A Forewarning: The purpose of this thread is to discuss the various options that are available for land destruction, land denial, and punishing players for ramping. This is not a thread to discuss whether you like the strategy, hate the strategy, or even how to play the strategy. It is simply a resource. Keep the comments on topic.
Hey Ramp, Go Suck It
If there's one strategy that is overly abundant in Commander and is frowned upon to do anything about, it's excessive ramping. Whether it's Damia, Sage of Stone spending her first four turns casting ramp spells to fuel a game-winning Tooth and Nail or chain of Time Stretches, Azusa, Lost but Seeking dumping three of four lands a turn for an epic Overrun, or just someone without any restraint dumping lands on the field just because they can, ramp is everywhere. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, but unlike other most other strategies, players generally frown upon wrecking other people's manabases.
]
Proactive:
Proactive cards generally want to stop people from ramping before it gets too out of hand, or even before it starts. The easiest way to achieve this is by taking away a player's ability to search their library, although to date this is a global ability only, so the rest of the table will be affected as well.
Reactive cards take away the resources that the ramping player has spent their own resources and turns acquiring. These are generally in two forms: mass land destruction, and pinpoint removal. (You could also make the case for including artifact removal and counterspells.)
There are some creative answers to ramp, and they don't necessarily fit into the other categories. These include, (but not limited to) lessening the impact of ramp through group hug effects, and disrupting their mana, for example.
You answered your own question MLD. thats how you combat ramp, or you play control let them ramp out antill the cast TnN, or Gen Wave then counter have Cyclonic rift as back up if you need it. I really like rift then respond to my own rift by popping memory jar. So I say MLD and counter control
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Also I think your Taxing category should be broken out between Taxing and Lockdown, where the former is "making you pay for ramp" and the latter is "shutting off your resources in general, thus making ramp less effective". They interlock pretty well but feel very different in play.
My playgroup has never had trouble with excessive ramp, so my perspective is more theoretical, but the Tax effects seem much less effective than the other categories - it seems very hard to hit the space between "nobody cares about these taxes" and "my taxes are so overbearing I have to lock down the board to keep from being archenemied".
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
Also I think your Taxing category should be broken out between Taxing and Lockdown, where the former is "making you pay for ramp" and the latter is "shutting off your resources in general, thus making ramp less effective". They interlock pretty well but feel very different in play.
My playgroup has never had trouble with excessive ramp, so my perspective is more theoretical, but the Tax effects seem much less effective than the other categories - it seems very hard to hit the space between "nobody cares about these taxes" and "my taxes are so overbearing I have to lock down the board to keep from being archenemied".
Good point. Original post updated and comprehensive lists slowly starting.
I personally have never found mass Land Destruction to be terribly effective at curbing ramp. If anything, it focuses the rest of the table to killing you off before it happens, and typically the ramp player is the one in the best position to bounce back. The exception would be to be ahead of the curve with Mana rocks, but that only delays the turn on which the ramp player bypasses you in recovery.
The best answer I have seen to mass card draw is Spiteful Visions, it gives other people cards, lessening the value of added cards, and it also heavily taxes those who draw a lot of cards. In similar vein, anything that nets other people lands, or taxes heavy land rampers will hurt ramp.
Ankh of Mishra and Tunel Ignus are both very strong vs ramp. Fetchlands can still get around ignus by cracking on an opposing turn, but any sorcery or creature stapled ramp will hit it with that turns land drop. Any ramp effect that gets two lands, such as Harrow or Explosive Vegetation will as well.
Now, for my favored anti-ramp, and partially hidden gem, behold:
This is the biggest up yours you can give to any ramp deck, beyond any of the the other "shared" ramp spells. This only keeps everyone else on par with them, without giving them anything at all.
u prob should be more worried bout how to stop infinite combos or counter spells. ramp isnt douche bag tactic until u play azusa. simple cultivate, kodama reach, or rampant growth are my staples
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
GU Experiment Kraj- all your abilities belong to us WB Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts- battlecruiser GUB The Mimeoplasm- when graveyards are not safe RGW Mayael the Anima- i luv the fatties
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I play ramp decks alot nothing more effect than a good old armageddon. I can think of 1 game jn the many the zur player I okay has resolved geddon and lost to me <3 life from the loam. Aven is better than strangle becuase you can of a fetchland abd force then to waste control cards on it. Ramp decks tend to play wraths disenchant and versatile removal with STP bejbg an exception. Also vs non basics magus of the moon is brutal back to basics is worse. I also am dumbfounded by players who refuse to use counterspells on spells that ramp 2 or more like Skyshroud claim. Land equilibrium is normally underwhelming but it can be built around. For artifact ramp fast removal like natures claim is great at nabbing turn 1 sol ring that let's ramp decks explode into the game.
If you come on this thread talking crap and whining about what's fun or not fun, that a certain strategy is douchy, or otherwise derailing this thread with immaturity, GTFO.
u prob should be more worried bout how to stop infinite combos or counter spells. ramp isnt douche bag tactic until u play azusa. simple cultivate, kodama reach, or rampant growth are my staples
Reactive stuff appears in most decks, but not to a level that can fight dedicated ramp. MLD is an option, but if you're not built to profit from it (Kaalia, mana rocks, etc) then then it's probably not going to help.
Taxing has the problem that the taxes need to matter, but not make you a target for non-ramp players.
Lockdown will tend to make you the archenemy, rather than the ramp player.
Neutralize has all the problems Group Hug always has, which is that some decks will respond to Hug by winning on the spot. If I had to pick out Ramp Hug cards: Natural Balance (not actually hug, but definitely neutralizes) New Frontiers/Collective Voyage (great if the ramp player doesn't use enough basics) Veteran Explorer
You can also Neutralize by making it difficult to profit from huge amounts of mana. Blood Moon is a huge savage beating against fetchlands and other fancy stuff. My favorite solution to players is Curse of Echoes, but YMMV.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
Bend or Break along with politics to punish just the ramper?
It can, at times, be difficult to play politics when you're the one destroying lands. At best, if your table has fair threat assessment, you're going to take the ramp player down with you. You can do things to break that symmetry (LFtL, Crucible), though. That being said, I would usually rather be "that guy" and play MLD then just have everyone think I'm that guy and play Bend or Break.
I personally have never found mass Land Destruction to be terribly effective at curbing ramp. If anything, it focuses the rest of the table to killing you off before it happens, and typically the ramp player is the one in the best position to bounce back. The exception would be to be ahead of the curve with Mana rocks, but that only delays the turn on which the ramp player bypasses you in recovery.
That depends on how good the ramp player is. If they're not running recursion engines, you can beat them. If they run out all their lands and ramp spells before you bomb, you can beat them. I haven't (in my limited experience) seen a lot of ramp players who hold back resources. That style of gameplay does not lend itself to that archetype, though I can't say it doesn't happen. I just haven't seen it very often.
That being said, unless they're ramping without dropping real threats (for some unknown reason), they're likely to be ahead on creature presence even if you wrath lands, which can be problematic.
This is the biggest up yours you can give to any ramp deck, beyond any of the the other "shared" ramp spells. This only keeps everyone else on par with them, without giving them anything at all.
^This. I played Oath of Lieges in Hug, but decided to throw it into U/W control when I realized Hug folds to, well, everything. It's been my knight in shining armor.
It can, at times, be difficult to play politics when you're the one destroying lands. At best, if your table has fair threat assessment, you're going to take the ramp player down with you. You can do things to break that symmetry (LFtL, Crucible), though. That being said, I would usually rather be "that guy" and play MLD then just have everyone think I'm that guy and play Bend or Break.
The choice of opponents to pick a pile is each players. You can make sure everyone has all their lands survive BUT the massive ramper, he will get cut in half (most likely).
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
That depends on how good the ramp player is. If they're not running recursion engines, you can beat them. If they run out all their lands and ramp spells before you bomb, you can beat them. I haven't (in my limited experience) seen a lot of ramp players who hold back resources. That style of gameplay does not lend itself to that archetype, though I can't say it doesn't happen. I just haven't seen it very often.
That being said, unless they're ramping without dropping real threats (for some unknown reason), they're likely to be ahead on creature presence even if you wrath lands, which can be problematic.
I have to agree with this, a majority of the ramp players in my group don't hold anything back and just vomit everything they can on to the table. They just build their decks so that there's some resiliency in the threats that they cast, though nobody in my group holds back land resources. Every time an armageddon is dropped, it's pretty much game for everyone not playing the spell. Again, this is meta dependent, how good of a player you're facing, and how much they're used to seeing MLD.
That depends on how good the ramp player is. If they're not running recursion engines, you can beat them. If they run out all their lands and ramp spells before you bomb, you can beat them. I haven't (in my limited experience) seen a lot of ramp players who hold back resources. That style of gameplay does not lend itself to that archetype, though I can't say it doesn't happen. I just haven't seen it very often.
I have to agree with this, a majority of the ramp players in my group don't hold anything back and just vomit everything they can on to the table. They just build their decks so that there's some resiliency in the threats that they cast, though nobody in my group holds back land resources. Every time an armageddon is dropped, it's pretty much game for everyone not playing the spell. Again, this is meta dependent, how good of a player you're facing, and how much they're used to seeing MLD.
This depends greatly on the situation. Many players are coddled by metas with no land destruction, so there is no disadvantage to vomiting everything onto the table. Any player who has ever played against land destruction however, will start to hold recovery in their hand.
I tend to vomit all of my lands frequently as well, however, when playing against the player who I know loves to hold Land D to combat "Ramp," suddenly I flash out a Yavimaya Elder in front of a Cataclysm, while holding 2 lands in hand already, and a Life from the loam that has yet to be revealed, despite having lands in the grave and not dropping any for 2 turns. Oddly enough, 18 lands in play was enough for business to get done prior to it.
I also Krosan Gripped another player's Gilded Lotus, and lo, I was back on 40+ mana (20 lands and a personal flare) before anyone else had 5. The game was over quickly, as the Land D set everyone else back far more than me.
===
Most players vomit their lands, but that's likely caused by the lack of Land D in the meta. This makes the threat of Land D very potent in curbing the rate of expansion for the ramper, but doesn't much affect their position before or after it, if they are smart.
Now, if you combine it with a Mass Discard effect, well, that would put just about anyone out of the game, and shouldn't be viewed as exclusively shutting down ramp. That's just death.
If there's one strategy that is overly abundant in Commander and is frowned upon to do anything about, it's excessive ramping. Whether it's Damia, Sage of Stone spending her first four turns casting ramp spells to fuel a game-winning Tooth and Nail or chain of Time Stretches, Azusa, Lost but Seeking dumping three of four lands a turn for an epic Overrun, or just someone without any restraint dumping lands on the field just because they can, ramp is everywhere. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, but unlike other most other strategies, players generally frown upon wrecking other people's manabases.
Proactive:
Reactive:
Taxing:
Lockdown:
Miscellaneous
Balancing Act - It doesn't always take away their land, but they often pay the price for getting so far ahead.
Blood Moon
Burning Sands
Contamination
Curse of Echoes - That's a nice ramp spell, it'd be a shame if you gave everyone a copy
Curse of Marit Lage
Destructive Urge
Infernal Darkness
Magus of the Moon
Mana Web
Nettlevine Blight - You don't control what they attach this to, but it can slowly grind away at someone's resources.
Oath of Lieges - Because if everyone can keep up, is it really ramping?
Parallax Tide
Psychic Surgery - Doesn't stop them from ramping, but it annoys them when they do.
Ritual of Subdual
Steam Vines
Sunder
War's Toll
Ward of Bones - Costs 6, and only stops people from playing land, so it's pretty weak.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon, the Destroyer of Darksteel
BGW Teneb, the Harvester, my Pimped Out Reanimator
GUB The Mimeoplasm Ooze-Mill
GWU Rafiq the Exalted
Oh I like that. Slow as crap and expensive to cast, but it's effective.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Also I think your Taxing category should be broken out between Taxing and Lockdown, where the former is "making you pay for ramp" and the latter is "shutting off your resources in general, thus making ramp less effective". They interlock pretty well but feel very different in play.
My playgroup has never had trouble with excessive ramp, so my perspective is more theoretical, but the Tax effects seem much less effective than the other categories - it seems very hard to hit the space between "nobody cares about these taxes" and "my taxes are so overbearing I have to lock down the board to keep from being archenemied".
Good point. Original post updated and comprehensive lists slowly starting.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffThe best answer I have seen to mass card draw is Spiteful Visions, it gives other people cards, lessening the value of added cards, and it also heavily taxes those who draw a lot of cards. In similar vein, anything that nets other people lands, or taxes heavy land rampers will hurt ramp.
Ankh of Mishra and Tunel Ignus are both very strong vs ramp. Fetchlands can still get around ignus by cracking on an opposing turn, but any sorcery or creature stapled ramp will hit it with that turns land drop. Any ramp effect that gets two lands, such as Harrow or Explosive Vegetation will as well.
Now, for my favored anti-ramp, and partially hidden gem, behold:
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
u prob should be more worried bout how to stop infinite combos or counter spells. ramp isnt douche bag tactic until u play azusa. simple cultivate, kodama reach, or rampant growth are my staples
GU Experiment Kraj- all your abilities belong to us
WB Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts- battlecruiser
GUB The Mimeoplasm- when graveyards are not safe
RGW Mayael the Anima- i luv the fatties
And Leonin Arbiter. I think that's it for anti-search cards (?).
KAALIA SMASH!
Intet dreams of times ahead
and more
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Dwarven Miner and Dwarven Blastminer are reusable.
There are also a bunch of creatures with ETB effects. Avalanche Riders, Ravenous Baboons, Goblin Settler and Invader Parasite are examples. Maybe slow too, but works well if recursion or blink.
There is leveling the playing ground with cards like Keldon Firebombers, Natural Balance, Global Ruin etc.
When Primeval Titan was popular I put Parallax Tide into my Venser, Shaper Savant deck with other bounce and Stifle effects to exile lands.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Aaand we're off to a great start.
Proactive is my favorite category, and I hope Wizards prints a bunch more of them, because this is it as far as I know:
Shadow of Doubt (kind of lame, at least cantrips)
Leonin Arbiter (good early, won't help late)
Aven Mindcensor
Stranglehold
Mindlock Orb
Reactive stuff appears in most decks, but not to a level that can fight dedicated ramp. MLD is an option, but if you're not built to profit from it (Kaalia, mana rocks, etc) then then it's probably not going to help.
Taxing has the problem that the taxes need to matter, but not make you a target for non-ramp players.
Lockdown will tend to make you the archenemy, rather than the ramp player.
Neutralize has all the problems Group Hug always has, which is that some decks will respond to Hug by winning on the spot. If I had to pick out Ramp Hug cards:
Natural Balance (not actually hug, but definitely neutralizes)
New Frontiers/Collective Voyage (great if the ramp player doesn't use enough basics)
Veteran Explorer
You can also Neutralize by making it difficult to profit from huge amounts of mana. Blood Moon is a huge savage beating against fetchlands and other fancy stuff. My favorite solution to
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
It can, at times, be difficult to play politics when you're the one destroying lands. At best, if your table has fair threat assessment, you're going to take the ramp player down with you. You can do things to break that symmetry (LFtL, Crucible), though. That being said, I would usually rather be "that guy" and play MLD then just have everyone think I'm that guy and play Bend or Break.
That depends on how good the ramp player is. If they're not running recursion engines, you can beat them. If they run out all their lands and ramp spells before you bomb, you can beat them. I haven't (in my limited experience) seen a lot of ramp players who hold back resources. That style of gameplay does not lend itself to that archetype, though I can't say it doesn't happen. I just haven't seen it very often.
That being said, unless they're ramping without dropping real threats (for some unknown reason), they're likely to be ahead on creature presence even if you wrath lands, which can be problematic.
^This. I played Oath of Lieges in Hug, but decided to throw it into U/W control when I realized Hug folds to, well, everything. It's been my knight in shining armor.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
I have to agree with this, a majority of the ramp players in my group don't hold anything back and just vomit everything they can on to the table. They just build their decks so that there's some resiliency in the threats that they cast, though nobody in my group holds back land resources. Every time an armageddon is dropped, it's pretty much game for everyone not playing the spell. Again, this is meta dependent, how good of a player you're facing, and how much they're used to seeing MLD.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffThis depends greatly on the situation. Many players are coddled by metas with no land destruction, so there is no disadvantage to vomiting everything onto the table. Any player who has ever played against land destruction however, will start to hold recovery in their hand.
I tend to vomit all of my lands frequently as well, however, when playing against the player who I know loves to hold Land D to combat "Ramp," suddenly I flash out a Yavimaya Elder in front of a Cataclysm, while holding 2 lands in hand already, and a Life from the loam that has yet to be revealed, despite having lands in the grave and not dropping any for 2 turns. Oddly enough, 18 lands in play was enough for business to get done prior to it.
I also Krosan Gripped another player's Gilded Lotus, and lo, I was back on 40+ mana (20 lands and a personal flare) before anyone else had 5. The game was over quickly, as the Land D set everyone else back far more than me.
===
Most players vomit their lands, but that's likely caused by the lack of Land D in the meta. This makes the threat of Land D very potent in curbing the rate of expansion for the ramper, but doesn't much affect their position before or after it, if they are smart.
Now, if you combine it with a Mass Discard effect, well, that would put just about anyone out of the game, and shouldn't be viewed as exclusively shutting down ramp. That's just death.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek