I don't get it, it basically looks like a different variant to Kiki Jiki with obvious differences. Why Norin as the general? Cause he comes out turn 1? How does this deck win? By overrunning with tokens? I seem that with Kiki builds and it always seems Elesh Norn comes in and shuts the party down.
I don't get it, it basically looks like a different variant to Kiki Jiki with obvious differences. Why Norin as the general? Cause he comes out turn 1? How does this deck win? By overrunning with tokens? I seem that with Kiki builds and it always seems Elesh Norn comes in and shuts the party down.
I'm going to edit this in a second to be more clear.
Basically because he looks so useless at first glance.
This, too. It's such an underrated quality of the deck.
I sit down at a new table, people look at my general and go, "Well, he's playing just for the 'spirit of EDH,'" not realizing that my deck actually stands a good chance at sweeping the table because they're going to let me get my engines online.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
This, too. It's such an underrated quality of the deck.
I sit down at a new table, people look at my general and go, "Well, he's playing just for the 'spirit of EDH,'" not realizing that my deck actually stands a good chance at sweeping the table because they're going to let me get my engines online.
People always think that too, they're going all "Well, that General looks useless!"
And then I start with a turn 1 Norin, Mana Crypt and Genesis Chamber.
Or Pandemonium.
Or Confusion in the Ranks.
Or Planar Chaos.
Or any of the other 60 cards in the deck.
Quickly followed by raging, yelling and panicking players.
But to explain it to the OP:
Norin has won the same percentage of games for me as Azami or Mimeoplasm, but I had twice the amount of fun while doing it.
On the flip side, if you dont see much green style removal he can do quite well.
What's green removal please?
To the OP:
The deck generally wins via scoop. I believe I've won exactly 3 games ever with the deck by actually reducing my opponents to 0 life. I've won close to 100 games with my opponents scooping.
I assume green removal means enchantment and artifact destruction. Recurring acidic slimes or tranquility effects. With the decks reliance on a few engines (or at least centralized around them, because norin is at the helm), like chamber and confusion, it's fairly vulnerable to them getting removed.
I think people play norin primarily for the 'what' factor. People look at him before a game and get confused or laugh. People see Kiki and go 'oh'. Nothing against kiki, I had a kiki deck and may remake it soon because it is fun.
Norin is fun because, by virtue of having a general that doesn't force specific plays, every game builds differently. Sure, the board state might often times look the same as it does in other games, but the development to getting there is different.
Let's look at Kiki-Jiki, since you brought it up. With this guy at the helm, you know what you're doing. You want to play value creatures so that on turn 5 you can drop Kiki and start stacking advantages. Norin's turn 5 is up in the air. Norin doesn't care when you play him. You can play him when you're losing, when you're winning, or if you have nothing else to do. By this virtue, the rest of the deck needs to be built around synergies more so than many other decks, as you can't rely on the general to give you an instant boost. Unless you have Confusion out, in which case you just sort of win.
Norin is fun because it's not a typical EDH deck. It's fun because winning is overrated, and it's fun because it wins too much.
Also yes, green-based removal sucks hard.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
White removal would do alright too I imagine, Austere Command or Return to Dust amongst other things remove the elements that make Norin generate advantage.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
I think people play norin primarily for the 'what' factor. People look at him before a game and get confused or laugh. People see Kiki and go 'oh'. Nothing against kiki, I had a kiki deck and may remake it soon because it is fun.
I'm trying to build a Norin deck and I was actually wondering how often that happens. the Norin primer is the most viewed primer in the commander forums, so it's not exactly a secret. I realize not every payer comes here, but I'm still surprised that it would be a complete shock to people when you sit down with Norin as your commander. Plus, even if people underestimate him, that only works to your advantage once. It just doesn't seem like a compelling reason to play him as your commander.
the craziness that can ensue with the deck, however, is a good reason.
Killing Norin allows him to be recast, Stifle keeps him in permanent exile.
No it doesn't.
When Norin blinks, he can be sent to the Command Zone. Stifling his return leaves him in the Command Zone to be recast, just as though you had killed him.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
When Norin blinks, he can be sent to the Command Zone. Stifling his return leaves him in the Command Zone to be recast, just as though you had killed him.
Did they change that? I thought you used to be able to.
You can't put you general into your command zone if you chose to put him in your graveyard and then an opponent casts timetwister and this is no different. If Norin is going to come back you need to let him get exiled, and if onthe way back he gets stifled you can't do a damn thing.
You're misunderstanding. I'm not saying to CZ him in response to the Stifle. I'm saying to CZ him instead of exiling him with his own ability in the first place.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
I wanted a to build a mono colored deck that you wouldn't ever think was a control deck. Surprisingly, the deck out paces mono blue control in most cases.
-easy cheap set up. A lot of the control elements of it are very inexpensive making playing around permissions a walk In the park.
-these elements become hard to remove as you start clogging the board with cheap and effective stall artifacts. Sure there's mass removal, but ultimately it's going to be hard for the table to deal with just a winter orb and puzzle box down.
-norin's a surprising stupid good engine. Aside from stifle and torpor orb just straight ruining things, two cards left alone (genesis chamber, confusion in the ranks) will seriously eliminate most deck strategies all together. Also, never underestimate the ability of having a free lightning bolt effect (war storm and any +1 to red cards effect) a turn. It adds up.
The great thing about norin is his engine is a small, but extremely potent package that can easily be the start of any great mono red deck.
Side note: things norin hates. As much as people think he's harmless (he's not) a lot of cards out right shut him down. THis is why it's not smart to wholeheartedly rely on him as the decks main engine.
Which is cool, because Norin's ability exiles him, so instead I send him to the Command Zone.
You're misunderstanding. I'm not saying to CZ him in response to the Stifle. I'm saying to CZ him instead of exiling him with his own ability in the first place.
Haha. Well ain't that wierdass ruling. I can't see it being relevant to anything outside of commander.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Norin is fun because, by virtue of having a general that doesn't force specific plays, every game builds differently. Sure, the board state might often times look the same as it does in other games, but the development to getting there is different.
Let's look at Kiki-Jiki, since you brought it up. With this guy at the helm, you know what you're doing. You want to play value creatures so that on turn 5 you can drop Kiki and start stacking advantages. Norin's turn 5 is up in the air. Norin doesn't care when you play him. You can play him when you're losing, when you're winning, or if you have nothing else to do. By this virtue, the rest of the deck needs to be built around synergies more so than many other decks, as you can't rely on the general to give you an instant boost. Unless you have Confusion out, in which case you just sort of win.
Norin is fun because it's not a typical EDH deck. It's fun because winning is overrated, and it's fun because it wins too much.
Also yes, green-based removal sucks hard.
Yes, green removal sucks as well as targeted LD (i.e. Wake of Destruction making the Snow-covered lands a dual-edged sword). The wheel effects unfortuately helped against a Mimeoplasm deck whose goal was to put his library in the graveyard.
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Numot - Retired
I'm going to edit this in a second to be more clear.
Confusion in the Ranks
Pandemonium
Warstorm Surge
EDIT: I gave up on editing. Just go read this.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
Also Cloudstone Curio
This, too. It's such an underrated quality of the deck.
I sit down at a new table, people look at my general and go, "Well, he's playing just for the 'spirit of EDH,'" not realizing that my deck actually stands a good chance at sweeping the table because they're going to let me get my engines online.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
People always think that too, they're going all "Well, that General looks useless!"
And then I start with a turn 1 Norin, Mana Crypt and Genesis Chamber.
Or Pandemonium.
Or Confusion in the Ranks.
Or Planar Chaos.
Or any of the other 60 cards in the deck.
Quickly followed by raging, yelling and panicking players.
But to explain it to the OP:
Norin has won the same percentage of games for me as Azami or Mimeoplasm, but I had twice the amount of fun while doing it.
On the flip side, if you dont see much green style removal he can do quite well.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
What's green removal please?
To the OP:
The deck generally wins via scoop. I believe I've won exactly 3 games ever with the deck by actually reducing my opponents to 0 life. I've won close to 100 games with my opponents scooping.
I think people play norin primarily for the 'what' factor. People look at him before a game and get confused or laugh. People see Kiki and go 'oh'. Nothing against kiki, I had a kiki deck and may remake it soon because it is fun.
Let's look at Kiki-Jiki, since you brought it up. With this guy at the helm, you know what you're doing. You want to play value creatures so that on turn 5 you can drop Kiki and start stacking advantages. Norin's turn 5 is up in the air. Norin doesn't care when you play him. You can play him when you're losing, when you're winning, or if you have nothing else to do. By this virtue, the rest of the deck needs to be built around synergies more so than many other decks, as you can't rely on the general to give you an instant boost. Unless you have Confusion out, in which case you just sort of win.
Norin is fun because it's not a typical EDH deck. It's fun because winning is overrated, and it's fun because it wins too much.
Also yes, green-based removal sucks hard.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
And Genesis Chamber.
He's hilarious because he looks so worthless until he starts dominating the entire board and stealing everything.
Check out this for an example of abusing Norin the Wary in multicolor: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9259984#post9259984
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
You're forgetting Norin's greatest bane, the mighty Stifle.
Stifle doesn't do anything to Norin that Tim can't do.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Killing Norin allows him to be recast, Stifle keeps him in permanent exile.
I'm trying to build a Norin deck and I was actually wondering how often that happens. the Norin primer is the most viewed primer in the commander forums, so it's not exactly a secret. I realize not every payer comes here, but I'm still surprised that it would be a complete shock to people when you sit down with Norin as your commander. Plus, even if people underestimate him, that only works to your advantage once. It just doesn't seem like a compelling reason to play him as your commander.
the craziness that can ensue with the deck, however, is a good reason.
No it doesn't.
When Norin blinks, he can be sent to the Command Zone. Stifling his return leaves him in the Command Zone to be recast, just as though you had killed him.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Did they change that? I thought you used to be able to.
Nothing changed that I'm aware of.
For reference.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Yes it is. Thanks for proving it.
Which is cool, because Norin's ability exiles him, so instead I send him to the Command Zone.
You're misunderstanding. I'm not saying to CZ him in response to the Stifle. I'm saying to CZ him instead of exiling him with his own ability in the first place.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=189218
I wanted a to build a mono colored deck that you wouldn't ever think was a control deck. Surprisingly, the deck out paces mono blue control in most cases.
-easy cheap set up. A lot of the control elements of it are very inexpensive making playing around permissions a walk In the park.
-these elements become hard to remove as you start clogging the board with cheap and effective stall artifacts. Sure there's mass removal, but ultimately it's going to be hard for the table to deal with just a winter orb and puzzle box down.
-norin's a surprising stupid good engine. Aside from stifle and torpor orb just straight ruining things, two cards left alone (genesis chamber, confusion in the ranks) will seriously eliminate most deck strategies all together. Also, never underestimate the ability of having a free lightning bolt effect (war storm and any +1 to red cards effect) a turn. It adds up.
The great thing about norin is his engine is a small, but extremely potent package that can easily be the start of any great mono red deck.
Side note: things norin hates. As much as people think he's harmless (he's not) a lot of cards out right shut him down. THis is why it's not smart to wholeheartedly rely on him as the decks main engine.
Stuff with sack effects
Stuff that pings dudes
Etc...
Really hurt norin.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Thanks for the reference, I'll trust that bob did his homework.
Haha. Well ain't that wierdass ruling. I can't see it being relevant to anything outside of commander.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Yes, green removal sucks as well as targeted LD (i.e. Wake of Destruction making the Snow-covered lands a dual-edged sword). The wheel effects unfortuately helped against a Mimeoplasm deck whose goal was to put his library in the graveyard.