I find it funny that, in a thread titled "The Silly Six-Drops Thread", one of, if not the silliest six-drop isn't being discussed - Yosei, the Morning Star. I thought it was widely considered that Yosei was more dangerous than Koku could ever hope to be? I know personally, I'd much rather see those two switch spots than see P-Titan or CS get banned - Sure, those two are powerful, but what are we going to do, cut every single card that somebody gets butt-hurt about?
Personally, I think Yosei should be getting looked at before anyone even thinks of banning Prime Time or CS. Maybe I'm just crazy, but it seems like losing an entire turn, or more often getting combo-locked out of the game, is much worse than anything either of the other two could do.
The difference between Yosei and Sphinx/Prime is that Sphinx and Prime are auto-includes in pretty much any deck that runs their colors. Whereas Yosei requires you to continually recur him meaning you'll pretty much have to run BW to do it consistently. There are tons of creatures that are part of devastating combos. Niv-Mizzet anyone? That doesn't mean they should be banned.
Prime and Sphinx don't require you to splash any other colors or find other combo pieces in order to use them. All you have to do is put them into play.
This I think is also the reason why Kokusho is banned and not any of the other Kamigawa dragons. Its not so much his individual power level, it has more to do with the fact that mono-black can easily abuse its ability, much more so than other colors can abuse their dragons. He'll basically be an auto-include in almost any deck with black.
I find it funny that, in a thread titled "The Silly Six-Drops Thread", one of, if not the silliest six-drop isn't being discussed - Yosei, the Morning Star. I thought it was widely considered that Yosei was more dangerous than Koku could ever hope to be? I know personally, I'd much rather see those two switch spots than see P-Titan or CS get banned - Sure, those two are powerful, but what are we going to do, cut every single card that somebody gets butt-hurt about?
Personally, I think Yosei should be getting looked at before anyone even thinks of banning Prime Time or CS. Maybe I'm just crazy, but it seems like losing an entire turn, or more often getting combo-locked out of the game, is much worse than anything either of the other two could do.
The obvious reason for this is that it is a multiplayer banlist and locking one player out will not win you the game. The logic might not be sound, but that's the reason behind Yosei's exclusion.
Yosei also I don't think can be abused greatly as a general. He sure as hell can with other colors, but then you have to draw him, tutor him and the other pieces, and even then you will be locking out one player.
The obvious reason for this is that it is a multiplayer banlist and locking one player out will not win you the game. The logic might not be sound, but that's the reason behind Yosei's exclusion.
Indeed. Kokusho is so stigmatized by the RC for his ability to scale well in a multiplayer game.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
The difference between Yosei and Sphinx/Prime is that Sphinx and Prime are auto-includes in pretty much any deck that runs their colors. Whereas Yosei requires you to continually recur him meaning you'll pretty much have to run BW to do it consistently. There are tons of creatures that are part of devastating combos. Niv-Mizzet anyone? That doesn't mean they should be banned.
Prime and Sphinx don't require you to splash any other colors or find other combo pieces in order to use them. All you have to do is put them into play.
This I think is also the reason why Kokusho is banned and not any of the other Kamigawa dragons. Its not so much his individual power level, it has more to do with the fact that mono-black can easily abuse its ability, much more so than other colors can abuse their dragons. He'll basically be an auto-include in almost any deck with black.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. White, by itself, has plentyofdifferentways to bring back creatures, all without going out of color. As far as sac engines, landshavethat covered, not to mention artifacts. I've seen almost every deck that has some sort of white in it - even mono-W - playing Yosei, because of how powerful it is. Especially when you can do it 2-3 times a turn to lock out multiple opponents.
I'm sorry, but I would much rather see Niv-Mizzet, or P-Titan, or Kokusho, or Consecrated Sphinx, or pretty much any other creature across the field than a Yosei. But maybe that's just me.
I'd have to disagree since Kukosho as a general shows up more often, and is harder to get rid of, and the whole deck is designed to abuse him. Then I have to disagree because Kukosho kills everyone besides the pilot, while the cards you mentioned just deny resources with a drawback, or deny certain resources, all while drawing hate for it and not winning the game directly. That's the difference and that's why it's banned.
I don't understand this "Kokusho directly kills a player and Primeval Titan/Consecrated Sphinx don't" argument either. Powerful enablers don't directly win games, but they are usually the reason why you managed to approach a winning position. You might have lost to a Genesis Wave for 20+, but that Primeval Titan that allowed you to tutor up the Coffers/Urborg combo in one fell swoop was directly responsible for accelerating you to your finisher of choice. Cards like Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx generate a slippery slope effect by causing you to fall further and further behind due to the fact that tangible resources are created. It's basically what Biomechanika said, Kokusho is only at its best at doing one thing, and that's killing someone. That's nice to have, but because Magic is a resource-driven game, cards like Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx are superior because they simply give you more resources to work with.
It's like in chess, it's foolish to think that you lost a game because you were checkmated on move 66. Sure, you might have technically lost because checkmate physically ends the game, but the real reason you might have lost that game was because you lost material on move 34 (resulting in a losing pawn and king vs. king ending) or your pawn structure was busted on move 25 for example. Those types of events then lead to a similar slippery slope effect that creates the downward spiral to defeat. That's why you'll see concessions in resource-driven games like Magic, chess, and Starcraft rather than playing out the entire game to its technical end. The endgame is pointless if the slippery slope effect becomes to much to overcome because at that point it doesn't matter what you beat your opponent(s) with; only that you've reached a winning position that was caused by previous events earlier in the game.
The whole point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't make much sense to say that Kokusho is bannable because it actually kills someone and Primeval Titan/Consecrated Sphinx don't because all they do is accumulate resources. It's foolish to make an argument like that when Magic is resource-driven in the first place.
Second of all, regarding Kokusho as a general. Is Kokusho really on the same level as the unholy trinity of Braids, Rofellos and Erayo? Definitely not. There are a few common themes that those three generals all share, and Kokusho doesn't exactly possess them. All three of the banned generals are fast. Very, very fast. Rofellos almost always will untap with 6 mana on turn 3 while everyone else is scrambling for a removal spell before the inevitable blowout. Erayo can flip very quickly as well with the assistance of all the fast mana in the format. And Braids can get online very quickly when it has mana rocks to resort to as well for turn 2/3 castings. At 6 mana, Kokusho is fairly slow to get out even with all the acceleration at your disposal. And even when Kokusho is out, what are you going to do? Drain your opponents of life? That's pretty nice, but it still allows your opponents to cast spells and fight back without much resistance. Kokusho, unlike Braids/Rofellos/Erayo, doesn't aim to prevent interaction as fast as possible, and as much as possible. Braids and Erayo literally prevent you from playing Magic once the lock is online, and Rofellos attempts to limit interaction by sheer mana and speed advantage.
Primetime grants lands which accelerates future plays
Sphinx grants card advantage for a more varied amount of plays
Kokopuffs grants life which is considered a valuable resource in EDH
Green gets lands, blue gets cards, black gets life (which powers a great deal of cards in black)
Saying one gives a better advantage over another is wrong to say as it is simply color choice, if I choose to run green I'm going to ramp, if I choose blue I'm sure as heck gonna draw more cards than you, If I run black I plan on spending life to kill you.
Well said Surging Chaos. That's the best summation I've read concerning these three. The slippery slope argument is compelling (technically losing to a Genesis Wave on T12, but actually losing on T5 when the Titan came out to set it up). The chess comparison is also very good. Wait...did you compare Magic to Starcraft too!? Haha.
So yeah like I said before: if cards like Prime Time and C.Sphinx are okay, then Kokusho should also be okay for play. The former does far more than the latter.
it seems to me that the only reason that koko is banned at all is because of it's legendary status. it tends to be less powerful than primeval and sphinx. honestly the worst of the lot is probably prime time. i say this because while sphinx and koko are no doubt powerful, they do not put two permanents into play each trigger. magic games (especially commander) are won with permanents. period. i understand when people talk about prime time in terms of card advantage, but its really permanent advantage. 9/10 games are won by the player with the most permanents on the field. while the card draw from sphinx is busted, it doesnt put them directly into play. with a greaves in play, turn six nets the primeval player 4 permanents advantage. life tends not to be a big issue in games with general damage, (as a lin sivvi player i know better than most) and the drain on your opponents wont win you the game without a combo like caretaker/staff. to be honest, it confounds me to no end why koko is banned other than people are afraid of him as a general. and as a response to all the card draw power of sphinx and blue in general, i have seen a lot of players turn to omen machine. i voted none on the poll, as i want to see koko unbanned so i can run him in my karador spirits.
Second of all, regarding Kokusho as a general. Is Kokusho really on the same level as the unholy trinity of Braids, Rofellos and Erayo? Definitely not. There are a few common themes that those three generals all share, and Kokusho doesn't exactly possess them. All three of the banned generals are fast. Very, very fast. Rofellos almost always will untap with 6 mana on turn 3 while everyone else is scrambling for a removal spell before the inevitable blowout. Erayo can flip very quickly as well with the assistance of all the fast mana in the format. And Braids can get online very quickly when it has mana rocks to resort to as well for turn 2/3 castings. At 6 mana, Kokusho is fairly slow to get out even with all the acceleration at your disposal. And even when Kokusho is out, what are you going to do? Drain your opponents of life? That's pretty nice, but it still allows your opponents to cast spells and fight back without much resistance. Kokusho, unlike Braids/Rofellos/Erayo, doesn't aim to prevent interaction as fast as possible, and as much as possible. Braids and Erayo literally prevent you from playing Magic once the lock is online, and Rofellos attempts to limit interaction by sheer mana and speed advantage.
Honestly, the only reason I see for people saying that Kokusho should stay banned as general is as a method to come to a compromise with the RC:
"If you unban it, then you can still keep it banned as a general".
The truth is, he is nowhere near bannable as a general even. Again, look at Sharuum. That thing is practically broken on a stick and has never been considered for banning. With Kokusho, your strategy is clearly laid out to the table but you are limited to one colour, not to mention that he is expensive.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
The simple answer is to run more answers. Spot removal, counters, bounce.
True--but in the case of Prime Time, the only thing that stops me from getting lands is a counterspell. Which generally means you must play blue. So barring counterspell or perhaps Stifle, I will ALWAYS get something out of the deal. And that something usually ends up winning the game. In my case, Ghave and Damia can both get any combination of Volrath's Stronghold, Gaea's Cradle, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and Cabal Coffers and win pretty quickly thereafter. Or they can choose from like a dozen other lands they may need at the time.
It's not the 6/6 body or the attack trigger, it's the EtB trigger that makes this guy ridiculous.
Honestly, the only reason I see for people saying that Kokusho should stay banned as general is as a method to come to a compromise with the RC:
"If you unban it, then you can still keep it banned as a general".
The truth is, he is nowhere near bannable as a general even. Again, look at Sharuum. That thing is practically broken on a stick and has never been considered for banning. With Kokusho, your strategy is clearly laid out to the table but you are limited to one colour, not to mention that he is expensive.
I look at it more as a first step to fully unbanning it. It's well known that the RC has a hate-on for Kokusho, they won't just outright unban it without seeing that it isn't that bad anymore.
Also, the slippery slope argument doesn't really work to well. Yeah I lost but it's cause that guy played an island. So Islands are overpowered. Or Yeah it was the Banefire for 40 that killed me, but if he didn't get to play that land on turn one he'd have been one mana short and not been able to kill me. Well it's obvious that lands enable the most broken game states so they should be banned. It may be going to an extreme but so is calling for the banning of a card just because it's powerful and not because it's game breaking. Which I'm going to go out on a limb and guess is more or less the point being made with it.
It can be argued with equal footing that because Islands enable a large majority of combos, countermagic, and card advantage they are game warpingly broken. However that would be saying that Blue as a color deserves to be banned. While some people may agree with that sentiment it is by no means game warping, as it is a part of the game that is taken into consideration when designing both blue, and non-blue cards.
As is most of the cards that are actually banned currently are banned with the reason of actually damaging the game state and enabling genuinely degenerate gamestates. The only real exceptions to that being Kokusho and to a lesser extent Coalition Victory. Sadly this isn't an "Unban Coalition Victory" thread so that's an argument for a different day, no matter how much I want to make Shyft a valid card. It can be argued rather successfully that Sol Ring is to powerful for it's cost to be a balanced card and that it enables degenerate plays. And honestly I'd agree that 1 for 2 every turn enables some really big plays. It also enables the ability to not feel completely mana screwed early game. There's been some games I didn't scoop turn 4 only because I was keeping up with the board's mana curve because of Sol Ring. But I'm getting a little off topic. To say a card deserves a ban because it's good is rather laughable because of the very same slippery slope argument. Primeval Titan is banned, but what about Grave Titan? How about Force of Will? Genesis Wave? Defense of the Heart? Martial Coup? Craw Wurm? Yeah ban what's good and something else will rise to fill it's throne. Ban that and you get another contender rising. Eventually there won't even be Craw Wurms or Greatswords anymore. And I for one do not support a future for magic where players can't even turn their Craw Wurms sideways anymore for fear of the card being the next "To powerful so it's banned" contender.
Through me the way to the suffering city; Through me the everlasting pain; Through me the way that runs among the Lost. Justice urged on my exalted Creator: Divine Power made me, The Supreme Wisdom and the Primal Love. Nothing was made before me but eternal things And I endure eternally. Abandon all hope - You Who Enter Here.
I personally feel that all of these are exceptionally good cards, but not broken or in need of banning. Yes, I groan when I see Primetime hit the table, but he eats removal and counters. If people are running appropriate "answers" to these creatures (which are easily killed/removed/stopped), then there's not a huge problem.
I am kind of amazed at [...] the fact that somebody on this thread called Mind's Eye, Mirari's Wake, Decree of Pain, Desertion, AND Scroll Rack, all before they were officially spoiled. I will edit this post VERY shortly with the username of this user who deserves at least all of the cookies. Probably more cookies than that.
It's basically what Biomechanika said, Kokusho is only at its best at doing one thing, and that's killing someone.
It's not just that, either, because the life drain effect is symmetrical. I could understand a case where Kokusho drained life from only one player, because then you'd be shutting someone out of the game, without simultaneously killing the table and going onto game two. Fortunately, Kokusho effects everyone at once, so the game can end, and nobody feels left out. Primeval and Consecrated Sphinx don't offer this luxury.
The argument for Kokusho remaining banned is because the game centralizes around Kokusho, degenerating the game in a negative way. We've already covered how both Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx also do exactly that, but worse, because they directly impact the experience for the players who aren't hyper-ramping or drowning in card advantage. Then the sub-argument is because Kokusho gets recurred multiple times in a game, but if losing life is such a problem, why is Magister Sphinx not banned because it can be recurred just as easily? Is there any significant difference in recurring Kokusho three times to drain 15 from everyone, than it is to recur Magister Sphinx three times and set everyone to 10? If the answer was then because one player's resources are ahead of the others, then guess what we just established about Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx?
I could say that the time for talk is over, but we've tried that before. I could say that we need to discuss this directly with the RC, but they already know exactly how we feel. We've been spinning our wheels for a long time now, with no end in sight. The only solution to this problem; the best we're ever going to get, is organizing with your individual playgroup and unbanning Kokusho yourselves. That's all we can do.
Fortunately, my playgroup should have no problem with it. Most of us are casual enough about it, and I'm sure the few hyper-competitive players we have won't mind. We can work out the details.
@ Biomechanika, plently of games revolve around a general but so what? That argument hardly counts against him.
As already stated Kokusho's general plan does not revolve around gaining any advantage, his plan is linear and doesn't net any advantage. All the other generals that are banned gain silly amounts of advantage or lock down on turn 3.
Kokusho's ban is silly. I didn't use to think so but after reading the arguments about the lack of advantage he provides i'd agree that his banning is unwarranted. In a 4 player game getting a Lava Axe to the face may be annoying but so what? I think it has more to do with the pyschocigal shock of a player jumping 15 life and the perception that they must be winning because of it. Kokusho's stratergy is one of minor life drain and mega life gain. How threatening has life gain every been to you? Have you lost a game to it? I never have. How serious a threat is life drain? The archtype exists. I have seen 0 people play it.
Unbanning Kokusho might make monoblack lifedrain/gain a little more viable but i'm perfectly happy to roll against a stratergy that doesn't effect my board or hand any day. Complaining about lifegain/drain is a irrevlent in a format with multiple axes of attack. Games usally get closed by Avenger of Zendikar, Genesis Wave, Combo or General Damage (not to mention Posion). 100+ Life won't stop any of these.
Amongst the first lessons taught to newbies is: Howling Mine is not good, Lifegain is crap and life is a resouce to be invested over the course of a game. If i have to take 25 damage to rip Reanimate, Zombify, Makeshift Maniquen, Renimate Dead , Exhumne out of sombodies hand i will gladly take the hits. Just like i will gladly take a Twincast, Browbeat to face on 20 life (wiping the smirk off that players face was satisfying). He wasted two cards and gained nothing. He is a player that would of let somebody draw 6 thinking he was doing the right thing. That is why i won. The choice should be obvious when it comes to "i loose life but gain advantage and he gains life but losses advantage"
Compare KO with the other offenders on this list. What you you rather someone Reanimate: Kousho, PrimeTime or Sphinx? What would rather someone raise multiple times in one sitting or over the course of a game?
Given up magic because a)its a waste of money b)it sucks the joy out of life c)im doing more interesting things than tapping pieces of plastic that have no intrinsic value.
I encourage you to do the same. Instead of FNM try Friday Night Something Spontaneous. Instead of thousands of hours and dollars on plastic imagine it with a significant other or friends sharing something meaningful. I randomly typed a new password, so bon voyage itches i encourage you to follow suit! Cheers
What are all your metagames like? How do you all win? Lifegain doesn't have the impact it does in any other format, but there's no way you should value it as lowly as you all do. Find some friends with aggro decks.
Along that vein, 5 life is quite a chunk. It's not like we actually start at 40 life because you have to expect fetches, Sylvan Library, and Phyrexian Arena across any game.
I can't see a world where any game doesn't devolve into getting Big K out and abusing that ability (since that's what I so often see whenever we keep Prime Time or CS in our decks).
What are all your metagames like? How do you all win? Lifegain doesn't have the impact it does in any other format, but there's no way you should value it as lowly as you all do. Find some friends with aggro decks.
Along that vein, 5 life is quite a chunk. It's not like we actually start at 40 life because you have to expect fetches, Sylvan Library, and Phyrexian Arena across any game.
I can't see a world where any game doesn't devolve into getting Big K out and abusing that ability (since that's what I so often see whenever we keep Prime Time or CS in our decks).
Problem is that lifegain doesn't have the same impact in the format as other formats because general damage exists. This warps intented impact of card's designs like nobodies business....more so than even cards like Magister Sphinx, Feldigar Sovreign, etc, etc have been warped because an inherent mechanic of the format is essencially being changed.
Granted, some pretty sick shenagigins can be done with lifegain....probably why general damage was put in place in the first place. But alot has happened since and alot of new sets have been released. Now, a number of infinite combos can ping or aggro assault that infinite life away. Magister and Sorin are two cards in themselves that can deal with a pesky lifegain strategy. There's also the poison route which can easily nullify any amount of lifegain.
Our meta doesn't use general damage. We've had towering games where players had over 200hp and you know what it amounted to? Not as much as you would think. 200hp fades pretty quick against 500 1/1 soldiers. Also, Voltron generals still have validity on the field. Granted, you generally won't be swinging only twice to kill a guy; but 3 or 4 times will get it through. Does this make combo too strong? Maybe....our meta doesn't use much combo, so I can't speak to that; but aggro and control seem to be quite balanced.
In any case, I'm not trying to change the format here; I don't expect general damage to disappear just on my words, but try it out and you may find the format better for it.
Primetime grants lands which accelerates future plays
Sphinx grants card advantage for a more varied amount of plays
Kokopuffs grants life which is considered a valuable resource in EDH
Green gets lands, blue gets cards, black gets life (which powers a great deal of cards in black)
Saying one gives a better advantage over another is wrong to say as it is simply color choice, if I choose to run green I'm going to ramp, if I choose blue I'm sure as heck gonna draw more cards than you, If I run black I plan on spending life to kill you.
I guess I should have been more specific when I said "resources". Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx generate tangible resources that directly affect your ability to play the game. Cards and mana are the bread and butter that actually let you play Magic. They are equivalent to pawns/pieces in chess or units in Starcraft. Conversely, life isn't a tangible resource because it doesn't really affect your ability to play like having extra mana and cards do. That's why life gain and life loss don't generate slippery slope effects. All they do is cause you to come closer to losing.
I look at it more as a first step to fully unbanning it. It's well known that the RC has a hate-on for Kokusho, they won't just outright unban it without seeing that it isn't that bad anymore.
Also, the slippery slope argument doesn't really work to well. Yeah I lost but it's cause that guy played an island. So Islands are overpowered. Or Yeah it was the Banefire for 40 that killed me, but if he didn't get to play that land on turn one he'd have been one mana short and not been able to kill me. Well it's obvious that lands enable the most broken game states so they should be banned. It may be going to an extreme but so is calling for the banning of a card just because it's powerful and not because it's game breaking. Which I'm going to go out on a limb and guess is more or less the point being made with it.
It can be argued with equal footing that because Islands enable a large majority of combos, countermagic, and card advantage they are game warpingly broken. However that would be saying that Blue as a color deserves to be banned. While some people may agree with that sentiment it is by no means game warping, as it is a part of the game that is taken into consideration when designing both blue, and non-blue cards.
As is most of the cards that are actually banned currently are banned with the reason of actually damaging the game state and enabling genuinely degenerate gamestates. The only real exceptions to that being Kokusho and to a lesser extent Coalition Victory. Sadly this isn't an "Unban Coalition Victory" thread so that's an argument for a different day, no matter how much I want to make Shyft a valid card. It can be argued rather successfully that Sol Ring is to powerful for it's cost to be a balanced card and that it enables degenerate plays. And honestly I'd agree that 1 for 2 every turn enables some really big plays. It also enables the ability to not feel completely mana screwed early game. There's been some games I didn't scoop turn 4 only because I was keeping up with the board's mana curve because of Sol Ring. But I'm getting a little off topic. To say a card deserves a ban because it's good is rather laughable because of the very same slippery slope argument. Primeval Titan is banned, but what about Grave Titan? How about Force of Will? Genesis Wave? Defense of the Heart? Martial Coup? Craw Wurm? Yeah ban what's good and something else will rise to fill it's throne. Ban that and you get another contender rising. Eventually there won't even be Craw Wurms or Greatswords anymore. And I for one do not support a future for magic where players can't even turn their Craw Wurms sideways anymore for fear of the card being the next "To powerful so it's banned" contender.
Wait... what? Since when does dropping an Island create a slippery slope effect? I think you need to understand the concept of resource generation and denial to understand what I really mean by the slippery slope effect that is created by constant tangible resource creation that Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx provide. When you are able to continually create such a resource advantage, you put yourself in a huge advantage. This is exactly why many R&D members have said they try to be very careful with effects that keep repeating themselves because they have a huge tendency to let you run away with a game if left unchecked for a short time.
Speaking of slippery slope, your second part of your post talks about a different type of slippery slope that is something completely different from what I was talking about in the first place. I have never said I wanted Primeval Titan and/or Consecrated Sphinx banned. I voted "none of them" on this thread and despite how powerful the two creatures are I'd rather see them legal. For consistency's sake though, Kokusho should be unbanned. That has been my argument ever since the beginning.
I guess I should have been more specific when I said "resources". Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx generate tangible resources that directly affect your ability to play the game. Cards and mana are the bread and butter that actually let you play Magic. They are equivalent to pawns/pieces in chess or units in Starcraft. Conversely, life isn't a tangible resource because it doesn't really affect your ability to play like having extra mana and cards do. That's why life gain and life loss don't generate slippery slope effects. All they do is cause you to come closer to losing.
Wait... what? Since when does dropping an Island create a slippery slope effect? I think you need to understand the concept of resource generation and denial to understand what I really mean by the slippery slope effect that is created by constant tangible resource creation that Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx provide. When you are able to continually create such a resource advantage, you put yourself in a huge advantage. This is exactly why many R&D members have said they try to be very careful with effects that keep repeating themselves because they have a huge tendency to let you run away with a game if left unchecked for a short time.
Speaking of slippery slope, your second part of your post talks about a different type of slippery slope that is something completely different from what I was talking about in the first place. I have never said I wanted Primeval Titan and/or Consecrated Sphinx banned. I voted "none of them" on this thread and despite how powerful the two creatures are I'd rather see them legal. For consistency's sake though, Kokusho should be unbanned. That has been my argument ever since the beginning.
I was more pointing out the fallacy of saying either of them needing to be banned than anything else. Saying an island is broken because it enables blue magic is just as ludicrous as saying Primeval Titan is broken because it enables massive mana ramp. That was the point I was trying to get across. To be blunt I think it's laughable that people consider any of the three cards at focus here to be deserving of a ban. Just as I think it's a funny joke that saying Island is the most powerful card in magic. The two concepts to me are on the same level. I agree completely that Kokusho is a card that is in no way broken or degenerate or even overpowered. I can Rite of Replication kicked a primeval titan and generate insane mana ramp, I can Clone a Consecrated Sphinx and draw stupid numbers of cards, or even recur Kokusho every turn and have massive impact on the gamestate, but that isn't really broken they all require multiple things to be happening before things begin to really get silly. Primeval Titan has the excuse of every turn 2 extra lands. If it lives. I've never once seen him last more than 2-3 turns. Consecrated Sphinx in a multiplayer environment has the benefit of draw 2 per opponent. That can be very powerful, and the fact that it's blue, the king of control magic, certainly puts it in a very powerful position. Then again even drawing two extra cards per person you just made everyone at the table start gunning for you, you will run out of ammo before 2-4 other people do. Things that are genuinely degenerate are the only things that belong on a ban list. Rofellos, Erayo, Metal Worker, and Painters Servant, in the card pool they have, with the rules handed down to go with them are all degenerate cards that enable truly degenerate gamestates. Kokusho, Primeval Titan, and Consecrated Sphinx do not. The local group I play in in fact has all agreed to make Kokusho 100% legal to play to test him and see how much impact he actually makes. While that doesn't mean much to the overall meta it will be an interesting study regardless.
As for the second part, yes it is a different type of slippery slope, but it's also a valid one in this case. If cards start getting banned because they're good rather than because they're broken where is the line drawn? What becomes the guideline and how long until that isn't good enough anymore and more cards get banned because they're now the good cards. As long as we've had all three cards the only one who's actually ever proven to be format warping was Kokusho. And that wasn't recently. There's been a massive increase in the number of people who play EDH, and the number of different decks and strategies. At one time Kokusho was indeed format warping, I don't really see how he is anymore. Just like I'm sure at one point in EDH's lifespan Worldgorger Dragon was game warping, again he's not so much of a threat anymore, and was rightfully unbanned. Would I want to see Gorger unbanned in any other format it's banned in? No not at all, not with the consistency and lack of multiple players that other formats have. I'm all for keeping banned lists as short as feasibly possible. Tossing in cards as new as Consecrated Sphinx seems like it's a really knee-jerk reaction. Primeval Titan is getting close to the point that a final decision could reasonably be made, and I just can't see any reason to actually ban it.
Anyway what I'm getting at here is simple. Resource generation is important, and it does win games. Just like not fielding answers for threats loses games. Being a creature gives each added longevity, and potential for more uses, it also gives more weakness and potential for it to be used against you. Is Primeval Titan a high ranking target for theft spells and abilities? Of course, so is anything with a strong ability. Is it always the best choice? Not every time. With the mana cost of each, the singleton format, the high probability of at least a couple people playing having an answer and none of them having a good way of outright winning you the game they just aren't overpowered to the point of needing bans. Protean Hulk wins before anyone can do anything about it. Rofellos builds to much to fast to be able to reliably deal with it. Erayo permanently locks the board down very early in game or at least slows it immensely until it can lock down. Emrakul hits play and effectively removes a play from the game in many cases just because it came into play with almost no means of answering it. Metalworker ramps out mana faster than Primeval Titan can by leaps and bounds. Painter's Servant is only useful for comboing into a degenerate gamestate and it does so cheaply. Braids enables a lock down incredibly early in game, and honestly would be the only thing other than Kokusho in the banned creature list that I could understand maybe being unbanned. All of these creatures are banned and with good reason though. The Silly 6 drops just aren't in the same league.
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I run two decks that abuse the heck out of both consecrated sphinx and primeval titan, and I am the player that has the biggest target on my head anytime we play EDH... because I tend to break the format.
These two cards allow things that are not fun... my favorite is finding a way of giving a consecrated sphinx to another player, then cloning it. Everyone thinks it is all fun, until we start infinite drawing, and I infinite combo on someone else turn with leyline of anticipation.
The thing is that the reality is any card can be broken, and in my groups consecrated sphinx is just a opportunity on a body. If no one takes care of it (board wipes are common) then I normally combo off a turn or two later. The better the group the less of a problem with it...
Or you have the game where everyone ends up with 3 - 4 of them am lets say thank god there is a judge at the table...
As for primeval titan, once it hits the table I better have a way to win quick, because the table is going to kill me right away. Of course if you are going to play those cards, then I would fully expect to have it taken. It is kind of like Iona, I play it, and do not complain when I am locked down by it.
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I don't want to derail from the current discussion but has anybody noticed that in the poll, of all the available options the one that is currently in effect (Kokusho as the only banned card) received only 8% of the votes?
I mean when I saw this thread for the first time I was sure there would be some unban Kokusho votes and of course people who don't want anything to change might just be too lazy to vote but come on only 8% for keeping the banlist as it is?
You should note that after the option of unbanning all three, that's the most highly-rated option.
It's also worth noting that if you tally up the votes for/against the banning of each card, the most people are in favor of banning Consecrated Sphinx, and the least people are in favor of banning Kokusho.
The difference between Yosei and Sphinx/Prime is that Sphinx and Prime are auto-includes in pretty much any deck that runs their colors. Whereas Yosei requires you to continually recur him meaning you'll pretty much have to run BW to do it consistently. There are tons of creatures that are part of devastating combos. Niv-Mizzet anyone? That doesn't mean they should be banned.
Prime and Sphinx don't require you to splash any other colors or find other combo pieces in order to use them. All you have to do is put them into play.
This I think is also the reason why Kokusho is banned and not any of the other Kamigawa dragons. Its not so much his individual power level, it has more to do with the fact that mono-black can easily abuse its ability, much more so than other colors can abuse their dragons. He'll basically be an auto-include in almost any deck with black.
The obvious reason for this is that it is a multiplayer banlist and locking one player out will not win you the game. The logic might not be sound, but that's the reason behind Yosei's exclusion.
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Indeed. Kokusho is so stigmatized by the RC for his ability to scale well in a multiplayer game.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. White, by itself, has plenty of different ways to bring back creatures, all without going out of color. As far as sac engines, lands have that covered, not to mention artifacts. I've seen almost every deck that has some sort of white in it - even mono-W - playing Yosei, because of how powerful it is. Especially when you can do it 2-3 times a turn to lock out multiple opponents.
I'm sorry, but I would much rather see Niv-Mizzet, or P-Titan, or Kokusho, or Consecrated Sphinx, or pretty much any other creature across the field than a Yosei. But maybe that's just me.
I don't understand this "Kokusho directly kills a player and Primeval Titan/Consecrated Sphinx don't" argument either. Powerful enablers don't directly win games, but they are usually the reason why you managed to approach a winning position. You might have lost to a Genesis Wave for 20+, but that Primeval Titan that allowed you to tutor up the Coffers/Urborg combo in one fell swoop was directly responsible for accelerating you to your finisher of choice. Cards like Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx generate a slippery slope effect by causing you to fall further and further behind due to the fact that tangible resources are created. It's basically what Biomechanika said, Kokusho is only at its best at doing one thing, and that's killing someone. That's nice to have, but because Magic is a resource-driven game, cards like Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx are superior because they simply give you more resources to work with.
It's like in chess, it's foolish to think that you lost a game because you were checkmated on move 66. Sure, you might have technically lost because checkmate physically ends the game, but the real reason you might have lost that game was because you lost material on move 34 (resulting in a losing pawn and king vs. king ending) or your pawn structure was busted on move 25 for example. Those types of events then lead to a similar slippery slope effect that creates the downward spiral to defeat. That's why you'll see concessions in resource-driven games like Magic, chess, and Starcraft rather than playing out the entire game to its technical end. The endgame is pointless if the slippery slope effect becomes to much to overcome because at that point it doesn't matter what you beat your opponent(s) with; only that you've reached a winning position that was caused by previous events earlier in the game.
The whole point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't make much sense to say that Kokusho is bannable because it actually kills someone and Primeval Titan/Consecrated Sphinx don't because all they do is accumulate resources. It's foolish to make an argument like that when Magic is resource-driven in the first place.
Second of all, regarding Kokusho as a general. Is Kokusho really on the same level as the unholy trinity of Braids, Rofellos and Erayo? Definitely not. There are a few common themes that those three generals all share, and Kokusho doesn't exactly possess them. All three of the banned generals are fast. Very, very fast. Rofellos almost always will untap with 6 mana on turn 3 while everyone else is scrambling for a removal spell before the inevitable blowout. Erayo can flip very quickly as well with the assistance of all the fast mana in the format. And Braids can get online very quickly when it has mana rocks to resort to as well for turn 2/3 castings. At 6 mana, Kokusho is fairly slow to get out even with all the acceleration at your disposal. And even when Kokusho is out, what are you going to do? Drain your opponents of life? That's pretty nice, but it still allows your opponents to cast spells and fight back without much resistance. Kokusho, unlike Braids/Rofellos/Erayo, doesn't aim to prevent interaction as fast as possible, and as much as possible. Braids and Erayo literally prevent you from playing Magic once the lock is online, and Rofellos attempts to limit interaction by sheer mana and speed advantage.
Primetime grants lands which accelerates future plays
Sphinx grants card advantage for a more varied amount of plays
Kokopuffs grants life which is considered a valuable resource in EDH
Green gets lands, blue gets cards, black gets life (which powers a great deal of cards in black)
Saying one gives a better advantage over another is wrong to say as it is simply color choice, if I choose to run green I'm going to ramp, if I choose blue I'm sure as heck gonna draw more cards than you, If I run black I plan on spending life to kill you.
So yeah like I said before: if cards like Prime Time and C.Sphinx are okay, then Kokusho should also be okay for play. The former does far more than the latter.
Honestly, the only reason I see for people saying that Kokusho should stay banned as general is as a method to come to a compromise with the RC:
"If you unban it, then you can still keep it banned as a general".
The truth is, he is nowhere near bannable as a general even. Again, look at Sharuum. That thing is practically broken on a stick and has never been considered for banning. With Kokusho, your strategy is clearly laid out to the table but you are limited to one colour, not to mention that he is expensive.
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True--but in the case of Prime Time, the only thing that stops me from getting lands is a counterspell. Which generally means you must play blue. So barring counterspell or perhaps Stifle, I will ALWAYS get something out of the deal. And that something usually ends up winning the game. In my case, Ghave and Damia can both get any combination of Volrath's Stronghold, Gaea's Cradle, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and Cabal Coffers and win pretty quickly thereafter. Or they can choose from like a dozen other lands they may need at the time.
It's not the 6/6 body or the attack trigger, it's the EtB trigger that makes this guy ridiculous.
I look at it more as a first step to fully unbanning it. It's well known that the RC has a hate-on for Kokusho, they won't just outright unban it without seeing that it isn't that bad anymore.
Also, the slippery slope argument doesn't really work to well. Yeah I lost but it's cause that guy played an island. So Islands are overpowered. Or Yeah it was the Banefire for 40 that killed me, but if he didn't get to play that land on turn one he'd have been one mana short and not been able to kill me. Well it's obvious that lands enable the most broken game states so they should be banned. It may be going to an extreme but so is calling for the banning of a card just because it's powerful and not because it's game breaking. Which I'm going to go out on a limb and guess is more or less the point being made with it.
It can be argued with equal footing that because Islands enable a large majority of combos, countermagic, and card advantage they are game warpingly broken. However that would be saying that Blue as a color deserves to be banned. While some people may agree with that sentiment it is by no means game warping, as it is a part of the game that is taken into consideration when designing both blue, and non-blue cards.
As is most of the cards that are actually banned currently are banned with the reason of actually damaging the game state and enabling genuinely degenerate gamestates. The only real exceptions to that being Kokusho and to a lesser extent Coalition Victory. Sadly this isn't an "Unban Coalition Victory" thread so that's an argument for a different day, no matter how much I want to make Shyft a valid card. It can be argued rather successfully that Sol Ring is to powerful for it's cost to be a balanced card and that it enables degenerate plays. And honestly I'd agree that 1 for 2 every turn enables some really big plays. It also enables the ability to not feel completely mana screwed early game. There's been some games I didn't scoop turn 4 only because I was keeping up with the board's mana curve because of Sol Ring. But I'm getting a little off topic. To say a card deserves a ban because it's good is rather laughable because of the very same slippery slope argument. Primeval Titan is banned, but what about Grave Titan? How about Force of Will? Genesis Wave? Defense of the Heart? Martial Coup? Craw Wurm? Yeah ban what's good and something else will rise to fill it's throne. Ban that and you get another contender rising. Eventually there won't even be Craw Wurms or Greatswords anymore. And I for one do not support a future for magic where players can't even turn their Craw Wurms sideways anymore for fear of the card being the next "To powerful so it's banned" contender.
Hog wash! Back that statement up. I swear if Sheldon gave a reasonable explanation for kokusho's banning no one would haye him.
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It's not just that, either, because the life drain effect is symmetrical. I could understand a case where Kokusho drained life from only one player, because then you'd be shutting someone out of the game, without simultaneously killing the table and going onto game two. Fortunately, Kokusho effects everyone at once, so the game can end, and nobody feels left out. Primeval and Consecrated Sphinx don't offer this luxury.
The argument for Kokusho remaining banned is because the game centralizes around Kokusho, degenerating the game in a negative way. We've already covered how both Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx also do exactly that, but worse, because they directly impact the experience for the players who aren't hyper-ramping or drowning in card advantage. Then the sub-argument is because Kokusho gets recurred multiple times in a game, but if losing life is such a problem, why is Magister Sphinx not banned because it can be recurred just as easily? Is there any significant difference in recurring Kokusho three times to drain 15 from everyone, than it is to recur Magister Sphinx three times and set everyone to 10? If the answer was then because one player's resources are ahead of the others, then guess what we just established about Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx?
I could say that the time for talk is over, but we've tried that before. I could say that we need to discuss this directly with the RC, but they already know exactly how we feel. We've been spinning our wheels for a long time now, with no end in sight. The only solution to this problem; the best we're ever going to get, is organizing with your individual playgroup and unbanning Kokusho yourselves. That's all we can do.
Fortunately, my playgroup should have no problem with it. Most of us are casual enough about it, and I'm sure the few hyper-competitive players we have won't mind. We can work out the details.
As already stated Kokusho's general plan does not revolve around gaining any advantage, his plan is linear and doesn't net any advantage. All the other generals that are banned gain silly amounts of advantage or lock down on turn 3.
Kokusho's ban is silly. I didn't use to think so but after reading the arguments about the lack of advantage he provides i'd agree that his banning is unwarranted. In a 4 player game getting a Lava Axe to the face may be annoying but so what? I think it has more to do with the pyschocigal shock of a player jumping 15 life and the perception that they must be winning because of it. Kokusho's stratergy is one of minor life drain and mega life gain. How threatening has life gain every been to you? Have you lost a game to it? I never have. How serious a threat is life drain? The archtype exists. I have seen 0 people play it.
Unbanning Kokusho might make monoblack lifedrain/gain a little more viable but i'm perfectly happy to roll against a stratergy that doesn't effect my board or hand any day. Complaining about lifegain/drain is a irrevlent in a format with multiple axes of attack. Games usally get closed by Avenger of Zendikar, Genesis Wave, Combo or General Damage (not to mention Posion). 100+ Life won't stop any of these.
Amongst the first lessons taught to newbies is: Howling Mine is not good, Lifegain is crap and life is a resouce to be invested over the course of a game. If i have to take 25 damage to rip Reanimate, Zombify, Makeshift Maniquen, Renimate Dead , Exhumne out of sombodies hand i will gladly take the hits. Just like i will gladly take a Twincast, Browbeat to face on 20 life (wiping the smirk off that players face was satisfying). He wasted two cards and gained nothing. He is a player that would of let somebody draw 6 thinking he was doing the right thing. That is why i won. The choice should be obvious when it comes to "i loose life but gain advantage and he gains life but losses advantage"
Compare KO with the other offenders on this list. What you you rather someone Reanimate: Kousho, PrimeTime or Sphinx? What would rather someone raise multiple times in one sitting or over the course of a game?
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Along that vein, 5 life is quite a chunk. It's not like we actually start at 40 life because you have to expect fetches, Sylvan Library, and Phyrexian Arena across any game.
I can't see a world where any game doesn't devolve into getting Big K out and abusing that ability (since that's what I so often see whenever we keep Prime Time or CS in our decks).
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Problem is that lifegain doesn't have the same impact in the format as other formats because general damage exists. This warps intented impact of card's designs like nobodies business....more so than even cards like Magister Sphinx, Feldigar Sovreign, etc, etc have been warped because an inherent mechanic of the format is essencially being changed.
Granted, some pretty sick shenagigins can be done with lifegain....probably why general damage was put in place in the first place. But alot has happened since and alot of new sets have been released. Now, a number of infinite combos can ping or aggro assault that infinite life away. Magister and Sorin are two cards in themselves that can deal with a pesky lifegain strategy. There's also the poison route which can easily nullify any amount of lifegain.
Our meta doesn't use general damage. We've had towering games where players had over 200hp and you know what it amounted to? Not as much as you would think. 200hp fades pretty quick against 500 1/1 soldiers. Also, Voltron generals still have validity on the field. Granted, you generally won't be swinging only twice to kill a guy; but 3 or 4 times will get it through. Does this make combo too strong? Maybe....our meta doesn't use much combo, so I can't speak to that; but aggro and control seem to be quite balanced.
In any case, I'm not trying to change the format here; I don't expect general damage to disappear just on my words, but try it out and you may find the format better for it.
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I guess I should have been more specific when I said "resources". Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx generate tangible resources that directly affect your ability to play the game. Cards and mana are the bread and butter that actually let you play Magic. They are equivalent to pawns/pieces in chess or units in Starcraft. Conversely, life isn't a tangible resource because it doesn't really affect your ability to play like having extra mana and cards do. That's why life gain and life loss don't generate slippery slope effects. All they do is cause you to come closer to losing.
Wait... what? Since when does dropping an Island create a slippery slope effect? I think you need to understand the concept of resource generation and denial to understand what I really mean by the slippery slope effect that is created by constant tangible resource creation that Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx provide. When you are able to continually create such a resource advantage, you put yourself in a huge advantage. This is exactly why many R&D members have said they try to be very careful with effects that keep repeating themselves because they have a huge tendency to let you run away with a game if left unchecked for a short time.
Speaking of slippery slope, your second part of your post talks about a different type of slippery slope that is something completely different from what I was talking about in the first place. I have never said I wanted Primeval Titan and/or Consecrated Sphinx banned. I voted "none of them" on this thread and despite how powerful the two creatures are I'd rather see them legal. For consistency's sake though, Kokusho should be unbanned. That has been my argument ever since the beginning.
I was more pointing out the fallacy of saying either of them needing to be banned than anything else. Saying an island is broken because it enables blue magic is just as ludicrous as saying Primeval Titan is broken because it enables massive mana ramp. That was the point I was trying to get across. To be blunt I think it's laughable that people consider any of the three cards at focus here to be deserving of a ban. Just as I think it's a funny joke that saying Island is the most powerful card in magic. The two concepts to me are on the same level. I agree completely that Kokusho is a card that is in no way broken or degenerate or even overpowered. I can Rite of Replication kicked a primeval titan and generate insane mana ramp, I can Clone a Consecrated Sphinx and draw stupid numbers of cards, or even recur Kokusho every turn and have massive impact on the gamestate, but that isn't really broken they all require multiple things to be happening before things begin to really get silly. Primeval Titan has the excuse of every turn 2 extra lands. If it lives. I've never once seen him last more than 2-3 turns. Consecrated Sphinx in a multiplayer environment has the benefit of draw 2 per opponent. That can be very powerful, and the fact that it's blue, the king of control magic, certainly puts it in a very powerful position. Then again even drawing two extra cards per person you just made everyone at the table start gunning for you, you will run out of ammo before 2-4 other people do. Things that are genuinely degenerate are the only things that belong on a ban list. Rofellos, Erayo, Metal Worker, and Painters Servant, in the card pool they have, with the rules handed down to go with them are all degenerate cards that enable truly degenerate gamestates. Kokusho, Primeval Titan, and Consecrated Sphinx do not. The local group I play in in fact has all agreed to make Kokusho 100% legal to play to test him and see how much impact he actually makes. While that doesn't mean much to the overall meta it will be an interesting study regardless.
As for the second part, yes it is a different type of slippery slope, but it's also a valid one in this case. If cards start getting banned because they're good rather than because they're broken where is the line drawn? What becomes the guideline and how long until that isn't good enough anymore and more cards get banned because they're now the good cards. As long as we've had all three cards the only one who's actually ever proven to be format warping was Kokusho. And that wasn't recently. There's been a massive increase in the number of people who play EDH, and the number of different decks and strategies. At one time Kokusho was indeed format warping, I don't really see how he is anymore. Just like I'm sure at one point in EDH's lifespan Worldgorger Dragon was game warping, again he's not so much of a threat anymore, and was rightfully unbanned. Would I want to see Gorger unbanned in any other format it's banned in? No not at all, not with the consistency and lack of multiple players that other formats have. I'm all for keeping banned lists as short as feasibly possible. Tossing in cards as new as Consecrated Sphinx seems like it's a really knee-jerk reaction. Primeval Titan is getting close to the point that a final decision could reasonably be made, and I just can't see any reason to actually ban it.
Anyway what I'm getting at here is simple. Resource generation is important, and it does win games. Just like not fielding answers for threats loses games. Being a creature gives each added longevity, and potential for more uses, it also gives more weakness and potential for it to be used against you. Is Primeval Titan a high ranking target for theft spells and abilities? Of course, so is anything with a strong ability. Is it always the best choice? Not every time. With the mana cost of each, the singleton format, the high probability of at least a couple people playing having an answer and none of them having a good way of outright winning you the game they just aren't overpowered to the point of needing bans. Protean Hulk wins before anyone can do anything about it. Rofellos builds to much to fast to be able to reliably deal with it. Erayo permanently locks the board down very early in game or at least slows it immensely until it can lock down. Emrakul hits play and effectively removes a play from the game in many cases just because it came into play with almost no means of answering it. Metalworker ramps out mana faster than Primeval Titan can by leaps and bounds. Painter's Servant is only useful for comboing into a degenerate gamestate and it does so cheaply. Braids enables a lock down incredibly early in game, and honestly would be the only thing other than Kokusho in the banned creature list that I could understand maybe being unbanned. All of these creatures are banned and with good reason though. The Silly 6 drops just aren't in the same league.
These two cards allow things that are not fun... my favorite is finding a way of giving a consecrated sphinx to another player, then cloning it. Everyone thinks it is all fun, until we start infinite drawing, and I infinite combo on someone else turn with leyline of anticipation.
The thing is that the reality is any card can be broken, and in my groups consecrated sphinx is just a opportunity on a body. If no one takes care of it (board wipes are common) then I normally combo off a turn or two later. The better the group the less of a problem with it...
Or you have the game where everyone ends up with 3 - 4 of them am lets say thank god there is a judge at the table...
As for primeval titan, once it hits the table I better have a way to win quick, because the table is going to kill me right away. Of course if you are going to play those cards, then I would fully expect to have it taken. It is kind of like Iona, I play it, and do not complain when I am locked down by it.
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You should note that after the option of unbanning all three, that's the most highly-rated option.
It's also worth noting that if you tally up the votes for/against the banning of each card, the most people are in favor of banning Consecrated Sphinx, and the least people are in favor of banning Kokusho.
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I don't think that this would be relevant given that the difference is only by one vote