So I have been working on this crazy awesome Gisela, Blade of Goldnight deck that excels at doubling damage, etc. It also makes for super fun games.
I love Warstorm Surge, but also have the counterpart Vicious Shadows in the deck. Now Vicious Shadows is listed in the top 50 list for red, but is it really worth the 7 mana in most decks? I mean is it only that good when paired with cards like Sneak Attack or when playing against a blue player with tons of cards in hand?? Or is it worth the mana in Gisela even if I never get her on the battlefield?
Also, what do people think about Pandemonium? I fear cards that have a double edge to them (yes I want to have fun, but I also don't mind having a chance to win without my win-cons beating me ;)), even though I was recently convinced Furnace of Rath was worth it if played intelligently. Alternatively, what about Electropotence? It costs each time you use it, but doesn't backfire. Which is better? Are either better than running Vicious Shadows? What about Spellshock - would you run it over either of these or Vicious Shadows??
Furthermore, what do people think about running cards like Archwing Dragon for repeated triggers?
Lastly, anyone see any good cards to compliment (and add redundancy) to Repercussion??
Anyone know of any cards that are special gems to decks like these? (I didn't list everything I use, but feel free to mention ideas even if they overlap with what I already have!)
in my experience Shadows can be a bit lackluster if your deck isn't dedicated to putting creatures out and sending them to the graveyard as its primary function. It absolutely rocks in the token deck I'm playing now, but ive used it before in other types of decks and I thought it would still give me a ton of value just based on other player's critters hitting the yard in a multiplayer game. Not so much, it was hit or miss, and control decks are good at avoiding the trigger for the most part.
spellshock seems much different and seems like it would be a good fit for other types of decks. the only consideration is that it might not do a whole lot before it gets removed, as it is at its core a supremely annoying card.
I have a predicament deciding on which ones to include in a thromok the insatiable deck, along with fling and soul's fire possibilities. He can get gigantic, but also focuses on many tokens.
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EDH Decks:
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
I love all of these cards, though Pandemonium and to a lesser extent Furnace of Rath can reallly backfire if you aren't prepared to drop the enchantment and take immediate advantage of either. Both can be fun in a more politically-oriented deck though.
Depending on your build, you will love or hate Vicious Shadows. My meta usually has full grips, so the Shadows in a token deck hits so hard I'm temped to take it out to give everyone else a sporting chance.
Curse of Bloodletting is a great political tool that can easily be used to turn the whole table against someone.
I've been testing out these type of enchantments in my Zirilian deck since it poops out dragons easily. The one card you've listed that's been lackluster has been Electropotence. Kicker three is just too much for the effect in my opinion. I've been having a lot of success with Warstorm Surge, Curse of Bloodletting, Repercussion, Vicious Shadows and Rage Reflection as ways to double up my guys
I once had my Vicious Shadows in my Ashling deck deal 35 damage because someone played Thromok. It's an amazing card because it doesn't matter what creature dies because someone is getting hurt as long as they have a card in their hand. It makes Token Deck cringe and is a hard counter to Kiki-Jiki Pestermite in the right hands. "I'll make a million Tokens. I'll cycle Slice and Dice. How many cards are in your hands, guys?"
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you all... been pretty crazy IRL...
Anyway, thanks so much for all the feedback, this really helps out a lot. Also, I checked out Gaka's build and it is funny in some similarities... except I do it with big beasties for fast powerful aggro and he seems to do more of a slow grind it out annoying aggro/stax.... looks like fun to play, lol.
I just wish I could find more cards like Repercussion. That card is boss with Gisela and another damage cards.
Pandemonium is actually better than Warstorm Surge and the other one sided etb damage triggers. The three other players will generally use the triggers to target each other, and kill other creatures. It rarely ever backfires, and if it does meh so what? It's EDH, the game is supposed to be wacky. I use it to great effect with Lord of Tresserhorn which also combos with Tainted Strike for a insta-kill.
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I personally don't like cards that can be used against me like Pandemonium and Furnace. Warstorm Surge is my absolute favorite out of those since I have a creature heavy deck and lets each creature I have be used as removal/burn. Although I am not currently running Vicious Shadows, it was a great sweeper deterrent before. The CMC is really the only thing stopping me from playing it since my curve is already pretty high.
Pandemonium is actually better than Warstorm Surge and the other one sided etb damage triggers. The three other players will generally use the triggers to target each other, and kill other creatures. It rarely ever backfires, and if it does meh so what? It's EDH, the game is supposed to be wacky. I use it to great effect with Lord of Tresserhorn which also combos with Tainted Strike for a insta-kill.
Agreed Pandemonium is easy the best one. Followed by Shadows then Surge. Electropotence is awful and should probably be avoided.
Warstorm Surge seems to be the easiest one to just say "include" to. Electropotence is really only usable with a commander like Thromok, IMO. It wouldn't be terrible with Gisela, but still, that's waiting for the 3 extra mana to cast her in a R/W deck... probably a no-go. Provided you're running plenty of creatures (and I assume you are, considering you're asking about these cards) I think Pandemonium would be great. Sometimes, if you're ahead, you won't want to play it because people will archenemy you off the table with it. But other times they'll use it to team up on the other guy who's doing better, or keep the board clear, or whatever. You also make it asymmetrical by playing Gisela, which is a big deal. Definitely test it.
Electropotence is just a bad Warstorm Surge. I could see it having a place in some decks but none that I'd want to play.
Pandemonium is not good, unless you like chaos magic. I'll pay 2 not to give everyone else a Warstorm Surge, thank you very much. The card requires you to successfully predict how the triggers will be used, and then run a calculation to make sure it's favorable to you. In my Maelstrom Wanderer deck, I am relatively certain that everyone would just use their triggers on my face. No, thanks. I'd rather just pay 2, seriously
Vicious Shadows is a strong card. If your deck can generate a lot of death triggers or wants protection from board wipes, it's powerful. A Kiki-jiki with Fleshbag Marauder and Dictate of Erebos is already scary; now imagine if Vicious Shadows is on the board. This card will draw lots of unwanted attention, though.
I think Spellshock is too lackluster for how much it will annoy people if you play it. Not a worthwhile card IMO
For the symmetrical cards: By including it, you're already planning your deck around using that card to some extent, and so your opponents by virtue of not bringing a copy of your deck probably won't be as ready to take advantage of it as you are. I can certainly understand not wanting something to backfire on you though, lol.
I've seen Vicious Shadows in sac and token themed RGx decks and it's been, well, vicious. Enough so I've added Witchbane Orb to one of my decks with that as one of the goals (along with shutting off "exile target player's graveyard" type effects.)
For the symmetrical cards: By including it, you're already planning your deck around using that card to some extent, and so your opponents by virtue of not bringing a copy of your deck probably won't be as ready to take advantage of it as you are. I can certainly understand not wanting something to backfire on you though, lol.
Well, unless your opponents aren't planning to resolve creature spells, I would say that they are at least somewhat ready to take advantage of it (and by "it" I mean Pandemonium)
For the symmetrical cards: By including it, you're already planning your deck around using that card to some extent, and so your opponents by virtue of not bringing a copy of your deck probably won't be as ready to take advantage of it as you are. I can certainly understand not wanting something to backfire on you though, lol.
Well, unless your opponents aren't planning to resolve creature spells, I would say that they are at least somewhat ready to take advantage of it (and by "it" I mean Pandemonium)
Well yes, but Gaka's silly Norin deck is much more ready to take advantage of it. Norin constantly blinks in and out. Token decks would probably want instant speed spawners and some over time spawners to take advantage, etc. We could argue semantics or whatever until the cows come home, but that's more of what I was implying.
For the symmetrical cards: By including it, you're already planning your deck around using that card to some extent, and so your opponents by virtue of not bringing a copy of your deck probably won't be as ready to take advantage of it as you are. I can certainly understand not wanting something to backfire on you though, lol.
Well, unless your opponents aren't planning to resolve creature spells, I would say that they are at least somewhat ready to take advantage of it (and by "it" I mean Pandemonium)
Well yes, but Gaka's silly Norin deck is much more ready to take advantage of it. Norin constantly blinks in and out. Token decks would probably want instant speed spawners and some over time spawners to take advantage, etc. We could argue semantics or whatever until the cows come home, but that's more of what I was implying.
I didn't realize you were implying something about one specific deck list, tbh
Pandemonium will be far and away the best card in a Gruul deck I'm building. Not only will people be playing fewer creatures on average, the ones they will be playing will be far less likely to kill my dudes than the other way around. The minor downside is well worth the 2 less to cast versus Warstorm Surge.
Well hello, someone's been mentioning a lot of my favourite cards.
I think I have either or both of Pandemonium/Warstorm Surge in four or so decks... at least Thromok, Intet, Norin and Marath.
Thromok is pretty much the perfect home for the above and Vicious Shadows... and even Electropotence. Oh yeah, and Stalking Vengeance can get kinda crazy.
I agree that Pandemonium is the best of the bunch because of the political aspect... and if a game is stalling it's almost a surefire way to make the game to end sooner rather than later. Dunno about the lot of you, but sometimes you just want to draw that card that will end the game while not giving a damn if you win or not xP
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OK maybe it's not the same thing, but it's pretty close IMO. I would think that by definition, your Pandemonium deck could never be too optimized or efficient at using it, because if it was, everyone would just use their triggers on your face.
I love Warstorm Surge, but also have the counterpart Vicious Shadows in the deck. Now Vicious Shadows is listed in the top 50 list for red, but is it really worth the 7 mana in most decks? I mean is it only that good when paired with cards like Sneak Attack or when playing against a blue player with tons of cards in hand?? Or is it worth the mana in Gisela even if I never get her on the battlefield?
Also, what do people think about Pandemonium? I fear cards that have a double edge to them (yes I want to have fun, but I also don't mind having a chance to win without my win-cons beating me ;)), even though I was recently convinced Furnace of Rath was worth it if played intelligently. Alternatively, what about Electropotence? It costs each time you use it, but doesn't backfire. Which is better? Are either better than running Vicious Shadows? What about Spellshock - would you run it over either of these or Vicious Shadows??
Furthermore, what do people think about running cards like Archwing Dragon for repeated triggers?
Lastly, anyone see any good cards to compliment (and add redundancy) to Repercussion??
Anyone know of any cards that are special gems to decks like these? (I didn't list everything I use, but feel free to mention ideas even if they overlap with what I already have!)
Thanks so much!
spellshock seems much different and seems like it would be a good fit for other types of decks. the only consideration is that it might not do a whole lot before it gets removed, as it is at its core a supremely annoying card.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
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I have a predicament deciding on which ones to include in a thromok the insatiable deck, along with fling and soul's fire possibilities. He can get gigantic, but also focuses on many tokens.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Honestly when I saw the title of your post I thought it was a Norin thread.
Hope it helps.
I'm "meh" on Electropotence, the cost isn't much, but it can really slow you down over time. Warstorm Surge has served me much much better. Stalking Vengeance is solid as well.
Depending on your build, you will love or hate Vicious Shadows. My meta usually has full grips, so the Shadows in a token deck hits so hard I'm temped to take it out to give everyone else a sporting chance.
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I've been testing out these type of enchantments in my Zirilian deck since it poops out dragons easily. The one card you've listed that's been lackluster has been Electropotence. Kicker three is just too much for the effect in my opinion. I've been having a lot of success with Warstorm Surge, Curse of Bloodletting, Repercussion, Vicious Shadows and Rage Reflection as ways to double up my guys
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
Anyway, thanks so much for all the feedback, this really helps out a lot. Also, I checked out Gaka's build and it is funny in some similarities... except I do it with big beasties for fast powerful aggro and he seems to do more of a slow grind it out annoying aggro/stax.... looks like fun to play, lol.
I just wish I could find more cards like Repercussion. That card is boss with Gisela and another damage cards.
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If you're running lots of cards like Earthquake, you can get a lot of value from Coalhauler Swine and Mogg Maniac.
Caltrops is pretty funny with Repercussion.
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Agreed Pandemonium is easy the best one. Followed by Shadows then Surge. Electropotence is awful and should probably be avoided.
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Some other good ones are Boros Reckoner, Spitemare, Blasphemous Act, and now Dictate of the Twin Gods.
Electropotence is just a bad Warstorm Surge. I could see it having a place in some decks but none that I'd want to play.
Pandemonium is not good, unless you like chaos magic. I'll pay 2 not to give everyone else a Warstorm Surge, thank you very much. The card requires you to successfully predict how the triggers will be used, and then run a calculation to make sure it's favorable to you. In my Maelstrom Wanderer deck, I am relatively certain that everyone would just use their triggers on my face. No, thanks. I'd rather just pay 2, seriously
Vicious Shadows is a strong card. If your deck can generate a lot of death triggers or wants protection from board wipes, it's powerful. A Kiki-jiki with Fleshbag Marauder and Dictate of Erebos is already scary; now imagine if Vicious Shadows is on the board. This card will draw lots of unwanted attention, though.
I think Spellshock is too lackluster for how much it will annoy people if you play it. Not a worthwhile card IMO
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Well, unless your opponents aren't planning to resolve creature spells, I would say that they are at least somewhat ready to take advantage of it (and by "it" I mean Pandemonium)
Well yes, but Gaka's silly Norin deck is much more ready to take advantage of it. Norin constantly blinks in and out. Token decks would probably want instant speed spawners and some over time spawners to take advantage, etc. We could argue semantics or whatever until the cows come home, but that's more of what I was implying.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
I didn't realize you were implying something about one specific deck list, tbh
Any love for Guild Feud? Really, really fun card.
Gruul Warbeast is actually a similar card mechanically for GR decks.
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I think I have either or both of Pandemonium/Warstorm Surge in four or so decks... at least Thromok, Intet, Norin and Marath.
Thromok is pretty much the perfect home for the above and Vicious Shadows... and even Electropotence. Oh yeah, and Stalking Vengeance can get kinda crazy.
I agree that Pandemonium is the best of the bunch because of the political aspect... and if a game is stalling it's almost a surefire way to make the game to end sooner rather than later. Dunno about the lot of you, but sometimes you just want to draw that card that will end the game while not giving a damn if you win or not xP
OK maybe it's not the same thing, but it's pretty close IMO. I would think that by definition, your Pandemonium deck could never be too optimized or efficient at using it, because if it was, everyone would just use their triggers on your face.