Fair enough. I should have said more viable options. A quick search shows 151 vs 172 with the wording "destroy target land" vs " destroy target artifact" but 90% of either of those groups of cards will never see play.
The thing is, when trying to combat ramp in any form, trading one for one with their cards is just going to put you behind the table very very quickly. This is exacerbated in land ramp, since you'll frequently have them dropping things like Skyshroud Claim, where "destroy target land" is only going to take out half a card. In multiplayer, what's needed to combat ramp is some form of mass destruction. And for that, "Destroy all artifacts" outstrips "Destroy all lands."
Aside: Interestingly, at least to me, it was closer than I was initially expecting. Putting together "Destroy all artifacts", "Destroy all permanents", and "Exile all artifacts" I got 23 results that actually performed the job as stated, with an extra 7 if you include ones based on CMC. "Destroy all lands" got a total of 12, with two more from Soulscour and Worldslayer, for a total of 14. I'm a bit surprised the difference is less than 10, even if large portions of both lists are jank.
Personally, I like Bane of Progress, since it makes people think before loading their non-green decks up with tons of ramp. The trouble, obviously, is that it doesn't force the green decks to make the same decision. A Keldon Firebomber that scaled to the gamestate (something like "Each player sacrifices lands until they control the same number as the person with the least") would, I feel, help balance the equation.
It certainly feels like WotC is sort of using the same strategy they've been applying to Standard and Limited: make creatures and especially combat more relevant to diversify the format
I don't think they're going to go about this as strongly as they have for "regular" magic but I'm curious to see if it will work out: I'm very happy with the ways things have been going in Limited (I don't play T2 but I do like reading up on what's going on in it) so I'm hopeful it'll have positive ramifications in EDH
They showed up under the search for "Destroy all/each permanent", so yeah. Forgot to mention I'd run that one too, but the only one that met the criteria that showed up on it was Oblivion stone. I did neglect to include the two that say "Exile all permanents", but they show up in both camps, so they don't really make a difference, beyond increasing both numbers. Also of note is that the initial 23 doesn't count ones that are dependent on CMC, as I felt that was getting into a wonky area with stuff like whether or not Rachet Bomb counts as mass removal.
Bane of Progress would have been perfectly OK if it was a white card. The fact that it's green is what really gets my goat.
Honestly wizards, modern green does not need "best artifact/enchantment destruction" in its color pie. Not any longer.
On the announcement page it states that these cards will be legal for vintage and legacy tournaments, is there something to suggest they'll be legal in modern too?
Bane of Progress would have been perfectly OK if it was a white card. The fact that it's green is what really gets my goat.
Honestly wizards, modern green does not need "best artifact/enchantment destruction" in its color pie. Not any longer.
If it was white then it wouldn't have the +1/+1 counter clause though; if it was white it would be spell, not a permanent (case in point: Austere Command)
That's one of the things that makes it especially attractive: you weaken your opponents while enhancing your board presence
On the announcement page it states that these cards will be legal for vintage and legacy tournaments, is there something to suggest they'll be legal in modern too?
I don't think he's referring to Modern the format, but talking about green's slice of the pie now (e.g. modern green) versus what it was historically. He's pointing out the fact that in the early days, white had the most efficient artifact/enchantment removal (Serenity, Purify, Aura of Silence, etc.).
Bane of Progress would have been perfectly OK if it was a white card. The fact that it's green is what really gets my goat.
Honestly wizards, modern green does not need "best artifact/enchantment destruction" in its color pie. Not any longer.
But that's the direction the color pie has gone. White is best at enchantment destruction, red is best at artifact destruction, and green gets the best of them combined.
I don't think he's referring to Modern the format, but talking about green's slice of the pie now (e.g. modern green) versus what it was historically. He's pointing out the fact that in the early days, white had the most efficient artifact/enchantment removal (Serenity, Purify, Aura of Silence, etc.).
MaRo's recent article about the color pie said "white has the least good card draw because it has the most answers"
Can't green remove permanents?
Except for creatures, can't it remove everything with ease?
I don't understand the logic there. Definitely not after they said green should have the second best card draw.
(for interested people, same article that announced black force, yesterday)
Yeah, I thought that was stupid. Black clearly has the second best draw in any formats that come to mind. Green has a few solid pieces, but in terms of efficiency nothing that touches black, and it's almost all dependent on board state. Granted, black usually pays life for it, but in this format, that's nbd.
Green can, and it can even deal with creatures (especially flyers) relatively efficiently when you consider things like deathtouch and flash/reach guys like Cloudthresher.
What white offers though is exile. Destroying doesn't work when it comes to a lot of problematic things, and white keeps getting more and more cheap ways to exile. Especially in EDH, exile (and tuck) is the way to go. Destruction is only temporary in most cases. That's part of the reason I love Orzhov so much.
Yeah, and I agree black easily has the 2nd-best draw. Green really is no slouch at all though. I mean, these days green mages don't need no Ohran Viper.
My biggest question was why make a third doubling season style of card. Its less powerful than the original but more powerful than the second rendition but was it really needed???? I think having a second one was good but I just dont know how many of this same effect we really need.... the three of them are just so close in function it seems sort of silly to bother printing it.
I guess I just would have rather seen a different card entirely than see a third of the same effect.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Green can, and it can even deal with creatures (especially flyers) relatively efficiently when you consider things like deathtouch and flash/reach guys like Cloudthresher.
What white offers though is exile. Destroying doesn't work when it comes to a lot of problematic things, and white keeps getting more and more cheap ways to exile. Especially in EDH, exile (and tuck) is the way to go. Destruction is only temporary in most cases.
Good thing they're starting to print things like Fade into Antiquity to go with Deglamer in Green. Can't have it lagging behind another color.
MaRo's recent article about the color pie said "white has the least good card draw because it has the most answers"
Can't green remove permanents?
Except for creatures, can't it remove everything with ease?
I don't understand the logic there. Definitely not after they said green should have the second best card draw.
(for interested people, same article that announced black force, yesterday)
See, the thing is, White has access to pretty much all the removal green gets, plus it can remove creatures (typically conditionally, but usually easy to meet conditions like "is attacking"), and wrath the board. It's not number one in artifact removal, but it's close to second, and as I said before, theoretically it's number one in enchantment removal.
As far as green being number two in card draw... it's important to look at what he's considering card draw. It's not just things with "draw a card" printed on them. For green, he's counting things like Rampant growth (because it's the equivalent of drawing a land and getting to play it for free), tutoring up lands and creatures, and dudes that cantrip. If you're going for straight up things that say draw a card, then yes, black's second. If you're looking at things that get you the equivalent of more cards, as he does, then Green's pretty solidly in second place. Note, too, that this isn't about card advantage. Rampant Growth isn't card advantage, but it is card draw, in an obscure way.
I didn't think green had second best card draw. I thought it was:
1. Blue
2. Black
3. Green
Tied at 42: Red/White
I think they are talking about modern card creation in general. Necro and a few similar that have broken formats and been banned being exceptions, green has stronger but more board position dependent draw these days when you look at like Garruk, Primal Hunter and some similar things.
With more modern card design. Black tends to draw 2-3 cards in one shot or does sort of a one per turn style of design. Green has stronger one shot draws but tends to lack the over time draws.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Black also gets the "Draw" of tutoring, in which it's by FAR the best.
On Fade into Antiquity, I had forgotten about that, but I'd rather play Deglamer for the instant speed tuck. If you're running into tons of Indestructible for some reason, then I guess Fade is OK, but 3 mana sorcery-speed doesn't do it for me.
Eye of Doom
Artifact- Rare
ETB everyone puts a fate counter on a nonland permanent
:2mana:, :symtap:: Destroy everything with a fate counter on it
It's like an anti-O-Stone. Sweet. A sneaky way to let red and black destroy enchantments, and green, creatures. It's really good if one person is running away with the game but really bad if that person is you... I like it and I hope they print more creative answer cards like this. It definitely challenges the color pie but not in a real stupid way like Beast Within and such... you could lose a lot more than you stand to gain by casting this!
Also pretty hilarious with Triad of the Fates, for more janky fun there
EDIT: I see the spoiler xml is a little slow... this card was spoiled yesterday??
Also Doubling Season part 3? The symmetrical version cometh. I wonder how many are worth running in decks that want this effect until at some point you're better off tutoring for one...
Eye of Doom
Artifact- Rare
ETB everyone puts a fate counter on a nonland permanent
:2mana:, :symtap:: Destroy everything with a fate counter on it
It's like an anti-O-Stone. Sweet. A sneaky way to let red and black destroy enchantments, and green, creatures. It's really good if one person is running away with the game but really bad if that person is you... I like it and I hope they print more creative answer cards like this. It definitely challenges the color pie but not in a real stupid way like Beast Within and such... you could lose a lot more than you stand to gain by casting this!
Not possible. You put the fate counter on the Eye, then you only lose what you have to sacrifice to cast anyway.
Also, I really don't think it's going to let anyone destroy anything important. Each player gets to choose the stuff that's going to get destroyed. It looks to me more like the card reads:
"Spend four mana to watch everyone put a fate counter on something insignificant, then cry."
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
Not possible. You put the fate counter on the Eye, then you only lose what you have to sacrifice to cast anyway.
If you want to destroy something you have to sac it, in which case you can be dogpiled. Think of it as a Choice of Damnations type effect and you see what i'm trying to say. Yes you don't HAVE to sac it but then you've already sunk 4 mana and a card into the effect...
I think the card is better than it seems if you read it as ":6mana:, :symtap:, sac: bring the OP player back down to your level"
The thing is, when trying to combat ramp in any form, trading one for one with their cards is just going to put you behind the table very very quickly. This is exacerbated in land ramp, since you'll frequently have them dropping things like Skyshroud Claim, where "destroy target land" is only going to take out half a card. In multiplayer, what's needed to combat ramp is some form of mass destruction. And for that, "Destroy all artifacts" outstrips "Destroy all lands."
Aside: Interestingly, at least to me, it was closer than I was initially expecting. Putting together "Destroy all artifacts", "Destroy all permanents", and "Exile all artifacts" I got 23 results that actually performed the job as stated, with an extra 7 if you include ones based on CMC. "Destroy all lands" got a total of 12, with two more from Soulscour and Worldslayer, for a total of 14. I'm a bit surprised the difference is less than 10, even if large portions of both lists are jank.
Personally, I like Bane of Progress, since it makes people think before loading their non-green decks up with tons of ramp. The trouble, obviously, is that it doesn't force the green decks to make the same decision. A Keldon Firebomber that scaled to the gamestate (something like "Each player sacrifices lands until they control the same number as the person with the least") would, I feel, help balance the equation.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
I don't think they're going to go about this as strongly as they have for "regular" magic but I'm curious to see if it will work out: I'm very happy with the ways things have been going in Limited (I don't play T2 but I do like reading up on what's going on in it) so I'm hopeful it'll have positive ramifications in EDH
http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22destroy+each+nonland%22&v=card&s=cname
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
They showed up under the search for "Destroy all/each permanent", so yeah. Forgot to mention I'd run that one too, but the only one that met the criteria that showed up on it was Oblivion stone. I did neglect to include the two that say "Exile all permanents", but they show up in both camps, so they don't really make a difference, beyond increasing both numbers. Also of note is that the initial 23 doesn't count ones that are dependent on CMC, as I felt that was getting into a wonky area with stuff like whether or not Rachet Bomb counts as mass removal.
Honestly wizards, modern green does not need "best artifact/enchantment destruction" in its color pie. Not any longer.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
On the announcement page it states that these cards will be legal for vintage and legacy tournaments, is there something to suggest they'll be legal in modern too?
If it was white then it wouldn't have the +1/+1 counter clause though; if it was white it would be spell, not a permanent (case in point: Austere Command)
That's one of the things that makes it especially attractive: you weaken your opponents while enhancing your board presence
I don't think he's referring to Modern the format, but talking about green's slice of the pie now (e.g. modern green) versus what it was historically. He's pointing out the fact that in the early days, white had the most efficient artifact/enchantment removal (Serenity, Purify, Aura of Silence, etc.).
stuff
But that's the direction the color pie has gone. White is best at enchantment destruction, red is best at artifact destruction, and green gets the best of them combined.
Ahh, understood. My mistake.
Can't green remove permanents?
Except for creatures, can't it remove everything with ease?
I don't understand the logic there. Definitely not after they said green should have the second best card draw.
(for interested people, same article that announced black force, yesterday)
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
I don't think Maro was involved with Commander 2013.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
Yeah, I thought that was stupid. Black clearly has the second best draw in any formats that come to mind. Green has a few solid pieces, but in terms of efficiency nothing that touches black, and it's almost all dependent on board state. Granted, black usually pays life for it, but in this format, that's nbd.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
What white offers though is exile. Destroying doesn't work when it comes to a lot of problematic things, and white keeps getting more and more cheap ways to exile. Especially in EDH, exile (and tuck) is the way to go. Destruction is only temporary in most cases. That's part of the reason I love Orzhov so much.
Yeah, and I agree black easily has the 2nd-best draw. Green really is no slouch at all though. I mean, these days green mages don't need no Ohran Viper.
I guess I just would have rather seen a different card entirely than see a third of the same effect.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Good thing they're starting to print things like Fade into Antiquity to go with Deglamer in Green. Can't have it lagging behind another color.
Bane of Progress is going to make U/G/X goodstuff that much better, as they already ramp fast and have the tools to abuse the EtB effect it has along with already getting tools like Prophet of Kruphix, Plasm Capture, Sylvan Primordial, Beast Within, Eternal Witness, and more.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
See, the thing is, White has access to pretty much all the removal green gets, plus it can remove creatures (typically conditionally, but usually easy to meet conditions like "is attacking"), and wrath the board. It's not number one in artifact removal, but it's close to second, and as I said before, theoretically it's number one in enchantment removal.
As far as green being number two in card draw... it's important to look at what he's considering card draw. It's not just things with "draw a card" printed on them. For green, he's counting things like Rampant growth (because it's the equivalent of drawing a land and getting to play it for free), tutoring up lands and creatures, and dudes that cantrip. If you're going for straight up things that say draw a card, then yes, black's second. If you're looking at things that get you the equivalent of more cards, as he does, then Green's pretty solidly in second place. Note, too, that this isn't about card advantage. Rampant Growth isn't card advantage, but it is card draw, in an obscure way.
1. Blue
2. Black
3. Green
Tied at 42: Red/White
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
I think they are talking about modern card creation in general. Necro and a few similar that have broken formats and been banned being exceptions, green has stronger but more board position dependent draw these days when you look at like Garruk, Primal Hunter and some similar things.
With more modern card design. Black tends to draw 2-3 cards in one shot or does sort of a one per turn style of design. Green has stronger one shot draws but tends to lack the over time draws.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
On Fade into Antiquity, I had forgotten about that, but I'd rather play Deglamer for the instant speed tuck. If you're running into tons of Indestructible for some reason, then I guess Fade is OK, but 3 mana sorcery-speed doesn't do it for me.
Artifact- Rare
ETB everyone puts a fate counter on a nonland permanent
:2mana:, :symtap:: Destroy everything with a fate counter on it
It's like an anti-O-Stone. Sweet. A sneaky way to let red and black destroy enchantments, and green, creatures. It's really good if one person is running away with the game but really bad if that person is you... I like it and I hope they print more creative answer cards like this. It definitely challenges the color pie but not in a real stupid way like Beast Within and such... you could lose a lot more than you stand to gain by casting this!
Also pretty hilarious with Triad of the Fates, for more janky fun there
EDIT: I see the spoiler xml is a little slow... this card was spoiled yesterday??
Also Doubling Season part 3? The symmetrical version cometh. I wonder how many are worth running in decks that want this effect until at some point you're better off tutoring for one...
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Not possible. You put the fate counter on the Eye, then you only lose what you have to sacrifice to cast anyway.
Also, I really don't think it's going to let anyone destroy anything important. Each player gets to choose the stuff that's going to get destroyed. It looks to me more like the card reads:
"Spend four mana to watch everyone put a fate counter on something insignificant, then cry."
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
If you want to destroy something you have to sac it, in which case you can be dogpiled. Think of it as a Choice of Damnations type effect and you see what i'm trying to say. Yes you don't HAVE to sac it but then you've already sunk 4 mana and a card into the effect...
I think the card is better than it seems if you read it as ":6mana:, :symtap:, sac: bring the OP player back down to your level"
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
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