The way it is worded has always been used as "the game object which is the source of this effect". The limitation you're suggesting wouldn't be consistent with existing design and rules, and would create a completely extraneous exception to how everything else works. It would need different wording to account for that, not to suddenly ignore the precedent for just this one card.
Not sure how concerned we are with 14-card combos. It also might interest you that the new Avacyn will never be played “under current rules.” What this means remains a mystery.
Under the current Comprehensive Rules, 'transform Archangel Avacyn' means 'transform this card'. When a card transforms, it does not leave the battlefield, and does not become a new object (unless specifically stated otherwise, such as the Magic Origins Planeswalker cycle).
This means that if there are multiple transform triggers for Avacyn, she would transform back & forth on the following upkeep multiple times.
What Tabak is referring to has two possible meanings.
First, they regard this as a problem, and will be changing how 'card name' and transform interact. In effect, it would become 'transform this card named Archangel Avacyn', and additional transform triggers would fail to meet the named criteria, and would remain as Avacyn, the Purifier.
The second option is Tabak is being a smartass, and referring to the Comprehensive Rules update included with every M:tG expansion to define new rules terms etc, such as including the Skulk ability word and Delirium keyword.
I'm guessing that multiple transformations work and they regard it is a weird, unintuitive situation, but not something that will happen frequently enough to matter unless someone is doing it on purpose. Because of that one turn indestructibility thing, it actually takes a bit of thought to get multiple triggers at once. It's not super difficult, but not something 12 year old Timmy is going to do by accident often trying to play a bunch of angels for fun.
That being said, how long are Avacyn and Tragic Arrogance together in standard? Like 6 months?
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
You can run the new Avacyn with those type of spells that prevent damage to your creatures. Such as Rune-Tail's Essence, [Mark of Asylum, [card][Light of Sanction/card]. That way you can run all the global burn spells.
Sorta flavorful but you can the Stuffy doll like cards then give it Martyrdom. Sorta becomes a bootleg Blasphemous Act depending on the amount of creatures on the field... but to th opponents face lol.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
This card is definately amazing! Will she definately be Boros identity in EDH, despite not costing or using red mana? Giving her Lifelink before she transforms would also be amazing.. Basilisk Collar anyone?
That would be pretty interesting if she could flip back and forth with multiple triggers, but I kind of doubt it. On the plus side, her ETB when transforming back and forth does make sure she doesn't die to her own triggers if, for some reason, the AtP damage hurts AA.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=227061
"Activating Bloodline Keeper's last ability multiple times will cause it to transform into Lord of Lineage, then back again, and so on."
Bloodline Keeper is worded exactly the same as Avacyn's - it's just an activated one instead of triggered.
The key wording in the gatherer ruling is "then back again". So currently, she'd flip multiple times.
This card is definately amazing! Will she definately be Boros identity in EDH, despite not costing or using red mana? Giving her Lifelink before she transforms would also be amazing.. Basilisk Collar anyone?
Potential method for abusing her: Multiple creature deaths will create multiple delayed triggers, which will transform her back and forth when they all resolve, potentially creating multiple damage triggers and even leaving her in her non-Purifier state to set up more triggers again.
I thought Avacyn only transforms once, which is at the next upkeep, no matter how many deaths there are.
Potential method for abusing her: Multiple creature deaths will create multiple delayed triggers, which will transform her back and forth when they all resolve, potentially creating multiple damage triggers and even leaving her in her non-Purifier state to set up more triggers again.
I thought Avacyn only transforms once, which is at the next upkeep, no matter how many deaths there are.
Every time one of your creatures dies she triggers, so as far as I can see that means she'll transform once per trigger; so if three creatures die she'll do 6 damage to your opponents and each other creature.
I think I've found my WR commander.
Does that work? Multiple creatures die and multiple triggers go on the stack, sure, but the trigger refers to a card called Archangel Avacyn, so it will transform only so long as the creature is called Archangel Avacyn, correct?
If it does indeed work like that, this new avacyn would do pretty well with mass tokens, such as including secure the wastes, decree of justice or white sun's zenith for example. Deliberately wipe out your own tokens and prepare to see a boros purphoros, god of the forge type effect. Nuking 27 of your own tokens would equate to killing all opponents at once (while not effective or ideal, its interesting to note). Is there any creatures that can sack themselves to bring itself back, like a loyal retainers type effect but that can target itself? Nothing comes to mind personally. In all honesty, she seems to be ideal for a white/red draw-go flash-control thats more defensive than blue. On the bright side, boros has mld for days so its not short of any immediate win conditions...
I misses that you can stack a bunch of triggers, and that does make her quite a bit better. I wouldn't put her on Purphoros level though, considering she is a lot easier to remove before she can go off.
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
@Lallo: There's a not unreasonable list of transform creatures that transform as new Avacyn does, and the Gatherer rulings for them state that they will transform multiple times. The creatures in question, and how you would transform them multiple times, are as follows:
Ludevic's Test Subject: Stack enough instances of his counter-adding ability such that 5 counters are added after he transforms. Bloodline Keeper: Just activate his ability multiple times. Thraben Sentry: Have multiple creatures die at the same time. It's worth noting that the Sentry's transform is a 'may', letting you keep it transformed as you choose. Chosen of Markov: While the Gatherer rulings doesn't mention it, if you can untap Chosen in response to it's ability, you could activate it again. Civilized Scholar: Again, the Gatherer rulings don't mention it, but you could untap Scholar in response to it's ability to activate it again.
Needless to say, they would either need to make specific errata for Avacyn/transform cards in general to avoid these scenarios, or they would have to change what [Cardname] means, which has the potential to have widespread implications for previous cards (ala Necrotic Ooze and other cards mentioned previously).
@Lallo: There's a not unreasonable list of transform creatures that transform as new Avacyn does, and the Gatherer rulings for them state that they will transform multiple times. The creatures in question, and how you would transform them multiple times, are as follows:
Ludevic's Test Subject: Stack enough instances of his counter-adding ability such that 5 counters are added after he transforms. Bloodline Keeper: Just activate his ability multiple times. Thraben Sentry: Have multiple creatures die at the same time. It's worth noting that the Sentry's transform is a 'may', letting you keep it transformed as you choose. Chosen of Markov: While the Gatherer rulings doesn't mention it, if you can untap Chosen in response to it's ability, you could activate it again. Civilized Scholar: Again, the Gatherer rulings don't mention it, but you could untap Scholar in response to it's ability to activate it again.
Needless to say, they would either need to make specific errata for Avacyn/transform cards in general to avoid these scenarios, or they would have to change what [Cardname] means, which has the potential to have widespread implications for previous cards (ala Necrotic Ooze and other cards mentioned previously).
Okay, you're right, which is a really odd thing. It seems like wizards has usually been on the other side of this kind of ruling, but cool. I guess we finally have a good rw commander.
In most cases it doesn't have any major use in terms of gameplay (Civilzed Scholar being the only one it's potentially worthwhile to do it with, and you could just use any Merfolk Looter effect in his place if you wanted to), so it's not something that bares correcting for by any major errata. These people gave us Boros Reckoner and Blasphemous Act in standard for awhile, so I wouldn't put it past them for New Avacyn's shenanigans to be a deliberate design choice.
I read Tabak's replies as "I'm not answering rules questions about previewed cards yet" in his typical snarky and sarcastic fashion. Unless there is a major change to the rules for transforming coming with SOI, it should be safe to assume that she works the same mechanically as any other card under the current rules. If there's a change to that we'll hear about it before too long, probably when the Mechanics of SOI article is released on the first day of previews.
It does seem like a rather odd thing for the card itself to work like that when it comes to multiple creature deaths. Like another user said, 27 deaths would be enough to kill everyone on the table and burn the world.
There probably needs to be an errata for this card to prevent that. Have 3 creatures out is really easy. Then it deals 6 damage to everything which is pretty neat.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
And if creatures die during your upkeep while her transformation trigger is on the stack and she is currently on her Archangel face, additional triggers will apply on the following turn even if she ends on her Purifier face. Shenanigans!
It does seem like a rather odd thing for the card itself to work like that when it comes to multiple creature deaths. Like another user said, 27 deaths would be enough to kill everyone on the table and burn the world.
There probably needs to be an errata for this card to prevent that. Have 3 creatures out is really easy. Then it deals 6 damage to everything which is pretty neat.
Well, you still need to cast them and then kill them . Purphoros needs 20 creatures, without deaths to kill whole table.. So I highly doubt, casting 27 creatures and then sacrificing them somehow to kill whole table will be errata-ed somehow. It requires like what, 4-5 cards at least? Not broken..
I read Tabak's replies as "I'm not answering rules questions about previewed cards yet" in his typical snarky and sarcastic fashion. Unless there is a major change to the rules for transforming coming with SOI, it should be safe to assume that she works the same mechanically as any other card under the current rules. If there's a change to that we'll hear about it before too long, probably when the Mechanics of SOI article is released on the first day of previews.
I'm inclined to think they'll change the rules for Transform. It seems like a mechanical fluke that they'd want to address before returning to DFCs. From a flavor perspective, it often makes no sense, and is not very straight-forward for new players, and all in all seems somewhat unintentional (if the other side doesn't have a way to flip it, it seems to follow that... it isn't supposed to be flipped!)
There's no denying that that's the way the rules currently work, of course. I just think its one of the mechanical conflicts that they'd want to resolve before bringing the mechanic back. Flip cards have been troublesome for a number of reasons, so it kind of surprises me that they'd return to them as they are. They already had to work around them for flip-walkers.
Does anyone else see her two sides being in major conflict? Like, you flash her into play to protect your tokens/utility dudes, and sure they live for a turn. Then you pass, another opponent Doom Blades one, and then she flips and the rest of them die anyway. Feels bad. The first side is so good but I kind of hate the reverse.
I read Tabak's replies as "I'm not answering rules questions about previewed cards yet" in his typical snarky and sarcastic fashion. Unless there is a major change to the rules for transforming coming with SOI, it should be safe to assume that she works the same mechanically as any other card under the current rules. If there's a change to that we'll hear about it before too long, probably when the Mechanics of SOI article is released on the first day of previews.
I'm inclined to think they'll change the rules for Transform. It seems like a mechanical fluke that they'd want to address before returning to DFCs. From a flavor perspective, it often makes no sense, and is not very straight-forward for new players, and all in all seems somewhat unintentional (if the other side doesn't have a way to flip it, it seems to follow that... it isn't supposed to be flipped!)
There's no denying that that's the way the rules currently work, of course. I just think its one of the mechanical conflicts that they'd want to resolve before bringing the mechanic back. Flip cards have been troublesome for a number of reasons, so it kind of surprises me that they'd return to them as they are. They already had to work around them for flip-walkers.
I definitely agree with this; as mechanically cool and complex as Avacyn the Incredibly Temperamental would be, it's also incredibly unflavouful and confusing in a way that ruins what is supposed to be a flavour-win. I didn't see Tabak's comment before making my earlier post, and his second quote makes me 99% convinced that transform will have a slight mechanical makeover.
Does anyone else see her two sides being in major conflict? Like, you flash her into play to protect your tokens/utility dudes, and sure they live for a turn. Then you pass, another opponent Doom Blades one, and then she flips and the rest of them die anyway. Feels bad. The first side is so good but I kind of hate the reverse.
Well, it'd be a bit of a flavour fail if a card designed around a protector that betrays those she was meant to protect didn't have some conflict between her two halves. :>
Mechanically, though, I think that was purposefully done to balance what is an abo-freaking-ridiculous bomb of a card. If you have Avacyn's red half dealing damage to only your opponent's creatures, then you have an efficiently costed beater that can ambush attacker, save your army from removal, and attack as a Serra Angel before flipping into a larger creature that wipes half your opponent's board. I think it was designed so that if you only play it when you have very little board presence if any, it's pretty fair for what it does, and if it flips, it's likely an upside (and you probably had to flip it yourself). But if you play it like a giant flying Rootborn Defenses into your huge army, you better be ready with the Cloudshift/Boros Charm etc. when someone Gut Shots your soldier token, or there's going to be a massacre.
With great power comes a great risk of getting blown the hell out. If you want to play with a crazy powerful board-protector, you need to play around the trigger that kills your own board. It's the only good strong-card-with-a-drawback that they've printed in a while.
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Most Used (of many dozens) EDH Decks:
Brago, King Eternal - Stax
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - Aggro Combo
Wort, the Raidmother - Spellslinger Swarm Control
Animar, Soul of Elements - Tempo Combo
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Spellslinger
Exodia the Forbidden One:
Oona, Queen of the Fae - Combowins.dec
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
That being said, how long are Avacyn and Tragic Arrogance together in standard? Like 6 months?
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Sorta flavorful but you can the Stuffy doll like cards then give it Martyrdom. Sorta becomes a bootleg Blasphemous Act depending on the amount of creatures on the field... but to th opponents face lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
RBGKresh, The BloodbraidedRBG
GBWKarador Spirit TribalGBW
UUUTaniwha SillinessUUU
MTGO Username: Aukan
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=227061
"Activating Bloodline Keeper's last ability multiple times will cause it to transform into Lord of Lineage, then back again, and so on."
Bloodline Keeper is worded exactly the same as Avacyn's - it's just an activated one instead of triggered.
The key wording in the gatherer ruling is "then back again". So currently, she'd flip multiple times.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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RBGKresh, The BloodbraidedRBG
GBWKarador Spirit TribalGBW
UUUTaniwha SillinessUUU
MTGO Username: Aukan
I thought Avacyn only transforms once, which is at the next upkeep, no matter how many deaths there are.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
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"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Does that work? Multiple creatures die and multiple triggers go on the stack, sure, but the trigger refers to a card called Archangel Avacyn, so it will transform only so long as the creature is called Archangel Avacyn, correct?
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Ludevic's Test Subject: Stack enough instances of his counter-adding ability such that 5 counters are added after he transforms.
Bloodline Keeper: Just activate his ability multiple times.
Thraben Sentry: Have multiple creatures die at the same time. It's worth noting that the Sentry's transform is a 'may', letting you keep it transformed as you choose.
Chosen of Markov: While the Gatherer rulings doesn't mention it, if you can untap Chosen in response to it's ability, you could activate it again.
Civilized Scholar: Again, the Gatherer rulings don't mention it, but you could untap Scholar in response to it's ability to activate it again.
Needless to say, they would either need to make specific errata for Avacyn/transform cards in general to avoid these scenarios, or they would have to change what [Cardname] means, which has the potential to have widespread implications for previous cards (ala Necrotic Ooze and other cards mentioned previously).
RRR - Bosh's School of Hard(cover) Knocks
Okay, you're right, which is a really odd thing. It seems like wizards has usually been on the other side of this kind of ruling, but cool. I guess we finally have a good rw commander.
RRR - Bosh's School of Hard(cover) Knocks
"You killed my friend! I'm so angry I'm going to kill everybody."
"Oh, you killed a second friend of mine? In that cast, we're cool."
"Wait, you killed a third one of my friends? I hate you! Burn everything!"
"You killed a fourth friend? Okay, I can calm down now."
"Killing a fifth one, though, is going too far. Blood and fire!"
Etc.
Edit: Seems like the rules may change.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
There probably needs to be an errata for this card to prevent that. Have 3 creatures out is really easy. Then it deals 6 damage to everything which is pretty neat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Well, you still need to cast them and then kill them . Purphoros needs 20 creatures, without deaths to kill whole table.. So I highly doubt, casting 27 creatures and then sacrificing them somehow to kill whole table will be errata-ed somehow. It requires like what, 4-5 cards at least? Not broken..
I'm inclined to think they'll change the rules for Transform. It seems like a mechanical fluke that they'd want to address before returning to DFCs. From a flavor perspective, it often makes no sense, and is not very straight-forward for new players, and all in all seems somewhat unintentional (if the other side doesn't have a way to flip it, it seems to follow that... it isn't supposed to be flipped!)
There's no denying that that's the way the rules currently work, of course. I just think its one of the mechanical conflicts that they'd want to resolve before bringing the mechanic back. Flip cards have been troublesome for a number of reasons, so it kind of surprises me that they'd return to them as they are. They already had to work around them for flip-walkers.
Does anyone else see her two sides being in major conflict? Like, you flash her into play to protect your tokens/utility dudes, and sure they live for a turn. Then you pass, another opponent Doom Blades one, and then she flips and the rest of them die anyway. Feels bad. The first side is so good but I kind of hate the reverse.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I definitely agree with this; as mechanically cool and complex as Avacyn the Incredibly Temperamental would be, it's also incredibly unflavouful and confusing in a way that ruins what is supposed to be a flavour-win. I didn't see Tabak's comment before making my earlier post, and his second quote makes me 99% convinced that transform will have a slight mechanical makeover.
Well, it'd be a bit of a flavour fail if a card designed around a protector that betrays those she was meant to protect didn't have some conflict between her two halves. :>
Mechanically, though, I think that was purposefully done to balance what is an abo-freaking-ridiculous bomb of a card. If you have Avacyn's red half dealing damage to only your opponent's creatures, then you have an efficiently costed beater that can ambush attacker, save your army from removal, and attack as a Serra Angel before flipping into a larger creature that wipes half your opponent's board. I think it was designed so that if you only play it when you have very little board presence if any, it's pretty fair for what it does, and if it flips, it's likely an upside (and you probably had to flip it yourself). But if you play it like a giant flying Rootborn Defenses into your huge army, you better be ready with the Cloudshift/Boros Charm etc. when someone Gut Shots your soldier token, or there's going to be a massacre.
With great power comes a great risk of getting blown the hell out. If you want to play with a crazy powerful board-protector, you need to play around the trigger that kills your own board. It's the only good strong-card-with-a-drawback that they've printed in a while.