Paradox Engine is not quite on the power level of Ad Nauseam, Doomsday, or Hermit Druid but it's twice as powerful as Prophet of Kruphix; Paradox Engine is a very powerful enabler with which a board can be amplified to quickly unload a hand. With some kind of draw/tutor engine it's game.
Must've missed the part where it gives your stuff flash.
Paradox Engine is very much a combo engine, and those are very rarely banned. Which is why I don't think this thing will see the banhammer either, it still requires quite a few moving pieces to work it's magic. It's undeniably good at what it does, but it's not an end-all of combo cards or anything.
Gives your stuff flash and quadruples your mana.
Not even close to a ban imo, you'll need paradox engine, a bunch of manarocks and some way to draw cards for it to be really broken.
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Don't most EDH decks run mana rocks and ways to draw cards though? I think it's going to take very little set up to just be able to play your whole deck with Paradox Engine.
With Paradox Engine out and a mana dork + Mox Diamond + Mana Vault you could probably play out your entire hand THIS turn. As opposed to PoK which requires you to pass your turn. There is simply no comparison. Paradox Engine is insane; it's a perfect fit for Leovold.
I think Paradox Engine will find good use in a deck that utilizes a decent amount of:
1) Mana rocks
2) Permanents with tap abilities
3) Abilities that require you to tap a certain amount of permanents
4) Turning creatures sideways and then untapping them in the second main phase for blocking purposes.
tl;dr - Paradox Engine could find a home in many decks. I know my Talrand and Mizzix decks will especially like it, since they are both mana rock and cheap spell heavy.
I really like the art on paradox engine- and I'm eager to see the regular art.
Comparing it to other engine cards, I can see how it's easily broken in the "oops, I just realized what I've done" manner. However, I would expect for seasoned players to already have a high tolerance for craziness by now. Almost all of the zero mana sacrifice outlets used in edh are "broken" in the same manner. Ashnod's Altar, Spawning Pit, Blasting Station (that one even kills)...creatures are a plentiful resource to feed into engines.
This card feels a lot like aetehrflux reservoir to me. Turn spells on stack into something else. What are some other engines that use the same fuel? Because I cannot think of similar ones right now.
I don't think it's a big deal in an average commander deck from what I've seen. Sure, you can draw your whole deck, but so can Enter the Infinite and I've never seen the card actually played ever. Normal commander decks don't want to draw their entire library.
I'm not sure Paradox Engine is capable of being played fairly. Like, I would put it in my deck, but even there I'm not sure it's safe. Any spells that cost less mana than the amount of mana my rocks can produce are effectively free and actually generate mana. From there, it's just a matter of whether or not I have any card draw spells in hand (or on the battlefield — yikes!) to continue digging for further draw spells. In that respect it reminds me a lot of Omniscience, a five mana Omniscience that asks a little bit more from its controller but costs half as much.
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You just need the engine, mana rocks to make six mana, and Capsize to bounce everything, correct?
That's true, but it's not as "setup free" as people would claim. It's not truly just a plug-and-play infinite all the time. Almost all of the broken rocks only generate colorless. The way I see most people play around me, the only way they're going to get the Engine in play really fast is by emptying out their hands anyways.
Plus Capsize isn't really played at all (except for in decks that mostly already generate infinite mana in faster ways than Paradox Engine).
I'm not sure Paradox Engine is capable of being played fairly. Like, I would put it in my deck, but even there I'm not sure it's safe. Any spells that cost less mana than the amount of mana my rocks can produce are effectively free and actually generate mana. From there, it's just a matter of whether or not I have any card draw spells in hand (or on the battlefield — yikes!) to continue digging for further draw spells. In that respect it reminds me a lot of Omniscience, a five mana Omniscience that asks a little bit more from its controller but costs half as much.
You just need the engine, mana rocks to make six mana, and Capsize to bounce everything, correct?
Yep, so a 6 card or so combo. Powerful when it works but there are far worse things you can do with six cards.
Now I agree that the card is powerful and that it will be great even when only generating some extra mana and giving your team vigilance. But if you want to combo out there are way more efficient ways to go about it.
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You just need the engine, mana rocks to make six mana, and Capsize to bounce everything, correct?
Yep, so a 6 card or so combo. Powerful when it works but there are far worse things you can do with six cards.
Now I agree that the card is powerful and that it will be great even when only generating some extra mana and giving your team vigilance. But if you want to combo out there are way more efficient ways to go about it.
Well, I think all elf decks just had one heck of a party. I mean, this and Cloudstone Curio are just ridiculous.
Elvish Archdruid + Elvish Visionary, yuck. I mean, I know that combos already exist like that, but this just seems way faster than all of the triggered ability and stack manipulation nonsense that usually goes into an elf sized blowout.
If you think this card just draws your entire deck... it plays your entire deck. Cast, untap, tap x to draw, cast drawn spell, untap, repeat. Only way you'll get unlucky (after playing your whole hand) is if you get a nice stack of lands in a row.
I'm looking at Paradox Engine with hope because I've been wanting something that can let me drop my entire hand like Mind Over Matter without being as degenerate as Mind Over Matter. To that end, to anyone thinking it's ban-worthy, may I direct your attention to the perfectly legal Mind Over Matter.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I'm looking at Paradox Engine with hope because I've been wanting something that can let me drop my entire hand like Mind Over Matter without being as degenerate as Mind Over Matter. To that end, to anyone thinking it's ban-worthy, may I direct your attention to the perfectly legal Mind Over Matter.
Not following how you think this is less degenerate. If anything they both do very similar things but Mind Over Matter is much harder to cast, color specific, and requires your deck to be built with it as a win condition. In other words I think Mind Over Matter can obviously be degenerate but only in specific decks. Paradox Engine can go in almost any pre-existing deck right now and be very good without any set up. I think the comparisons to Prophet are pretty fair except you don't need to be running Simic.
I'm looking at Paradox Engine with hope because I've been wanting something that can let me drop my entire hand like Mind Over Matter without being as degenerate as Mind Over Matter. To that end, to anyone thinking it's ban-worthy, may I direct your attention to the perfectly legal Mind Over Matter.
Not following how you think this is less degenerate. If anything they both do very similar things but Mind Over Matter is much harder to cast, color specific, and requires your deck to be built with it as a win condition. In other words I think Mind Over Matter can obviously be degenerate but only in specific decks. Paradox Engine can go in almost any pre-existing deck right now and be very good without any set up. I think the comparisons to Prophet are pretty fair except you don't need to be running Simic.
Just to elaborate a bit. The problem with Prophet wasn't how powerful it was (although it was powerful). The problem was it being an auto include in almost every Simic deck and being annoying as hell to play against. I think Paradox Engine has the same issues.
I don't see how it has the Prophet problem. The problem wasn't power. It was that it went into a bunch of "fair" decks and drug out turns to an obnoxious amount doing "fair" things. This just sounds like if it resolves in an "unfair" deck, everyone might as well scoop unless they have an answer in hand right now because it will win on the spot.
I'm looking at Paradox Engine with hope because I've been wanting something that can let me drop my entire hand like Mind Over Matter without being as degenerate as Mind Over Matter. To that end, to anyone thinking it's ban-worthy, may I direct your attention to the perfectly legal Mind Over Matter.
Not following how you think this is less degenerate. If anything they both do very similar things but Mind Over Matter is much harder to cast, color specific, and requires your deck to be built with it as a win condition. In other words I think Mind Over Matter can obviously be degenerate but only in specific decks. Paradox Engine can go in almost any pre-existing deck right now and be very good without any set up. I think the comparisons to Prophet are pretty fair except you don't need to be running Simic.
Just to elaborate a bit. The problem with Prophet wasn't how powerful it was (although it was powerful). The problem was it being an auto include in almost every Simic deck and being annoying as hell to play against. I think Paradox Engine has the same issues.
This. although I wouldn't say Paradox is as annoying as prophet, it's only intended purpose is flat out abuse. I just love how they call it an engine, because that's exactly what it is
I've used Palinchron as a hard to kill flier before. I mean it is free, it's decent size, and can block forever. Of course, you can use this to draw an extra card, grant vigilance, or something but if you want a non absurd number of cards, why not run Consecrated Sphinx or Mind's Eye? They do it alone. I think the vigilance enchantment costs 2 mana or you could even go Akroma's Memorial since you'll need one or more spells to make this thing work. Unless you want to do something super busted with this thing, it's terrible. It's a bad mana doubler, bad vigilance granter, and bad draw engine. I'm not sure it would be worth a slot in any of my 26 commander decks since it does so little so poorly playing fair.
Dream Halls is a good comparison, but I think Paradox Engine is a lot more dangerous. With Dream Halls, every spell I cast at least costs me another spell (of the same color no less). That's not the case with Paradox Engine. Dream Halls is also a symmetrical effect making it a bit of a double-edged sword since my opponents might be able to capitalize off of it.
I'm looking at Paradox Engine with hope because I've been wanting something that can let me drop my entire hand like Mind Over Matter without being as degenerate as Mind Over Matter. To that end, to anyone thinking it's ban-worthy, may I direct your attention to the perfectly legal Mind Over Matter.
I wish I could be as optimistic.
To untap one of my permanents with Mind Over Matter, all I had to do was discard a card. With Paradox Engine, I get to untap all of my nonland permanents, not just one, by casting a spell. Depending on how many mana rocks I control, that spell may very well cost 0 mana. If so, that's already leagues better than Mind Over Matter because the cost (cast a spell for free) is less detrimental than discarding a card, and the effect (untap all nonland permanents) is much more potent than untapping only a single one. This doesn't even take into consideration that it's possible to actually generate mana with Paradox Engine by casting spells that cost less than the amount of mana my rocks can produce. I just can't imagine this card being less dangerous than Mind Over Matter; it may very well be more dangerous.
There are a few limitations with the Engine I suppose. It's harder to activate at instant speed than Mind Over Matter, and it can't tap down permanents without the help of some other nonland card. Some spells may not be possible to cast to trigger Paradox Engine due to timing restrictions such as Illusionist's Gambit, making Mind Over Matter easier to pay for in some narrow cases, but other than that, I see Paradox Engine being the more broken untap effect every time.
EDIT: I guess a player could also live in a very weird world where they have 30 cards in hand, but only a handful of lands and literally zero nonland permanents in play. In that circumstance, Mind Over Matter would probably be better, but that entire situation sounds more than a bit implausible.
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Yeah, it's probably more broken than Mind over Matter, but Hermit Druid and Ad Nauseam are probably more broken than Paradox Engine. The banned list isn't about being the most broken card ever. I mean no one's ever said Sol Ring/Mana Crypt isn't a disgustingly overpowered card.
EDIT: I guess a player could also live in a very weird world where they have 30 cards in hand, but only a handful of lands and literally zero nonland permanents in play. In that circumstance, Mind Over Matter would probably be better, but that entire situation sounds more than a bit implausible.
Oh come now, you're well aware that's entirely how I play the game.
At any rate, I think you underestimate how specific a deck needs to be to really go crazy with this. You need a critical mass of nonland mana sources, those sources need to be able to support all your color requirements, you need a pile a draw spells or a tap to draw mechanism (which if you have, Mind Over Matter really is a million times better because), you need to chain those things without just getting stuck with a hand full of lands, and at the end of this whole process you better have an instantaneous or resilient win con because quite the opposite of Prophet of Kruphix giving all your things flash, this card will only every benefit you if you play in a way that would otherwise be quite obvious over extension that makes you lose to a board wipe. And if you do all that fast mana and low land count and redundant cheap draw and fast win condition with likely counterspell backup, you clearly know exactly what you're doing.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Yeah, it's probably more broken than Mind over Matter, but Hermit Druid and Ad Nauseam are probably more broken than Paradox Engine. The banned list isn't about being the most broken card ever. I mean no one's ever said Sol Ring/Mana Crypt isn't a disgustingly overpowered card.
I actually think this is the exact kind of card that will draw the ire of the RC.
It just slots into every deck so effectively that it will be hard to "not break it", if you will.
I will, dare I say, liken this to Primeval Titan. I'm sure in short order, games will revolve around getting this, destroying this, recurring this, copying this. It really is that powerful. I mean, even in "Battlecruiser" decks it turns all of your spells into a tacked on Raise the Alarm sans cantrip, and that is probably its fairest use.
I dunno, maybe I'm giving it to much credit, but giving every spell a Turnabout(sans lands) is pretty powerful.
I'd say it does fit the exact description of PoK though, except it doesn't share the downside(downside?) of having to be restricted to UGx. The flash aspect also made it more powerful, but a creature every turn sounds tame compared to "Cast cantrips to ultimately play/draw your deck" the same turn.
Paradox Engine
compared to Dream Halls or Mind over Matter. these need cards in hand to cheat the mana.
MoM likes Gilded lotus but doesnt need it. PE needs cards on the battlefield but if those are plenty its more like an omniscience.
if PE wants to be abused the same turn its cast it needs a CHEAP card to untap straight after casting the PE.
to look at the potential of a card i like to think about what would be a very broken scenario. so...
sidisi mono black
turn 1 swamp play mana vault
turn 2 mishra's workshop play gilded lotus play paradox engine play tormod's crypt UNTAP
tap lotus and vault for 3BBB cast Sidisi, Undead Vizier UNTAP fetch Reanimate and let sidisi die. B in the pool tap and add3BBB cast reanimate UNTAP +3BBB so at 6BBBBBB now.
chain animate dead, dance of the dead and exhume to get to 24 mana and put sidisi in the command zone.
recast sidisi for 7 UNTAP tap have 23 mana get doubling cube play UNTAP tap have 27 mana.
use the cube 24x2=48 mana. sidisi costs 9 and gets any card: 48-9=39 39+3(+3-3)=42 42x2=84mana .....
TLDR
in the end it depends on how much nonland-mana-sources there are in play but something like a reanimate chain can add loads of mana without much handcards needed.
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about a ban. it might be less powerfull than ad nauseam BUT that is not the question. thus i aggre with others its like prophet of kruphix. a mana engine that could potentially warp casual games by accident. adNaus will rarely break a battlecruiser deck. atleast griselbrand was playable 3 months so lets enjoy it as long as it will be there.
I got distracted halfway through when I realized that the whole deal just goes infinite if the reanimation (that can be tutored for) is corpse dance?
You just need the engine, mana rocks to make six mana, and Capsize to bounce everything, correct?
Yep, so a 6 card or so combo. Powerful when it works but there are far worse things you can do with six cards.
Now I agree that the card is powerful and that it will be great even when only generating some extra mana and giving your team vigilance. But if you want to combo out there are way more efficient ways to go about it.
Well, I think all elf decks just had one heck of a party. I mean, this and Cloudstone Curio are just ridiculous.
Elvish Archdruid + Elvish Visionary, yuck. I mean, I know that combos already exist like that, but this just seems way faster than all of the triggered ability and stack manipulation nonsense that usually goes into an elf sized blowout.
It's disgusting with those cards, yes. But I don't think an elf deck wants to spend 5 mana on an artifact that does nothing on its own. mana isn't usually a big problem with elves.
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Gives your stuff flash and quadruples your mana.
Not even close to a ban imo, you'll need paradox engine, a bunch of manarocks and some way to draw cards for it to be really broken.
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BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
1) Mana rocks
2) Permanents with tap abilities
3) Abilities that require you to tap a certain amount of permanents
4) Turning creatures sideways and then untapping them in the second main phase for blocking purposes.
tl;dr - Paradox Engine could find a home in many decks. I know my Talrand and Mizzix decks will especially like it, since they are both mana rock and cheap spell heavy.
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
Comparing it to other engine cards, I can see how it's easily broken in the "oops, I just realized what I've done" manner. However, I would expect for seasoned players to already have a high tolerance for craziness by now. Almost all of the zero mana sacrifice outlets used in edh are "broken" in the same manner. Ashnod's Altar, Spawning Pit, Blasting Station (that one even kills)...creatures are a plentiful resource to feed into engines.
This card feels a lot like aetehrflux reservoir to me. Turn spells on stack into something else. What are some other engines that use the same fuel? Because I cannot think of similar ones right now.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Plus Capsize isn't really played at all (except for in decks that mostly already generate infinite mana in faster ways than Paradox Engine).
You mean Dream Halls?
Yep, so a 6 card or so combo. Powerful when it works but there are far worse things you can do with six cards.
Now I agree that the card is powerful and that it will be great even when only generating some extra mana and giving your team vigilance. But if you want to combo out there are way more efficient ways to go about it.
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Well, I think all elf decks just had one heck of a party. I mean, this and Cloudstone Curio are just ridiculous.
Elvish Archdruid + Elvish Visionary, yuck. I mean, I know that combos already exist like that, but this just seems way faster than all of the triggered ability and stack manipulation nonsense that usually goes into an elf sized blowout.
It has its problems but it's insane
Not following how you think this is less degenerate. If anything they both do very similar things but Mind Over Matter is much harder to cast, color specific, and requires your deck to be built with it as a win condition. In other words I think Mind Over Matter can obviously be degenerate but only in specific decks. Paradox Engine can go in almost any pre-existing deck right now and be very good without any set up. I think the comparisons to Prophet are pretty fair except you don't need to be running Simic.
Just to elaborate a bit. The problem with Prophet wasn't how powerful it was (although it was powerful). The problem was it being an auto include in almost every Simic deck and being annoying as hell to play against. I think Paradox Engine has the same issues.
This. although I wouldn't say Paradox is as annoying as prophet, it's only intended purpose is flat out abuse. I just love how they call it an engine, because that's exactly what it is
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Dream Halls is a good comparison, but I think Paradox Engine is a lot more dangerous. With Dream Halls, every spell I cast at least costs me another spell (of the same color no less). That's not the case with Paradox Engine. Dream Halls is also a symmetrical effect making it a bit of a double-edged sword since my opponents might be able to capitalize off of it.
I wish I could be as optimistic.
To untap one of my permanents with Mind Over Matter, all I had to do was discard a card. With Paradox Engine, I get to untap all of my nonland permanents, not just one, by casting a spell. Depending on how many mana rocks I control, that spell may very well cost 0 mana. If so, that's already leagues better than Mind Over Matter because the cost (cast a spell for free) is less detrimental than discarding a card, and the effect (untap all nonland permanents) is much more potent than untapping only a single one. This doesn't even take into consideration that it's possible to actually generate mana with Paradox Engine by casting spells that cost less than the amount of mana my rocks can produce. I just can't imagine this card being less dangerous than Mind Over Matter; it may very well be more dangerous.
There are a few limitations with the Engine I suppose. It's harder to activate at instant speed than Mind Over Matter, and it can't tap down permanents without the help of some other nonland card. Some spells may not be possible to cast to trigger Paradox Engine due to timing restrictions such as Illusionist's Gambit, making Mind Over Matter easier to pay for in some narrow cases, but other than that, I see Paradox Engine being the more broken untap effect every time.
EDIT: I guess a player could also live in a very weird world where they have 30 cards in hand, but only a handful of lands and literally zero nonland permanents in play. In that circumstance, Mind Over Matter would probably be better, but that entire situation sounds more than a bit implausible.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Oh come now, you're well aware that's entirely how I play the game.
At any rate, I think you underestimate how specific a deck needs to be to really go crazy with this. You need a critical mass of nonland mana sources, those sources need to be able to support all your color requirements, you need a pile a draw spells or a tap to draw mechanism (which if you have, Mind Over Matter really is a million times better because), you need to chain those things without just getting stuck with a hand full of lands, and at the end of this whole process you better have an instantaneous or resilient win con because quite the opposite of Prophet of Kruphix giving all your things flash, this card will only every benefit you if you play in a way that would otherwise be quite obvious over extension that makes you lose to a board wipe. And if you do all that fast mana and low land count and redundant cheap draw and fast win condition with likely counterspell backup, you clearly know exactly what you're doing.
I actually think this is the exact kind of card that will draw the ire of the RC.
It just slots into every deck so effectively that it will be hard to "not break it", if you will.
I will, dare I say, liken this to Primeval Titan. I'm sure in short order, games will revolve around getting this, destroying this, recurring this, copying this. It really is that powerful. I mean, even in "Battlecruiser" decks it turns all of your spells into a tacked on Raise the Alarm sans cantrip, and that is probably its fairest use.
I dunno, maybe I'm giving it to much credit, but giving every spell a Turnabout(sans lands) is pretty powerful.
I'd say it does fit the exact description of PoK though, except it doesn't share the downside(downside?) of having to be restricted to UGx. The flash aspect also made it more powerful, but a creature every turn sounds tame compared to "Cast cantrips to ultimately play/draw your deck" the same turn.
I got distracted halfway through when I realized that the whole deal just goes infinite if the reanimation (that can be tutored for) is corpse dance?
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
It's disgusting with those cards, yes. But I don't think an elf deck wants to spend 5 mana on an artifact that does nothing on its own. mana isn't usually a big problem with elves.
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