We do unlimited free 7 card mulls. No sol rings after the first one. But no one abuses this and we play super casual, no mass LD, no combos, and no tuck. So it works fine.
What's kind of funny is that I kind of like this MORE than free Partials (at least in this form of environment). It doesn't allow players to cherry-pick their hands, and if someone goes back 3 or 4 times, it will draw a lot of glares for holding up the game.
Unlimited free mulligans is a practice that focuses on getting players hands that they can play with (players are honor-bound to stop once they get a decent hand). Free partials is a practice that focuses on giving players the best hands possible. The latter should not be in the realm of mulligans; mulligans should be focusing on the former.
To put it another way; unlimited free mulligans puts an impetus on the player "Everyone knows you could abuse this. Everyone will notice if you are trying to abuse this. So you shouldn't - just get a playable hand so we can play."
Free partials say: "You have this amazing tool at your disposal, and we're encouraging you to use it - if you don't have cards you actively want, mulligan until you get them."
My playgroup is kinda split. Those of us with the more powerful decks do a free 7 when you reveal a hand with 0, 1, or 7 lands. The less powerful players do free partial paris. It allows everyone to play the game fully. I would like to switch everyone in the group to the free for 0, 1, 7, but it is taking some time.
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To put it another way; unlimited free mulligans puts an impetus on the player "Everyone knows you could abuse this. Everyone will notice if you are trying to abuse this. So you shouldn't - just get a playable hand so we can play."
That is pretty much the focus. The game is not a fun for everyone if someone never really gets going cause they had to mull way down or got land short. The rule of thumb is to keep any hand with 3 lands assuming at east 1 of them produces colored mana.
And having to toss the whole hand prevents hand crafting. But we don't play with combos anyhow so that is less an issue.
I'm pretty surprised to see how many groups use the Free Partial; my playgroup and most of the others around us (including our LGS) just use a Free Paris. We tried the Partial Paris once or twice but nobody really liked it, it just seemed like hand sculpting.
I'm pretty surprised to see how many groups use the Free Partial; my playgroup and most of the others around us (including our LGS) just use a Free Paris. We tried the Partial Paris once or twice but nobody really liked it, it just seemed like hand sculpting.
Yeah of my 5 previous play groups non used partial paris.
In games amongst the RC and friends (like when we get together at a PT or whatever), we use the "Gis" mulligan, suggested by close friend and former L5 Gis Hoogendijk. It's quite liberal, and I would not suggest doing it in an environment where there are players you don't know/trust. It's very easily abusable.
The first one is free, meaning you can ship it for whatever reason you want. You exile those 7 cards. After that, you still draw 7. If you have a hand that has 3 or more lands in it, you MUST keep it (even if it's 3 Mountains and all you have are Green spells or some or all of the lands don't produce mana). If not, you exile those 7, and try again, with the same restrictions--you MUST keep a 3+ land hand. Once you get a keeper, you shuffle back in all the exiled cards.
We adopted this at Armada, and it's still the League rule. However, we found that we couldn't really use the honor system. On subsequent hands, players have to reveal the hand if they want to ship it to make sure they weren't 3+ landers. Since then, it's worked well.
The downside here is that some players have shorted their land counts (as low as 30) knowing that they're going to start with at least 3. I think the math still doesn't work out in their favor, and they commonly complain because they stall at 3, but they've done it to themselves.
It's the closest we've come to finding something quick and easy that gets players rolling with reasonable starting hands and doesn't take up a bunch of time reshuffling. Again, I wouldn't trust strangers with it, unless they were revealing their non-keepers. I don't expect that it would work for everyone, and I imagine there's a way for it to be horribly abused.
My group plays with the Partial Paris rules, with no free mulligans (as per the guidelines outlined on the official website.)
My group plays by the book for all aspects of EDH.
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On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
My group does the Partial Paris mulligan with one free, because in my infinite-combo-free playgroup, someone getting a god had is more fun than playing with a player stuck on one land. A god hand in our playgroup is nothing a boardwipe or hoser card can't fix most of the time.
We don't use partial paris, just shuffle the first 7 in and draw a fresh 7. Do this as many times as you want, but if you take too long, everyone sasses you. The group is friends before players and our influx of players is typically brand new players, so we have yet to have anyone abuse this system.
Our group is very casual. If you have a bad draw for whatever reason (no playables, all colorless/non mana producing lands, etc.) you cut your deck, bury your hand and draw 7 off the top. But like I said, we're very casual. If we were competitive at all, I think the only free mulligan we would allow is a no mana producing land opener. And we might invoke a 1 soda penalty if you took it (in order to take the mulligan you have to buy your opponent a soda or snack).
Our playgroup recently switched from standard MtG mulligan rules to Partial Paris (w/ first free) for EDH. So far most of us seem to prefer the results of the the Partial Paris. While I do sympathize with the complaint that it allows for sculpting "god-hands," there's always a chance that someone has a nut-draw, but at least with the "Commander Mulligan" everyone seems to have a hand, which in turn helps mitigate the nut-draw from player X.
In all honesty the biggest change I've noticed about switching to a first-free partial-paris mulligan for EDH games is that I hear less *****ing about crappy draws, which is always nice.
...not only is the total number of players expanding very quickly, but at the same time a greater and greater number of those players are being pushed to only desire a small subset of the available cards. These combined forces drastically increase demand for those cards and cause the values of just those specific cards to often balloon out of proportion.
we roll a 4 sided dice to determine which one we get.
1 is free paris
2 is free partial paris
3 is paris
4 is partial paris
if we don't have one, we roll d20 and the highest # chooses. and because we all have different styles(karthus, wort, ghave, and mimeo(mine)), it depends. i choose full paris with freebie, wort usually takes the partial paris with no freebie, ghave chooses partial paris with freebie, kathras just does it at random(usually paris with no freebies because he's super lucky)
Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
The LGS I go to does something weird. You get your opening hand, then you get to scry 2 before you decide whether to mulligan. It's a free first mull, but you ship the whole hand away.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
Small group of friends in my play group, so free partial paris is fair game. the group isn't super competitive, and the group agrees that nobody is particularly benefiting from a free partial paris more than anyone else (namely, nobody has built decks that abuse it etc).
We care more than people have a playable opening hand so the game remains relatively interactive for everyone. Normal -1 reduction rules apply after the 1st.
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
The one freebie is usually seen in multiplayer and Partial Paris is usually seen with EDH. Someone probably just combined the two together.
Indeed. In fact, CR 103.4b says that you get a free mulligan in multiplayer (not with those exact words, of course). However, CR 103.4d explains the "alternate" mulligan rule for Commander (Partial Paris, though the CR just calls it an alternate rule). The rules don't suggest that you get to do a Partial Paris mulligan and you get the first one free.
My group does Partial Paris, first one free. While it's very easy to build a deck to take advantage of this, none of us do. I'd personally prefer regular Paris mulligans, but that requires a lot more shuffling and most groups just wouldn't be down for it.
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EDH WBRKaalia of the VastRBW BChainer, Dementia MasterB Legacy 0Manaless Dredge0 RGoblinsR Standard RBWThe AristocratsWBR
I've actually just recently discovered that the suggested rules don't allow a free partial paris, so all the groups I play with do a free partial. In fact if I see someone do their free partial, then see a grimace on their face because they didn't pull another land, I usually just tell them to take the full amount again. I don't like seeing someone sit out the game because they happened to get some bad luck and lands weren't at the top. Afterwards I always ask how many lands they're running and advise them to increase it if it's too low.
Cockatrice always does the partial paris and so have the real life groups I've played with.
The vast majority of players I've sat down to play with have made the logical connection that multiplayer EDH games combine the two, and I don't see anywhere in mtgcommander's rules that says otherwise. Maybe I'm missing it? I see the multiplayer mulligan rule and the alternate mulligan rule, but nothing about not being allowed to combine them as is intuitive?
More forgiving mulligans don't specifically help "competitive" players as much as they help degenerate combo players.
A competitive EDH player will pack as much power, synergy and resiliency into their decks as possible, making any reasonable hand a keeper (ie: partial into proper mana and something to do early).
Degenerate combo players need to see certain cards, and yes partial w/freebie helps them dig one card further towards that game winning piece. EDH is extremely easy to break as a format, though, and no one should be surprised when the player with 10 game-ending combos in their deck wins. Dedicated combo decks aren't fun for anyone (Including the pilot after they get tired of winning every game the same way. Trust me, I know from experience.) though, so after a while most experienced players drift away from such decks.
The benefit of having every player actually in the game from the start is obvious and the flaw of partial w/freebie is self-correcting.
Overall, however, the most important thing is that every deck involved be at roughly the same power level. When one person always overwhelms everyone or just durdles with Savannah Lions and such, games are simply much less fun.
tldr; partial w/freebie is a problem when you have degenerate combo players, and not otherwise. Such behavior is self-correcting. Its more important that your playgroup is all on the same level.
The vast majority of players I've sat down to play with have made the logical connection that multiplayer EDH games combine the two, and I don't see anywhere in mtgcommander's rules that says otherwise. Maybe I'm missing it? I see the multiplayer mulligan rule and the alternate mulligan rule, but nothing about not being allowed to combine them as is intuitive?
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
103.4b In a multiplayer game, the first time a player takes a mulligan, he or she draws a new hand of as many cards as he or she had before. Subsequent hands decrease by one card as normal.
103.4d The Commander casual variant uses an alternate mulligan rule. Each time a player takes a mulligan, rather than shuffling his or her entire hand of cards into his or her library, that player exiles any number of cards from his or her hand. Then the player draws a number of cards equal to one less than the number of cards he or she exiled this way. Once a player keeps an opening hand, that player shuffles all cards he or she exiled this way into his or her library.
Maybe you're right. I suppose it does make sense that Commander has a different mulligan rule, and multiplayer Commander still follows 103.4b as well. Maybe we've been doing it right all along after all.
According to this definition, competitive decks just don't exist. If you're not manaweaving/stacking your deck (aka cheating), every deck needs mulligans once in a while.
Don't whine about mulligans then. If you want competitive, don't suck at deck building. If you want a fun, casual, level playing field, mulligan. Mulligans are there to prevent a blow out. If someone abused the system, they are clearly not worth playing with. Don't blame the system. Blame the spike sitting at the wrong table.
What's kind of funny is that I kind of like this MORE than free Partials (at least in this form of environment). It doesn't allow players to cherry-pick their hands, and if someone goes back 3 or 4 times, it will draw a lot of glares for holding up the game.
Unlimited free mulligans is a practice that focuses on getting players hands that they can play with (players are honor-bound to stop once they get a decent hand). Free partials is a practice that focuses on giving players the best hands possible. The latter should not be in the realm of mulligans; mulligans should be focusing on the former.
To put it another way; unlimited free mulligans puts an impetus on the player "Everyone knows you could abuse this. Everyone will notice if you are trying to abuse this. So you shouldn't - just get a playable hand so we can play."
Free partials say: "You have this amazing tool at your disposal, and we're encouraging you to use it - if you don't have cards you actively want, mulligan until you get them."
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryGU
GRBorborygmos EnragedRG
GBGRhys the ExiledGBG
URG Intet, the Dreamer GRU
That is pretty much the focus. The game is not a fun for everyone if someone never really gets going cause they had to mull way down or got land short. The rule of thumb is to keep any hand with 3 lands assuming at east 1 of them produces colored mana.
And having to toss the whole hand prevents hand crafting. But we don't play with combos anyhow so that is less an issue.
Yeah of my 5 previous play groups non used partial paris.
The first one is free, meaning you can ship it for whatever reason you want. You exile those 7 cards. After that, you still draw 7. If you have a hand that has 3 or more lands in it, you MUST keep it (even if it's 3 Mountains and all you have are Green spells or some or all of the lands don't produce mana). If not, you exile those 7, and try again, with the same restrictions--you MUST keep a 3+ land hand. Once you get a keeper, you shuffle back in all the exiled cards.
We adopted this at Armada, and it's still the League rule. However, we found that we couldn't really use the honor system. On subsequent hands, players have to reveal the hand if they want to ship it to make sure they weren't 3+ landers. Since then, it's worked well.
The downside here is that some players have shorted their land counts (as low as 30) knowing that they're going to start with at least 3. I think the math still doesn't work out in their favor, and they commonly complain because they stall at 3, but they've done it to themselves.
It's the closest we've come to finding something quick and easy that gets players rolling with reasonable starting hands and doesn't take up a bunch of time reshuffling. Again, I wouldn't trust strangers with it, unless they were revealing their non-keepers. I don't expect that it would work for everyone, and I imagine there's a way for it to be horribly abused.
The Ur-Dragon's Tyranny
Karador, Ghost of the Golgari
Niv-Mizzet, Izzet Mastermind
Thromok's Barbecue, Come Get Some!
Sedris's Hand of the Dead
Wort, the Queen of Boggarts
Rafiq, King of Jerkish Nature
Standard Decks
Jund Midrange
Narset 5 Color
Mono-Green Devotion
Naya Beasts
WR Burn
Modern Decks
Izzet Fiend
Affinity for Green
My group plays by the book for all aspects of EDH.
On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
Wydwen|Edric|Sakashima|Marrow-Gnawer|Hazezon
8.5 Tails|Seton|Rasputin|Doran|Gisela|Karona|Márton
UUUAzami, Lady of ScrollsUUU
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Vorel of the Hull Clade
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
GWURafiq of the ManyGWU
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
In all honesty the biggest change I've noticed about switching to a first-free partial-paris mulligan for EDH games is that I hear less *****ing about crappy draws, which is always nice.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
1 is free paris
2 is free partial paris
3 is paris
4 is partial paris
if we don't have one, we roll d20 and the highest # chooses. and because we all have different styles(karthus, wort, ghave, and mimeo(mine)), it depends. i choose full paris with freebie, wort usually takes the partial paris with no freebie, ghave chooses partial paris with freebie, kathras just does it at random(usually paris with no freebies because he's super lucky)
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
We care more than people have a playable opening hand so the game remains relatively interactive for everyone. Normal -1 reduction rules apply after the 1st.
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
EDH
WBRKaalia of the VastRBW
BChainer, Dementia MasterB
Legacy
0Manaless Dredge0
RGoblinsR
Standard
RBWThe AristocratsWBR
Cockatrice always does the partial paris and so have the real life groups I've played with.
First one is free in multiplayer games.
The vast majority of players I've sat down to play with have made the logical connection that multiplayer EDH games combine the two, and I don't see anywhere in mtgcommander's rules that says otherwise. Maybe I'm missing it? I see the multiplayer mulligan rule and the alternate mulligan rule, but nothing about not being allowed to combine them as is intuitive?
More forgiving mulligans don't specifically help "competitive" players as much as they help degenerate combo players.
A competitive EDH player will pack as much power, synergy and resiliency into their decks as possible, making any reasonable hand a keeper (ie: partial into proper mana and something to do early).
Degenerate combo players need to see certain cards, and yes partial w/freebie helps them dig one card further towards that game winning piece. EDH is extremely easy to break as a format, though, and no one should be surprised when the player with 10 game-ending combos in their deck wins. Dedicated combo decks aren't fun for anyone (Including the pilot after they get tired of winning every game the same way. Trust me, I know from experience.) though, so after a while most experienced players drift away from such decks.
The benefit of having every player actually in the game from the start is obvious and the flaw of partial w/freebie is self-correcting.
Overall, however, the most important thing is that every deck involved be at roughly the same power level. When one person always overwhelms everyone or just durdles with Savannah Lions and such, games are simply much less fun.
tldr; partial w/freebie is a problem when you have degenerate combo players, and not otherwise. Such behavior is self-correcting. Its more important that your playgroup is all on the same level.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
Maybe you're right. I suppose it does make sense that Commander has a different mulligan rule, and multiplayer Commander still follows 103.4b as well. Maybe we've been doing it right all along after all.
If the play environment changes, we'll adapt.
Don't whine about mulligans then. If you want competitive, don't suck at deck building. If you want a fun, casual, level playing field, mulligan. Mulligans are there to prevent a blow out. If someone abused the system, they are clearly not worth playing with. Don't blame the system. Blame the spike sitting at the wrong table.
EDH is a CASUAL format. Get with the program, or GTFO.