I am at my local shop playing some 3 player games for fun. Had a scenario in which I could have had a turn 3 Titan(turn 2nd I didn't play relic of prog) but instead had to cast sphinx. That alone gave me enough card advantage to take the game. Most players here do run removal but mainly in the form if board wipes(4 mana or more) with anyone playing white having swords and path. But the chance if having one of the cheap removal spells is very low. If it would have been primetime I would have been stuck with some lands and not many cards in hand to play with all that pretty mana. This is why I think sphinx is at least on the same level, if not worse.
so tomorrow's gonna be my first EDH game after the primeval ban, and I'm dreading it a little bit
i am confident that my store won't try to house rule him back in, but we have a number of very vocal players and the chances of a fight breaking out over the issue are very high. super interested in hearing even more stories about how primetime-free EDH is going for everyone else.
EDIT: also very interested in hearing about any experiences anyone's hand with kokusho after his unbanning.
I am at my local shop playing some 3 player games for fun. Had a scenario in which I could have had a turn 3 Titan(turn 2nd I didn't play relic of prog) but instead had to cast sphinx. That alone gave me enough card advantage to take the game. Most players here do run removal but mainly in the form if board wipes(4 mana or more) with anyone playing white having swords and path. But the chance if having one of the cheap removal spells is very low. If it would have been primetime I would have been stuck with some lands and not many cards in hand to play with all that pretty mana. This is why I think sphinx is at least on the same level, if not worse.
But do we need to base the bannings around playgroups who refuse to play removal?
Nobody is going to ban cards around what is basically, sorry to say this, bad deck-building.
I win almost every single round in my group.
That's A) because I play with Norin as one of my decks and B) because the opponents refuse to play good removal, even though I don't combo at all.
And the chance on it is not that low.
My deck plays 5 small removals, on 100 cards.
Bad math gives me a 50% chance to have at least ONE removal on T3.
If you play with more people, someone can always remove the most OP stuff.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I agree that with Prime Time being banned Consecrated Sphinx is now the #1 6 drop in EDH (IMO). So it is natural that he is of focus here, and it is a natural argument to say, "well what about the Sphinx? The format is now going to be warped around him."
The sphinx is and was always a good bribery/clone/reanimate/steal target, that has not changed. The difference is that with Prime Time you could grab any 2 lands out of your deck, IMMEDIATELY ramping your board towards your win cons, and/or getting the two very best lands for where you were at at that particular moment in the game....about to drop a blue suns zenith? Grab a reliquary tower. Opponenets beat stick online? maze. Mid game and want to simply explode your manna base? Coffers/Urborg....Not only did prime time ramp you, he enabled you to tutor utility lands to suit the current board state. This is ridiculously powerful, and why so many people played him, and played in response to him. To both be able to ramp, get closer to win con, and custom tailor your manna base in response to the current board is just huge. This is why so many games played so similarly for so long now......he was just that good.
The sphinx on the other hand draws you cards. Granted drawing cards is undeinably good it can be random. You can hit 2 basics off your first draw with him, after you have already established your manna. Granted this is good because you have dug through a manna pocket when you don't need it, though it does not improve your immediate board state. Your next draw of two you could hit sakura tribe elder and a rampant growth....again, not relevant. Even though the card draw with the sphinx is always good, and gets you closer to the cards you do need, it can yield cards that are not good at that very moment. In effect, without assisted draw (top, ponder etc), consecrated draw is and always will be random, whereas PT is a tutor.
Hitting 2 choice lands and possibly more every time he swings is ALWAYS good, no debate. There is the possiblity with the Sphinx that your draw is not going to be exactly what you need. Random (sphinx) vs. Always (PT).
Personally, I believe you can't even compare the two cards.
It's not that we dont play "good" removal, it's that in a multi player format you don't win by one for oneing yourself with single spot removal. Board wipes are the way to go an they aren't cheap. Dealing with a bomb on turn 3 or 4 is hard to do.
But do we need to base the bannings around playgroups who refuse to play removal?
Nobody is going to ban cards around what is basically, sorry to say this, bad deck-building.
I win almost every single round in my group.
That's A) because I play with Norin as one of my decks and B) because the opponents refuse to play good removal, even though I don't combo at all.
And the chance on it is not that low.
My deck plays 5 small removals, on 100 cards.
Bad math gives me a 50% chance to have at least ONE removal on T3.
If you play with more people, someone can always remove the most OP stuff.
This is my question. How many of those cards will now be cut? If only a couple is your game plan the same and wil you go about it this way? Use them on terrastadon? Still bringing yourself ahead but just by destroying one land of each opponent 6ish times (or something similar)?
If pt is about the land advantage why is nothing done about Crucible of Worlds? Not all players have the $/cards that the top tier players have and I've seen people just sigh at crucible/fetch lands (not to mention strip mine/wasteland) many times. I'd say this is used in just as many top tier games as pt is/was. I say top tier because those are the games the RC play so I'd guess they've seen this.
Sorry I requested this and didn't reply got busy at work but here are my thoughts.
I am almost in 100% agreement here I think emi isn't described harshly enough as it has crazy evasion as well as extra turn effects. PS I can understand strictly for the whole point of the format is your deck is illegal if it has colors other than you general in it (other than that shouldn't be on the list). Other than that it's about creature with HUGE advantages right away. Comparing ST's must target 5 (10) when all said and done to PT may get 2 isn't really close. I feel he doesn't belong in this company same as koku didn't and that's why he was taken off. All that said we'll see how everything goes over tonight as I redo some decks today.
I will probably cut most of that, the only "OMG KEEP" will be Rite of Rep and Clique, the rest will be tested in the PT-less meta.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
It's not that we dont play "good" removal, it's that in a multi player format you don't win by one for oneing yourself with single spot removal. Board wipes are the way to go an they aren't cheap. Dealing with a bomb on turn 3 or 4 is hard to do.
If you don't play spot removal that is cheap, you do NOT play "good removal".
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
It's not that we dont play "good" removal, it's that in a multi player format you don't win by one for oneing yourself with single spot removal. Board wipes are the way to go an they aren't cheap. Dealing with a bomb on turn 3 or 4 is hard to do.
If you are losing because you are not 1-for-1'ing with spot removal that means you wouldn't be losing if you did use it.
And not losing is one step closer to actually winning
And if that sounds to philosophical:
If you keep losing because of Sphinx, then maybe spot removal isn't as bad as you are making it seem.
To be honest I am sick and tired of that same old argument.
"I am losing due to card X, it's overpowered!"
-"Why don't you play removal?"
"Removal sucks!"
-*Plays removal on their threats and wins the game*
"Removal still sucks!"
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Lol, I'm not the one losing to sphinx, I'm the one abusing it ;-)
I always refer to a random player as 'you', because it's shorter than "a random player who happens to fit the description from this casus".
It's just "you (that might find himself in this situation)".
Anyway! I am abusing him too, and it works because my opponents aren't playing removal.
If you have a WUB-deck without StP's, removal or counters, then you shouldn't complain if a single creature is wrecking your game.
And I don't think the RC should cater to those kind of nubs.
Yes, because when scary cards like Primeval Titan are banned, it really helps spread creativity. Instead of PT, everyone just feels better about themselves and puts in craw wurm #40 instead. And I don't know about you, but it is a lot easier to drink that "spirit of the format" hyper-casual brand EDH kool-aid without having to worry about scary things like non-basic lands.
Because non-basic lands are way scarier than something like Deadeye Nav continually blinking acidic slime and blowing away half of everyone's lands. Ah, now that's real EDH, right Sheldon?
On the bright side for those that actually abide by the banning, at least it's easier to play EDH when you're completely smashed now.
Yes, because when scary cards like Primeval Titan are banned, it really helps spread creativity. Instead of PT, everyone just feels better about themselves and puts in craw wurm #40 instead. And I don't know about you, but it is a lot easier to drink that "spirit of the format" hyper-casual brand EDH kool-aid without having to worry about scary things like non-basic lands.
Because non-basic lands are way scarier than something like Deadeye Nav continually blinking acidic slime and blowing away half of everyone's lands. Ah, now that's real EDH, right Sheldon?
On the bright side for those that actually abide by the banning, at least it's easier to play EDH when you're completely smashed now.
If you continuously ban the scariest card, your pool runs out of cards. Appropriately drawing the line, as you obviously must somewhere, happens right between prime time and sphinx. This distinction could set the precedent for future bannings.
Also your points are indecipherable. What are you saying?
Using the arguement that there are other broken cards, so we shouldn't ban this particular broken card is absurd.
Why does it matter if other cards are around that are still broken but this one is not. If your gripe is that they don't ban broken cards, well you're clearly wrong. I'm not sure where you're coming from ? It's called progress. It takes time.
Do you believe they should target every broken card to be banned at one time ? I don't understand your position ? WTF are you complaining about ?
I'm not complaining I'm stating that if you are going to ban a card like pt you should make sure that the other 10-20 cards that are played just as much and alter the game (and in never a fun/interesting way) just as much sould also be banned.
Damn, didn't see this or I wouldn't have bothered replying to any of your posts. I can always tell what type of player a person is when they make a claim about Library.
I'm intrested in what kind of player I am? Library was not over played, it's monetary value is high enough that most people dont even have (or will get) one, if you hand is full it draws you one card, as stated (even more do now) its not easily tutored.
Because you play a certain way doesn't mean everyone does. I don't play very competitive at all because I don't enjoy it. Our play group has ban a lot of cards that just aren't fun. I've thought many games with pt craziness were very entertaining. I'm just for not seeing all the policing of cards that don't need it.
Yes, because when scary cards like Primeval Titan are banned, it really helps spread creativity. Instead of PT, everyone just feels better about themselves and puts in craw wurm #40 instead. And I don't know about you, but it is a lot easier to drink that "spirit of the format" hyper-casual brand EDH kool-aid without having to worry about scary things like non-basic lands.
Because non-basic lands are way scarier than something like Deadeye Nav continually blinking acidic slime and blowing away half of everyone's lands. Ah, now that's real EDH, right Sheldon? /sarcasm
On the bright side for those that actually abide by the banning, at least it's easier to play EDH when you're completely smashed now.
If you continuously ban the scariest card, your pool runs out of cards. Appropriately drawing the line, as you obviously must somewhere, happens right between prime time and sphinx. This distinction could set the precedent for future bannings.
Also your points are indecipherable. What are you saying?
Because non-basic lands are way scarier than something like Deadeye Nav continually blinking acidic slime and blowing away half of everyone's lands. Ah, now that's real EDH, right Sheldon?
On the bright side for those that actually abide by the banning, at least it's easier to play EDH when you're completely smashed now.
If your issue is that blinking DEN, where is your spot removal or sweeper? Pretending DEN is more centralizing than PT is a joke.
If you don't follow the bannings it is petty to come in here and take pot shots at people from behind your computer at people who do.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Actually I would argue that with PT banned it's a toss up between sun titan and DEN as the next silly centralizing six drop.
I suspect you are right about that, as I'm not seeing anything from R2R earning consideration for that position. But as MRHblue notes, it will be hard to tell for awhile, until the EDH community at large has a chance to stabilize.
I also don't think either is remotely ban-worthy.
Also, before draft tonight I talked with a bunch of the EDHers and got most of a game in (we had to quit to start the draft, but at that point my Mayeal deck was way ahead of the opponents' Ghost Council and Jenara). We chatted about Prime Time, and once again, everybody was fine with it.
It's interesting to see the two clear patterns of people adjusting. Some people are changing their decks significantly. This is particularly true of those who were running Coffers/Urborg and other crazy land combos in 3-color decks. Such people were removing the land combos and cutting back on the ratio of black to other colors. The other group was mostly just taking out Prime Time and maybe running slightly fewer utility lands. The notable trend there was lower average CMC to account for the loss of the Titan, but people were all over the place in regard to what they were putting into the decks in place of Prime Time. About half of the people I've talked to replaced Titan with ramp of one sort or another, and some people maintained the land combos and are running things like Sylvan Scrying or Explorer's Map to help get the combo, but there was no pattern at all evident among the other choices
Because I have 4 decks with my brother that have green and we don't put Hermit Druid in every single one of them.
So obviously it's not thát broken.
We have around 10-14 green decks in the entire playgroup and again: nobody plays Hermit druid because he's not that special.
PS. Every single deck with green plays Primeval Titan.
But do we need to base the bannings around playgroups who refuse to play removal?
Nobody is going to ban cards around what is basically, sorry to say this, bad deck-building.
I win almost every single round in my group.
That's A) because I play with Norin as one of my decks and B) because the opponents refuse to play good removal, even though I don't combo at all.
And the chance on it is not that low.
My deck plays 5 small removals, on 100 cards.
Bad math gives me a 50% chance to have at least ONE removal on T3.
If you play with more people, someone can always remove the most OP stuff.
EDIT: I don't think he should be banned, but I understand why thats a hot topic. Also it is blue.
The sphinx is and was always a good bribery/clone/reanimate/steal target, that has not changed. The difference is that with Prime Time you could grab any 2 lands out of your deck, IMMEDIATELY ramping your board towards your win cons, and/or getting the two very best lands for where you were at at that particular moment in the game....about to drop a blue suns zenith? Grab a reliquary tower. Opponenets beat stick online? maze. Mid game and want to simply explode your manna base? Coffers/Urborg....Not only did prime time ramp you, he enabled you to tutor utility lands to suit the current board state. This is ridiculously powerful, and why so many people played him, and played in response to him. To both be able to ramp, get closer to win con, and custom tailor your manna base in response to the current board is just huge. This is why so many games played so similarly for so long now......he was just that good.
The sphinx on the other hand draws you cards. Granted drawing cards is undeinably good it can be random. You can hit 2 basics off your first draw with him, after you have already established your manna. Granted this is good because you have dug through a manna pocket when you don't need it, though it does not improve your immediate board state. Your next draw of two you could hit sakura tribe elder and a rampant growth....again, not relevant. Even though the card draw with the sphinx is always good, and gets you closer to the cards you do need, it can yield cards that are not good at that very moment. In effect, without assisted draw (top, ponder etc), consecrated draw is and always will be random, whereas PT is a tutor.
Hitting 2 choice lands and possibly more every time he swings is ALWAYS good, no debate. There is the possiblity with the Sphinx that your draw is not going to be exactly what you need. Random (sphinx) vs. Always (PT).
Personally, I believe you can't even compare the two cards.
I will probably cut most of that, the only "OMG KEEP" will be Rite of Rep and Clique, the rest will be tested in the PT-less meta.
Must we always ban the scariest card?
If you are losing because you are not 1-for-1'ing with spot removal that means you wouldn't be losing if you did use it.
And not losing is one step closer to actually winning
And if that sounds to philosophical:
If you keep losing because of Sphinx, then maybe spot removal isn't as bad as you are making it seem.
To be honest I am sick and tired of that same old argument.
"I am losing due to card X, it's overpowered!"
-"Why don't you play removal?"
"Removal sucks!"
-*Plays removal on their threats and wins the game*
"Removal still sucks!"
I always refer to a random player as 'you', because it's shorter than "a random player who happens to fit the description from this casus".
It's just "you (that might find himself in this situation)".
Anyway! I am abusing him too, and it works because my opponents aren't playing removal.
If you have a WUB-deck without StP's, removal or counters, then you shouldn't complain if a single creature is wrecking your game.
And I don't think the RC should cater to those kind of nubs.
Yes, because when scary cards like Primeval Titan are banned, it really helps spread creativity. Instead of PT, everyone just feels better about themselves and puts in craw wurm #40 instead. And I don't know about you, but it is a lot easier to drink that "spirit of the format" hyper-casual brand EDH kool-aid without having to worry about scary things like non-basic lands.
Because non-basic lands are way scarier than something like Deadeye Nav continually blinking acidic slime and blowing away half of everyone's lands. Ah, now that's real EDH, right Sheldon?
On the bright side for those that actually abide by the banning, at least it's easier to play EDH when you're completely smashed now.
Isperia, Supreme Judge: Control
Malfegor: Control
If you continuously ban the scariest card, your pool runs out of cards. Appropriately drawing the line, as you obviously must somewhere, happens right between prime time and sphinx. This distinction could set the precedent for future bannings.
Also your points are indecipherable. What are you saying?
Because you play a certain way doesn't mean everyone does. I don't play very competitive at all because I don't enjoy it. Our play group has ban a lot of cards that just aren't fun. I've thought many games with pt craziness were very entertaining. I'm just for not seeing all the policing of cards that don't need it.
The correct answer would be Kokusho, the Evening star
Edited in bold/underline/italicized for clarity.
If you don't follow the bannings it is petty to come in here and take pot shots at people from behind your computer at people who do.
Actually I would argue that with PT banned it's a toss up between sun titan and DEN as the next silly centralizing six drop.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/32013878880/does-r-d-take-the-official-commander-banned-list-into
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I suspect you are right about that, as I'm not seeing anything from R2R earning consideration for that position. But as MRHblue notes, it will be hard to tell for awhile, until the EDH community at large has a chance to stabilize.
I also don't think either is remotely ban-worthy.
Also, before draft tonight I talked with a bunch of the EDHers and got most of a game in (we had to quit to start the draft, but at that point my Mayeal deck was way ahead of the opponents' Ghost Council and Jenara). We chatted about Prime Time, and once again, everybody was fine with it.
It's interesting to see the two clear patterns of people adjusting. Some people are changing their decks significantly. This is particularly true of those who were running Coffers/Urborg and other crazy land combos in 3-color decks. Such people were removing the land combos and cutting back on the ratio of black to other colors. The other group was mostly just taking out Prime Time and maybe running slightly fewer utility lands. The notable trend there was lower average CMC to account for the loss of the Titan, but people were all over the place in regard to what they were putting into the decks in place of Prime Time. About half of the people I've talked to replaced Titan with ramp of one sort or another, and some people maintained the land combos and are running things like Sylvan Scrying or Explorer's Map to help get the combo, but there was no pattern at all evident among the other choices
"Once again - we do not control the Commander banned list. It is done by an independent group from Wizards."
Kind of strange wording. Shouldn't it say a group independent from wizards?
I am no English scholar that's why I ask.