I hear it all the time. I suggest this card, since it nets you CA every turn, especially important in mono-white, and the other person fires back and says something along the lines of "It's too risky! If they blow it up you're screwed!"
I just don't get it. If you have it early and fear it getting blown up, you can get 3-5 Plains with little to no risk at all, and getting +2-4 CA is still amazing in mono-white. If you get it late and don't need land drops anymore, you can get most if not all of your plains, and at worst, you just thinned your library of bad draws. It seems like everyone assumes you have to get all your plains.
Even if you play Horizons and it immediately gets blown up (Which, IMO, would be a bad play since there are far more dangerous things to target than Horizons), you lose basically nothing. No CA loss, and losing cards from your library doesn't really matter in the long run.
What boggles my mind even more is that I almost always see in that same list, by that same person who says Horizons will always get blown up immediately, is the card Extraplanar Lens.
So people are essentially telling me, losing potentially 3-5 plains from your library is worse than losing a land drop and getting 2-for-1ed. And that while every player is so afraid of an enchantment that nets the player an extra plains every turn, they won't care about an artifact that doubles your mana.
I just don't get it. There is more risk involved with Lens than Horizons. Losing Lens is actually card disadvantage and tempo loss. Losing Horizons just makes it potentially harder to draw a plains every once in a while (Which may or may not be a bad thing).
So please, enlighten me on this. I'd like to hear an actual good reason why people won't run Horizons (And will run Lens). I can sort of understand a lot more if you run both or don't run both, but to have Lens but not Horizons just seems completely irrational.
It's not. The card is extemely good for the reasons you have proposed. Nobody plays it right -- Most people siphon ALL the plains out of their deck with it, for some reason, and it gets blown up and you have no land. The whole idea is to only get a few. Even if it does get destroyed, that's less lands for you to draw, meaning more business spells in your hand.
tl;dr: I agree with you 100%. I love this card in mono-white.
I think you've said everything. It's a great card as long as you don't shoot yourself in the foot, but that's pretty difficult to do, anyway.
A lot of people said in a poll that they'd be willing to take 8 damage their first upkeep with Sylvan Library for the 2 extra cards. I think that's actually more dangerous than risking, say, 5 Plains in your deck for a potential 5 extra cards.
My issue with it is more that it is slow, and generally worse than land tax. Gift of estates and tithe are also better. If you need endless horizons you are probably better off adding additional tutors for land tax. Land tax also has better synergy with scroll rack.
Compare it to phyrexian arena for three mana and you will see why this is much worse.
I do agree with the OP that little risk is involved. People just generally don't like exiling their stuff, though.
Endless Horizons is an alright card for mono-white when used correctly, card advantage is always good. It IS certainly lower on the totem pole than many of the alternatives such as Land Tax and Weathered Wayfarer and is about on par with Journeyer's Kite.
With that said, this reminds me of the thread I saw earlier about why more decks don't run Tithe... not everyone has the knowledge or desire to build their decks in the most optimal way possible. This is especially true with cards that are skill testers.
Mono-white may need to be optimized the most to compete though, so raising awareness for the few ways it DOES have of getting card advantage is good.
The risk is that you spent 4 mana on your own turn to do something that doesn't provide any value until it makes it around the table once, and will be nullified by the next Akroma's Vengeance/Austere Command. The degree to which that's a problem is metagame-dependent, and applies regardless of how many lands you put in it.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
Yeah, it's good as long as you aren't stupid about it. Grab 3-5 plains with it and be happy for the extra cards. Nobody blows it up with 1-2 cards under it unless it's Austere Command. Everyone will gun for it if you get greedy.
The risk is that you spent 4 mana on your own turn to do something that doesn't provide any value until it makes it around the table once, and will be nullified by the next Akroma's Vengeance/Austere Command.
The same could be said about nearly all cards that bolster board state without an ETB effect.
I think the issue here (and I may be wrong, I don't read a lot of mono white discussion) is that while Endless Horizons clearly has applications and is a good, proactive card, that doesn't necessarily mean it makes the cut to be in everyone's final decklist. As it has already been mentioned, it is not even the best card for the list at what it does, so it comes down to how many effects of that like do you want to use. That said, OP, you sound like you have a very good understanding of the card, and will get very good mileage out of it, regardless of if it is the absolute most optimized card for a mono white list, and as such, I suggest you keep running it. Do the play testing for us. It will be fun to see how your results with the card work out, and will go a long way toward making people realize the potential of the card.
I must note, though, that while I understand you are just trying to set up an example of why the CA loss of Endless Horizons is no Earth-shattering even if it's blown up off the bat, you must admit that the risk/reward prospects of a card like Extraplanar Lens are much more worthwhile... So I agree with your example in the narrow viewpoint of the raw card advantage loss, but not in a more encompassing perspective of that making Horizons on par with Lens as a card for the deck.
Yeah, it's good as long as you aren't stupid about it. Grab 3-5 plains with it and be happy for the extra cards. Nobody blows it up with 1-2 cards under it unless it's Austere Command. Everyone will gun for it if you get greedy.
Lesson: Know how to play MTG.
The same could be said about nearly all cards that bolster board state without an ETB effect.
The same could be said about nearly all cards that bolster board state without an ETB effect.
That's right, it could, and frequently does; because in a sweep-heavy metagame, it's absolutely true. Hence, "The degree to which that's a problem is metagame-dependent, and applies regardless of how many lands you put in it." I'm still surprised that decks without Akroma's Vengeance exist, if that gives you an idea how sweep-heavy my metagame is.
The cards worth that risk usually have such great impact for their mana cost that they're worth trying to keep for a turn. I'm not sure EH's slow-burn land-drawing is good enough to warrant its casting cost. Maybe in an enchantments-matter deck?
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
That's right, it could, and frequently does; because in a sweep-heavy metagame, it's absolutely true. Hence, "The degree to which that's a problem is metagame-dependent, and applies regardless of how many lands you put in it." I'm still surprised that W decks without Akroma's Vengeance exist, if that gives you an idea how sweep-heavy my metagame is.
Just because removal exists doesn't mean people will use it the second this card hits the table. If your meta is overly sweep-heavy, it may be prudent to wait until after the first major sweeper to drop Endless Horizons as it will be much safer.
Most of the time I see it as pay 4 mana exile 3 lands in your library which happens quite often. When I see a bigger target for Krosan Grip, etc. I aim for Endless Horizons anyway!
"Dies to removal" is never a good argument to make, usually.
As I've said before, I like the card, I do, but lens only costs 3, it only takes one of your lands, and it makes all of your lands better. With Horizons I am at most getting one more mana a turn. With lens, I double whatever mana I have out.
Then when it comes to land fetchers, I would just much rather run things like Tithe and Land Tax especially for how they work with Scroll Rack.
I will say though that in a Mono-W build that isn't either being super aggressive or stax-y, this card is worth testing out, as the OP said it can thin your deck out nicely if you're not stupid with it. I personally don't like the risk because I know I will usually see enchantment removal in the games I play, and I also just don't run enough plains in multicolored decks for it to be useful to me.
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Most of the time I see it as pay 4 mana exile 3 lands in your library which happens quite often. When I see a bigger target for Krosan Grip, etc. I aim for Endless Horizons anyway!
Why would you waste a KGrip on Endless Horizons? You don't have more important targets to hit, like Jitte/Swords/Skullclamp/Land Tax/Rhystic Study/Phyrexian Arena/Sylvan Library/Divining Top/Scroll Rack/Oblivion Stone/any number of actually good cards? Or do you just like getting rolled by good decks?
I like EH for being a decent card in Mono-W that can give you some card advantage and doesn't present a big target like Extraplanar Lens does. It's pretty good value, even if it is expensive. My meta has unusually light enchantment removal, though, so if megasweeps were more common here I might not be inclined to play it as much.
Yes, "dies to removal" is a bad argument, which is why I'm only talking about sweepers. Yes, you can mitigate the risk by playing around sweepers. Yes, it's unlikely that anyone would sweep just to be rid of Endless Horizons; you still lose your investment in the next sweep. The OP asked for an explanation of the risk, and I provided one. It is a risk. None of the above makes it not a risk.
The OP then told us about his friend who thinks Extraplanar Lens is less risky, which is just kind of insane. Mana doublers are typically worth spot-removing, while Endless Horizons is not.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
This card is stupid good for white card advantage and I would have absolutely no problem playing it if I can make myself get one. Just take 4 or 5 lands with it. It goes really well with Emeria, the Sky Ruin too for what it's worth.
I think the issue here (and I may be wrong, I don't read a lot of mono white discussion) is that while Endless Horizons clearly has applications and is a good, proactive card, that doesn't necessarily mean it makes the cut to be in everyone's final decklist. As it has already been mentioned, it is not even the best card for the list at what it does, so it comes down to how many effects of that like do you want to use. That said, OP, you sound like you have a very good understanding of the card, and will get very good mileage out of it, regardless of if it is the absolute most optimized card for a mono white list, and as such, I suggest you keep running it. Do the play testing for us. It will be fun to see how your results with the card work out, and will go a long way toward making people realize the potential of the card.
I must note, though, that while I understand you are just trying to set up an example of why the CA loss of Endless Horizons is no Earth-shattering even if it's blown up off the bat, you must admit that the risk/reward prospects of a card like Extraplanar Lens are much more worthwhile... So I agree with your example in the narrow viewpoint of the raw card advantage loss, but not in a more encompassing perspective of that making Horizons on par with Lens as a card for the deck.
Considering how few cards mono-white has to generate card advantage, I run every single semi-decent card (Yes, including stuff like Inheritance). Yes, I'm sure some people simply don't think it's good enough, which is fine - I'm talking about the people who refuse to run it under some notion that it's "too risky".
Most of the time I see it as pay 4 mana exile 3 lands in your library which happens quite often. When I see a bigger target for Krosan Grip, etc. I aim for Endless Horizons anyway!
So Horizons is bad because people are irrational with their decisions?
Yes, "dies to removal" is a bad argument, which is why I'm only talking about sweepers. Yes, you can mitigate the risk by playing around sweepers. Yes, it's unlikely that anyone would sweep just to be rid of Endless Horizons; you still lose your investment in the next sweep. The OP asked for an explanation of the risk, and I provided one. It is a risk. None of the above makes it not a risk.
The OP then told us about his friend who thinks Extraplanar Lens is less risky, which is just kind of insane. Mana doublers are typically worth spot-removing, while Endless Horizons is not.
You are taking Plains from your library. You are not losing board position, and you are not losing card advantage. the only tempo loss is from playing the card itself. So the only loss that you could possibly get is the possibility of drawing less lands in the future. The horror! Most decks would sell their first-born to draw less lands in the future.
It's not my friend that says that, it's people on these boards. I ask why they aren't running Horizons, they say it's "too risky"... yet they run Lens.
If you're playing mono-white that's anywhere close to control, you should play Horizons. My excellent experiences with it FAR outweigh the times it's been blown up immediately (almost never). It's so frickin' good to thin your deck AND guarantee land drops in mono-white. It gets Emeria online very quickly too. The card is good.
Horizons is unbelievably good. It isn't a risky play when you fish out three to five lands, as the OP said. If you've got all the lands you need, consider exiling a lot, or even all, of your lands. The card parity you'll get is strong in a colour that has almost no card advantage or selection.
Cast it before you run an armageddon out. See how it goes. If people remove it, they can regret it later when you're hitting them with a Jitte or Loxodon Warhammer, or you're getting endless value out of a Nim Deathmantle. Land Tax, Tithe, and Gift of Estates are good, but, really, you'd play all of those AND Endless Horizons.
Also, as previously mentioned, it finds shocks and duals with plains as their type, and also Mistveil Plains, if you're into that sort of thing (hey, it counts as a white permanent for Mistveil Plains, too). In blue, it can supply cards for your Forbid wall. In black, you can fuel a Demonic Collusion with it.
I'm not usually a guy who says 'staple' a lot, but, I think that for mono-white, Endless Horizons surely is. In blue and/or red, it can definitely get value too.
You are taking Plains from your library. You are not losing board position, and you are not losing card advantage. the only tempo loss is from playing the card itself. So the only loss that you could possibly get is the possibility of drawing less lands in the future. The horror! Most decks would sell their first-born to draw less lands in the future.
You asked what the risks were. Nobody else mentioned tempo loss. Tempo loss is a risk with running Endless Horizons. The value of tempo changes from one metagame to the next, which affects the severity of the risk. The other end of the balance is the utility of the effect, and there are a few options within which do this same thing, but better.
I have made no other argument for or against running the card, and I don't get where people are coming out with "dies to removal" or "card disadvantage". It's not terrible! I don't run it because I usually have better options for the same effect. I'm partial to Armillary Sphere, which works faster, doesn't require me to keep track of it, and puts about the same number of lands into my hand.
It's not my friend that says that, it's people on these boards. I ask why they aren't running Horizons, they say it's "too risky"... yet they run Lens.
I don't get why people like Lens so much. If I see it turn 3, I will spend an un-kicked Dismantling Blow to get rid of it before you untap, and I won't apologize.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
I asked for a friend's advice on Endless Horizons (he's much more skilled at MTG than I am) and he gave me generally the same argument about it being "risky." I mean, sure, if you put 15 Plains under it, it is risky. It's just begging to be blown up, but I don't see the problem of putting 3 or so under it just to make sure you have the early land drops. You don't loose too much if it get's blown up and it's not really a giant target anyway if it only has a few.
I think that in a meta with no MLD, taking a dozen of plains cards out of your deck is often the right call. If you're only planning on getting 3-4 plains cards you might as well just play gift of estates.
As its been stated, I think the biggest risk with Horizons is tempo loss. Which is legitimate. White has much cheaper(CMC) options that do the same thing, if not much better. I guess it's a good budget alternative to something like Land Tax, but given the option between the two I'd almost always run Tax over it.
A good thing to keep in mind is that late game if you draw this and you have enough plains out already, you can take everything out and just be drawing business. This is assuming Armageddon is not prominent in your metagame.
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I hear it all the time. I suggest this card, since it nets you CA every turn, especially important in mono-white, and the other person fires back and says something along the lines of "It's too risky! If they blow it up you're screwed!"
I just don't get it. If you have it early and fear it getting blown up, you can get 3-5 Plains with little to no risk at all, and getting +2-4 CA is still amazing in mono-white. If you get it late and don't need land drops anymore, you can get most if not all of your plains, and at worst, you just thinned your library of bad draws. It seems like everyone assumes you have to get all your plains.
Even if you play Horizons and it immediately gets blown up (Which, IMO, would be a bad play since there are far more dangerous things to target than Horizons), you lose basically nothing. No CA loss, and losing cards from your library doesn't really matter in the long run.
What boggles my mind even more is that I almost always see in that same list, by that same person who says Horizons will always get blown up immediately, is the card Extraplanar Lens.
So people are essentially telling me, losing potentially 3-5 plains from your library is worse than losing a land drop and getting 2-for-1ed. And that while every player is so afraid of an enchantment that nets the player an extra plains every turn, they won't care about an artifact that doubles your mana.
I just don't get it. There is more risk involved with Lens than Horizons. Losing Lens is actually card disadvantage and tempo loss. Losing Horizons just makes it potentially harder to draw a plains every once in a while (Which may or may not be a bad thing).
So please, enlighten me on this. I'd like to hear an actual good reason why people won't run Horizons (And will run Lens). I can sort of understand a lot more if you run both or don't run both, but to have Lens but not Horizons just seems completely irrational.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
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W Mangara of Corondor W
tl;dr: I agree with you 100%. I love this card in mono-white.
Also in not mono-white...it gets duals!
A lot of people said in a poll that they'd be willing to take 8 damage their first upkeep with Sylvan Library for the 2 extra cards. I think that's actually more dangerous than risking, say, 5 Plains in your deck for a potential 5 extra cards.
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Compare it to phyrexian arena for three mana and you will see why this is much worse.
I do agree with the OP that little risk is involved. People just generally don't like exiling their stuff, though.
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Endless Horizons is an alright card for mono-white when used correctly, card advantage is always good. It IS certainly lower on the totem pole than many of the alternatives such as Land Tax and Weathered Wayfarer and is about on par with Journeyer's Kite.
With that said, this reminds me of the thread I saw earlier about why more decks don't run Tithe... not everyone has the knowledge or desire to build their decks in the most optimal way possible. This is especially true with cards that are skill testers.
Mono-white may need to be optimized the most to compete though, so raising awareness for the few ways it DOES have of getting card advantage is good.
Lesson: Know how to play MTG.
The same could be said about nearly all cards that bolster board state without an ETB effect.
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I must note, though, that while I understand you are just trying to set up an example of why the CA loss of Endless Horizons is no Earth-shattering even if it's blown up off the bat, you must admit that the risk/reward prospects of a card like Extraplanar Lens are much more worthwhile... So I agree with your example in the narrow viewpoint of the raw card advantage loss, but not in a more encompassing perspective of that making Horizons on par with Lens as a card for the deck.
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This. I like Endless Horizons myself, though I'd rather run Terrain Generator, Expedition Map, and Land Tax/Gift of Estates/Tithe/
That's right, it could, and frequently does; because in a sweep-heavy metagame, it's absolutely true. Hence, "The degree to which that's a problem is metagame-dependent, and applies regardless of how many lands you put in it." I'm still surprised that decks without Akroma's Vengeance exist, if that gives you an idea how sweep-heavy my metagame is.
The cards worth that risk usually have such great impact for their mana cost that they're worth trying to keep for a turn. I'm not sure EH's slow-burn land-drawing is good enough to warrant its casting cost. Maybe in an enchantments-matter deck?
Just because removal exists doesn't mean people will use it the second this card hits the table. If your meta is overly sweep-heavy, it may be prudent to wait until after the first major sweeper to drop Endless Horizons as it will be much safer.
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As I've said before, I like the card, I do, but lens only costs 3, it only takes one of your lands, and it makes all of your lands better. With Horizons I am at most getting one more mana a turn. With lens, I double whatever mana I have out.
Then when it comes to land fetchers, I would just much rather run things like Tithe and Land Tax especially for how they work with Scroll Rack.
I will say though that in a Mono-W build that isn't either being super aggressive or stax-y, this card is worth testing out, as the OP said it can thin your deck out nicely if you're not stupid with it. I personally don't like the risk because I know I will usually see enchantment removal in the games I play, and I also just don't run enough plains in multicolored decks for it to be useful to me.
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Why would you waste a KGrip on Endless Horizons? You don't have more important targets to hit, like Jitte/Swords/Skullclamp/Land Tax/Rhystic Study/Phyrexian Arena/Sylvan Library/Divining Top/Scroll Rack/Oblivion Stone/any number of actually good cards? Or do you just like getting rolled by good decks?
I like EH for being a decent card in Mono-W that can give you some card advantage and doesn't present a big target like Extraplanar Lens does. It's pretty good value, even if it is expensive. My meta has unusually light enchantment removal, though, so if megasweeps were more common here I might not be inclined to play it as much.
The OP then told us about his friend who thinks Extraplanar Lens is less risky, which is just kind of insane. Mana doublers are typically worth spot-removing, while Endless Horizons is not.
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Considering how few cards mono-white has to generate card advantage, I run every single semi-decent card (Yes, including stuff like Inheritance). Yes, I'm sure some people simply don't think it's good enough, which is fine - I'm talking about the people who refuse to run it under some notion that it's "too risky".
So Horizons is bad because people are irrational with their decisions?
You are taking Plains from your library. You are not losing board position, and you are not losing card advantage. the only tempo loss is from playing the card itself. So the only loss that you could possibly get is the possibility of drawing less lands in the future. The horror! Most decks would sell their first-born to draw less lands in the future.
It's not my friend that says that, it's people on these boards. I ask why they aren't running Horizons, they say it's "too risky"... yet they run Lens.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Play with it. You should like it.
Cast it before you run an armageddon out. See how it goes. If people remove it, they can regret it later when you're hitting them with a Jitte or Loxodon Warhammer, or you're getting endless value out of a Nim Deathmantle. Land Tax, Tithe, and Gift of Estates are good, but, really, you'd play all of those AND Endless Horizons.
Also, as previously mentioned, it finds shocks and duals with plains as their type, and also Mistveil Plains, if you're into that sort of thing (hey, it counts as a white permanent for Mistveil Plains, too). In blue, it can supply cards for your Forbid wall. In black, you can fuel a Demonic Collusion with it.
I'm not usually a guy who says 'staple' a lot, but, I think that for mono-white, Endless Horizons surely is. In blue and/or red, it can definitely get value too.
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You asked what the risks were. Nobody else mentioned tempo loss. Tempo loss is a risk with running Endless Horizons. The value of tempo changes from one metagame to the next, which affects the severity of the risk. The other end of the balance is the utility of the effect, and there are a few options within which do this same thing, but better.
I have made no other argument for or against running the card, and I don't get where people are coming out with "dies to removal" or "card disadvantage". It's not terrible! I don't run it because I usually have better options for the same effect. I'm partial to Armillary Sphere, which works faster, doesn't require me to keep track of it, and puts about the same number of lands into my hand.
I don't get why people like Lens so much. If I see it turn 3, I will spend an un-kicked Dismantling Blow to get rid of it before you untap, and I won't apologize.
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Annul is really good in EDH
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
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