Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis are certainly my favourite gay guys for an oddball deck and so far my favourite legendary in this set.
Cascade, scry by the boatload and defenders. Just a sort of 'drown people in card advantage, win somehow' - deck. Effective? Probably not. Able to win every game? Nah. Fun in the durdle central while people try to figure out what I am even doing, without realizing even *I* don't have an idea of it? You bet.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
Tymna pairs pretty well with Kydele. Attack three opponents, lose 3 life, draw three cards, then you can tap for 4 colorless mana to play the cards you just drew.
Not game breaking, but I don't think any pair of Partners will be.
Requires too much setup, I think. For that plan to work, you actually need Tymna and Kydele out plus enough creatures to attack (and connect with!).
Absolutely agreed. Though at the very least Black and Blue grant creatures unblockable easy enough, it's still waaaaay too many hoops to jump through.
I'm really starting to feel like I'm the only one who likes the design on the 4c Legendaries
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
I'm not going to pretend I understand the desire to build/play a group hug or chaos deck.
I only started to get a desire to play Chaos when I got shackled to a playgroup that plays total carebear. I just don't like the commanders for such, so I'm kind of hoping Whiteless is pretty good. Otherwise I'll probably go with Blueless.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Tymna pairs pretty well with Kydele. Attack three opponents, lose 3 life, draw three cards, then you can tap for 4 colorless mana to play the cards you just drew.
Not game breaking, but I don't think any pair of Partners will be.
Requires too much setup, I think. For that plan to work, you actually need Tymna and Kydele out plus enough creatures to attack (and connect with!).
Absolutely agreed. Though at the very least Black and Blue grant creatures unblockable easy enough, it's still waaaaay too many hoops to jump through.
I'm really starting to feel like I'm the only one who likes the design on the 4c Legendaries
Atraxa is sweet. Proliferate has lots of applications.
Breya I like the design, but man that cost is steeeep. I wish she was a 2/2 and her ability cost 1, sac 1. Or even 2, sac 1. Or just sac 2. 2, sac 2 is really painful, especially since the first and last ability are pretty niche. I like the option to kill stuff or burn people out in response to stuff, but you have to keep a ton of mana up AND somehow find the time to generate a ton of artifacts.
Saskia I think is just boring. And not very powerful.
The kings are group hug. Group hug is the worst thing since bagpipes. (actually I like bagpipes sometimes, so let's go with the worst thing since Star Wars: attack of the clones instead)
The ogre seems fine I guess, but I don't like cascade. Chaos in general does not appeal to me. I prefer to play precisely and carefully, not just overwhelm with value.
Of the other commanders, most of them are at least decent, and some are real cool. The RW ones are a travesty, though, and ludevic is so horrible I'd rather have nothing on the battlefield than him.
I blame most of the failures on the artchetypes. group hug is for people who would rather be playing co-op. chaos is for people who would rather be playing craps. aggro is for people who would rather be playing standard. There's only 2 viable archetypes in the collection. Luckily the partner commanders don't adhere too closely to the archetypes.
I still think Saskia is neat because she's literally combatting the three-or-so-opponents-with-40-life hurdle that aggro faces in this format. That and everyone being afraid to attack.
Holy F, that faerie is nuts. Every time your opponents play a critter, you get an artifact copy of it? Is that supposed to deter blinking or something?
Atraxa is sweet. Proliferate has lots of applications.
Breya I like the design, but man that cost is steeeep. I wish she was a 2/2 and her ability cost 1, sac 1. Or even 2, sac 1. Or just sac 2. 2, sac 2 is really painful, especially since the first and last ability are pretty niche. I like the option to kill stuff or burn people out in response to stuff, but you have to keep a ton of mana up AND somehow find the time to generate a ton of artifacts.
Saskia I think is just boring. And not very powerful.
The kings are group hug. Group hug is the worst thing since bagpipes. (actually I like bagpipes sometimes, so let's go with the worst thing since Star Wars: attack of the clones instead)
The ogre seems fine I guess, but I don't like cascade. Chaos in general does not appeal to me. I prefer to play precisely and carefully, not just overwhelm with value.
Of the other commanders, most of them are at least decent, and some are real cool. The RW ones are a travesty, though, and ludevic is so horrible I'd rather have nothing on the battlefield than him.
I blame most of the failures on the archetypes. group hug is for people who would rather be playing co-op. chaos is for people who would rather be playing craps. aggro is for people who would rather be playing standard. There's only 2 viable archetypes in the collection. Luckily the partner commanders don't adhere too closely to the archetypes.
This reads like an extremely toxic approach to the format and your meta (bolded for emphasis). What I gather from your post is that you don't like playing aggro, group hug, or chaos decks. Moreover, it appears you adamantly dislike playing with others who use those approaches, but correct me if I'm wrong.
We knew 4C commanders were a difficult design space to do well. I'm shocked they went with archetypal models at all; so far I think the 4C commanders we've seen do an amazing job of capturing those archetypes, so kudos to them on that. This isn't the space to discuss the actual viability of archetypes, but I'll reiterate a sentiment heard through these forums and in this sub-forum frequently. There's a good chance these products aren't made with you in mind, and there's an even better chance that your definition of EDH and fun isn't ubiquitous. I appreciate your opinion, but I'd really like to see these threads discuss the strengths of these cards rather than their viability in what sounds like (and again I could be wrong) an extremely tailored and competitive meta.
As for what we've seen, it has been a coaster for me. I think Atraxa is the most interesting we've seen in that she has so many builds with her.
I think the Kings follow suit because while they seem to scream Group Hug, but I hear gentle whispers of Stax and control that I'm eager to see.
I'm incredibly impressed with the design on Saskia because as an ETB effect, she does so much as far as leading aggro and really getting across a whole table. I run an Athreos aggro weenie deck and I think she'd easily give him a run for his money.
I don't believe we've seen the ogre formally so I'll omit him for now. So lastly for me is Breya. She's incredibly versatile in build and power, but she's easily the laziest possible design we've seen on any 4C to date (not a big sample but still). Atraxa is similarly offensive but she has a certain elegance and simplicity that I admire. Breya feels like they went through 20 drafts of the card and finally decided that it didn't matter if it was good enough anymore. I loathe the idea of playing across from her because she essentially does whatever she wants, but most of it is done poorly and through a bunch of clunky interactions that will involve a ton of triggers that players will undoubtedly flounder on. If you want a general that does a lot of things, there are whole lists out there that won't revolve around a creature with such a superfluous amount of text. That said, her art is beautiful, and I'd almost run her for that.
Partner is a brilliant mechanic. I can see immediately why they were a bit shy with the generals in terms of creativity and power. Something boring like Bruse Tarl is hugely dangerous as a partner and on his own. None of these are overtly powerful, and none of them are overtly super interesting likely because the task of balancing 15 super interesting and complicated generals that lead to 105 (I think this is the right number) of possible decks and play styles is a ludicrous expectation. I would have loved to see more interesting commanders, especially in place of Akiri or Ishai, but I didn't expect Partner to be remotely possible, and having seen it, I wouldn't dream that Wizards would hand off 15 ridiculous generals to the general public that this product is aimed at. I think of lot of these will prove their mettle over time, including the Boros ones as boring as they may be. I can't wait to see how people begin to brew with them. There's so much to do.
As for the other stuff we've seen, I'm disgustingly impressed. Save for the undaunted wrath, I can't think of any of the cards I don't want to play or see in a match soon. I'm not looking forward to dealing with slews of that Stonehoof Centaur, and I wish more people at Wizards would come to appreciate EDH as more than just Battlecruiser magic where the goal is always something like Avacyn or Iona.
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This reads like an extremely toxic approach to the format and your meta (bolded for emphasis). What I gather from your post is that you don't like playing aggro, group hug, or chaos decks. Moreover, it appears you adamantly dislike playing with others who use those approaches, but correct me if I'm wrong.
We knew 4C commanders were a difficult design space to do well. I'm shocked they went with archetypal models at all; so far I think the 4C commanders we've seen do an amazing job of capturing those archetypes, so kudos to them on that. This isn't the space to discuss the actual viability of archetypes, but I'll reiterate a sentiment heard through these forums and in this sub-forum frequently. There's a good chance these products aren't made with you in mind, and there's an even better chance that your definition of EDH and fun isn't ubiquitous. I appreciate your opinion, but I'd really like to see these threads discuss the strengths of these cards rather than their viability in what sounds like (and again I could be wrong) an extremely tailored and competitive meta.
As for what we've seen, it has been a coaster for me. I think Atraxa is the most interesting we've seen in that she has so many builds with her.
I think the Kings follow suit because while they seem to scream Group Hug, but I hear gentle whispers of Stax and control that I'm eager to see.
I'm incredibly impressed with the design on Saskia because as an ETB effect, she does so much as far as leading aggro and really getting across a whole table. I run an Athreos aggro weenie deck and I think she'd easily give him a run for his money.
I don't believe we've seen the ogre formally so I'll omit him for now. So lastly for me is Breya. She's incredibly versatile in build and power, but she's easily the laziest possible design we've seen on any 4C to date (not a big sample but still). Atraxa is similarly offensive but she has a certain elegance and simplicity that I admire. Breya feels like they went through 20 drafts of the card and finally decided that it didn't matter if it was good enough anymore. I loathe the idea of playing across from her because she essentially does whatever she wants, but most of it is done poorly and through a bunch of clunky interactions that will involve a ton of triggers that players will undoubtedly flounder on. If you want a general that does a lot of things, there are whole lists out there that won't revolve around a creature with such a superfluous amount of text. That said, her art is beautiful, and I'd almost run her for that.
Partner is a brilliant mechanic. I can see immediately why they were a bit shy with the generals in terms of creativity and power. Something boring like Bruse Tarl is hugely dangerous as a partner and on his own. None of these are overtly powerful, and none of them are overtly super interesting likely because the task of balancing 15 super interesting and complicated generals that lead to 105 (I think this is the right number) of possible decks and play styles is a ludicrous expectation. I would have loved to see more interesting commanders, especially in place of Akiri or Ishai, but I didn't expect Partner to be remotely possible, and having seen it, I wouldn't dream that Wizards would hand off 15 ridiculous generals to the general public that this product is aimed at. I think of lot of these will prove their mettle over time, including the Boros ones as boring as they may be. I can't wait to see how people begin to brew with them. There's so much to do.
As for the other stuff we've seen, I'm disgustingly impressed. Save for the undaunted wrath, I can't think of any of the cards I don't want to play or see in a match soon. I'm not looking forward to dealing with slews of that Stonehoof Centaur, and I wish more people at Wizards would come to appreciate EDH as more than just Battlecruiser magic where the goal is always something like Avacyn or Iona.
Oooh, extremely toxic. That's fun.
I don't mind playing against aggro, it's just that generally it's not very strong. Attempting to make it better is an admirable goal I guess, but I don't think saskia gets there. The fact that she doesn't make your creatures any better at getting through combat lines, or more durable, makes her inferior to lots of other commanders (admittedly with fewer colors) like iroas, jor kadeen, gahiji, etc. I won't play her for the same reason I don't play lava axe in limited: only dealing damage is not good enough.
Anyway, I'm not saying aggro SHOULDN'T exist in EDH, or that wizards shouldn't try to make it work, I'm just saying it's just not very effective and I don't think these new cards will change that. Funny enough Saskia' BW partner commands are hella sweet, though.
I do agree that, in terms of the theme of the decks, they did a pretty good job. (Other than altruism. This is still a competitive game, and one that's most frequently played 1v1. No color should be trying to help the opponent.) How well those translated into playable cards is more debatable.
We'll see about the chaos deck: there's chaos, and there's CHAOS. There is powerful chaos that has a point, like maelstrom wanderer (even if I hate playing against him) and then there's stupid, pointless chaos like grip of chaos (I realize grip of chaos can have some strategic benefits but usually it's played in the "screw it, all the chaos cards for no rhyme or reason" deck). The commander is probably fine even if he's not my cup of tea. But here's the thing: chaos isn't a strategy because there's no synergy. With the exception of krark's thumb and chance encounter, I can't think of anything that "pays you off" for playing a bunch of chaos cards. If you're making zombie tribal, there's a reason to play another zombie instead of some other good card: it synergizes with your other cards and becomes better because of them. If you're playing an aggro deck is makes sense to include another cheap, aggressive creature, because it furthers your goal of closing out the game earlier. But if you have a chaos deck, no chaos card becomes better or furthers your game plan more because of the rest of your deck. There's no motivation, from the perspective of making your deck better, to include more chaos other than the sake of it. It's not a strategy.
Maybe the deck will somehow find a way to pay you off for playing chaos cards - maybe "when you play a spell with random targets, copy it" or "when you win a coin flip, deal 4 damage to each opponent" (ok, i guess Karplusan Minotaur also sort of exists, so I guess that's 3). But unless they print a bunch of cards like that, it's not really a strategy. It's just a theme.
I don't have a problem with breya. she's not super creatively designed but she's ok. mostly her ability is overpriced.
I don't disagree about partner. (except that I hate bruse tarl for being a boring retread of last year's boring kalemne - and yet, just like kalemne, somehow being LESS boring than the other RW legend. boggles the mind.)
I am thinking of making Kynaios and Tiro as my commander for a Theros, principally the city state of Meletis. Not sure how it will turn out though; but this has been an idea I have had in my head for a while.
This new 3cmc draw spell seems strong. If 40% of deck is lands, and you're stilling on at least 90 cards left, you should be getting value and learning a ton of what is not atop your deck anymore.
I like that partner allows you to get a little bit of reach if you wanted, say, a Rakdos deck but also wanted Brutal Hordechief in it sooooo badly. Or something like that. You can run all the fuse cards you want.
To verify something on Ludevic, the "you" is me, his controller, right? So others can benefit if they beat each other up (again...not me)? Sounds like fun with monarch running around!
I don't want to be the champion for Ludevic, but he likes puns. He admires the work of others (Seagraf Skaab). He wants to help you become better, which should help him become better. Maybe it's a stretch, but I can fit his ability onto him. I don't know how to build him, but I'd like to give it a try.
The kings are total garbage because I absolutely promise you that if you play them, you will be forced to explain the trigger like 5 times every game.
"Ok, so first I draw... then we can all put a land into play. Then everyone but me draws a card if they- wait up, only if you didn't play a land. You can't draw if you played a land already. Yes, I did draw and play a land, but it's mine so I get to- I know I said that everyone but me gets to draw the card, but I got to draw the card first... well did you want to draw the card? Fine, then pick up the land but no more takebacks. NO, YOU CAN'T DO BOTH, THAT'S JUST FOR ME!"
And then everyone teams up and kills you first. The End.
I understand what the card is meant to do, how the ability achieves that, and why it's all sequenced the way it is, but what a mess.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Maybe the problem isn't that the boros commanders are boring. Maybe boros just isn't your thing.
But Boros can do interesting things, Wizards just refuses to print them on legends, or print them any more because it's "not fun". Like, instead of Anya, Merciless Angel last year, I was hoping for something along the lines of:
{Boros Legend} 2RW
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
When ~ enters the battlefield, if an opponent controls 4 or more lands, you may destroy target nonbasic land that player controls.
When ~ enters the battlefield, if an opponent controls more lands than you, you may search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped.
3/3
But Wizards doesn't want to do that, because LD isn't fun, apparently.
And yeah, I don't find mass LD fun, but targeted nonbasic LD serves an important purpose.
To verify something on Ludevic, the "you" is me, his controller, right? So others can benefit if they beat each other up (again...not me)? Sounds like fun with monarch running around!
Yes. Ludevic is like Edric in that he rewards players for hurting people other than Ludevic's controller.
Maybe the problem isn't that the boros commanders are boring. Maybe boros just isn't your thing.
But Boros can do interesting things, Wizards just refuses to print them on legends, or print them any more because it's "not fun". Like, instead of Anya, Merciless Angel last year, I was hoping for something along the lines of:
{Boros Legend} 2RW
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
When ~ enters the battlefield, if an opponent controls 4 or more lands, you may destroy target nonbasic land that player controls.
When ~ enters the battlefield, if an opponent controls more lands than you, you may search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped.
3/3
But Wizards doesn't want to do that, because LD isn't fun, apparently.
And yeah, I don't find mass LD fun, but targeted nonbasic LD serves an important purpose.
I always find boros commander suggestions interesting. I feel like we're all coming together with a chorus of "Yeah, stop printing crappy boros combat legends, wizards! They're boring and they're bad! Give us one of the cool things boros can do, like ..." and then suddenly everyone is saying something different. Like, that legend looks really boring to me, to be honest. ETB-only effects on commanders always feel like "ok that happened...well now he's just a x/x vanilla, yawn", and while targeted LD is useful I don't feel like I'd want to dedicate my commander to that purpose.
Hopefully this isn't veering into custom card territory, but the sort of boros commander I'd like, in my magical fantasy land, would be:
Sir Equipment Synergy 2RW
creature - human knight
double strike
when SES etbs, tutor up an equipment
3: attach target equipment to target creature
2/2
or maybe
Sir Boros, the Sweetness 1RW
Creature - human badass
first strike 3: put a sunforger counter on Sir Boros 1RW, remove a sunforger counter: do the sunforger thing
2/1
or maybe
sunforger, the sunforger3
artifact - equipment
equipped creature gets +4/+0
RW, unattach sunforger: do the sunforger thing
equip 3
in defiance of all rules of god and man, sunforger can be your commander for no adequately explained reason
But Boros can do interesting things, Wizards just refuses to print them on legends, or print them any more because it's "not fun".
Red and white together can do things that they don't print on boros legends. That's true of every color combination. I could ask for an izzet cammander that siwtches power and toughness or redirects spells, but basically every izzet legend is some combination of cast trigger, draw cards, deal damage. II could ask for a golgari legend that has recycle/null profusion on it or does a good putrid leech impression, but we keep getting deathy deathtouch sacrifice over and over. I could ask for a simic creature that messes with base power/toughness of other creatures or digs through the top few cards of the library, but we keep getting add counter, make mana, draw cards. Not counting Athreos cause 3 life isn't a whole lot, we're just now getting our first orzhov general that brings things back from the graveyard instead of lose some life, gain some life, exile that thing.
For whatever reason, when printing legendary creatures wizards seems to define color pairs, particularly enemy colored pairs, even more narrowly than the intersecting mechanics of two colors. Boros legends don't do everything white and red are capable of together, but that's true of every color pairing, and I don't think it's particularly fair to focus in on boros every single time they print new legendary creatures while they print an equally endless stream of izzet generals that draw cards.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
But Boros can do interesting things, Wizards just refuses to print them on legends, or print them any more because it's "not fun".
Red and white together can do things that they don't print on boros legends. That's true of every color combination. I could ask for an izzet cammander that siwtches power and toughness or redirects spells, but basically every izzet legend is some combination of cast trigger, draw cards, deal damage. II could ask for a golgari legend that has recycle/null profusion on it or does a good putrid leech impression, but we keep getting deathy deathtouch sacrifice over and over. I could ask for a simic creature that messes with base power/toughness of other creatures or digs through the top few cards of the library, but we keep getting add counter, make mana, draw cards. Not counting Athreos cause 3 life isn't a whole lot, we're just now getting our first orzhov general that brings things back from the graveyard instead of lose some life, gain some life, exile that thing.
For whatever reason, when printing legendary creatures wizards seems to define color pairs, particularly enemy colored pairs, even more narrowly than the intersecting mechanics of two colors. Boros legends don't do everything white and red are capable of together, but that's true of every color pairing, and I don't think it's particularly fair to focus in on boros every single time they print new legendary creatures while they print an equally endless stream of izzet generals that draw cards.
Jhoira is very unique. Mizzix is functionally ramp. Also saying "cast trigger" isn't really very fair, a cast trigger could do any number of things - recycle your hand, give something flying, copy the spell, to name a few.
Really the bigger problem is that izzet's commanders, while mostly in a similar vein, are at least mostly pretty good. Boros' commanders are hot trash. And there's even a lot of them! 50% more than izzet! Yet they're still all hot trash that give combat buffs. With a few pseudo-exceptions:
Depala would be super cool...if vehicles and/or dwarves were a real thing is commander. Sadly they are not.
Razia would be super cool...if she cost less than a billion mana in colors that suck at ramping.
Munda would be super cool...if RW allies were a real thing in commander. Sadly they are not.
Basandra...oh my god, this one hurts the most...she would be SO FREAKING COOL if you tweaked it just a teensy tiny bit...just change the "players" to "opponents" and she'd be super sweet, forcing enemies into combat when you hold all the cards and they can't do a thing. She would be AWESOME. But sadly she says "players" in the color combo that most wants to cast instants during combat...so she sucks.
Gisela has her supporters - personally I think she's expensive and boring. Brion I guess doesn't quite fit the mold, but direct damage is stupid-bad in commander. Aurelia fits pretty squarely into the mold of combat-oriented boros commanders, but she's pretty easily the splashiest and most powerful of the bunch so she's decent. Frankly she makes most of the rest of the bunch totally obsolete.
You do make a good point that much of the legends are very tightly restricted even by their own color's standards. It is a little baffling to me. I think only RW is so badly screwed by it, though. Oh no, GU only ramps and draws? Sure, it's boring, but it's also EFFECTIVE. Boros is....not.
I might consider Faerie Artisans for Grimgrin, they do represent the clone/theft theme Grimgrin is going for and it helps that the otherwise-would-be-exiled tokens could be made into good use as sacrifice fodder (and the Faeries themselves could be sacrificed should some undesirable ETB creature be cast).
Got another legend. Looks like we're down to 2, and the ogre is already basically known. So it's just the last GB one.
I'm getting a sense that most of these partner legends fit into 2 camps: the "build around me" ones like silas, tana, tymna, and reyhan, and the generic ones like kraum, trasios, ishai, and vial smasher. It seems to me that the most logical way to pair most of them is to pick a build-around (say, reyhan) and pair him with some generic one as sort of a "mop-up" commander (say, trasios). So then Reyhan carries you early as you establish board presence, synergize, pull off combos, etc...and then if you lose too much stuff and need to lick your wounds and recover, bam, out comes trasios to pump a ton of mana into draw and ramp to get you back on your feet. And he's cheap enough that killing him is pointless.
Cascade, scry by the boatload and defenders. Just a sort of 'drown people in card advantage, win somehow' - deck. Effective? Probably not. Able to win every game? Nah. Fun in the durdle central while people try to figure out what I am even doing, without realizing even *I* don't have an idea of it? You bet.
Absolutely agreed. Though at the very least Black and Blue grant creatures unblockable easy enough, it's still waaaaay too many hoops to jump through.
I'm really starting to feel like I'm the only one who likes the design on the 4c Legendaries
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I only started to get a desire to play Chaos when I got shackled to a playgroup that plays total carebear. I just don't like the commanders for such, so I'm kind of hoping Whiteless is pretty good. Otherwise I'll probably go with Blueless.
Breya I like the design, but man that cost is steeeep. I wish she was a 2/2 and her ability cost 1, sac 1. Or even 2, sac 1. Or just sac 2. 2, sac 2 is really painful, especially since the first and last ability are pretty niche. I like the option to kill stuff or burn people out in response to stuff, but you have to keep a ton of mana up AND somehow find the time to generate a ton of artifacts.
Saskia I think is just boring. And not very powerful.
The kings are group hug. Group hug is the worst thing since bagpipes. (actually I like bagpipes sometimes, so let's go with the worst thing since Star Wars: attack of the clones instead)
The ogre seems fine I guess, but I don't like cascade. Chaos in general does not appeal to me. I prefer to play precisely and carefully, not just overwhelm with value.
Of the other commanders, most of them are at least decent, and some are real cool. The RW ones are a travesty, though, and ludevic is so horrible I'd rather have nothing on the battlefield than him.
I blame most of the failures on the artchetypes. group hug is for people who would rather be playing co-op. chaos is for people who would rather be playing craps. aggro is for people who would rather be playing standard. There's only 2 viable archetypes in the collection. Luckily the partner commanders don't adhere too closely to the archetypes.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I still think Saskia is neat because she's literally combatting the three-or-so-opponents-with-40-life hurdle that aggro faces in this format. That and everyone being afraid to attack.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
What if you're doing the blinking, such as with Eldrazi Displacer or Roon of the Hidden Realm?
And some magical anti-blink land.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
This reads like an extremely toxic approach to the format and your meta (bolded for emphasis). What I gather from your post is that you don't like playing aggro, group hug, or chaos decks. Moreover, it appears you adamantly dislike playing with others who use those approaches, but correct me if I'm wrong.
We knew 4C commanders were a difficult design space to do well. I'm shocked they went with archetypal models at all; so far I think the 4C commanders we've seen do an amazing job of capturing those archetypes, so kudos to them on that. This isn't the space to discuss the actual viability of archetypes, but I'll reiterate a sentiment heard through these forums and in this sub-forum frequently. There's a good chance these products aren't made with you in mind, and there's an even better chance that your definition of EDH and fun isn't ubiquitous. I appreciate your opinion, but I'd really like to see these threads discuss the strengths of these cards rather than their viability in what sounds like (and again I could be wrong) an extremely tailored and competitive meta.
As for what we've seen, it has been a coaster for me. I think Atraxa is the most interesting we've seen in that she has so many builds with her.
I think the Kings follow suit because while they seem to scream Group Hug, but I hear gentle whispers of Stax and control that I'm eager to see.
I'm incredibly impressed with the design on Saskia because as an ETB effect, she does so much as far as leading aggro and really getting across a whole table. I run an Athreos aggro weenie deck and I think she'd easily give him a run for his money.
I don't believe we've seen the ogre formally so I'll omit him for now. So lastly for me is Breya. She's incredibly versatile in build and power, but she's easily the laziest possible design we've seen on any 4C to date (not a big sample but still). Atraxa is similarly offensive but she has a certain elegance and simplicity that I admire. Breya feels like they went through 20 drafts of the card and finally decided that it didn't matter if it was good enough anymore. I loathe the idea of playing across from her because she essentially does whatever she wants, but most of it is done poorly and through a bunch of clunky interactions that will involve a ton of triggers that players will undoubtedly flounder on. If you want a general that does a lot of things, there are whole lists out there that won't revolve around a creature with such a superfluous amount of text. That said, her art is beautiful, and I'd almost run her for that.
Partner is a brilliant mechanic. I can see immediately why they were a bit shy with the generals in terms of creativity and power. Something boring like Bruse Tarl is hugely dangerous as a partner and on his own. None of these are overtly powerful, and none of them are overtly super interesting likely because the task of balancing 15 super interesting and complicated generals that lead to 105 (I think this is the right number) of possible decks and play styles is a ludicrous expectation. I would have loved to see more interesting commanders, especially in place of Akiri or Ishai, but I didn't expect Partner to be remotely possible, and having seen it, I wouldn't dream that Wizards would hand off 15 ridiculous generals to the general public that this product is aimed at. I think of lot of these will prove their mettle over time, including the Boros ones as boring as they may be. I can't wait to see how people begin to brew with them. There's so much to do.
As for the other stuff we've seen, I'm disgustingly impressed. Save for the undaunted wrath, I can't think of any of the cards I don't want to play or see in a match soon. I'm not looking forward to dealing with slews of that Stonehoof Centaur, and I wish more people at Wizards would come to appreciate EDH as more than just Battlecruiser magic where the goal is always something like Avacyn or Iona.
I don't mind playing against aggro, it's just that generally it's not very strong. Attempting to make it better is an admirable goal I guess, but I don't think saskia gets there. The fact that she doesn't make your creatures any better at getting through combat lines, or more durable, makes her inferior to lots of other commanders (admittedly with fewer colors) like iroas, jor kadeen, gahiji, etc. I won't play her for the same reason I don't play lava axe in limited: only dealing damage is not good enough.
Anyway, I'm not saying aggro SHOULDN'T exist in EDH, or that wizards shouldn't try to make it work, I'm just saying it's just not very effective and I don't think these new cards will change that. Funny enough Saskia' BW partner commands are hella sweet, though.
I do agree that, in terms of the theme of the decks, they did a pretty good job. (Other than altruism. This is still a competitive game, and one that's most frequently played 1v1. No color should be trying to help the opponent.) How well those translated into playable cards is more debatable.
We'll see about the chaos deck: there's chaos, and there's CHAOS. There is powerful chaos that has a point, like maelstrom wanderer (even if I hate playing against him) and then there's stupid, pointless chaos like grip of chaos (I realize grip of chaos can have some strategic benefits but usually it's played in the "screw it, all the chaos cards for no rhyme or reason" deck). The commander is probably fine even if he's not my cup of tea. But here's the thing: chaos isn't a strategy because there's no synergy. With the exception of krark's thumb and chance encounter, I can't think of anything that "pays you off" for playing a bunch of chaos cards. If you're making zombie tribal, there's a reason to play another zombie instead of some other good card: it synergizes with your other cards and becomes better because of them. If you're playing an aggro deck is makes sense to include another cheap, aggressive creature, because it furthers your goal of closing out the game earlier. But if you have a chaos deck, no chaos card becomes better or furthers your game plan more because of the rest of your deck. There's no motivation, from the perspective of making your deck better, to include more chaos other than the sake of it. It's not a strategy.
Maybe the deck will somehow find a way to pay you off for playing chaos cards - maybe "when you play a spell with random targets, copy it" or "when you win a coin flip, deal 4 damage to each opponent" (ok, i guess Karplusan Minotaur also sort of exists, so I guess that's 3). But unless they print a bunch of cards like that, it's not really a strategy. It's just a theme.
I don't have a problem with breya. she's not super creatively designed but she's ok. mostly her ability is overpriced.
I don't disagree about partner. (except that I hate bruse tarl for being a boring retread of last year's boring kalemne - and yet, just like kalemne, somehow being LESS boring than the other RW legend. boggles the mind.)You got me interested - how on earth is that possible? If you're giving them free cards AND ramp, what can you possibly be denying them?
And even color-wise, I feel like black has to be one of your best stax colors. the abyss? nether void? tutoring for all your other gross ones?
Seriously, what am I missing here?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I like that partner allows you to get a little bit of reach if you wanted, say, a Rakdos deck but also wanted Brutal Hordechief in it sooooo badly. Or something like that. You can run all the fuse cards you want.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
I don't want to be the champion for Ludevic, but he likes puns. He admires the work of others (Seagraf Skaab). He wants to help you become better, which should help him become better. Maybe it's a stretch, but I can fit his ability onto him. I don't know how to build him, but I'd like to give it a try.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
The Kings do everything my entire phelddagrif deck does... In one card. It's so good for the group hug deck I have. Plus an extra color!
But... But my hippo. I can't put that face away ;.;
"Ok, so first I draw... then we can all put a land into play. Then everyone but me draws a card if they- wait up, only if you didn't play a land. You can't draw if you played a land already. Yes, I did draw and play a land, but it's mine so I get to- I know I said that everyone but me gets to draw the card, but I got to draw the card first... well did you want to draw the card? Fine, then pick up the land but no more takebacks. NO, YOU CAN'T DO BOTH, THAT'S JUST FOR ME!"
And then everyone teams up and kills you first. The End.
I understand what the card is meant to do, how the ability achieves that, and why it's all sequenced the way it is, but what a mess.
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
When ~ enters the battlefield, if an opponent controls 4 or more lands, you may destroy target nonbasic land that player controls.
When ~ enters the battlefield, if an opponent controls more lands than you, you may search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped.
3/3
But Wizards doesn't want to do that, because LD isn't fun, apparently.
And yeah, I don't find mass LD fun, but targeted nonbasic LD serves an important purpose.
Yes. Ludevic is like Edric in that he rewards players for hurting people other than Ludevic's controller.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Hopefully this isn't veering into custom card territory, but the sort of boros commander I'd like, in my magical fantasy land, would be:
Sir Equipment Synergy 2RW
creature - human knight
double strike
when SES etbs, tutor up an equipment
3: attach target equipment to target creature
2/2
or maybe
Sir Boros, the Sweetness 1RW
Creature - human badass
first strike
3: put a sunforger counter on Sir Boros
1RW, remove a sunforger counter: do the sunforger thing
2/1
or maybe
sunforger, the sunforger 3
artifact - equipment
equipped creature gets +4/+0
RW, unattach sunforger: do the sunforger thing
equip 3
in defiance of all rules of god and man, sunforger can be your commander for no adequately explained reason
You know, something like that.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Red and white together can do things that they don't print on boros legends. That's true of every color combination. I could ask for an izzet cammander that siwtches power and toughness or redirects spells, but basically every izzet legend is some combination of cast trigger, draw cards, deal damage. II could ask for a golgari legend that has recycle/null profusion on it or does a good putrid leech impression, but we keep getting deathy deathtouch sacrifice over and over. I could ask for a simic creature that messes with base power/toughness of other creatures or digs through the top few cards of the library, but we keep getting add counter, make mana, draw cards. Not counting Athreos cause 3 life isn't a whole lot, we're just now getting our first orzhov general that brings things back from the graveyard instead of lose some life, gain some life, exile that thing.
For whatever reason, when printing legendary creatures wizards seems to define color pairs, particularly enemy colored pairs, even more narrowly than the intersecting mechanics of two colors. Boros legends don't do everything white and red are capable of together, but that's true of every color pairing, and I don't think it's particularly fair to focus in on boros every single time they print new legendary creatures while they print an equally endless stream of izzet generals that draw cards.
Really the bigger problem is that izzet's commanders, while mostly in a similar vein, are at least mostly pretty good. Boros' commanders are hot trash. And there's even a lot of them! 50% more than izzet! Yet they're still all hot trash that give combat buffs. With a few pseudo-exceptions:
Depala would be super cool...if vehicles and/or dwarves were a real thing is commander. Sadly they are not.
Razia would be super cool...if she cost less than a billion mana in colors that suck at ramping.
Munda would be super cool...if RW allies were a real thing in commander. Sadly they are not.
Basandra...oh my god, this one hurts the most...she would be SO FREAKING COOL if you tweaked it just a teensy tiny bit...just change the "players" to "opponents" and she'd be super sweet, forcing enemies into combat when you hold all the cards and they can't do a thing. She would be AWESOME. But sadly she says "players" in the color combo that most wants to cast instants during combat...so she sucks.
Gisela has her supporters - personally I think she's expensive and boring. Brion I guess doesn't quite fit the mold, but direct damage is stupid-bad in commander. Aurelia fits pretty squarely into the mold of combat-oriented boros commanders, but she's pretty easily the splashiest and most powerful of the bunch so she's decent. Frankly she makes most of the rest of the bunch totally obsolete.
You do make a good point that much of the legends are very tightly restricted even by their own color's standards. It is a little baffling to me. I think only RW is so badly screwed by it, though. Oh no, GU only ramps and draws? Sure, it's boring, but it's also EFFECTIVE. Boros is....not.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm getting a sense that most of these partner legends fit into 2 camps: the "build around me" ones like silas, tana, tymna, and reyhan, and the generic ones like kraum, trasios, ishai, and vial smasher. It seems to me that the most logical way to pair most of them is to pick a build-around (say, reyhan) and pair him with some generic one as sort of a "mop-up" commander (say, trasios). So then Reyhan carries you early as you establish board presence, synergize, pull off combos, etc...and then if you lose too much stuff and need to lick your wounds and recover, bam, out comes trasios to pump a ton of mana into draw and ramp to get you back on your feet. And he's cheap enough that killing him is pointless.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6