Oracle of Mul Daya and Desert Twister and Ursapine contributed to a fun game that could not have happened without the use of proxies? You had so much fun playing 4 lands instead of 3 with your general out? All those cards are nice and all. I just fail to see how they hinge on the fact that you have fun or not.
Those examples were stated because they aren't cards that are high value. It's not like I was proxying Force of Wills or Vampiric Tutors. My main proxy (and I think the only one i played that game IIRC) that hit the board was Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. It got followed by being copied by Sakashima the Imposter (drew 4 cards) and led to more political fiascoes/alliances/back stabbing. aka fun. My card collection is few and far between because all I play is limited. If I weren't allowed to use proxys and had to use Gatstaf Shepard and Ulvenwald Mystics > them, I'm pretty sure the games wouldn't have been as fun.
As a discussion about proxies... This weekend I was cleaning up my magic cards getting ready to move. I think I threw away like 300 proxy printouts lol. I normally strip them out when I make a swap but sort of just leave them sitting around. I had a big buildup of stuff. I suppose I will just have to go back to printing more as needed. I really didnt want to figure out what I had prints of already and somehow organize them >_<
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
@ISB: If your shop isn't selling singles, then I don't think you're violating anything by proxying. You're doing due diligence by buying sodas and snacks. They can't be upset with you for not supporting on something they don't support you on. Singles is a time-consuming, low-yield endeavor unless you do CRAZY volume, so I can understand a store not doing it.
In full disclosure, I'm at a place in life where I can pretty much afford whatever the hell I want, and I understand that most folks, especially the younger ones, are in a different place--but I actually don't think the "I can't afford it" argument is significant in this debate. There's a socio-political undercurrent to that part, which while a fascinating discussion, isn't a necessary part of the discussion for our purposes. I actually think other factors are more significant.
I disagree that proxies promote health for the format (not that I think they're damaging either). With proxies, you can have 14 decks, all of them chock full of original dual lands, and it feels like that leads to a homogenization instead of diversity.
I understand cost is a factor for many folks who play the game, but the proxy argument can be taken to an illogical end. If proxies are allowed, why ever buy a card/booster pack? I think that part of the experience of the format is finding alternatives to high-cost cards (like playing the affordable Strip Mine instead of the insane Wasteland).
I also think going into a game shop and using proxies is a violation of part of the contract between store owner and client. Running a game store is already a low-return investment. If you want to have a good place to play, you have to support it, and buying packs and singles is part of the arrangement. Players sometimes treat the game shop like's it's a university-funded Student Union, and it's simply not. The players themselves have some responsibility.
On the whole, I'm anti-proxy since there are so many great choices of cards that you don't really NEED that specific card--and if you feel you really need it so badly, then I think you should make the effort to acquire it. Wanting something badly enough means making sacrifices if sacrifices are required.
If I sit down to a casual game and someone says they have a card proxied for a good reason (didn't have the time to pull it out of a deck before they showed up, or the card store guy is currently too busy with other stuff to grab it, for example), I'm okay with it, but I wouldn't want it to be an ongoing thing.
I think the argument that "it's a casual format" actually supports NOT allowing proxies. If it's a casual format, you're not really going to suffer by having to find a replacement. Is Llanowar Wastes so much worse than Bayou that it's going to significantly impact your deck? If the answer is "it's suboptimal," you may have carried yourself outside the casualness (which is fine, but you can't then use it as part of your argument).
I do agree with this almost completely... however, there are some things that there are not budget replacements for. Notably, unique effects from older and harder to find sets, like Imperial Recruiter and Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed.
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I do agree with this almost completely... however, there are some things that there are not budget replacements for. Notably, unique effects from older and harder to find sets, like Imperial Recruiter and Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed.
While they are quite unique in ability and power, I feel that there is no reason that you have to have that card. Yes, it's an autoinclude if you have one, but I think it's just much more reasonable just to play another card over it and not have to deal with any possible stigma of proxies.
Those examples were stated because they aren't cards that are high value. It's not like I was proxying Force of Wills or Vampiric Tutors. My main proxy (and I think the only one i played that game IIRC) that hit the board was Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. It got followed by being copied by Sakashima the Imposter (drew 4 cards) and led to more political fiascoes/alliances/back stabbing. aka fun. My card collection is few and far between because all I play is limited. If I weren't allowed to use proxys and had to use Gatstaf Shepard and Ulvenwald Mystics > them, I'm pretty sure the games wouldn't have been as fun.
That is why I would say build the deck without proxies. I would never get into a game with people I haven't play with before with proxies already in my deck. I would be pretty put off by it if people did. Maybe I am old fashion. I think people should work for the things they want. People today think that if EDH is a casual format proxies are a ok because it doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter then why do you need to play the optimal deck? Again, Those cards that you would have subbed in may not have been interesting. Are you saying the other 97 cards in your deck are on par or worse than those cards named? I would be shocked if you didn't have at least 10 other cards that could be fun and cause the same commotion that you love. Also 15 dollars isn't that hard to save up. Heck most of the time if people want some of the cheap cards that you want and I have extras I will just give them to the person if they are my friend and tell them to just pay it forward. If people are going to nickel and dime you on urzapine then you are playing with the wrong people lol.
While they are quite unique in ability and power, I feel that there is no reason that you have to have that card. Yes, it's an autoinclude if you have one, but I think it's just much more reasonable just to play another card over it and not have to deal with any possible stigma of proxies.
Xiahou Dun is just about the only mono-black card capable of recurring enchantments, instants, sorceries, or planeswalkers. He also enables a number of unique combos. It's not so much a power reason, but he's literally the only card for his niche.
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Xiahou Dun is just about the only mono-black card capable of recurring enchantments, instants, sorceries, or planeswalkers. He also enables a number of unique combos. It's not so much a power reason, but he's literally the only card for his niche.
He isn't prohibitively expensive anymore. Look up how much a judge foil is. $50 is high but it isn't what it used to be. It is closer to a price that is reasonable. Save up for it for a few weeks. I am sure you will get to your goal if you try. If you have the attitude that you shouldn't have to because you can just print it out then that seems like you feel rather entitled. Who gave you the idea that you need to have everything in the world?
Imperial recruiter's ability is just optimization when you get right down to it.
Xiahou Dun is just about the only mono-black card capable of recurring enchantments, instants, sorceries, or planeswalkers. He also enables a number of unique combos. It's not so much a power reason, but he's literally the only card for his niche.
Yes, I completely understand that and there will never be a card that function as him, but my point was merely echoing what Sheldon said: find a different card. You don't need him in your deck, he doesn't directly win you the game although he can become a nice engine, so you can find another card.
Personally, the way I look at investing in cards when building decks is its price versus board effect: if it passes some arbitrary threshold, then you should work toward getting one. If it's not past that threshold, why not try a more budget card? For example, I've been working on Edric, which at its core is a relatively budget deck. You can optimize it through things like: dual lands, shocklands, Force of Will, Temporal Manipulation, Capture of Jingzhou, and Gaea's Cradle. The only one of these that passes the mark for me is Cradle, so I've been working on trying to get one and I won't really bother with the others, because Cradle will win you the game so much more than any of those other cards. My main message is that you can make a deck competitive and fun without having to use ultra-optimized pricy cards. As for cheap proxies, I'm sure people will eventually get them once they have got their order together, so it's fine.
Xiahou Dun is just about the only mono-black card capable of recurring enchantments, instants, sorceries, or planeswalkers. He also enables a number of unique combos. It's not so much a power reason, but he's literally the only card for his niche.
And that's part of the mystique, isn't it? Putting in some time and effort to acquire old gems like Xiahou Dun, Imperial Recruiter, Wasteland, Moat, etc. so you can trash your friends with secret weapons (and show off a bit) has always been part of the game. Hell, even acquiring certainnewercards is rewarding.
My feelings on the subject are proxy whatever you want, it doesn't bother me in the slightest because my cards will still be worth money regardless. I want to test my decks against the best decks possible, and not win games because i have a deeper cardpool than you. Some people may feel threatened by this but the poll in the old thread proved that the majority of this community doesn't have a problem with players using proxys.
He isn't prohibitively expensive anymore. Look up how much a judge foil is. $50 is high but it isn't what it used to be. It is closer to a price that is reasonable. Save up for it for a few weeks. I am sure you will get to your goal if you try. If you have the attitude that you shouldn't have to because you can just print it out then that seems like you feel rather entitled. Who gave you the idea that you need to have everything in the world?
Imperial recruiter's ability is just optimization when you get right down to it.
What makes you think I DON'T have the card? I was merely playing devil's advocate.
Yes, I completely understand that and there will never be a card that function as him, but my point was merely echoing what Sheldon said: find a different card. You don't need him in your deck, he doesn't directly win you the game although he can become a nice engine, so you can find another card.
Personally, the way I look at investing in cards when building decks is its price versus board effect: if it passes some arbitrary threshold, then you should work toward getting one. If it's not past that threshold, why not try a more budget card? For example, I've been working on Edric, which at its core is a relatively budget deck. You can optimize it through things like: dual lands, shocklands, Force of Will, Temporal Manipulation, Capture of Jingzhou, and Gaea's Cradle. The only one of these that passes the mark for me is Cradle, so I've been working on trying to get one and I won't really bother with the others, because Cradle will win you the game so much more than any of those other cards. My main message is that you can make a deck competitive and fun without having to use ultra-optimized pricy cards. As for cheap proxies, I'm sure people will eventually get them once they have got their order together, so it's fine.
I can say, having been on both ends of owning a Xiahou Dun, that there is absolutely no replacement for him.
And that's part of the mystique, isn't it? Putting in some time and effort to acquire old gems like Xiahou Dun, Imperial Recruiter, Wasteland, Moat, etc. so you can trash your friends with secret weapons (and show off a bit) has always been part of the game. Hell, even acquiring certainnewercards is rewarding.
Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that I can understand how someone might want to proxy an expensive card, because it has a unique effect that no other card can replicate.
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I can say, having been on both ends of owning a Xiahou Dun, that there is absolutely no replacement for him.
Please let me reiterate more clearly: I never said to functionally replace him, I know there is absolutely no replacement for his effect in monoblack. What I'm saying is to simply not play the card and play a different card instead. If a person thinks that his effect is so great that it is absolutely essential for a deck, then they should work towards getting that card.
Imo proxies are okay for generals. Technically the big commander cards are proxies. As long as you have a card to represent the general it is fine by me.
Also, certain cards our group allows proxies of. Namely staples such as Sol Ring IF YOU OWN A COPY OF THE CARD YOU ARE PROXYING. Alternate arts are encouraged, the only other rule of proxies is that they must look nice.
Please let me reiterate more clearly: I never said to functionally replace him, I know there is absolutely no replacement for his effect in monoblack. What I'm saying is to simply not play the card and play a different card instead. If a person thinks that his effect is so great that it is absolutely essential for a deck, then they should work towards getting that card.
I guess in particular was a bigger deal a few months ago, before the judge promo release, when he was ~$200, and basically no one had it for trade, so that $200 had to be cash money through ebay or SCG.
That is fine. What makes you think that anyone deserves everything in the world? Same question bro. It is less personal now.
I understand that some people have a more constrained budget than others. When I picked up Xiahou Dun, I came up with all kinds of neat interactions with him, but I'm sure there's some I missed. A new mind taking a new take on him could improve the use of the card on the whole, which could then improve my ability to use my own copy. Thus, allowing someone who's creative but budget-limited to proxy a Xiahou Dun could be beneficial even to those who own one already.
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I guess in particular was a bigger deal a few months ago, before the judge promo release, when he was ~$200, and basically no one had it for trade, so that $200 had to be cash money through ebay or SCG.
I understand that some people have a more constrained budget than others. When I picked up Xiahou Dun, I came up with all kinds of neat interactions with him, but I'm sure there's some I missed. A new mind taking a new take on him could improve the use of the card on the whole, which could then improve my ability to use my own copy. Thus, allowing someone who's creative but budget-limited to proxy a Xiahou Dun could be beneficial even to those who own one already.
And then you go back to the optimization argument. Though I don't think your argument is a very strong one for it. In magic, I can pretty certainly say that if you have thought of it someone has done it before you. Commander has blown up in popularity. People also, even though I don't agree with them, have tournaments for it. I am thinking that people who enter tournaments will test at least a little even for an EDH one. Some new broken combo is not going to come out of using proxies. Also, in Xiahou Dun's case, if it is black it combos if you want to get real basic with it. Also you put forth the money. You should want to find out all the combos with the card. Why aren't you doing a gatherer search right now? That is the best way to do it.
Another argument to counter yours is that if someone is going to proxy that card what is to say that you are going to get an original idea out of him/her. That person already is using a proxy. What are the chances he is using only one? I rarely see only one proxy when someone says they are using proxies. So you would be just as capable of finding out combos with the guy buy using a card database site (Gatherer or mtginfo).
That is why I would say build the deck without proxies. I would never get into a game with people I haven't play with before with proxies already in my deck. I would be pretty put off by it if people did. Maybe I am old fashion. I think people should work for the things they want. People today think that if EDH is a casual format proxies are a ok because it doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter then why do you need to play the optimal deck? Again, Those cards that you would have subbed in may not have been interesting. Are you saying the other 97 cards in your deck are on par or worse than those cards named? I would be shocked if you didn't have at least 10 other cards that could be fun and cause the same commotion that you love. Also 15 dollars isn't that hard to save up. Heck most of the time if people want some of the cheap cards that you want and I have extras I will just give them to the person if they are my friend and tell them to just pay it forward. If people are going to nickel and dime you on urzapine then you are playing with the wrong people lol.
No, I stated the proxys I used in comparison to the other cards that are $$$.
And to THE POINT of my argument, is it my fault that those cards that I ordered and proxyed are in the mail? You're going to refuse to play me because I have cards that are going to come 2-3 days later?
For a casual format, I honestly don't see the problem with proxies...assuming they don't become marked cards in some way/shape/form. Occasionally I'll pickup a few singles ($1-2 each unless I have some burning passion to spend more). If you're really into theme-ing your deck, you could intentionally proxy cards to build visual synergies/themes (superheroes, anime, movies, shows, inside jokes, better artwork, etc).
I don't see the argument of "omg you must have this card" for casual, which is all EDH is. I play legacy and have expensive cards because it's a sanctioned format. Why would I go out of my way to blow cash on a "for fun" deck? Especially with the popularity of the format, I could easily spend a few hundred dollars for otherwise jank cards.
I have bigger issues with elitist players and degenerative combos. I'm yet to run into somebody who tells me "pshhh proxies? really?" to my face. The format is meant to be fun.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I feel proxies are fine for commander. Games are more fun when people can try out new things, and in practice, I have yet to encounter anyone who proxies a significant amont of cards in any single deck.
You can certainly refuse to play someone for using them, by why be such a hardliner? Why would you try to prevent someone from doing something with arbitrary rulings when you can "encourage" them to use real cards with good old-fashioned mocking and derision?
Also, on the Xiahou Dun sidebar: Replacement is a silly word in magic, when literally each card is unique due to the near infitinite interactions between cards. But... Shrouded Lore is better than Xiahou Dun because it can get back artifacts and lands. Make some friends at the table, you'll see...
For a casual format, I honestly don't see the problem with proxies...assuming they don't become marked cards in some way/shape/form. Occasionally I'll pickup a few singles ($1-2 each unless I have some burning passion to spend more). If you're really into theme-ing your deck, you could intentionally proxy cards to build visual synergies/themes (superheroes, anime, movies, shows, inside jokes, better artwork, etc).
I don't see the argument of "omg you must have this card" for casual, which is all EDH is. I play legacy and have expensive cards because it's a sanctioned format. Why would I go out of my way to blow cash on a "for fun" deck? Especially with the popularity of the format, I could easily spend a few hundred dollars for otherwise jank cards.
I have bigger issues with elitist players and degenerative combos. I'm yet to run into somebody who tells me "pshhh proxies? really?" to my face. The format is meant to be fun.
I refer you to this quote
Quote from Sheldon »
I think the argument that "it's a casual format" actually supports NOT allowing proxies. If it's a casual format, you're not really going to suffer by having to find a replacement. Is Llanowar Wastes so much worse than Bayou that it's going to significantly impact your deck? If the answer is "it's suboptimal," you may have carried yourself outside the casualness (which is fine, but you can't then use it as part of your argument).
Also I would also like to say that I have never seen someone proxy to make a janky superhero deck. I only see it done for optimization. Even if it was done for the janky superhero theme, if it is done with proxies I would actually be less excited about that deck.
There are two people in one of my playgroups who proxy heavily - one of them myself.
However, neither of my two playgroups really minds, mainly because they know my style of game - fun coming first - and how I never proxy anything that I don't intend to obtain at one point, going by my own budget, and stuff that's just way too expensive. If I know I'm not going to drop 10$ for an Academy Rector, I won't proxy it. But if I see it in a trade binder when someone wants some of what I got, it's goin' down.
That said, the decks me and that other friend proxy aren't super-douchy, or broken, or anything. Non-combo Phage, mono-red Tokens with Homura, semi-Demon-Tribal with Rakdos ... where proxies are things like Kher Keep, Pillage, Void. Random stuff.
To be quite honest, I've yet to get a game refused because of my proxies. People poke fun and laugh at some of the things, but i'd laugh at Fling in Commander the first time I'd see it in a non-Kresh build too.
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I see the point they're trying to make but at the same time sometimes you just can't find the card. I've been proxying stuff like Nature's Lore because it hasn't been available for quite some time.
The dual-land argument I understand. I'm lucky enough to own several. But something like Imperial or Moat I can't fathom spending that much money on. I respect the "work around cards you have" argument but again, in a casual format, I can't see why that is an issue.
Also I would also like to say that I have never seen someone proxy to make a janky superhero deck. I only see it done for optimization. Even if it was done for the janky superhero theme, if it is done with proxies I would actually be less excited about that deck.
I've seen entire decks altered. Same concept for a fraction of the cost + not being married to the altered design.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Im really not a fan of basing any argument for or against proxies around this being a casual format because the argument can be easily made to justify both sides and kinda hinges around how one defines casual.
One thing I do want to address is the argument that it homogenizes games because you can use the same card in many decks. The card that get proxied the most are the original dual lands which are completely unexciting land drops that are just really efficient at what they do and they are like that whether you play the same one in one deck or many decks proxying something like wheel of fortune for every deck would be dull to see proxied for every red deck but it isnt proxied nearly as often as the duals.
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From MaRo
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
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Those examples were stated because they aren't cards that are high value. It's not like I was proxying Force of Wills or Vampiric Tutors. My main proxy (and I think the only one i played that game IIRC) that hit the board was Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. It got followed by being copied by Sakashima the Imposter (drew 4 cards) and led to more political fiascoes/alliances/back stabbing. aka fun. My card collection is few and far between because all I play is limited. If I weren't allowed to use proxys and had to use Gatstaf Shepard and Ulvenwald Mystics > them, I'm pretty sure the games wouldn't have been as fun.
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I do agree with this almost completely... however, there are some things that there are not budget replacements for. Notably, unique effects from older and harder to find sets, like Imperial Recruiter and Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed.
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While they are quite unique in ability and power, I feel that there is no reason that you have to have that card. Yes, it's an autoinclude if you have one, but I think it's just much more reasonable just to play another card over it and not have to deal with any possible stigma of proxies.
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That is why I would say build the deck without proxies. I would never get into a game with people I haven't play with before with proxies already in my deck. I would be pretty put off by it if people did. Maybe I am old fashion. I think people should work for the things they want. People today think that if EDH is a casual format proxies are a ok because it doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter then why do you need to play the optimal deck? Again, Those cards that you would have subbed in may not have been interesting. Are you saying the other 97 cards in your deck are on par or worse than those cards named? I would be shocked if you didn't have at least 10 other cards that could be fun and cause the same commotion that you love. Also 15 dollars isn't that hard to save up. Heck most of the time if people want some of the cheap cards that you want and I have extras I will just give them to the person if they are my friend and tell them to just pay it forward. If people are going to nickel and dime you on urzapine then you are playing with the wrong people lol.
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Xiahou Dun is just about the only mono-black card capable of recurring enchantments, instants, sorceries, or planeswalkers. He also enables a number of unique combos. It's not so much a power reason, but he's literally the only card for his niche.
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He isn't prohibitively expensive anymore. Look up how much a judge foil is. $50 is high but it isn't what it used to be. It is closer to a price that is reasonable. Save up for it for a few weeks. I am sure you will get to your goal if you try. If you have the attitude that you shouldn't have to because you can just print it out then that seems like you feel rather entitled. Who gave you the idea that you need to have everything in the world?
Imperial recruiter's ability is just optimization when you get right down to it.
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Yes, I completely understand that and there will never be a card that function as him, but my point was merely echoing what Sheldon said: find a different card. You don't need him in your deck, he doesn't directly win you the game although he can become a nice engine, so you can find another card.
Personally, the way I look at investing in cards when building decks is its price versus board effect: if it passes some arbitrary threshold, then you should work toward getting one. If it's not past that threshold, why not try a more budget card? For example, I've been working on Edric, which at its core is a relatively budget deck. You can optimize it through things like: dual lands, shocklands, Force of Will, Temporal Manipulation, Capture of Jingzhou, and Gaea's Cradle. The only one of these that passes the mark for me is Cradle, so I've been working on trying to get one and I won't really bother with the others, because Cradle will win you the game so much more than any of those other cards. My main message is that you can make a deck competitive and fun without having to use ultra-optimized pricy cards. As for cheap proxies, I'm sure people will eventually get them once they have got their order together, so it's fine.
RGodo, Bandit WarlordR
GSeton, Krosan ProtectorG
BGJarad, Golgari Lich LordGB
And that's part of the mystique, isn't it? Putting in some time and effort to acquire old gems like Xiahou Dun, Imperial Recruiter, Wasteland, Moat, etc. so you can trash your friends with secret weapons (and show off a bit) has always been part of the game. Hell, even acquiring certain newer cards is rewarding.
What makes you think I DON'T have the card? I was merely playing devil's advocate.
Also, have they really dropped to $50? Yeesh.
I can say, having been on both ends of owning a Xiahou Dun, that there is absolutely no replacement for him.
Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that I can understand how someone might want to proxy an expensive card, because it has a unique effect that no other card can replicate.
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Please let me reiterate more clearly: I never said to functionally replace him, I know there is absolutely no replacement for his effect in monoblack. What I'm saying is to simply not play the card and play a different card instead. If a person thinks that his effect is so great that it is absolutely essential for a deck, then they should work towards getting that card.
RGodo, Bandit WarlordR
GSeton, Krosan ProtectorG
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Also, certain cards our group allows proxies of. Namely staples such as Sol Ring IF YOU OWN A COPY OF THE CARD YOU ARE PROXYING. Alternate arts are encouraged, the only other rule of proxies is that they must look nice.
On Modern Masters 2:
Will be kept until 12/31/2013 to prove if Right or Wrong.Proven right 1/27/2013That is fine. What makes you think that anyone deserves everything in the world? Same question bro. It is less personal now.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
What does this question even mean, bro?
I guess in particular was a bigger deal a few months ago, before the judge promo release, when he was ~$200, and basically no one had it for trade, so that $200 had to be cash money through ebay or SCG.
I understand that some people have a more constrained budget than others. When I picked up Xiahou Dun, I came up with all kinds of neat interactions with him, but I'm sure there's some I missed. A new mind taking a new take on him could improve the use of the card on the whole, which could then improve my ability to use my own copy. Thus, allowing someone who's creative but budget-limited to proxy a Xiahou Dun could be beneficial even to those who own one already.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
And then you go back to the optimization argument. Though I don't think your argument is a very strong one for it. In magic, I can pretty certainly say that if you have thought of it someone has done it before you. Commander has blown up in popularity. People also, even though I don't agree with them, have tournaments for it. I am thinking that people who enter tournaments will test at least a little even for an EDH one. Some new broken combo is not going to come out of using proxies. Also, in Xiahou Dun's case, if it is black it combos if you want to get real basic with it. Also you put forth the money. You should want to find out all the combos with the card. Why aren't you doing a gatherer search right now? That is the best way to do it.
Another argument to counter yours is that if someone is going to proxy that card what is to say that you are going to get an original idea out of him/her. That person already is using a proxy. What are the chances he is using only one? I rarely see only one proxy when someone says they are using proxies. So you would be just as capable of finding out combos with the guy buy using a card database site (Gatherer or mtginfo).
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
No, I stated the proxys I used in comparison to the other cards that are $$$.
And to THE POINT of my argument, is it my fault that those cards that I ordered and proxyed are in the mail? You're going to refuse to play me because I have cards that are going to come 2-3 days later?
I don't see the argument of "omg you must have this card" for casual, which is all EDH is. I play legacy and have expensive cards because it's a sanctioned format. Why would I go out of my way to blow cash on a "for fun" deck? Especially with the popularity of the format, I could easily spend a few hundred dollars for otherwise jank cards.
I have bigger issues with elitist players and degenerative combos. I'm yet to run into somebody who tells me "pshhh proxies? really?" to my face. The format is meant to be fun.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
You can certainly refuse to play someone for using them, by why be such a hardliner? Why would you try to prevent someone from doing something with arbitrary rulings when you can "encourage" them to use real cards with good old-fashioned mocking and derision?
Also, on the Xiahou Dun sidebar: Replacement is a silly word in magic, when literally each card is unique due to the near infitinite interactions between cards. But... Shrouded Lore is better than Xiahou Dun because it can get back artifacts and lands. Make some friends at the table, you'll see...
Kuro, Pitlord - Life Gain/Drain MBC
Malfegor - Discard and Punishment
Ghave, Guru of Spores - Fungus Tribal
building Dralnu, Lichlord - Arcane Draw-Go
I refer you to this quote
Also I would also like to say that I have never seen someone proxy to make a janky superhero deck. I only see it done for optimization. Even if it was done for the janky superhero theme, if it is done with proxies I would actually be less excited about that deck.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
However, neither of my two playgroups really minds, mainly because they know my style of game - fun coming first - and how I never proxy anything that I don't intend to obtain at one point, going by my own budget, and stuff that's just way too expensive. If I know I'm not going to drop 10$ for an Academy Rector, I won't proxy it. But if I see it in a trade binder when someone wants some of what I got, it's goin' down.
That said, the decks me and that other friend proxy aren't super-douchy, or broken, or anything. Non-combo Phage, mono-red Tokens with Homura, semi-Demon-Tribal with Rakdos ... where proxies are things like Kher Keep, Pillage, Void. Random stuff.
To be quite honest, I've yet to get a game refused because of my proxies. People poke fun and laugh at some of the things, but i'd laugh at Fling in Commander the first time I'd see it in a non-Kresh build too.
xMage: Jankmaster
Commander - Now Playing
WUBSen Triplets - "If you shake my hand, better count your fingersBUW RHomura, Human AscendantR RGBorborygmos EnragedGR URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
Commander - Still Brewing
BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRB URSaheeli, the GiftedRU WRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW
I see the point they're trying to make but at the same time sometimes you just can't find the card. I've been proxying stuff like Nature's Lore because it hasn't been available for quite some time.
The dual-land argument I understand. I'm lucky enough to own several. But something like Imperial or Moat I can't fathom spending that much money on. I respect the "work around cards you have" argument but again, in a casual format, I can't see why that is an issue.
I've seen entire decks altered. Same concept for a fraction of the cost + not being married to the altered design.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
One thing I do want to address is the argument that it homogenizes games because you can use the same card in many decks. The card that get proxied the most are the original dual lands which are completely unexciting land drops that are just really efficient at what they do and they are like that whether you play the same one in one deck or many decks proxying something like wheel of fortune for every deck would be dull to see proxied for every red deck but it isnt proxied nearly as often as the duals.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me