Browsing through this forum, many people said that spot removals like terminate or lightning bolt and even path to exile are too narrow to use in EDH, it doesn't have that big impact in a multiplayer game where a mass removal is more desirable...
But in a multiplayer game, sometime I'm faced with a situation that kept me thinking I should have a spot removal to handle this creature, often a General.. and it got me some idea that removing and destroying a general several time could hinder that player to cast his general again due its expensive cost (if not the General is already expensive in the first place), and it's important when facing a deck whose strategy is based on its general
So my question is, what do you guys think about spot removal in EDH, how many is ideal for EDH, both to 1 on 1 EDH and multiplayer? and beside swords to plowshares or condemn or terminate what are the staple spot removal for EDH?
For what colors are you looking at? Most EDH decks, unless they're geared specifically to 1v1 games, tend to just run sweepers instead.
White has the most staple sweepers, as it also has the cheapest ones- Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshare, Condemn, Oblation and Oblivion Ring are the ones that first leap to mind. Blue has a few options in Spin Into Myth and Hinder (technically a counter, but it kind of also acts like spot removal). Black has all the edicts, and red's got the burn. Green. Well, Hornet Sting?
That said, I'd say...maybe 3-4 spot removal spells, though it depends on your style of deck in multiplayer.
For 1v1, you can basically just swap out sweepers for more efficient spot removal, so maybe 5-10 for aggro decks? That's a pretty wild estimate on my part, though.
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EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
I play mono black with drana, kalastria bloodchief and mono blue with vendilion clique well I already run hinder and 3 other unsummon effect on blue because it goes with vendilion ability... as for black I play kiku's shadow, chill to the bone, cruel edict because they could handle most of the general in my meta..
but still I want to know other great spot removal, so maybe when i build another EDH deck, i'll put it into consideration...
In multiplayer I would only run a few spot removal spells, and it really depends on what colors you are in. In white I run Swords to Plowshares and Oblation, in blue Spin into Myth and Capsize, in black I tend to run creatures that are also removal like Shriekmaw just because of how easy it is to recur. Red and green don't have very good spot removal so I tend to keep it out of those decks (Fissure maybe?)
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Halfdane Sek'Kuar
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Even in multiplayer, it's still a good idea to have some spot removal handy so you can get rid of a problematic card in a pinch. There will be many a time when you want to have the power to take something out *right now* even if it's just a 1-for-1 trade at best.
For 1v1, spot removal is MUCH more effective simply because you don't have to devote your resources and energy to multiple players. It's also really needed for cheap and effective generals like Braids, Rofellos, Zur, Sisay, Gaddock Teeg, and Jhoira.
Spot removal is great because as long as people's big creatures are attacking people who aren't you, those creatures are helping you out. People often run too much board wipe and then have to do all 120 points of damage themselves.
I tend to be happy with around 5-10 spot removal spells, depending on how many other answers I have.
I run Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares along with Capsize in my UWGwafa Hazid, Profiteer deck. I used to ignore them but there were too many instances of just one creature wreaking havoc on the board so I was forced to make room for them. They are really good for dealing with those indestructible creatures.
I prefer to run Oblivion Stone, Nev's Disk and some decent enchants to protect myself rather than spot removal. So many other players run mass removal, the game is almost always being reset. There is generally more creatures being killed, than enchants being destroyed, unless your group is heavy green. One of the best overall removal spells is Austere Command, and should be an auto include in any deck running white. If I run any spot removal it would be cards like Path and Plowshares, stuff that removes cards from the game, or sends it back into the library.
Often a strong board position vs a poor position is a creature or two. I tend to run both when giving the option. Spot removal however has my preference in multiplayer, mostly due to the politics involved. I got a lot of browny points for using Time Stop on Emrakule, or using duplicante to kill off a Darksteel Colossus. Board sweeps i use when one or two players are totaly out of hand. 15 tokens, Gaea's Cradle, 5 various legends with a Sissay player.. Disk, o-stone or Keg is then needed.
Well, my Xira tends to be more geared towards 1v1 than multiplayer, I run Terminate, Resounding Thunder, Urza's Rage, Profane Command, Putrefy, and Comet Storm (still looking for a Pulse for the deck, and I'm not counting Violent Ultimatum as spot removal). In addition, I run six or seven sweepers and four more creatures with EtB kill effects. It works well enough for me, both in 1v1 and multiplayer.
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EDH FTW
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG WRG Mayael the Anima WRG WB Triad of Fates WB BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR WR Aurelia the Warleader WR WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
My 1v1 deck runs Capsize, Swords, Path, Condemn, Oblivion Ring, and Prison Term, as Well as Wrath of God, Day of Judgment, and Damnation. That and a Cubic Butt Ton (Why yes, that is a widely accepted unit of measurement) of Counterspells make up my removal Suite.
It's meta dependent and then board state dependent. If you have mana reflection out, and your opponent has mana reflection out, would you rather take out the one opposing MR or wipe the board of both? Sometimes being able to destroy PITA things that are not yours while still letting you keep your stuff is extremely good.
Spot removal can be better than sweepers, as good as sweepers, and worse than sweepers. So you can't really say "sweepers are strictly better than spot removal". Especially if said removal is really flexible, like Vindicate.
As for the TS' particular question. Black removal spells that kick ass, although with your general you may be able to get away with fewer: Sudden Death - uncounterable, unredirectable, unrespondable. Also kills a surprisingly high number of targets or just makes combat math get flipped upside down. Rend Flesh - 3 mana kills almost anything Slaughter - has restrictions but buyback is so good in this format Snuff Out - lets you bait creatures by being tapped out Devour in Shadow - kills anything sans indescructible Slaughter Pact - same as snuff out, just costs some mana later
Phtytsis - I can't spell it, it's from Time Spiral, it kills anything and hurts the controller.
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"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
The key to staying alive in multiplayer EDH is to have more versatility than the other players. spot removal is a good idea, and anyone saying otherwise obviously has never had to stare down a creature that could potentially remove them from the game.
However, if you're going to do as much, see if it can't double as something else. I sometimes run mortify simply because there are moments I need the enchantment removal more. Also, if it's recurable, even better! executioner's capsule has a place in my Sharuum deck simply because academy ruins exists.
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In my Drana deck, I run things like seal of doom, gotta <3 the rattlesnakes. I've also had Nemesis Trap since I first saw it as a replacement to Broken Visage, someone is always playing white, and if you gank their general they can't recast it for the turn, cause it makes a token copy.
I'm always sort of amazed at people who suggest running few-to-none targeted removal in multiplayer. Sure, it doesn't trade 1 for 10, but if you're running a lot of sweepers, people are going to try to kill you ASAP if they have a strong board position, to avoid getting it swept. If you're running a lot of targeted removal, people won't want to mess with you, or they know you'll waste their board position and leave them open to assault by everyone else.
Targeted removal (instant-speed, preferrably) is really, really good. If someone is threatening to attack you, threaten to kill all their attackers, and NO ONE ELSE'S creatures. That will put them in a very bad position. A sweeper just resets everyone, and no one is at a disadvantage (some exceptions may apply, YMMV). Also, you can use targeted removal against things that are bothering other players, and those players will then help YOU out if you play your cards right.
Of course, a few sweepers (preferrably tutorable ones) are usually important. My personal favorite is probably Rout for the instant speed ability, and of course Hallowed Burial is brutal, and Oblivion stone is nice since it removes almost anything and works in any color.
For a "typical" EDH deck, I would use around 3 mass-removal spells and 7 targeted removal. But I doubt any of my decks actually follow that, there's no such thing as a "typical" deck for me. If you're looking for a cookie-cutter answer, though, that's what I'd do.
I'm surprised to not see Gate to Phyrexia included, it's one of the best black cards in EDH in my opinion even if you arent building a sac deck, just out of its sheer power. It's uncontrollable sac, as its only 1 time and during upkeep only, but for the effect it gets in MonoB, it's invaluable. It and Phyrexian Tribute are the only two black cards I know of that even say "destroy target artifact". Only other two options you have are Spine of Ish Sah and Karn Liberated
I tend to run more spot removal then sweepers because unless someone is running a token deck or the board is clogged spot removal usually deals with the problem card. On a related not more people should run Pongify, and Rapid Hybridization.
I don't think I've a set number of removals in each of my decks, but it's usually in the range of 5-15 slots dedicated to removal. Mind you, I'm talking about removal for artifacts, enchantments, lands, etc. and not just creatures. It honestly depends on your playstyle and your playgroup's dynamics, though personally, I like being able to get rid of troublesome permanents.
My rule of thumb is to run at least one removal spell to deal with each type of permanent I might see my opponents play, but then again, I'm known in my playgroup for packing tons of removal in my EDH decks (I think at one point, my bant control deck had something in the range of 20 counters/tucks/sweepers/exile effects).
Why don't you swap one of those out for Beast Within?
To answer the OP's question, it depends largely on your meta, but you need to go under the assumption that there will always be at least one problematic artifact/enchantment every game, and that there will be a time when it's better to get rid of a creature rather than all of them.
But in a multiplayer game, sometime I'm faced with a situation that kept me thinking I should have a spot removal to handle this creature, often a General.. and it got me some idea that removing and destroying a general several time could hinder that player to cast his general again due its expensive cost (if not the General is already expensive in the first place), and it's important when facing a deck whose strategy is based on its general
So my question is, what do you guys think about spot removal in EDH, how many is ideal for EDH, both to 1 on 1 EDH and multiplayer? and beside swords to plowshares or condemn or terminate what are the staple spot removal for EDH?
Thanks!
White has the most staple sweepers, as it also has the cheapest ones- Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshare, Condemn, Oblation and Oblivion Ring are the ones that first leap to mind. Blue has a few options in Spin Into Myth and Hinder (technically a counter, but it kind of also acts like spot removal). Black has all the edicts, and red's got the burn. Green. Well, Hornet Sting?
That said, I'd say...maybe 3-4 spot removal spells, though it depends on your style of deck in multiplayer.
For 1v1, you can basically just swap out sweepers for more efficient spot removal, so maybe 5-10 for aggro decks? That's a pretty wild estimate on my part, though.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
but still I want to know other great spot removal, so maybe when i build another EDH deck, i'll put it into consideration...
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
For 1v1, spot removal is MUCH more effective simply because you don't have to devote your resources and energy to multiple players. It's also really needed for cheap and effective generals like Braids, Rofellos, Zur, Sisay, Gaddock Teeg, and Jhoira.
I tend to be happy with around 5-10 spot removal spells, depending on how many other answers I have.
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Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR
WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG
WRG Mayael the Anima WRG
WB Triad of Fates WB
BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR
WR Aurelia the Warleader WR
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
Spot removal can be better than sweepers, as good as sweepers, and worse than sweepers. So you can't really say "sweepers are strictly better than spot removal". Especially if said removal is really flexible, like Vindicate.
As for the TS' particular question. Black removal spells that kick ass, although with your general you may be able to get away with fewer:
Sudden Death - uncounterable, unredirectable, unrespondable. Also kills a surprisingly high number of targets or just makes combat math get flipped upside down.
Rend Flesh - 3 mana kills almost anything
Slaughter - has restrictions but buyback is so good in this format
Snuff Out - lets you bait creatures by being tapped out
Devour in Shadow - kills anything sans indescructible
Slaughter Pact - same as snuff out, just costs some mana later
Phtytsis - I can't spell it, it's from Time Spiral, it kills anything and hurts the controller.
However, if you're going to do as much, see if it can't double as something else. I sometimes run mortify simply because there are moments I need the enchantment removal more. Also, if it's recurable, even better! executioner's capsule has a place in my Sharuum deck simply because academy ruins exists.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
Enchantments can be dis-enchanted. Spin into myth and Hinder tuck the general in one of the hardest places to fetch it from, the Library.
Put Captain Sisay at the bottom of someones deck and watch their playfield crumble has they loose their biggest source of card advantage.
Targeted removal (instant-speed, preferrably) is really, really good. If someone is threatening to attack you, threaten to kill all their attackers, and NO ONE ELSE'S creatures. That will put them in a very bad position. A sweeper just resets everyone, and no one is at a disadvantage (some exceptions may apply, YMMV). Also, you can use targeted removal against things that are bothering other players, and those players will then help YOU out if you play your cards right.
Of course, a few sweepers (preferrably tutorable ones) are usually important. My personal favorite is probably Rout for the instant speed ability, and of course Hallowed Burial is brutal, and Oblivion stone is nice since it removes almost anything and works in any color.
For a "typical" EDH deck, I would use around 3 mass-removal spells and 7 targeted removal. But I doubt any of my decks actually follow that, there's no such thing as a "typical" deck for me. If you're looking for a cookie-cutter answer, though, that's what I'd do.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
Very powerful, I'd definately consider it.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
Instant spot removal is of paramount importance.
My rule of thumb is to run at least one removal spell to deal with each type of permanent I might see my opponents play, but then again, I'm known in my playgroup for packing tons of removal in my EDH decks (I think at one point, my bant control deck had something in the range of 20 counters/tucks/sweepers/exile effects).
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Why don't you swap one of those out for Beast Within?
To answer the OP's question, it depends largely on your meta, but you need to go under the assumption that there will always be at least one problematic artifact/enchantment every game, and that there will be a time when it's better to get rid of a creature rather than all of them.
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