[Official]
The Top 50 List (Indefinite Hiatus)
Poll: Which WHITE CREATURE should be removed from the list?
Ended Feb 16, 2019
Poll: Which BLACK CREATURES should be removed from the list? (Pick 4)
Ended Feb 16, 2019
Poll: Which GREEN NONCREATURE should be removed from the list?
Ended Feb 16, 2019
Poll: Which COLORLESS NONCREATURE should be removed from the list?
Ended Feb 16, 2019
:symb::symb::symb:The Gate:symb::symb::symb:
:xmana::xmana::xmana:Affinity:xmana::xmana::xmana:
:symu::symw:W/U Liquid Swords:symw::symu:
:symg::symr::symw::symb:Aggro Loam:symb::symw::symr::symg:
Leveling Towards:
:symw::symw::symw:Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker:symw::symw::symw:
:symu::symb::symu:Oona, Queen of the Faye:symu::symb::symu:
as you can see from the changelogbut was cut because he's strictly a combo piece, a very well known one at that.It's funny because Ink-Eyes is female.
No, in all seriousness, I agree with him. An uncounterable reanimate ability, attached to a creature which can survive most wraths and killspells, PLUS a way to cheat into play, on a decent 5/4 body, all seems pretty good to me. Even if she's useless in your meta, how does that make her any closer to the chopping block for the top card list?
BG Jumpin' JaradsGB
BB Furry Rat Lady: The Deck BB
UU I Don't Ever Want To Explain How Knowledge Pool Works Ever Again UU
RR This Is My Suika Cosplay Lightning Bolt Deck RR
WW Mangara exiles both permanents and friends
RWG Marath Sunforger RWG
WUBRG Cromat and Friends WUBRG
--
BG Savra, Rocking Attrition (retired) GB
BB">Shauku, Envoy of the End (retired) BB
BU Wrexial, the Tentacled H beast(retired)UB
BB Endrek Sahr, Master Commander (retired )BB
UU [PRIMER] Talrand's Terrible Tempo Terror Teatime (retired) UU
UBW Senator Trio - Three Heads Are Better Than One (retired) UBW
BB MONSTRUAL BLEEDING EREBOS SADISM (retired) BB
General Description
Leyline of the Void is a nifty enchantment which prevents cards from touching graveyards (for your opponents only. your cards touch the graveyards just fine), hosing many forms of graveyard-based strategies if resolved (or enters play) early. More importantly, it is a replacement effect -- which means that there is no need to wait to gain priority before you get the right to exile a card.
Main Usage in EDH
Prevents your opponents from having a graveyard though admittedly, it won't get rid of an existing graveyard -- though it is not as if black lacks ways for graveyard hate. It also helps that it has a fairly simple-to-assemble combo associated with it. A few things should be noted here. Black decks, red decks and black-red has almost no way of handling this enchantment (yes, yes, red has chaos warp and all colours have Oblivion Stone but otherwise, it is really, really difficult to handle. The potential to be put into play for free can also be pretty nifty against certain control-heavy table.
Deck Type Notes
Regardless of deck types, some form of graveyard hates are pretty essential. An inverse analysis may be helpful here. If your meta is chock full of reanimation decks (e.g. The Mimeoplasm, Karador) or similar graveyard-based strategies (dredge, etc.), this may be the card for you! But wait, there's more!
Combos
Lucky users of Leyline of the Void has an exclusive chance of abusing the Helm of Obedience combo. Simply get both of these awesome permanents in play (both of which are pretty good on its own) and activate the Helm for a low, low cost of 1. Helm will slice and dice your opponent's library like there's no tomorrow!
Okay, more specifically, the Helm will try to put 1 card into your opponent's graveyard but the Leyline's replacement effect will replace it. Since no cards have been placed in the graveyards this way (creatures or noncreatures), the Helm will try to put another card from your opponent's library into his/her graveyard which would get exiled in turn, ad infinitum until your opponent is left with no library. But wait! There's more! Since neither any creatures or non-creature cards were placed into graveyards this way, you don't sacrifice your Helm of Obedience, allowing you to use it again, once it gets untapped.
*Leylines and helms each sold separately. Batteries, lands or other mana sources are not included.
Low Budget Substitutes
Leyline of the Void is available for a low, low price of approximately USD1 -- being printed in just about two sets thus far. The helm may cost a bit more at USD3-4 but that's about it -- nothing too back-breaking for this amazing combo.
WUBErtai, the CorruptedWUB
WKemba, Kha RegentW
GSeshiro, the AnointedG
That writeup brings up an interesting point though in that it's a combo piece with Helm of Obediance and I'm wondering how important this aspect of the card is. Palinchron was kicked off the list because he's strictly a combo piece. I'm just wondering how heavily Leyline's combo potential should be weighed in.
Bloodghast vs. Nether Traitor - Nether Traitor is a fine card but I don't think Bloodghast is the cut. Most decks in this format don't want to be missing many land drops and there are a number of fetchlands available and cards like Exploration or Burgeoning which can be used to abuse Bloodghast. I also feel like Bloodghast is easier for a lot of decks to abuse since it should require less work to make a land drop than to get one of your creatures killed.
Leyline of the Void hits multiple players while Nihil Spellbomb hits one player at most. However, more importantly, they do rather different things. The Spellbomb is a one-off cleanup of whatever mess that is in target player's graveyard (unless you are talking about recurring the spellbomb). The Leyline does not cleanup the mess but prevents the mess from going there to begin with.
How is this relevant? If your opponent activates a Nihil Spellbomb to exile your yard while you have the Leyline in play, your opponent will not be able to pay B to draw a card. Ironic, no? It doesn't just stop there but yes, clamped creatures won't yield your opponents two cards, your opponent's Archon of Justice won't be so self-righteous on his / her demise, opposing persist and undying creatures will be rendered irrelevant, etc. In fact, your opponent's creatures (and other permanents) literally cannot die -- they get exiled instead.
I am not suggesting that the Leyline gets in solely because of a game-ending combo. The Helm of Obedience combo is just gravy. I could have mentioned Ill-Gotten Gains -- or heck, any discard / mill spells -- and my points would still be valid. When a card "combos" / synergises well with so many relevant cards, I think it is a strong candidate for the Top 50 list... and I am not even going to mention how it cripples multiple types of graveyard-relevant strategies (especially against red and black).
Bloodghast is for clamping and synergizes with Nether Traitor.
Leyline does things that Spellbomb does not however they are both graveyard hate cards and serve very similar functions. The cases you presented are niche enough that I'm still confident Spellbomb is the better card at a cheaper price (and it cantrips). Spellbomb also deals with cards that are already in the graveyard so Genesis gets shut down, Reanimation effects are stopped, Sun Titan is sad, etc. It's also a Trinket Mage target, can be recurred via Academy Ruins and actually provides you some value if your opponent wants to abuse their graveyard and is holding a Naturalize.
Are you sure it is a niche situation? Unless there is a sudden lack of persist cards (there are quite a few in the Top 50 lists) or a decline in the use of Skullclamp and other dying matters cards, I think calling it a "niche" scenario is unfair. Have Yavimaya Elder suddenly gone out of style? Have players stopped using Vicious Shadows?
Being a Trinket Mage and Academy Ruins target would help a lot more if we are playing at least Dimir colours. If anything, all you are doing is mentioning very specific cards which synergises well with it -- arguably, this means that Nihil Spellbomb is more niche than the Leyline. Mind you, while the spellbomb's synergies are adorable, at best, Leyline's synergies win you the game or cripple an opponent significantly and it could be done without eating other colours. As for stopping Sun Titan, depending on the deck, you are only going to stop one trigger, tops -- unless you use your own Sun Titan to bring it back. Cantrip is nice... if Black didn't already have abundant ways of generating card advantage. Speaking of Naturalize, while Naturalize does destroy Leyline, bear in mind that as an enchantment, it is inherently more resilient than artifacts and as a permanent with a static ability, it is inherently more stable than activated abilities.
I'll concede that there are many things that the spellbomb can do that the leyline can't but that is like saying that Go for the Throat is better than Doom Blade because Go for the Throat gets rid of black creatures too. They are both two different cards altogether and any comparisons between these two will be bound to be unfair.
"niche" was directed at Leyline stopping "dies" triggers being an important selling point over Spellbomb not that Spellbomb was a better build around me card. Leyline is much better to build around.
I don't think we should just be dismissing the fact that Spellbomb cantrips despite black having great card draw options. It's never a dead card as long as you have a couple of mana.
I'm not saying Leyline is an easier permanent type to destroy, it's not. I'm saying that if they do have something to destroy it it's very possible you will get little or no value out of Leyline other than drawing out a removal spell. Now I'm hesitant to go with the "it dies to removal option" here but we're comparing this with a card that pretty much doesn't die to removal. Being an activated ability does open Spellbomb to cards like Pithing Needle and Stifle effects but those are some of the only effects that can even stop it from doing damage.
I really think these cards take up similar slots unless you're building around Leyline. They both hate on graveyards, they just do so in different ways. Leyline is better to build around and Spellbomb is more straightforward hate. I prefer Spellbomb because it's very cheap, cantrips and is very difficult to stop and you prefer Leyline because it stops "dies" triggers, affects multiple opponents and has powerful options to build around it. Both these cards have their merits I just feel the Spellbomb is going to be the better option for more decks.
I would argue that while Spellbomb does a great job at graveyard hate, Leyline does both graveyard hate and handles "dies" trigger. I acknowledge that Spellbomb is probably able to do a better job at graveyard hate (it is admittedly cheap, efficient and cantrips) -- on the other hand, it is totally incapable of handling dies trigger.
That said, I can accept that we are probably speaking from two distinct metagame and I can see where you are coming from. I believe that both of us has made our point and I'll leave it to the rest of the forum to have their say.
I'm still seeing a ton of great cards that always seem to get talked about but don't seem to move anywhere.
I still think there needs to be a 2010, 2011, 2012, and so on voting thread, where rankings and vote tally are put into perspective, not just one person's over all view. I don't believe for a moment that the forum has nearly enough say on this list. We did it in the cube, no reason it can't be done here.
I am happy it isn't a sticky anymore, though we do need this type of thread just not the management.
'Peace
Agreed, I think that was a pretty constructive little debate.:)
Now on the other hand I accept that leyline is a potential combo piece and I acknowledge its power there. However last I checked we were not adding cards to the list based off of their combo potential or at least not based upon that soley. When it comes to straight grave hate though I would rather rely on the spellbomb than the leyline.
Just my own $0.02 on the matter.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
My Saffi deck
This.
And as was mentioned above, Trinket Mage and Academy Ruins (even Tezzeret) are a big part of what makes Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, and Relic of Progenitus so strong, and the preferred method of hosing graveyards.
I love following these little guys with stuff like Gravestorm. So fun.
I just wanted to say that I'mhappy that Surging Chaos has final say over the list and the cards are NOT voted in by a majority. I'd put far more value in a top 20 list that Usman (for example) was in charge of over in the cube area than the current list that the majority votes on. When you go with the majority you end up with baffling things like Martial Coup as a top 20 white card for cube, people not voting on Moat because they don't own one and people having no idea where to place power because they've never run it.
Leyline shuts off Wrexial, Karador, Sharuum, Eternal Witness, etc etc etc, while still allowing you access to your graveyard. It's worth playing just for that reason alone!
Thank You Rivenor/Miraculous Recovery Studios!
GGGSKamahl's Band of Monstosities SGGG
RRRSFreaki-Kiki, The Goblin DoucheSRRR
BBGGNath, Raper of Hands and Spewer of Tokens!GGBB
BUGDamia, Sage of AnswersBUG
WIPs
BBBXiahou Dun, the Bitter Stax Enabling BastardBBB
On Break
BBBSKagemaro, First to RetireSBBB
BBBThe Walking DeadBBB
UUUSTeferi Combo PrimerSUUU
Why? Those are the first things you cut for any of the other lands on the list.
Minor nitpick -- you can't actually follow up Relic of Progenitus with Bitter Ordeal
Again, I'd like to point out that the trinket mage part is only relevant when you are playing (U/B). While I agree that we don't want to include anything in the list just because it is a combo piece, I don't think we want to exclude cards just because it is a combo piece. I accept that yes, Leyline of the Void is a combo piece but at the same time, I'd defend that it is also a good card in its own right for the reasons given previously.
All that said, it is also worth bearing in mind that neither Nihil Spellbomb nor Leyline of the Void is on the Top 50 list.
Minor nitpick but not only did he not say Bitter Ordeal, I don't see why Bitter Ordeal couldn't follow up Relic of Progenitus?
Experimental Kraj
That is a good point. I didn't know (or rather, I forgot) that Gravestorm was a card rather than a mechanic on Bitter Ordeal
P.S.: You don't actually sacrifice Relic of Progenitus to trigger the gravestorm mechanic.