I'm sure the top ten green tutors are better than the top ten black tutors in decks dedicated to their colours, especially seeing as Survival of the Fittest can essentially be infinite tutors.
I'm not sure what is meant by "dedicated to their colors", but regarding the top ten:
There you have ten (plus a bonus) black tutors which can tutor for any card type and which cost 5cc or less. Four of them have potential to search for multiple cards.
Yes, I am aware Survival of the Fittest is an excellent card. But it's one card. Thankfully, my Teneb deck has plenty of non-conditional, inexpensive black tutors to ensure that I have access to cards like Survival consistently.
By that train of logic, Azusa/Exploration and Life from the Loam or Crucible with one of the MANY lands that kill other lands is the best strategy in the game as you simply lock a player out from casting anything ever.
Yup. Prison locks are good. I won't deny that. But since when has green been good at prison locks? Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine are colorless. You have access to a second Crucible in LftL and Primeval Titan will help you draw Stip Mine more often... but with my black tutors and blue counterspells, I will STILL draw and protect my combo faster than any green deck will.
Furthermore, how do you expect to counter a Genesis Wave or Decree that was caste using Bisojue, who shelters all? Not many colours can come out even after a Genesis Wave I hear.
I don't I guess. I hope he doesn't draw it. Or, even better, I smartly remove that card from play before it significantly hinders my greatest advantage.
I have a question for you, though, how do you, a green player, expect to counter a Genesis Wave or Decree that was cast using a Boseiju, Who Shelters All?
(The point here is that I don't need to draw my singleton hoser card to own a green deck on the stack.)
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EDH Azami (video)
:symw::symb::symg: Teneb (video) Drana (video) (retired)
:symw::symr: Brion (video)
:symb::symr: Wort (video) Arcum (video) (retired)
:symr::symg: Stonebrow (video) BShirei (video) WURasputin (video) (retired) RUrabrask (video) WURZedruu (video) (retired) WIsamaru UBGrimgrin UMistform Ultimus (video) UBRGwendlyn (video) URGAnimar (video) RGThromok WBSelenia Standard WUGeist of Saint Traft standard EDH (video) (retired) WUB Battle of Wits!
The number of banned blue cards is irrelevant. This discussion is about the cards you CAN play, not the cards you can't.
Or would you measure the strength of Vintage based on how many banned cards there are of each color? Is black the best color because it has Darkpact, Contract from Below, Timerian Fiends, and Demonic Attorney? Is red second best because it has Falling Star and Tempest Efreet?
You made a blanket statement. Which is clearly false given the nature it was presented. I merely responded. Also, you failed to read the rest of my post where I submit that Blue's overall CA is better than any one card Green has. It is simple, More cards = More options = more chances to have either an answer or a win-con.
I personally think Green is better than Blue because Green has the raw power behind it. Primeval Titan, Terrastadon, and Avenger of Zendikar have all added an absurd amount of power to the color, especially when paired with all the ways to find it. And then there are the Eldrazi on top of that. The redundancy of said power increase puts Green way higher on the map than I think most people think, as every Green tutor is Demonic Tutor 'cause they all get the only cards Green needs. Green can do everything except stack control, which is severely nerfed in this format.
I'm not saying Blue is bad, I'm saying my buddy and my brother play Green, and neither one of them loses very often, even against experienced Blue mages. They've gotten a lot of goodies as of late, and it's pushed them over the edge as far as I can tell.
I personally think Green is better than Blue because Green has the raw power behind it. Primeval Titan, Terrastadon, and Avenger of Zendikar have all added an absurd amount of power to the color, especially when paired with all the ways to find it. And then there are the Eldrazi on top of that. The redundancy of said power increase puts Green way higher on the map than I think most people think, as every Green tutor is Demonic Tutor 'cause they all get the only cards Green needs. Green can do everything except stack control, which is severely nerfed in this format.
I'm not saying Blue is bad, I'm saying my buddy and my brother play Green, and neither one of them loses very often, even against experienced Blue mages. They've gotten a lot of goodies as of late, and it's pushed them over the edge as far as I can tell.
What is funny about this thread is that ultimately it really does not matter which color is better. It just comes down to play groups and play styles. In my group I have a number of very experienced control players, and it is a common theme of games that aggro decks that can't keep up with the card advantage just run out of gas and get steamrolled. So they either need to beat them quickly or hope that you can catch them before they completely stabilize. I mean, hey, why is nobody talking about the merits of white or red as a mono color...oh yeah...
The power of an EDH deck is the product of its mana production and card advantage. Blue has better card advantage but way worse mana production. Green's card advantage isn't great, but it's not terrible either. All it takes is one Momentous Fall to win the game, after all. And it actually has the mana to put all of those amazing draws into play quickly. Green has both strong tempo and just enough card advantage to back it up.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
There you have ten (plus a bonus) black tutors which can tutor for any card type and which cost 5cc or less. Four of them have potential to search for multiple cards.
I'm a nice guy, so I threw in a matching number plus one extra. Remember, that while green is restricted primarily to creatures, their tutors often times are reusable (Survival/GSZ), act as removal when needed (Exarch/Command), and can just outright win the game if they resolve (Tooth and Nail/Defense of the Heart).
Seems pretty close to me, and when you factor in that Green rarely needs anything but creatures then you start to realise just how powerful their tutors are, and how much they actually resemble black tutors. That's what I meant by decks dedicated to their colours, not decks like Teneb which are multi-coloured and need Survival as more of an engine than a Tutor. Hermit Druid is a highly busted card, but it's not exactly at its peak in Green alone, whereas Survival of the Fittest is.
Yup. Prison locks are good. I won't deny that. But since when has green been good at prison locks? Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine are colorless. You have access to a second Crucible in LftL and Primeval Titan will help you draw Stip Mine more often... but with my black tutors and blue counterspells, I will STILL draw and protect my combo faster than any green deck will.
They're colourless, but only green can lock players out efficiently with lands. Note, I said players as they can do it to more than one thanks to cards like Azusa, Exploration, Burgeoning, and so forth. Green also has Krosan Grip which can stop your Crucible in it's tracks and turn off most of the combos in Mono Blue as they usually involve something like Mind over Matter or bouncing a Sol Ring with a Manavualt using Tidespouts.
A good green deck is probably going for the throat by the time you're ready to start drawing enough cards due to its ramp and abilities to stall you out.
I don't I guess. I hope he doesn't draw it. Or, even better, I smartly remove that card from play before it significantly hinders my greatest advantage.
I have a question for you, though, how do you, a green player, expect to counter a Genesis Wave or Decree that was cast using a Boseiju, Who Shelters All?
(The point here is that I don't need to draw my singleton hoser card to own a green deck on the stack.)
It's rather hard to remove a land for good in a green deck, as we've discovered in our prior discussions. You seem to be very reactive in this game, meaning that the Green player needs one spell to close up the game in most cases, and with the heavy Mana afforded to them it shouldn't be too bad.
Well a Genesis wave is easier to deal with, you want something like Spike Weaver and you can hold the fort for a while, and you have plenty of tutors for him. As for Decree, you just recover from it by casting that Genesis Wave you've been slow rolling or not letting it get to that point as Decree is 8 mana.
Oh, and I hear a Genesis is great card advantage for a Green player that really helps push through those counter spells.
Agreed. People's perception of how good a specific colour is tends to be heavily influenced by what their local meta looks like. And EDH metas are absurdly diverse - much more so than the metas for say Standard or Legacy.
In my local meta/playgroup(s) there's pretty general agreement that green is by far the best colour, followed by blue and then either black or white. But I'm sure that has a lot to do with the fact that one of the strongest decks we see is based on Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
This is correct, and the major reason I say that people can make a strong case for green being #1, which is different from it being defacto decided. It's very metagame dependent. I'm sure green is slightly better in my metagame, but that's largely because the decks are so fast that blue decks don't have enough time to ramp up for the late game. I could understand other metagames being different.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Agreed. People's perception of how good a specific colour is tends to be heavily influenced by what their local meta looks like. And EDH metas are absurdly diverse - much more so than the metas for say Standard or Legacy.
In my local meta/playgroup(s) there's pretty general agreement that green is by far the best colour, followed by blue and then either black or white. But I'm sure that has a lot to do with the fact that one of the strongest decks we see is based on Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
All of my opinions are unbiased due to having never played a single game of EDH with another player.
Logic, recognition, and understanding of efficiency rule my opinions.
Undoubtedly, my having just joined this format holds its pros and cons.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
Not making a case for either as I feel both are great, but you're forgetting Primeval Titan for some great 2 land tutoring action.
True, but I just went up to 12 and stopped. Really it's not so much about proving one is obviously better than the other, but rather that the two are comparable enough that it's impossible to say which is truly better without considering other exogenous factors, such as meta or ability to play with other colours. However, then the systems really break down :/.
We could probably write several pages comparing and contrasting the utility of a green tutor versus that of a black tutor in a mono coloured environment. The obvious deductions would be that each has high points and low points.
lol Tedv you really let the cat out of the bag this time. I do actually agree with you to an extent on green's power. I would at least give it #2 at the least. While black has some good tutors I have found that it really only has like 2 good ones that are widely affordable so if you actually have to have some sort of budget and cant fork over the $100+ that most of black's good tutors go for I find green to be superior.
However in this situation it is in part due to budget reasons that I give green a higher rating than black. I cant say if I would do otherwise if I had access to the other tutors however I know that due to the fact that I am an agro player and generally not a combo player I actually prefur green's tutors as they do what I want to be doing. Plus green has so much better creatures it isnt even a contest for agro.
As for green vs blue though. I have to admit that counterspells are not what makes blue powerful at all in multiplayer commander. In fact counterspells are really sort of suck in multiplayer as it is too hard to reliably use them everywhere. With spot removal you can just defend yourself whereas counterspells you have to pre-emptively stop a threat and sort of turn the game into archenemy.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Could somebody first define what it is to be "the best color in EDH"? This is such a nebulous term this thread will probably be locked in no time from circular arguments and people talking past each others' points if we don't come to an agreement as to what it means to be a good color in EDH.
Is it to be the best color across all metagames, essentially the best for a hardcore "cutthroat" environment? The top-tier generals are so few you might as well be comparing them to each other.
Is it the color that brings the most benefit to a general? This is dependent on generals too so it could be difficult to define.
Is it the color that you would choose first, and then choose the general to accommodate it?
I'm really having a hard time finding ways to define what makes a color good in EDH.
Could somebody first define what it is to be "the best color in EDH"? This is such a nebulous term this thread will probably be locked in no time from circular arguments and people talking past each others' points if we don't come to an agreement as to what it means to be a good color in EDH.
Is it to be the best color across all metagames, essentially the best for a hardcore "cutthroat" environment? The top-tier generals are so few you might as well be comparing them to each other.
Is it the color that brings the most benefit to a general? This is dependent on generals too so it could be difficult to define.
Is it the color that you would choose first, and then choose the general to accommodate it?
I'm really having a hard time finding ways to define what makes a color good in EDH.
Finally, a voice text of reason.
What makes a color good in EDH? Personally, I believe it comes down to three key elements, and they can vary for each person, hence the argument. I'll give my best shot at explaining my own stance on this.
1. The level of power, efficiency, and threat that every spell and possible commander which said color can provide.
2. Is the color going to be used in multiplayer EDH or 1v1? Both run entirely different, and most cards have significantly greater or lesser impact depending on how many players are involved.
3. What type of gaming environment are you in? Is it well diversified in deck types, or does everyone seem to play miscellaneous copies of the same deck? Is it more casual or is it cutthroat? If everyone in your meta plays nothing but mana ramping green landfall, a boros deck with land destruction will do well here. If everyone plays UB control, it can easily be the opposite.
What color plays best is a neverending argument, because when it comes down to it EDH does what it is supposed to do; remains a social and fun game. We do not have access to world tournament winning deck lists simply because there are none. (I'm new, if this is false, let me know!) The strength of any color is determined just as much by its individual prowess as the social environment that it is being played in, which can vary greatly from person to person. EDH offers unique experiences and opinions for every individual because of this, and right now that's the beauty of it. Freedom from being forced to run things like Caw-Blade or Valakut and retaining the ability to incorporate individuality and personal touch into your deck without it losing its viability. There is no best deck, color, card, or combo in this format. Diversity defines EDH Commander, and that's what is so amazing about it.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
Also can we clarify if we are talking about 1v1 or multiplayer? 1v1, counterspells are great but multiplayer, not so much. I have been reading the responses and this discussion thread has turned into little skirmishes among a few members.....
I think it depends on how the EDH is being played. If it is a casual meta with no board locks or mass LD or infi extra turns or win the game combos, then Blue is quite a bit worse and Green should roflstomp any completion to being the best color. Blue at that point draws cards and counters spells, but cannot really win., while green just does stuff so big and often that countering cannot keep up.
However, in a game where anything goes, Green just fails to Blue, since Green land ramp is allowed to be kept in check, then Blue's being the only color with serious stack manipulations easily makes it the best color.
However, in both cases Black is sitting solidly at number two because of tutors and Necro.
tl;dr- In casual games where you must win with creatures, then Blue is not the best, Green is. In the games with just the banned list, non-Blue decks really do not have a chance in a competitive meta, unless the deck relies HEAVILY on the general.
I can't agree on the best colour of Edh is blue or green. In our games, those colours are only support, not a real win condition besides 1 Sygg, River Cutthroat deck. Black is the real powerhouse, re-animator is the best and most reliable strategy for EDH.
Different metas, different views. I don't like only winning through combo, so I rarely play blue. My Sharuum deck is mostly black with white/blue back up.
This list sums up most the cards in our playgroup: Artifacts
Sensei's Divining Top
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Grim Monolith
Basalt Monolith
Crucible of Worlds
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Tormod's Crypt
Nihil Spellbomb
Relic of Progenitus
Smokestack
Sculpting Steel
Black
Bitterblossom
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Reanimate
Animate Dead
Necromancy
Braids, Cabal Minion
Mind Twist
Necropotence
Phyrexian Arena
Sorrin Markov
White
Enlightened Tutor
Sun Titan
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Serra Ascendant
Stoneforge Mystic
Blue
Tezzeret the Seeker
Mystical Tutor
Fact or Fiction
Cryptic Command
Windfall
Stroke of Genius
Braingeyser
Red
Godo
Wheel of Fortune
Goblin Assault
Jokulhaups
Obliterate
Ruination
Price of Progress
Green
Primevil Titan
Multi-colour
Magister Sphinx
Lim-Dul's Vault
Do you see a theme? My playgroup is dominated by re-animator/ramp/tutors/draw.
The only blue deck that can keep up is R/B because of mass land destruction via Obliterate/Jokulhaups/Devastation. Etc.
The sheer power of blue cards and the ability to play many of them at instant speed is incredible. In 1 vs 1, its hard to contest that blue followed by black and green is the best color. In multiplayer one of blue's major weapons is less effective, but it still has very powerful cards. Green has permanent removal, but only one good creature removal spell, beast within.
But seriously, what does it matter? You play what you like or you play what you think will win, which in 1 vs 1 will often be Ux.
Yep, blue and green are great. No, this thread is not going to resolve anything. It makes me when I see how often people here get so easily roped into pointless discussions like this. Play whatever the hell you want, there's no resolution to this debate because of
1. The insanely diverse metagame that the EDH community possesses.
2. The fact that some people are such die hard fans of one color or another that they'll never admit to another color simply being superior, despite hard evidence.
3. The fact that users here often get butthurt over minutia that has to do with a trading card game, and therefore stop arguing their points intelligently or simply stop posting.
Blue is stronger than green in EDH (dunno if I'd go as far as saying magic, format variants hurt that too much - Jund era standard for example).
Standard changes things regularly, and as pointed out, it's not always #1 in Standard. Extended changes too, to a lesser extent. The eternal formats, though, love blue all over.
Yes, you are correct. This was true... a bit more then 2 years ago. Currently, EDH decks flavor creatures and in general the ability to use the combat steps. This is not a casual trait, but a very, very competitive one. Old, sluggish decks with big, fancy and fatty spells are a thing of the past. Decks currently need to already have a major board presence on the field, by turn 5 and start hitting each other.
Blue fails hard in this new meta.
It by no means "fails hard".
But I agree with the rest. I think there is a group of very good players that will deny green's strength because the new cards and tech has not reached thier meta yet. Once it does I think they will be in for a big surprise. I think they are just being stubborn and dogmatic and have just gotten so used to blue being top dog that they can't criticaly step away from thier own dogma. Its like hearing that a loved one has died. Some people go into denial and the reality of the death doesn't really hit home until later.
Yep, blue and green are great. No, this thread is not going to resolve anything. It makes me when I see how often people here get so easily roped into pointless discussions like this. Play whatever the hell you want, there's no resolution to this debate because of
1. The insanely diverse metagame that the EDH community possesses.
2. The fact that some people are such die hard fans of one color or another that they'll never admit to another color simply being superior, despite hard evidence.
3. The fact that users here often get butthurt over minutia that has to do with a trading card game, and therefore stop arguing their points intelligently or simply stop posting.
Please, please stop making these threads.
You know what points #2 and #3 all have in common? They are problems with people who can not discuss things in a civil manner, not problems with the discussions themselves. So why ask people to stop making threads like this? Why not instead ask people to grow up?
1) Are we trying to determine if Blue or Green as a mono colored deck is the strongest?
Or are we trying to determine if Blue or Green is the best altogether being multiplayer or monocolored?
2) Are we looking multiplayer or 1v1? Clearly blue looses some huge power in multiplayer.
I think its safe to assume we are talking about the strength of the two in general. Both in mono and multi colored decks.
Also, assume we are talking about a table of four people. Talking about 1v1 EDH is like talking about extended. Its kind of pointless because so few people really play it in comparison the the size of the rest of the community. For every person that biulds a 1v1 deck there are 20 more that only biuld thier EDH decks for multiplayer.
I think we are talking about contexts where you are playing exactly one of blue and green, to compare their relative strengths. Knowing which color is #1 is meaningless when playing a five color deck, because you have access to that color no matter what it might be. So this is more about comparing a green/red deck to a blue/red deck, or a doran deck to an esper deck.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
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I'm not sure what is meant by "dedicated to their colors", but regarding the top ten:
There you have ten (plus a bonus) black tutors which can tutor for any card type and which cost 5cc or less. Four of them have potential to search for multiple cards.
Yes, I am aware Survival of the Fittest is an excellent card. But it's one card. Thankfully, my Teneb deck has plenty of non-conditional, inexpensive black tutors to ensure that I have access to cards like Survival consistently.
I'll restate: it isn't even close.
Yup. Prison locks are good. I won't deny that. But since when has green been good at prison locks? Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine are colorless. You have access to a second Crucible in LftL and Primeval Titan will help you draw Stip Mine more often... but with my black tutors and blue counterspells, I will STILL draw and protect my combo faster than any green deck will.
I don't I guess. I hope he doesn't draw it. Or, even better, I smartly remove that card from play before it significantly hinders my greatest advantage.
I have a question for you, though, how do you, a green player, expect to counter a Genesis Wave or Decree that was cast using a Boseiju, Who Shelters All?
(The point here is that I don't need to draw my singleton hoser card to own a green deck on the stack.)
EDH
Azami (video)
:symw::symb::symg: Teneb (video)
Drana (video) (retired)
:symw::symr: Brion (video)
:symb::symr: Wort (video)
Arcum (video) (retired)
:symr::symg: Stonebrow (video)
B Shirei (video)
WU Rasputin (video) (retired)
R Urabrask (video)
WUR Zedruu (video) (retired)
W Isamaru
UB Grimgrin
U Mistform Ultimus (video)
UBR Gwendlyn (video)
URG Animar (video)
RG Thromok
WB Selenia
Standard
WU Geist of Saint Traft standard EDH (video) (retired)
WUB Battle of Wits!
You made a blanket statement. Which is clearly false given the nature it was presented. I merely responded. Also, you failed to read the rest of my post where I submit that Blue's overall CA is better than any one card Green has. It is simple, More cards = More options = more chances to have either an answer or a win-con.
I'm not saying Blue is bad, I'm saying my buddy and my brother play Green, and neither one of them loses very often, even against experienced Blue mages. They've gotten a lot of goodies as of late, and it's pushed them over the edge as far as I can tell.
BRRakdos, Lord of RiotsBR
What is funny about this thread is that ultimately it really does not matter which color is better. It just comes down to play groups and play styles. In my group I have a number of very experienced control players, and it is a common theme of games that aggro decks that can't keep up with the card advantage just run out of gas and get steamrolled. So they either need to beat them quickly or hope that you can catch them before they completely stabilize. I mean, hey, why is nobody talking about the merits of white or red as a mono color...oh yeah...
Think about it. This is a fun format. If you have the most fun playing green, then green is the best color. It provides you with the most fun.
For me, that color is black.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
1.) Survival of the Fittest
2.) Green Sun's Zenith
3.) Worldly Tutor
4.) Sylvan Tutor
5.) Primal Command
6.) Tooth and Nail
7.) Brutalizer Exarch
8.) Summoner's Pact
9.) Defense of the Heart
10.) Chord of Calling
11.) Fauna Shaman
12.) Pattern's of Rebirth
I'm a nice guy, so I threw in a matching number plus one extra. Remember, that while green is restricted primarily to creatures, their tutors often times are reusable (Survival/GSZ), act as removal when needed (Exarch/Command), and can just outright win the game if they resolve (Tooth and Nail/Defense of the Heart).
Seems pretty close to me, and when you factor in that Green rarely needs anything but creatures then you start to realise just how powerful their tutors are, and how much they actually resemble black tutors. That's what I meant by decks dedicated to their colours, not decks like Teneb which are multi-coloured and need Survival as more of an engine than a Tutor. Hermit Druid is a highly busted card, but it's not exactly at its peak in Green alone, whereas Survival of the Fittest is.
They're colourless, but only green can lock players out efficiently with lands. Note, I said players as they can do it to more than one thanks to cards like Azusa, Exploration, Burgeoning, and so forth. Green also has Krosan Grip which can stop your Crucible in it's tracks and turn off most of the combos in Mono Blue as they usually involve something like Mind over Matter or bouncing a Sol Ring with a Manavualt using Tidespouts.
A good green deck is probably going for the throat by the time you're ready to start drawing enough cards due to its ramp and abilities to stall you out.
It's rather hard to remove a land for good in a green deck, as we've discovered in our prior discussions. You seem to be very reactive in this game, meaning that the Green player needs one spell to close up the game in most cases, and with the heavy Mana afforded to them it shouldn't be too bad.
Well a Genesis wave is easier to deal with, you want something like Spike Weaver and you can hold the fort for a while, and you have plenty of tutors for him. As for Decree, you just recover from it by casting that Genesis Wave you've been slow rolling or not letting it get to that point as Decree is 8 mana.
Oh, and I hear a Genesis is great card advantage for a Green player that really helps push through those counter spells.
This is correct, and the major reason I say that people can make a strong case for green being #1, which is different from it being defacto decided. It's very metagame dependent. I'm sure green is slightly better in my metagame, but that's largely because the decks are so fast that blue decks don't have enough time to ramp up for the late game. I could understand other metagames being different.
All of my opinions are unbiased due to having never played a single game of EDH with another player.
Logic, recognition, and understanding of efficiency rule my opinions.
Undoubtedly, my having just joined this format holds its pros and cons.
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
Not making a case for either as I feel both are great, but you're forgetting Primeval Titan for some great 2 land tutoring action.
True, but I just went up to 12 and stopped. Really it's not so much about proving one is obviously better than the other, but rather that the two are comparable enough that it's impossible to say which is truly better without considering other exogenous factors, such as meta or ability to play with other colours. However, then the systems really break down :/.
We could probably write several pages comparing and contrasting the utility of a green tutor versus that of a black tutor in a mono coloured environment. The obvious deductions would be that each has high points and low points.
However in this situation it is in part due to budget reasons that I give green a higher rating than black. I cant say if I would do otherwise if I had access to the other tutors however I know that due to the fact that I am an agro player and generally not a combo player I actually prefur green's tutors as they do what I want to be doing. Plus green has so much better creatures it isnt even a contest for agro.
As for green vs blue though. I have to admit that counterspells are not what makes blue powerful at all in multiplayer commander. In fact counterspells are really sort of suck in multiplayer as it is too hard to reliably use them everywhere. With spot removal you can just defend yourself whereas counterspells you have to pre-emptively stop a threat and sort of turn the game into archenemy.
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[Modern] Allies
Could somebody first define what it is to be "the best color in EDH"? This is such a nebulous term this thread will probably be locked in no time from circular arguments and people talking past each others' points if we don't come to an agreement as to what it means to be a good color in EDH.
Is it to be the best color across all metagames, essentially the best for a hardcore "cutthroat" environment? The top-tier generals are so few you might as well be comparing them to each other.
Is it the color that brings the most benefit to a general? This is dependent on generals too so it could be difficult to define.
Is it the color that you would choose first, and then choose the general to accommodate it?
I'm really having a hard time finding ways to define what makes a color good in EDH.
Finally, a
voicetext of reason.What makes a color good in EDH? Personally, I believe it comes down to three key elements, and they can vary for each person, hence the argument. I'll give my best shot at explaining my own stance on this.
1. The level of power, efficiency, and threat that every spell and possible commander which said color can provide.
2. Is the color going to be used in multiplayer EDH or 1v1? Both run entirely different, and most cards have significantly greater or lesser impact depending on how many players are involved.
3. What type of gaming environment are you in? Is it well diversified in deck types, or does everyone seem to play miscellaneous copies of the same deck? Is it more casual or is it cutthroat? If everyone in your meta plays nothing but mana ramping green landfall, a boros deck with land destruction will do well here. If everyone plays UB control, it can easily be the opposite.
What color plays best is a neverending argument, because when it comes down to it EDH does what it is supposed to do; remains a social and fun game. We do not have access to world tournament winning deck lists simply because there are none. (I'm new, if this is false, let me know!) The strength of any color is determined just as much by its individual prowess as the social environment that it is being played in, which can vary greatly from person to person. EDH offers unique experiences and opinions for every individual because of this, and right now that's the beauty of it. Freedom from being forced to run things like Caw-Blade or Valakut and retaining the ability to incorporate individuality and personal touch into your deck without it losing its viability. There is no best deck, color, card, or combo in this format. Diversity defines EDH Commander, and that's what is so amazing about it.
/thread?
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
Wanted Card List: (PM me)
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Ravages of War
1 Swords to Plowshares (Judge)
1 Land Tax (Judge)
U
1 Mana Vortex
B
1 Desolation Angel (Foil)
1 Guardian Beast
1 Contamination
R
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
G
1 Food Chain
WUBRG
1 Rohgahh of Kher Keep
X
1 Charcoal Diamond (Foil)
1 Fellwar Stone (Foil)
T
1 Temple Garden (Foil)
3 Mutavault
1 Kor Haven
However, in a game where anything goes, Green just fails to Blue, since Green land ramp is allowed to be kept in check, then Blue's being the only color with serious stack manipulations easily makes it the best color.
However, in both cases Black is sitting solidly at number two because of tutors and Necro.
tl;dr- In casual games where you must win with creatures, then Blue is not the best, Green is. In the games with just the banned list, non-Blue decks really do not have a chance in a competitive meta, unless the deck relies HEAVILY on the general.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Different metas, different views. I don't like only winning through combo, so I rarely play blue. My Sharuum deck is mostly black with white/blue back up.
This list sums up most the cards in our playgroup:
Artifacts
Sensei's Divining Top
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Grim Monolith
Basalt Monolith
Crucible of Worlds
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Tormod's Crypt
Nihil Spellbomb
Relic of Progenitus
Smokestack
Sculpting Steel
Black
Bitterblossom
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Reanimate
Animate Dead
Necromancy
Braids, Cabal Minion
Mind Twist
Necropotence
Phyrexian Arena
Sorrin Markov
White
Enlightened Tutor
Sun Titan
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Serra Ascendant
Stoneforge Mystic
Blue
Tezzeret the Seeker
Mystical Tutor
Fact or Fiction
Cryptic Command
Windfall
Stroke of Genius
Braingeyser
Red
Godo
Wheel of Fortune
Goblin Assault
Jokulhaups
Obliterate
Ruination
Price of Progress
Green
Primevil Titan
Multi-colour
Magister Sphinx
Lim-Dul's Vault
Do you see a theme? My playgroup is dominated by re-animator/ramp/tutors/draw.
The only blue deck that can keep up is R/B because of mass land destruction via Obliterate/Jokulhaups/Devastation. Etc.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
But seriously, what does it matter? You play what you like or you play what you think will win, which in 1 vs 1 will often be Ux.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
1. The insanely diverse metagame that the EDH community possesses.
2. The fact that some people are such die hard fans of one color or another that they'll never admit to another color simply being superior, despite hard evidence.
3. The fact that users here often get butthurt over minutia that has to do with a trading card game, and therefore stop arguing their points intelligently or simply stop posting.
Please, please stop making these threads.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
But I agree with the rest. I think there is a group of very good players that will deny green's strength because the new cards and tech has not reached thier meta yet. Once it does I think they will be in for a big surprise. I think they are just being stubborn and dogmatic and have just gotten so used to blue being top dog that they can't criticaly step away from thier own dogma. Its like hearing that a loved one has died. Some people go into denial and the reality of the death doesn't really hit home until later.
You know what points #2 and #3 all have in common? They are problems with people who can not discuss things in a civil manner, not problems with the discussions themselves. So why ask people to stop making threads like this? Why not instead ask people to grow up?
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
1) Are we trying to determine if Blue or Green as a mono colored deck is the strongest?
Or are we trying to determine if Blue or Green is the best altogether being multiplayer or monocolored?
2) Are we looking multiplayer or 1v1? Clearly blue looses some huge power in multiplayer.
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[Modern] Allies
Also, assume we are talking about a table of four people. Talking about 1v1 EDH is like talking about extended. Its kind of pointless because so few people really play it in comparison the the size of the rest of the community. For every person that biulds a 1v1 deck there are 20 more that only biuld thier EDH decks for multiplayer.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn