How often do folks feel that we'll be able to pay colorless-required activation costs? I'm liking some of the cards but I'm not sure how often I'll be able to use them.
Besides pains, I don't think many of my lands are tapping for colorless. I like mana rocks, but some of them (signets, in particular) only tap for colored mana.
How many sources of colorless do you think are required to be consistent?
Let's all agree that there is 0 reason to ever run Cancel ever ever ever again.
Also, you can't Merchant Scroll for the new counter (actually relevant).
True. But I find most people that actually run Merchant Scroll also run Mana Drain, Force of Will and Pact of Negation and those tend to be the most common Scroll targets. I find Scroll to be a very underplayed tutor that only finds its way into the better decks.
Though this observation is based off limited experience with a limited sample size.
How often do folks feel that we'll be able to pay colorless-required activation costs? I'm liking some of the cards but I'm not sure how often I'll be able to use them.
Besides pains, I don't think many of my lands are tapping for colorless. I like mana rocks, but some of them (signets, in particular) only tap for colored mana.
How many sources of colorless do you think are required to be consistent?
There was a whole thread for this, but there are several considerations. Are you running "any color" rocks in a non-5color deck? If so, CI rules mean they can produce C.
I find my mono-colored decks tend to have a high saturation of basics, so lets look at those.
Otherwise, I feel pretty confident. Take my kurkesh deck. 20/39? lands are mountains. 5 of the remaining 14 are fetches, 1 doesn't tap for mana. That leaves 8 lands that produce C, plus artifacts (4--5 of them). That's actually a fair amount of sources. I'll probably add the new scry mana rock too, since kurkesh can copy that. If I feel I need more C, I may add a wastes in place of a mountain, so that all of my fetches, solemn, the hart, and the bauble, suddenly can find a source of C.
On the opposite spectrum, my chainer deck (higher power), has 8 lands that tap for C, and 6 rocks that could.
My Karador deck, which is the most color starved, still has 5 sources. Trostani has 10 lands.
All of this built standard, with no modifications to handle C costs. Trostani will probably pick up a mirrorpool, but then, I expect lots of my decks to do that.
Let's all agree that there is 0 reason to ever run Cancel ever ever ever again.
Also, you can't Merchant Scroll for the new counter (actually relevant).
"ever ever ever again" implies that there was a reason to run Cancel in the first place.
I have won a game from casting Cancel, stopping a Craterhoof Behemoth alpha strike and then turning the game around. This was before my pauper Child of Alara deck got it's neccesary better tools, mind.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I have won a game from casting Cancel, stopping a Craterhoof Behemoth alpha strike and then turning the game around. This was before my pauper Child of Alara deck got it's neccesary better tools, mind.
A counterspell that you can afford to cast is always good when you need it but I think the point is, we now have enough commonly printed and therefore cheap (in terms of $) counters that Cancel can be replaced completely from all decks. And I think this has been true for awhile. He might have been exaggerating a little for effect by saying there was never a reason to run the card.
Vhati il-dal is happy to see it, for one. The removal clause is a bit narrow, and I can't think of too many x/1 or 1/x commanders (HA HA Doran!), but a colorless counterspell that hits a large portion of wraths is amazing.
Instant speed token generation is nothing grandiose, but not a bad pickup either.
Warping Wail is pretty cool, I'm not sure how good it is though.
Probably very meta-dependent, if you have a lot of dangerous tiny creatures or high powered sorceries flying around it seems like an all star. Hell, an instant chump blocker isn't terrible either.
Choose one -
- Exile target creature with power or toughness 1 or less.
- Counter target sorcery spell.
- Put a 1/1 colorless Eldrazi Scion creature token onto the battlefield. It has "Sacrifice this creature: Add C to your mana pool."
That is potentially a disadvantage 5c decks have if there is no errata for Wastes in the coming set since they will not be able to funnel Chromatic Lantern or Gilded Lotus etc into colors outside their CI to pay for those kinds of spells.
That is potentially a disadvantage 5c decks have if there is no errata for Wastes in the coming set since they will not be able to funnel Chromatic Lantern or Gilded Lotus etc into colors outside their CI to pay for those kinds of spells.
Eh, they already complain about their manabase's consistency. Nothing new!
Warping Wail is one of the best cards spoiled so far. No really! Colorless counter for non blue (or extra for blue in my Edric deck!), ramp for non green. All in a neat little uncommon 2cc package. The removal is also ok, takes care of those goats...
A number of people are calling weeping wail a ramp card, and I have to disagree. I think if you're using it for ramp, you're doing it a bit wrong. First of, 2 mana for 1 ritual (next turn, sure) isn't great value, when you could just drop a mana rock and have that mana available for longer. Secondly, it requires a C, which makes it a bit trickier to cast T2.
I think Instant speed token generation is still a big thing (Sprout Swarm is good), but that looking at it simply as a poor man's next turn ritual is wonky... it'll get used that way, sure, but it's not the goal of the card, else you could just drop a Mindstone the turn before with the same 2 mana.
Why would you specify nonblue? Last I checked U would love a ramp spell that also acts as removal. Imo the counter mode is the weakest.
Of the 3 effects, every color has more access to some form of removal or ramp, whereas colorless counterspells are considerably more rare. While extremely limited, sorceries covers a large amount of wrath effects, as well as a couple game enders like T&N or exsanguinate. I think that makes the counter mode the most relevant, though I won't say that the removal mode is bad by any stretch.
A blue deck would not care about the counter mode much, but would like the removal aspect the most, with the modal opportunity of having an extra counter, or instant speed token.
===
In the end, there are 3 useful modes, none of which are earthshattering, but all are solid. And since the token is 'modal' as well, it almost gives the spell a 4th implied mode, which is cool. call it 3.5.
I've been messing around with building some sort of a Kruphix, God of Horizons mana doubler list that kills the table with a Blue Sun's, and I think that it finally gave me the shove to get it done.
7 mana is a lot though, it'll see some play. Matter reshaper is great for any sac/recur value deck. Card draw is easier with something like wall of blossoms, but the capability to get free stuff is rather nice. Especially if you can stack lands on top in non-green as a ramp option.
Zendikar Resurgent in a combo elves list is a scary thought. It also further enables Palinchron combos (Why is that card legal again? For all the fun it provides?).
On the other hand, it'll make big plays even bigger and is in general an amazing card for EDH. So it'll be interesting to see, just not with those two specific interactions.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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StaffI've seen it sadly.
Besides pains, I don't think many of my lands are tapping for colorless. I like mana rocks, but some of them (signets, in particular) only tap for colored mana.
How many sources of colorless do you think are required to be consistent?
Draft my Peasant Cube.
True. But I find most people that actually run Merchant Scroll also run Mana Drain, Force of Will and Pact of Negation and those tend to be the most common Scroll targets. I find Scroll to be a very underplayed tutor that only finds its way into the better decks.
Though this observation is based off limited experience with a limited sample size.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
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StaffThere was a whole thread for this, but there are several considerations. Are you running "any color" rocks in a non-5color deck? If so, CI rules mean they can produce C.
I find my mono-colored decks tend to have a high saturation of basics, so lets look at those.
Otherwise, I feel pretty confident. Take my kurkesh deck. 20/39? lands are mountains. 5 of the remaining 14 are fetches, 1 doesn't tap for mana. That leaves 8 lands that produce C, plus artifacts (4--5 of them). That's actually a fair amount of sources. I'll probably add the new scry mana rock too, since kurkesh can copy that. If I feel I need more C, I may add a wastes in place of a mountain, so that all of my fetches, solemn, the hart, and the bauble, suddenly can find a source of C.
On the opposite spectrum, my chainer deck (higher power), has 8 lands that tap for C, and 6 rocks that could.
My Karador deck, which is the most color starved, still has 5 sources. Trostani has 10 lands.
All of this built standard, with no modifications to handle C costs. Trostani will probably pick up a mirrorpool, but then, I expect lots of my decks to do that.
===
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I have won a game from casting Cancel, stopping a Craterhoof Behemoth alpha strike and then turning the game around. This was before my pauper Child of Alara deck got it's neccesary better tools, mind.
Not sure about the no exceptions. There are always things like Supreme Verdict....
A counterspell that you can afford to cast is always good when you need it but I think the point is, we now have enough commonly printed and therefore cheap (in terms of $) counters that Cancel can be replaced completely from all decks. And I think this has been true for awhile. He might have been exaggerating a little for effect by saying there was never a reason to run the card.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
But both, barring being countered, will kill/counter anything that you point it at. They are both catch-all answers, just not the best ones.
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StaffColorless charm? COLORLESS CHARM!
Vhati il-dal is happy to see it, for one. The removal clause is a bit narrow, and I can't think of too many x/1 or 1/x commanders (HA HA Doran!), but a colorless counterspell that hits a large portion of wraths is amazing.
Instant speed token generation is nothing grandiose, but not a bad pickup either.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Probably very meta-dependent, if you have a lot of dangerous tiny creatures or high powered sorceries flying around it seems like an all star. Hell, an instant chump blocker isn't terrible either.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
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StaffWhy would you specify nonblue? Last I checked U would love a ramp spell that also acts as removal. Imo the counter mode is the weakest.
Eh, they already complain about their manabase's consistency. Nothing new!
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
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StaffI think Instant speed token generation is still a big thing (Sprout Swarm is good), but that looking at it simply as a poor man's next turn ritual is wonky... it'll get used that way, sure, but it's not the goal of the card, else you could just drop a Mindstone the turn before with the same 2 mana.
Of the 3 effects, every color has more access to some form of removal or ramp, whereas colorless counterspells are considerably more rare. While extremely limited, sorceries covers a large amount of wrath effects, as well as a couple game enders like T&N or exsanguinate. I think that makes the counter mode the most relevant, though I won't say that the removal mode is bad by any stretch.
A blue deck would not care about the counter mode much, but would like the removal aspect the most, with the modal opportunity of having an extra counter, or instant speed token.
===
In the end, there are 3 useful modes, none of which are earthshattering, but all are solid. And since the token is 'modal' as well, it almost gives the spell a 4th implied mode, which is cool. call it 3.5.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Anybody going to try out Zendikar Resurgent?
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
My Boros Stax list will have zero problems casting <> cards due to the huge amount of artifact ramp it plays. I'm quite excited for more toys for it.
amazingly epic sig courtesy of DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Planes.
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StaffRetired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
On the other hand, it'll make big plays even bigger and is in general an amazing card for EDH. So it'll be interesting to see, just not with those two specific interactions.