broken play with enough nonlandmana.
but i figured a reanimate chain could be used if at only 2B when untapping. gain mana and in the process get mana crypt to have the 4B to THEN go infinite with corpse dance.
i guess i will finally revisit my mono black which is left dead since the mulligan change.
Isochron Scepter is a lot more mana efficient if you just want repeatable spells.
Kozilek will want it. (One thing I often do is generate absurd amounts of mana and use the Staff of Domination to draw a bunch... this makes it easier to do that and cast those spells)
Melek will want it. (Duh. Storm.)
Selvala will want it. (Duh. Elfball)
Sidisi ANT might want this, I'd have to think about it.
Sidisi BUG Reanimator doesn't really love this, but it would be cool.
Odric Keyword Soup doesn't want this.
Sharuum wants it.
Ertai definitely wants it.
I think more decks in general will want it than not - while the above are my decks, I really think that the majority of commanders out there would like to have something like this.
I think the fact that the decks are doing ***** like Ad Nauseam, storm, Elfball, etc. means it's another card that's broken in hyper competitive that will never be banned because it isn't problematic in the average deck. I can certainly see how you could easily break it if you were trying, but it isn't the type of card I see as likely to ever be banned as much as a small part of the community would love to see it on the list with Ad Nauseam, Hermit Druid, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt.
black hasnt got many cmc<2 instants that are useful.
also isochron needs another card. that reanimate chain was an example where you start with only the commander. that makes the scenario more like a 2 card combo. one of them the commander and the other PE. (excluding those rocks).
i also think PEs potential is much better if it just makes stuff you do anyway better than if you add more do nothings to only support PE.
My first thought was Dark Ritual but my reply was to your comment about buyback being powerful with it. You're probably right Isochron Scepter isn't good in monoblack.
I think the fact that the decks are doing ***** like Ad Nauseam, storm, Elfball, etc. means it's another card that's broken in hyper competitive that will never be banned because it isn't problematic in the average deck. I can certainly see how you could easily break it if you were trying, but it isn't the type of card I see as likely to ever be banned as much as a small part of the community would love to see it on the list with Ad Nauseam, Hermit Druid, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt.
This is generally how I feel about it. It takes an established board state and pushes it over the top.
Elf decks have played Intruder Alarm for decades and no one ever seems to have a problem with that. Does the availability of a more ubiquitous/generic Intruder Alarm make this a problem? No, because if you slot it in, you know full well what you are doing: you are hoping to cast lots of spells and generate lots of mana in one long turn. Sounds like intentional combo to me, and less good than other intentional combos, to boot.
(Also, I don't think "more decks want it than not".)
Sram is really nice, although I can't help being a little disappointed that he's mono-W. He's sure to be a powerful commander for an equipment based deck. Really addresses the primary issue with mono-W by drawing a bunch of cards and being low cmc.
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Sram is really nice, although I can't help being a little disappointed that he's mono-W. He's sure to be a powerful commander for an equipment based deck. Really addresses the primary issue with mono-W by drawing a bunch of cards and being low cmc.
Agreed. He's a step in a great direction for focused white CA, though I imagine he'll just end up as a hardier altenrative Isamaru for DUEL COMMANDER in 9/10 appearances. He's certainly the first mono-W commander who's ever attracted my interest.
Either way, look how cool he is! He's got a TOOTHPICK. He's basically a spaghetti western protagonist with some neat toys.
What a great direction for white, yeah? Let's all just forget about that dastardly Paradox Engine, shall we? 3 pages is quite enough discussion for one boring, mildly unbalanced combo piece. It's really just not as exciting in comparison, right (Hint: That was rhetorical, it really isn't and you're all sort of dull for harping on it for this long when the abusive potential is blatantly obvious and the effect isn't even really unique (e.g. Intruder alarm, anyone))?
Sram is really nice, although I can't help being a little disappointed that he's mono-W. He's sure to be a powerful commander for an equipment based deck. Really addresses the primary issue with mono-W by drawing a bunch of cards and being low cmc.
Agreed. He's a step in a great direction for focused white CA, though I imagine he'll just end up as a hardier altenrative Isamaru for DUEL COMMANDER in 9/10 appearances. He's certainly the first mono-W commander who's ever attracted my interest.
Either way, look how cool he is! He's got a TOOTHPICK. He's basically a spaghetti western protagonist with some neat toys.
What a great direction for white, yeah? Let's all just forget about that dastardly Paradox Engine, shall we? 3 pages is quite enough discussion for one boring, mildly unbalanced combo piece. It's really just not as exciting in comparison, right (Hint: That was rhetorical, it really isn't and you're all sort of dull for harping on it for this long when the abusive potential is blatantly obvious and the effect isn't even really unique (e.g. Intruder alarm, anyone))?
Maro is also known for stagnant view on color pie. Every color should have card draw and destroy effect, just have to be creative on how it could be done. Besides, Sram is a legendary creature, no one can abuse it with multiples at the same time, he can be more special than regular.
Sram is really nice, although I can't help being a little disappointed that he's mono-W. He's sure to be a powerful commander for an equipment based deck. Really addresses the primary issue with mono-W by drawing a bunch of cards and being low cmc.
Agreed. He's a step in a great direction for focused white CA, though I imagine he'll just end up as a hardier altenrative Isamaru for DUEL COMMANDER in 9/10 appearances. He's certainly the first mono-W commander who's ever attracted my interest.
Either way, look how cool he is! He's got a TOOTHPICK. He's basically a spaghetti western protagonist with some neat toys.
What a great direction for white, yeah? Let's all just forget about that dastardly Paradox Engine, shall we? 3 pages is quite enough discussion for one boring, mildly unbalanced combo piece. It's really just not as exciting in comparison, right (Hint: That was rhetorical, it really isn't and you're all sort of dull for harping on it for this long when the abusive potential is blatantly obvious and the effect isn't even really unique (e.g. Intruder alarm, anyone))?
I don't care what the man thinks. I only play one format (this one) and so long as WOTC continues to print cards to the effect of making my personal experience more enjoyable (e.g. this one), MaRo can think that Paul Rudd is president and the moon is magenta for all I care.
What are you talking about? Capsize is one of the strongest blue commons in the format.
Six? Not sure where you get six from. Just using staples of the format, Thran Dynamo + Gilded Lotus is enough mana to get infinite bounce.
It isn't necessarily about the mana for the elf deck. This also lets you re-use powerful tap abilities like Fauna Shaman.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Thanks for summing that up for me, I was in the process of typing "not about the man-" when my page refreshed and there you were.
And, this is actually "cheaper" for elf decks, as they usually rely on Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote, both once per turn as well.
Here's the thing. Take a look at your own decks, as they currently are. Imagine if you take any random single card, and replace it with Paradox Engine.
How many of those decks will be genuinely improved by it? How many decks will actually do DEGENERATE stuff with it?
I'm not getting particularly far. Mostly because Paradox Engine requires a rather specific setup + followup sequence in order to truly work it's magic. Without that sequence, it becomes a very good trick that will immediately draw attention and unlike the afformentioned Prophet of Kruphix, odds are it's much harder to keep a flow of cards going to protect it if it gets targeted. Prophet players could simply use one of the various card draw creatures to dig up protection or heck, Deadeye Navigator to save their Prophet from spot removal. Paradox Engine players do not have that luxury barring a second piece such as Vedalken Orrery or Teferi.
Which brings me to the next point. Paradox Engine on its own really doesn't do much. It needs stuff around it, it needs fuel. Prophet of Kruphix on it's own had much the same issue, but it could turn an empty board into a flooded one in a flash (hah), Paradox Engine cannot. It also brings to mind the comparison of Prophet of Kruphix vs Seedborn Muse + Vedalken Orrery. The one-card catchall is banned, the arguably better two-card-combo isn't.
So I'd urge caution. Let it play out a bit, see what Paradox Engine really brings to your playgroup. Combo players gonna combo that's how it is and how it has always been, and that will never change or they'd have long-banned Ad Nauseam.
I'm usually with you in terms of EDH card evaluation, but I have to disagree on the above.
I think the decks that want it far outweighs the decks that don't.
I know people are really digging it's synergy with cards that specifically tap for something, but you have decks that use tapping for other purposes.
First one that comes to mind is Phenax, god of Deception. This ones obvious.
Rhys the Redeemed is another one that I'd be hard pressed to not cut something for it.
Anything that goes wide, or is relatively aggressive. Swing in, cast anything, untap your beaters for protection.
And yeah, in terms of skewing deck building, I'm going to be playing a lot more Acquire, Praetros Grasp and the like, because it's just insane value.
The only downside is that, on curve, it does nothing until your next turn.
I think it's just going to result in to many "Oops, I win" moments, and I am not a fan of those in this format.
I may very well be wrong, and I am willing to accept it's way to early to say, but this card is easily the closest to "questionable at best" as you can get.
I think as is, Paradox Engine is straddling the line of how far they can go with trying to break cards for this format. Yes, there's decks in which it'll be nuts. No question there. But there'll be plenty of decks where it won't be much but a decent value card. Like, you say "anything that goes wide...untap your beaters for protection" At that point, might as well give them vigilance.
But we'll have to wait and see. I'm not a psychic. If I were, I wouldn't be here, probably.
Maybe I should have been more clear. I'm not calling for this to be banned now, I was just pointing out how it shares some qualities of currently banned cards, and ultimately may share the same fate. I haven't even proxied it yet, so I have no clue how it's going to play out.
Melek will want it. (Duh. Storm.)
Selvala will want it. (Duh. Elfball)
Sidisi ANT might want this, I'd have to think about it.
Sidisi BUG Reanimator doesn't really love this, but it would be cool.
Odric Keyword Soup doesn't want this.
Sharuum wants it.
Ertai definitely wants it.
I think more decks in general will want it than not - while the above are my decks, I really think that the majority of commanders out there would like to have something like this.
Elf decks have played Intruder Alarm for decades and no one ever seems to have a problem with that. Does the availability of a more ubiquitous/generic Intruder Alarm make this a problem? No, because if you slot it in, you know full well what you are doing: you are hoping to cast lots of spells and generate lots of mana in one long turn. Sounds like intentional combo to me, and less good than other intentional combos, to boot.
(Also, I don't think "more decks want it than not".)
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Agreed. He's a step in a great direction for focused white CA, though I imagine he'll just end up as a hardier altenrative Isamaru for DUEL COMMANDER in 9/10 appearances. He's certainly the first mono-W commander who's ever attracted my interest.
Either way, look how cool he is! He's got a TOOTHPICK. He's basically a spaghetti western protagonist with some neat toys.
What a great direction for white, yeah? Let's all just forget about that dastardly Paradox Engine, shall we? 3 pages is quite enough discussion for one boring, mildly unbalanced combo piece. It's really just not as exciting in comparison, right (Hint: That was rhetorical, it really isn't and you're all sort of dull for harping on it for this long when the abusive potential is blatantly obvious and the effect isn't even really unique (e.g. Intruder alarm, anyone))?
Plus, the guy is called SRAM! Who are know for their biking... equipment!
His expertise Sram's Expertise goes straight into my Marath, Will of the Wild summoning deck. Can't wait to get three tokens and cast Fierce Empath, search for a 6cc+ creature, then Food Chain it right out.
I also appreciate the new Revolt mechanics, it's like Morbid but better, also works with blinking effects.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I thought Maro was adamant that white shouldn't have card draw like this, citing Puresteel Paladin and Mentor of the Meek as failures.
Maro is also known for stagnant view on color pie. Every color should have card draw and destroy effect, just have to be creative on how it could be done. Besides, Sram is a legendary creature, no one can abuse it with multiples at the same time, he can be more special than regular.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Accorder's Shield, Bone Saw, Spidersilk Net etc. replace themselves. Flickering Ward is great obviously.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I don't care what the man thinks. I only play one format (this one) and so long as WOTC continues to print cards to the effect of making my personal experience more enjoyable (e.g. this one), MaRo can think that Paul Rudd is president and the moon is magenta for all I care.