The Trap is meant to be Faerie's Trickery but that card is notoriously hard to find where I'm at. MBTrap still exiles ant has the potential to be free.
So this raises the question, in a situation where you have only 3-5 slots for counters, which one's do you think will get the most mileage? I chose Hinder+Crumple and Dissapate+Trickery(or my less-stellar MBTrap) because tucking is still powerful, and relevant on non-commanders as it doesn't let the card hit the grave, which is often more accessible than the library, and if I can't tuck exile great for making sure it never comes back.
Mindbreak Trap is stellar if your playgroup runs a lot of "can't be countered" stuff. Dissipate and Faerie Trickery exile, but still counter the spell. Mindbreak just flat out exiles it.
My personal favorite countermagic options are the ones that get around the "can't be countered" clause: Mindbreak Trap, Venser, Shaper Savant, and Time Stop
I love esper when it comes to counter spells as it has a great number of good counters.
Psychic Strike this card I believe is amazing, it is a 3 cost hard counter but does NOT require two blue, making it much easier to hold off and use. Not to mention the two mill is kind of cute though not necessarily relevant.
Soul Manipulation is a fun creature counter if you have any cool creatures you wouldn't mind getting back to your hand for free, great card advantage in its own right I would say.
Swift Silence is a fun card, especially if someone in your meta plays maelstrom wanderer might be a bit costly though.
Etrai's Meddling though not "truly" a counter it does sometimes what counters can, it can stop uncounterable spells at least for a little while, with enough delay counters it really shuts down a good spell, great against stuff like Last Word or Counterflux
Mana Sink really underestimated can force your opponent to overpay for something
Rethink Is amazing for really expensive stuff you can see in EDH and can be a pretty heavy counter against stuff like Omniscience and only for U2
Perplex A very fun card a good counter especially with the amount of draw power most decks have and can give your opponent a very serious choice to make
Like Jivanmukta, I like cards like Negate to protect my boardstate, but I don't see as much love for Hindering Light. It's seemingly innocuous at first but it counters Mind Twist effects, debilitating removal on your key card, and it cycles itself too. Spell Pierce is also a go-to favourite of mine.
I love draining welk, I just honestly can't find mine. I am running Momentary Blink and Cackling Counterpart, both would cause him to be an all-star, he is a bit expensive though.
I really like Remand. I know it's not a hard counter, but it buys you a turn, draws you a card, and most importantly it doesn't paint as much of a target on your head as something like a hard counter or Memory Lapse does.
Remand is good in that it's a cheap stall, but in EDH it doesn't get nearly the mileage it gets you in 1v1. In 1v1, it's a tempo thing that keeps your hand fresh and slows your opponent down. In multiplayer, chances are they can just cast it again and it's no biggy. I'd rather run Memory Lapse if I were to use one of the two, because it trades the cantrip to further stall your opponent, which against decks that can be an early threat is stupidly important.
Mindbreak Trap is stellar if your playgroup runs a lot of "can't be countered" stuff. Dissipate and Faerie Trickery exile, but still counter the spell. Mindbreak just flat out exiles it.
My personal favorite countermagic options are the ones that get around the "can't be countered" clause: Mindbreak Trap, Venser, Shaper Savant, and Time Stop
I own both, but Venser has the same issue as Remand, they can just cast it again. In an infinite-mana situation on the other side, it won't help at all. Combo late game is a thing in my group and everyone packs at least 1 or 2. You did sell me on MBTrap though, It's going to stay even if I get a trickery. Time Stop is one of my all time favorites. I love seeing someone about to combo out and being able to say "Alright, that's enough. You're done." and watch their face. I might try to find room for it in the deck. It's also a time warp varient if it gets down to 1v1.
As for Faerie Trickery, I think I have a few extras so I could probably send you one for free.
Really? You sir might be one of the coolest people I've met on here!
But back to the spells. The math behind Force of Will is absolutely horrendous. If it let you pitch any card it'd be great, but it's restricted to blue. It's also 2-for-1 card disadvantage, and if you hardcast it it's an overpriced Counterspell. It's fantastic for 1v1 for different reasons, but not for multiplayer. The same goes for Pact. I can't justify spending 20$(pact) or a retarded 80$(force) on a spell that puts me behind.
Arcane Denial is probably my favorite counterspell splash. Both players draw cards from it, so the other player doesn't mind it as much.
I actually didn't know this card existed. Under most circumstances, I'd say no to it, but the fact it replaces itself and draws little hate might just make it worth it, kind of like Oblation does.
Things like Arcane Denial or Negate are fantastic because they require only a single color. This matters more than you'd think.
Yeah, colors can bite you in the ass sometimes I'd agree. I love Negate, and it's one of my favorites, but when your only splashing counters I think you should really make certain that they can hit anything.
I love esper when it comes to counter spells as it has a great number of good counters.
Psychic Strike this card I believe is amazing, it is a 3 cost hard counter but does NOT require two blue, making it much easier to hold off and use. Not to mention the two mill is kind of cute though not necessarily relevant.
Soul Manipulation is a fun creature counter if you have any cool creatures you wouldn't mind getting back to your hand for free, great card advantage in its own right I would say.
Swift Silence is a fun card, especially if someone in your meta plays maelstrom wanderer might be a bit costly though.
Etrai's Meddling though not "truly" a counter it does sometimes what counters can, it can stop uncounterable spells at least for a little while, with enough delay counters it really shuts down a good spell, great against stuff like Last Word or Counterflux
Mana Sink really underestimated can force your opponent to overpay for something
Rethink Is amazing for really expensive stuff you can see in EDH and can be a pretty heavy counter against stuff like Omniscience and only for U2
Perplex A very fun card a good counter especially with the amount of draw power most decks have and can give your opponent a very serious choice to make
Soul Manipulation i've been considering, as it is card advantage, but I find that normally it's not creatures that need countering, it's everything else.
Rethink seems pretty tech, but again it's useless against any infinite mana situation.
Perplex suffers the browbeat problem on both ends. Not only does it give your opponents options, but yourself to. I'd find myself wondering whether it's better to keep it as a counter or to tutor. Still, I'll probably include it for the flexibility. Thanks for reminding me about this card!
Like Jivanmukta, I like cards like Negate to protect my boardstate, but I don't see as much love for Hindering Light. It's seemingly innocuous at first but it counters Mind Twist effects, debilitating removal on your key card, and it cycles itself too. Spell Pierce is also a go-to favourite of mine.
I never noticed Hindering Light stops both spells targeting a permanent you control (like Turn Aside) OR one that target you (like Outwit. I thought it was just a cantripping Turn Aside, but the doubled value makes it an auto-inclusion! thanks!
Absolutely love Arcane Denial. It cantrips, draws your target player 2, but no one else gets anything so unless you are in 1v1 you tend to come out ahead.
But back to the spells. The math behind Force of Will is absolutely horrendous. If it let you pitch any card it'd be great, but it's restricted to blue. It's also 2-for-1 card disadvantage, and if you hardcast it it's an overpriced Counterspell. It's fantastic for 1v1 for different reasons, but not for multiplayer. The same goes for Pact. I can't justify spending 20$(pact) or a retarded 80$(force) on a spell that puts me behind.
Actually you're right on Force of Will. In a 3 color deck it isn't worth it. However, Pact of Negation is awesome. The fact that you can tap out and still have an emergency counter for those bomb spells is really useful. I agree that it is very expensive (I was able to trade for my copy), but it has been well worth it in my case. I haven't personally used Arcane Denial, but I've heard a lot of people love it, and one of my friends has played it to good effect in his Wydwen deck. Delay can also be pretty good if you just need some time to prepare for the spell or find a better answer. It also messes up a lot of spells that need to be cast at a certain time to have their proper effect.
I own both, but Venser has the same issue as Remand, they can just cast it again. In an infinite-mana situation on the other side, it won't help at all.
But the biggest advantage of Venser is that he gives you options. When you don't need him to return a spell to hand, you can always use him as spot removal.
Actually you're right on Force of Will. In a 3 color deck it isn't worth it. However, Pact of Negation is awesome. The fact that you can tap out and still have an emergency counter for those bomb spells is really useful. I agree that it is very expensive (I was able to trade for my copy), but it has been well worth it in my case. I haven't personally used Arcane Denial, but I've heard a lot of people love it, and one of my friends has played it to good effect in his Wydwen deck. Delay can also be pretty good if you just need some time to prepare for the spell or find a better answer. It also messes up a lot of spells that need to be cast at a certain time to have their proper effect.
The issue that is brought up with force is valid even in mono blue. It's 2cards to stop their 1,even if it is free. Foil is even worse, as a 3-1 disadvantage, but has the added value of discarding any card in addition to the island, and it's DISCARD, not Exile., and it's a 4cmc counter to hard cast which isn't too terrible in its own right.
Pact is decent, but keep in mind even though it is "free" you're spending mana out of your next turn. Paying 5 to counterpell is ugly. It sets you behind a turn by spending mana you technically didn't have. Under very few circumstances are "free" counterpell really needed.
As for venser, Loozar, I forgot that he was a Boomerang on a stick. I'd probably always use him as a boomerang rather than a remand critter. Boomerang is jut a better spell really.
Exclude is excellenf and of that I don't think anyone can argue, but when you are "splashing" counterspell as way to stop combos or just to try and float your early game, you want them to hut virtually everything. The deck I'm playing isn't a land-go deck. It's early focus is ramping to set up for mid/late game.
The purpose of my 5 counters is the following in each stage of the game
EARLY:generally there is nothing worth countering turn 1-4 except maybe a general, which is why hinder and crumple are ran.
MID: stopping threats like a ramped into Vorinclex or a reanimate targeting Jin-Gitaxis is the focus here. Dissapate /trickery or MBTrap makes sure these threats don't come back, as d crumple and hinder.
Tempo I great but if it's not flexible enough to stop a given problem, it's not worth including just because it draws a card.
LATE: mostly used defensively, or to stop game ending cards like Time Stretch.
Soul Manipulation i've been considering, as it is card advantage, but I find that normally it's not creatures that need countering, it's everything else.
Rethink seems pretty tech, but again it's useless against any infinite mana situation.
Perplex suffers the browbeat problem on both ends. Not only does it give your opponents options, but yourself to. I'd find myself wondering whether it's better to keep it as a counter or to tutor. Still, I'll probably include it for the flexibility. Thanks for reminding me about this card!
I never noticed Hindering Light stops both spells targeting a permanent you control (like Turn Aside) OR one that target you (like Outwit. I thought it was just a cantripping Turn Aside, but the doubled value makes it an auto-inclusion! thanks!
Well perplex is good because of the it can either serve as a counter itself, trust me someone will let you counter an Omniscience with it and they have no counter of their own... if they discard their hand they would be sitting on a dead omniscience.
At worst you can use it to tutor up super hard counters like Dissipate, Faeire Trickery, Rethink, or any thing else that is useful at 3 mana, there is quite a bit at that mana cost. Its not perfect but if it was any better it might be a rare, especially with the transmute on it.
If people have infinite mana then things are kind of bad to begin with, its the bane of X spells... stuff like G-wave, comet storm, white sun, entreat the angels, or even just as a tech to force your opponent to tap out more making it near impossible to use.
Also a some very good "non counters" include Time Stop and Mana Short used correctly they can invalidate an entire turn and can be just as disrupting.
Edit: I see you discounting a fair amount of cards due to "infinite mana solutions" are infinite mana combos really heavy in your meta?
I would run Remand as well, but I don't have one on-hand.
The reason for the selection in this particular deck is that because I'm cascading so much, I don't want my counterspells you accidentally counter my cascade creature! With Venser, I can Boomerang something, or I can Remand my cascade spell and go again. With Ertai and Glen Elendra, I have the luxury of activating the counterspell ability later. With Delay (and Remand, once I get a copy), if I accidentally cascade into the counter, I've just delayed myself a little bit, not done any real damage.
I would run Remand as well, but I don't have one on-hand.
The reason for the selection in this particular deck is that because I'm cascading so much, I don't want my counterspells you accidentally counter my cascade creature! With Venser, I can Boomerang something, or I can Remand my cascade spell and go again. With Ertai and Glen Elendra, I have the luxury of activating the counterspell ability later. With Delay (and Remand, once I get a copy), if I accidentally cascade into the counter, I've just delayed myself a little bit, not done any real damage.
In case you didn't know, spelljack is another good counter to cascade into. Hit your own Maelstrom Wanderer with it and enjoy 2 more cascade triggers.
Ill second Pact of Negation. As a blue player think of how you play differentley with pact in hand rather than say... counterspell. Counterspell you leave mana open in case you need to counter a bomb. Every turn you do this can count as wasted mana. Now with Pact in hand you can go balls to the wall and not have to worry. Yea you lose tempo later but with counterspe you lose tempo consistantley. That is an overtly generalized example but the conscept hold true.
I'd personally look at the free ones (force and pact) and then the ones that are hard U counters. Things like Memory Lapse and Arcane Melee are the easiest to cast
Well perplex is good because of the it can either serve as a counter itself, trust me someone will let you counter an Omniscience with it and they have no counter of their own... if they discard their hand they would be sitting on a dead omniscience.
At worst you can use it to tutor up super hard caunters like Dissipate, Faeire Trickery, Rethink, or any thing else that is useful at 3 mana, there is quite a bit at that mana cost. Its not perfect but if it was any better it might be a rare, especially with the transmute on it.
If people have infinite mana then things are kind of bad to begin with, its the bane of X spells... stuff like G-wave, comet storm, white sun, entreat the angels, or even just as a tech to force your opponent to tap out more making it near impossible to use.
Also a some very good "non counters" include Time Stop and Mana Short used correctly they can invalidate an entire turn and can be just as disrupting.
Edit: I see you discounting a fair amount of cards due to "infinite mana solutions" are infinite mana combos really heavy in your meta?
I agree and I was sold on Perplex. It really is good because unless they already have a considerable board presence, no one wants to discard their hand. Time Stop continues to be a favorite of mine, though it is still expensive. I need to find room for it none the less. Mana Short will draw so much hate from one player it's not even funny. It has to be used during upkeep, because in response to the spell it's already paid for.
Same problem as Syncopate, useless vs infinite mana, or just big mana in general.
I'll say it again for those who just posted. Force of Will is TERRIBLE in 3-color EDH, and BARELY worth it in mono Blue. Why? its 2-for-1 cards, and exiles a card you probably could have used, and it has to be a BLUE card. At least Foil lets you pitch any card+island, but it's DISCARDED, not EXILED.
Pact is spending your next turn's mana, which if your into that that is cool, but I personally hate spending 5 mana for a counterspell especially if i'm taking a loan against myself to do it, in which Mana Short could kill me.
Primer:
Currently, the one's I'm using are
Hinder
Spell Crumple
Dissapate
Mindbreak Trap
The Trap is meant to be Faerie's Trickery but that card is notoriously hard to find where I'm at. MBTrap still exiles ant has the potential to be free.
So this raises the question, in a situation where you have only 3-5 slots for counters, which one's do you think will get the most mileage? I chose Hinder+Crumple and Dissapate+Trickery(or my less-stellar MBTrap) because tucking is still powerful, and relevant on non-commanders as it doesn't let the card hit the grave, which is often more accessible than the library, and if I can't tuck exile great for making sure it never comes back.
I'm not worried about double U, as these are only intended to counter commander's or bombshell spells that could potentially end the game (IE: Rite of Replication, Tooth and Nail, Exsanguinate, Comet Storm, etc).
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My personal favorite countermagic options are the ones that get around the "can't be countered" clause: Mindbreak Trap, Venser, Shaper Savant, and Time Stop
As for Faerie Trickery, I think I have a few extras so I could probably send you one for free.
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Psychic Strike this card I believe is amazing, it is a 3 cost hard counter but does NOT require two blue, making it much easier to hold off and use. Not to mention the two mill is kind of cute though not necessarily relevant.
Soul Manipulation is a fun creature counter if you have any cool creatures you wouldn't mind getting back to your hand for free, great card advantage in its own right I would say.
Swift Silence is a fun card, especially if someone in your meta plays maelstrom wanderer might be a bit costly though.
Etrai's Meddling though not "truly" a counter it does sometimes what counters can, it can stop uncounterable spells at least for a little while, with enough delay counters it really shuts down a good spell, great against stuff like Last Word or Counterflux
Last Word uncounterable and decent mana cost
Mana Sink really underestimated can force your opponent to overpay for something
Rethink Is amazing for really expensive stuff you can see in EDH and can be a pretty heavy counter against stuff like Omniscience and only for U2
Perplex A very fun card a good counter especially with the amount of draw power most decks have and can give your opponent a very serious choice to make
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Intet, Dreamworld (Aggro/Control)
Rith, Predators (Aggro)
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I love draining welk, I just honestly can't find mine. I am running Momentary Blink and Cackling Counterpart, both would cause him to be an all-star, he is a bit expensive though.
Remand is good in that it's a cheap stall, but in EDH it doesn't get nearly the mileage it gets you in 1v1. In 1v1, it's a tempo thing that keeps your hand fresh and slows your opponent down. In multiplayer, chances are they can just cast it again and it's no biggy. I'd rather run Memory Lapse if I were to use one of the two, because it trades the cantrip to further stall your opponent, which against decks that can be an early threat is stupidly important.
I own both, but Venser has the same issue as Remand, they can just cast it again. In an infinite-mana situation on the other side, it won't help at all. Combo late game is a thing in my group and everyone packs at least 1 or 2. You did sell me on MBTrap though, It's going to stay even if I get a trickery. Time Stop is one of my all time favorites. I love seeing someone about to combo out and being able to say "Alright, that's enough. You're done." and watch their face. I might try to find room for it in the deck. It's also a time warp varient if it gets down to 1v1.
Really? You sir might be one of the coolest people I've met on here!
But back to the spells. The math behind Force of Will is absolutely horrendous. If it let you pitch any card it'd be great, but it's restricted to blue. It's also 2-for-1 card disadvantage, and if you hardcast it it's an overpriced Counterspell. It's fantastic for 1v1 for different reasons, but not for multiplayer. The same goes for Pact. I can't justify spending 20$(pact) or a retarded 80$(force) on a spell that puts me behind.
I actually didn't know this card existed. Under most circumstances, I'd say no to it, but the fact it replaces itself and draws little hate might just make it worth it, kind of like Oblation does.
Yeah, colors can bite you in the ass sometimes I'd agree. I love Negate, and it's one of my favorites, but when your only splashing counters I think you should really make certain that they can hit anything.
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Soul Manipulation i've been considering, as it is card advantage, but I find that normally it's not creatures that need countering, it's everything else.
Rethink seems pretty tech, but again it's useless against any infinite mana situation.
Perplex suffers the browbeat problem on both ends. Not only does it give your opponents options, but yourself to. I'd find myself wondering whether it's better to keep it as a counter or to tutor. Still, I'll probably include it for the flexibility. Thanks for reminding me about this card!
I never noticed Hindering Light stops both spells targeting a permanent you control (like Turn Aside) OR one that target you (like Outwit. I thought it was just a cantripping Turn Aside, but the doubled value makes it an auto-inclusion! thanks!
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Actually you're right on Force of Will. In a 3 color deck it isn't worth it. However, Pact of Negation is awesome. The fact that you can tap out and still have an emergency counter for those bomb spells is really useful. I agree that it is very expensive (I was able to trade for my copy), but it has been well worth it in my case. I haven't personally used Arcane Denial, but I've heard a lot of people love it, and one of my friends has played it to good effect in his Wydwen deck. Delay can also be pretty good if you just need some time to prepare for the spell or find a better answer. It also messes up a lot of spells that need to be cast at a certain time to have their proper effect.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
But the biggest advantage of Venser is that he gives you options. When you don't need him to return a spell to hand, you can always use him as spot removal.
The issue that is brought up with force is valid even in mono blue. It's 2cards to stop their 1,even if it is free. Foil is even worse, as a 3-1 disadvantage, but has the added value of discarding any card in addition to the island, and it's DISCARD, not Exile., and it's a 4cmc counter to hard cast which isn't too terrible in its own right.
Pact is decent, but keep in mind even though it is "free" you're spending mana out of your next turn. Paying 5 to counterpell is ugly. It sets you behind a turn by spending mana you technically didn't have. Under very few circumstances are "free" counterpell really needed.
As for venser, Loozar, I forgot that he was a Boomerang on a stick. I'd probably always use him as a boomerang rather than a remand critter. Boomerang is jut a better spell really.
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UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
The purpose of my 5 counters is the following in each stage of the game
EARLY:generally there is nothing worth countering turn 1-4 except maybe a general, which is why hinder and crumple are ran.
MID: stopping threats like a ramped into Vorinclex or a reanimate targeting Jin-Gitaxis is the focus here. Dissapate /trickery or MBTrap makes sure these threats don't come back, as d crumple and hinder.
Tempo I great but if it's not flexible enough to stop a given problem, it's not worth including just because it draws a card.
LATE: mostly used defensively, or to stop game ending cards like Time Stretch.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=492088
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Well perplex is good because of the it can either serve as a counter itself, trust me someone will let you counter an Omniscience with it and they have no counter of their own... if they discard their hand they would be sitting on a dead omniscience.
At worst you can use it to tutor up super hard counters like Dissipate, Faeire Trickery, Rethink, or any thing else that is useful at 3 mana, there is quite a bit at that mana cost. Its not perfect but if it was any better it might be a rare, especially with the transmute on it.
If people have infinite mana then things are kind of bad to begin with, its the bane of X spells... stuff like G-wave, comet storm, white sun, entreat the angels, or even just as a tech to force your opponent to tap out more making it near impossible to use.
Also a some very good "non counters" include Time Stop and Mana Short used correctly they can invalidate an entire turn and can be just as disrupting.
Edit: I see you discounting a fair amount of cards due to "infinite mana solutions" are infinite mana combos really heavy in your meta?
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Faith & Wrath (Control)
Jarad, Life & Death (Reanimator)
Merieke, Seduction & Obedience (Control/Steals)
Intet, Dreamworld (Aggro/Control)
Rith, Predators (Aggro)
I would run Remand as well, but I don't have one on-hand.
The reason for the selection in this particular deck is that because I'm cascading so much, I don't want my counterspells you accidentally counter my cascade creature! With Venser, I can Boomerang something, or I can Remand my cascade spell and go again. With Ertai and Glen Elendra, I have the luxury of activating the counterspell ability later. With Delay (and Remand, once I get a copy), if I accidentally cascade into the counter, I've just delayed myself a little bit, not done any real damage.
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In case you didn't know, spelljack is another good counter to cascade into. Hit your own Maelstrom Wanderer with it and enjoy 2 more cascade triggers.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I agree and I was sold on Perplex. It really is good because unless they already have a considerable board presence, no one wants to discard their hand. Time Stop continues to be a favorite of mine, though it is still expensive. I need to find room for it none the less. Mana Short will draw so much hate from one player it's not even funny. It has to be used during upkeep, because in response to the spell it's already paid for.
Same problem as Syncopate, useless vs infinite mana, or just big mana in general.
I'll say it again for those who just posted. Force of Will is TERRIBLE in 3-color EDH, and BARELY worth it in mono Blue. Why? its 2-for-1 cards, and exiles a card you probably could have used, and it has to be a BLUE card. At least Foil lets you pitch any card+island, but it's DISCARDED, not EXILED.
Pact is spending your next turn's mana, which if your into that that is cool, but I personally hate spending 5 mana for a counterspell especially if i'm taking a loan against myself to do it, in which Mana Short could kill me.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR