So, this started as a rant in another thread about how condemn pretty much has no text on it in EDH. (How the card deals only with generals who win by attacking, have no ETB ability, and attack unprotected.)
It got me thinking, why did people consider condemn a staple in the early days of multiplayer EDH? Is it because it is efficiently costed? Advancing your game plan while leaving up one mana is kind of nice. But is that worth the horrible condition of letting your opponent untap with their threat?
Condemn's popularity is more likely because of it's ability to "tuck" a creature, especially a general, into the library. The assumption here is that decks that attack with their generals will have to go to a much worse plan B with their general in their library, and lose.
Here are some of the problems with valuing tucking too highly in EDH, when choosing your spell slots.
1.) Tempo is king. The nastiest decks in EDH can close out a game regularly on turn six, through disruption. Even if your meta is not this way, you want to make sure that you're at least operating at the same tempo as your group. What this means is... if you're as fast as your opponent, and their general goes back to the command zone, you'll probably win without having needed to tuck it.
Most generals that care about their commander being tucked aren't going to be too pleased with having to pay 2 more mana for it. Rafiq doesn't want to go on the warpath at six mana.
In your metagame, you should be able to become the aggressor before a General-Oriented deck can recast their guy. If they don't mind you countering their general and switch immediately to a plan B, guess what, you weren't facing a deck that cared about tucking after all.
Let's assume you're playing against an EDH deck you consider to be as good as yours, and their plan is their general. If you cast Remand on their general, you just hugely out-tempo'd them and drew a card. Don't worry about their general any more, just kill them.
2.) Primeval Titan changed EDH. It may only be one card, but I feel like the titans changed the philosophy of a lot of EDH players. It is really rare where I see an EDH deck where the best creature is the general, even in so-called voltron decks.
If you manage to Hinder an Uril, you might have beaten them in 2009. Now, they untap and play their 6 drop. And WotC will keep printing 6 drops for them, because R&D is (luckily for us) really into EDH and Cube right now.
Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph, Craterhoof Behemoth, Sun Titan, Sheoldred. People can't afford not to play these creatures, and this is what they will untap with after you deal with their general.
So, your Hinder was totally fine here. It was dissipate, which is probably good enough for EDH, if you're just trying not to die. But, I would rather play Remand or Condescend for the free card.
3.) Reactive, situational 1-for-1's. There are few enough tuck cards that we can talk about most of them individually.
Hinder and Spell Crumple require you to pass the turn with 3 mana up, and then require your opponent to run out their general.
When is this mythical turn in your evenly matched EDH decks happening? Are you not casting that Worn Powerstone in the hopes that your opponent runs their guy into your open mana and seven card hand?
Condemn... I've ranted about enough. There are two classes of creatures in EDH. Creatures with ETB effects, and creatures that win when you untap with them. Most of the latter don't require attacking, and a few that do attack (Kaalia, P Titan) don't need to connect. Condemn deals with nothing in EDH that is relevant. Pacifism is a better card in EDH, because you can play it before Primeval Titan attacks.
Spin into Myth Now here's a condemn I can get behind! If only you'd hit that fifth land before Animar or Azusa hit the battlefield...
Spin into Myth is actually a pretty darn good card, but five is a lot of mana to kill one thing. Dealing with anything is awesome, but you'll never get tempo out of this card, and tempo is king.
Hallowed Burial An exception to the rule, a fantastic card, because while it does tuck, it isn't just looking for a voltron general or otherwise sitting dead in your hand.
My only issue with this card is that a lot of W/x decks play Mimic Vat and Sun Titan, and this is an obvious nonbo. Still... it's likely going to cause some serious repercussions for your opponent, and is a staple for a reason.
Bant Charm It's pretty hard to print a card with three modes that isnt good, and all three of these happen to be very good in EDH.
Putrefy is good enough for EDH, and this is a case where tucking (and having a third mode as countermagic) pushes this card into the realm of staple.
Keep in mind, this is still a reactive card that takes a decent amount of your mana to use in the mid-game.
Closing Argument - Tucking isn't bad. It's just overvalued. It's fine to sleeve up a hinder, just be aware that versus about 2/3rds of the competitive field, it is going to be a dissipate.
Is dissipate good enough for your meta? Maybe it is. Is it still the card you're most excited to see in your opening seven? Probably not.
So, I wrote this up like an essay, and stated some things as fact. These are, of course, my opinions. Some things were stated as hyperbole to give people a chuckle; I am well aware that condemn has text, and somewhere there is probably a halfway-decent Ruhan deck that just got crushed by it while I was typing this.
I would love to hear if other people's metagames are as tempo oriented as mine is.
Would you play remand over hinder at your kitchen table, LGS, local SCG events, or otherwise?
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
I'd play both. No reason not to. Tucking is powerful, is it the end all be all of counterspells and ways to deal with generals? No, but I don't think anybody ever said that.
Gomazoa and Void Stalker are also worth adding to that list, aren't them?
Personally, I like tuck as a way of answering problematic generals and recurring creatures. Problems are tuck effects generally cost a little to much to be very effective as spot removal, and, as you said, goodstuff decks that don't rely on specific creatures to win.
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Commander:GB Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord (list) - U Talrand, Sky Summoner - GRU Maelstrom Wanderer
My meta is (for the most part) slow enough that simply countering/remanding a general does not set the player back so far in tempo that it harms their game plan with their general. Tucking sets them back with their Plan A a long ways, barring a tutor or lucky shuffling/draw.
And really, there are a lot more generals that players want to attack with than you're implying. And most generals don't have built-in protects, their players needing to rely in things like Lightning Greaves or Whispersilk Cloak. Ghave or Karador might be content to sit back and use their activated/passive abilities to win the game, but Thada is usually going to come out the gates swinging if she wants to build the advantage she needs to win, and most legendary dragons need to attack in order to be useful, for example.
Even when you don't need to attack with the general in order to win, players will frequently take opportunistic attacks when they seem worthwhile.
Personally, I'd play both Remand AND Hinder. Actually, Hinder and Spell Crumple are the only two counters I generally play at three or above mana(with Cryptic Comand being the obv example as it does everything).
Gomazoa and Void Stalker are also worth adding to that list, aren't them?
Personally, I like tuck as a way of answering problematic generals and recurring creatures. Problems are tuck effects generally cost a little to much to be very effective as spot removal, and, as you said, goodstuff decks that don't rely on specific creatures to win.
They should be added, but I don't think I'm going to edit this tonight. Feel free to give your thoughts on them?
I'd play both. No reason not to. Tucking is powerful, is it the end all be all of counterspells and ways to deal with generals? No, but I don't think anybody ever said that.
Always really glad to have your input on cards, and I think that's well put.
Maybe these cards aren't as overvalued as they once were. I remember a time when all the good players in my area would NEVER cut a hinder from their deck.
When I started playing EDH, if I saw hinder in my opener, I would think things like "I can't lose." Maybe that was just me? That way of thinking at least permeated my group for a while.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
The first 6 turns of the game aren't the only turns of the game. Funny how you mentioned Primeval Titan and how he changed EDH. Yet you state the commander tax and a pure tempo spell like Remand as better than hard answers for generals. Doesn't Primeval Titan make tempo and commander tax less relevant?
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This format is the only reason I still own Magic cards.
They should be added, but I don't think I'm going to edit this tonight. Feel free to give your thoughts on them?
The Jellyfish and the Elemental Alien are necessary includes in all my green/blue decks. Being creatures makes them highly cheatable into play. Having to wait a turn to use them isn't great, though.
Interesting... I'd want the cantrip off remand even more in multiplayer. I really don't like 1-for-1 anything in 4 man games.
Ideally, you're not being thrust into a 3v1 Archenemy situation. (If you have become such a threat that you're being treated as an Archenemy, -1 card oughtn't be an issue for you.) In a 4-player game, it ought to be 1v1v1v1, not 3v1. While the lack of a cantrip means you used 1 card to get rid of Opponent A's 1 card, and that means the both of you are down a card compared to Opponent B and Opponent C, that doesn't mean the relative advantage B and C have over you is going to matter - B and C need to use that advantage against A and against one another, as well.
In a free-for-all setting 1-for-1 trades actually aren't that bad (unless that's all you're doing, all the time). In fact, the more players are in the game, the less of an impact a single 1-for-1 trade makes. (And in a 2-player game, a 1-for-1 keeps you and your opponent equal; it's a 3-player game where a 1-for-1 is the worst.)
you left out chaos warp and oblation, 2 very strong options.
while keeping something on the field early is important to prevent opportunistic attacks, in most groups I've played with it's more important to avoid looking like the threat than to gain a tempo advantage. while there are certainly plenty of goodstuff decks out there, the most unique part of EDH is playing with a general, so most people I play against (and most decks I build) try to build around the general to some extent, and losing him (semi) permanently can drastically slow down the deck.
Sure, if you're looking at the most powerful decks conceivable, many of them might not focus much on the general for consistency's sake, but it's a casual format and generals are fun, and tuck is effective against those decks. If you're saying that you can "just kill them" because you remanded their general...I think it's fair to say that your meta doesn't reflect most metas.
The first 6 turns of the game aren't the only turns of the game. Funny how you mentioned Primeval Titan and how he changed EDH. Yet you state the commander tax and a pure tempo spell like Remand as better than hard answers for generals. Doesn't Primeval Titan make tempo and commander tax less relevant?
In theory, yes, in practice, no. Let's assume your commander costs 3-5 if you played him, had him dealt with, and then played a titan. You're untapping next turn with a 6/6 trample and 8 mana sources in play, 9 if you play a land.
Most decks in my local meta are "over the top" of their general at this point, and end up dumping their hand, or playing a TAN, kicked Rite of Replication, or multiple spells.
Of Mimeoplasm, Ghave, Animar, Azusa, Sisay, and Radha... I think only Sisay might replay their general for 4GW. And if that's an opposing Sisay's best play on 8 mana, I'm a happy camper. (The meta is larger than this, but these are the green decks that win frequently.)
Trying to pit two really good cards against each other is a fail.
Remand is tempo, Hinder is a hard counter and a "permanent" Commander answer.
Run both.
I haven't seen hinder in a deck that won store credit at my LGS in a year, save Zur, which needs counterspells into the double-digits and has no choice. (And hasn't been good enough to win vs hate in a while.)
Every other blue player is still running remand.
A surprising amount of people seem to think that Hinder is playable. I agree that it is a good card and slightly better than Dissipate in EDH, and probably makes it into a deck like Thada that needs 60ish good blue cards.
I'm noticing for the first time that most of the decks in our group with blue are three color blue. We probably have much much higher requirements for which blue cards make the cut because of our BUG and RUG shells.
Okay, so I hear you all loud and clear that Hinder and Remand both make the cut in mono-blue. Should I amend the above question to ask what would make the cut in 5 color goodstuff?
I honestly can't see hinder being good enough to make most UG lists. I can see it being fine in Mono-U, UB, and UR. But 3 colors, it should be on the chopping block for more unfair cards.
Ideally, you're not being thrust into a 3v1 Archenemy situation. (If you have become such a threat that you're being treated as an Archenemy, -1 card oughtn't be an issue for you.) In a 4-player game, it ought to be 1v1v1v1, not 3v1. While the lack of a cantrip means you used 1 card to get rid of Opponent A's 1 card, and that means the both of you are down a card compared to Opponent B and Opponent C, that doesn't mean the relative advantage B and C have over you is going to matter - B and C need to use that advantage against A and against one another, as well.
In a free-for-all setting 1-for-1 trades actually aren't that bad (unless that's all you're doing, all the time). In fact, the more players are in the game, the less of an impact a single 1-for-1 trade makes. (And in a 2-player game, a 1-for-1 keeps you and your opponent equal; it's a 3-player game where a 1-for-1 is the worst.)
So one card is good enough to get me out of a 3-for-1 gang up, and the other isn't? My feelings exactly.
This was increasingly my thought exactly as I read the OP. I think many good points are made, but it is much more realistic and important to out-tempo one opponent than it is possible to out-tempo the whole table. In a multiplayer game, solving a problem as permanently as it can be solved buys me the time to actually win.
I may be looking at it an odd way, or maybe it's a complete lack of sleep (probably the second :P)
But how is throwing a General into the deck (Hinder), worse than throwing it in their hand (Remand), only to be played the next turn? Hinder seems like it will completely slow any voltron player down, and require them to use some kind of tutor to get it back.
This was increasingly my thought exactly as I read the OP. I think many good points are made, but it is much more realistic and important to out-tempo one opponent than it is possible to out-tempo the whole table. In a multiplayer game,solving a problem as permanently as it can be solved buys me the time to actually win.
Agreed. When I want to counter something, it's usually something strong like a Demonic Tutor, repeating Capsize or Corpse Dance, or something really deadly like Tooth and Nail. Returning these cards to their owners' hands doesn't help much.
On Remand and tempo, I think I'd always rather play Arcane Denial. And Hinder always beats out Remand to me. Tucking a strong general (especially a non-green or non-black one) can often win a game, and straight counters often don't really bother decks with tons of graveyard recursion, like Karador or Sedris or Wort.
So one card is good enough to get me out of a 3-for-1 gang up, and the other isn't? My feelings exactly.
I'm saying that a cantrip on a 1-for-1 tempo trade is less relevant (compared to a flat 1-for-1 trade without the cantrip) the more players are in the game, assuming the players are actually playing a FFA game.
So one card is good enough to get me out of a 3-for-1 gang up, and the other isn't? My feelings exactly.
I really don't see either being good enough to get you out of a 3-for-1 gang up, with remand having the added problem of being less than good in the uber late game vs must answer problems.
Hinder and Spell crumple get played because although the chance to tuck a general is "mythical" or whatever, it has tremendous upside. Firstly, Voltron is pretty popular and if you tuck that commander you may as well have taken that guy out of the game if not delayed them significantly. Secondly, if you merely have the card in your deck with 1UU open, your opponent is taking a very significant risk just playing their general. Often they will play out something else that they won't mind as much if it gets tucked, but it delays how long before the general hits the field, perhaps long enough that you can find an answer or become a greater threat.
Long and short of it is if it's in your deck, opponents have to respect it. Having it in the deck can be more important than casting it.
Condemn has always been a bit of a dicey play due to its "attacking" limitation (it's completely cold to the uber-popular Lightning Greaves) but for players who can't always afford premier white removal or just want more of it past StE, Path and Oblation, it's an uncommon with multiple printings that is an easy include for more casual lists and for players who are just starting out. Personally, I've always felt that Radiant's Judgment and Intrepid Hero are criminally underplayed removal options that are better than Condemn.
And finally, Remand is pretty good, yes. But Arcane Denial is where it's at.
1) Condemn has always been bad, it always will be bad, it is no staple of commander and is a bad card in this format.
2) You should know about when most of your opponents play their commanders because you should be used to playing against them. If a player doesnt really need their commander then they wont play it at the same times every game. On the other hand a player like Uril will want to play his commander when he hits his mana. The only reason a player like that wouldnt play his commander when he can there is suspecting you have the answer. If you stall a game ending commander in this means it is as good as anything because it is buying you time. If they do that regularly when you have open mana then bluff it sometimes.
The only situations where tuck isn't as good are A) player is playing goodstuff and doesn't rely on his commander. B) Decks that run TONS of tutors.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Condemn may very well be bad, but it's not entirely useless. Certain aspects of my metagame allow Condemn to remain useful in it. Namely, the fact that at various times I've been attacked for lethal by huge non-commander creatures by everyone in my playgroup.
Of course, the StP/PtE that I also run would work equally well, and the argument against Condemn has been pretty thorough and logical. Looks like I'll be cutting it soon. On the plus side, yay -- more room!
Condemn is just fine, I ran it in a Zedruu control deck. I don't run it in my more aggressive white decks as it can't deal with blockers but you know it didn't have to gank a general to be good. Just dealing with a large creature that's attacking you is good enough.
A one mana answer is a one mana answer... Condemn is still good, if outclassed by Swords to plowshares and Path to Exile. For the record, the above don't stop activated or non-combat step triggered abilities either.
You make it seem like if you have a tuck card, it can ONLY tuck a general. This is not the case. In fact, tuck is usually better than removal for most creatures, since tutoring is not in EDH quite as much as the omnipresent recursion. Hinder and friends act like slightly worse Dissipates at their mana costs (that practically win you the game against the general-centric deck), and the rest of the tucking cards you listed you said were good.
So, I think if WotC printed some extremely narrow card that tucked we may have an issue, but other than Condemn (which isn't THAT playable), there's pretty much no reason not to be running good cards.
It got me thinking, why did people consider condemn a staple in the early days of multiplayer EDH? Is it because it is efficiently costed? Advancing your game plan while leaving up one mana is kind of nice. But is that worth the horrible condition of letting your opponent untap with their threat?
Condemn's popularity is more likely because of it's ability to "tuck" a creature, especially a general, into the library. The assumption here is that decks that attack with their generals will have to go to a much worse plan B with their general in their library, and lose.
Here are some of the problems with valuing tucking too highly in EDH, when choosing your spell slots.
1.) Tempo is king. The nastiest decks in EDH can close out a game regularly on turn six, through disruption. Even if your meta is not this way, you want to make sure that you're at least operating at the same tempo as your group. What this means is... if you're as fast as your opponent, and their general goes back to the command zone, you'll probably win without having needed to tuck it.
Most generals that care about their commander being tucked aren't going to be too pleased with having to pay 2 more mana for it. Rafiq doesn't want to go on the warpath at six mana.
In your metagame, you should be able to become the aggressor before a General-Oriented deck can recast their guy. If they don't mind you countering their general and switch immediately to a plan B, guess what, you weren't facing a deck that cared about tucking after all.
Let's assume you're playing against an EDH deck you consider to be as good as yours, and their plan is their general. If you cast Remand on their general, you just hugely out-tempo'd them and drew a card. Don't worry about their general any more, just kill them.
2.) Primeval Titan changed EDH. It may only be one card, but I feel like the titans changed the philosophy of a lot of EDH players. It is really rare where I see an EDH deck where the best creature is the general, even in so-called voltron decks.
If you manage to Hinder an Uril, you might have beaten them in 2009. Now, they untap and play their 6 drop. And WotC will keep printing 6 drops for them, because R&D is (luckily for us) really into EDH and Cube right now.
Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph, Craterhoof Behemoth, Sun Titan, Sheoldred. People can't afford not to play these creatures, and this is what they will untap with after you deal with their general.
So, your Hinder was totally fine here. It was dissipate, which is probably good enough for EDH, if you're just trying not to die. But, I would rather play Remand or Condescend for the free card.
3.) Reactive, situational 1-for-1's. There are few enough tuck cards that we can talk about most of them individually.
Hinder and Spell Crumple require you to pass the turn with 3 mana up, and then require your opponent to run out their general.
When is this mythical turn in your evenly matched EDH decks happening? Are you not casting that Worn Powerstone in the hopes that your opponent runs their guy into your open mana and seven card hand?
Condemn... I've ranted about enough. There are two classes of creatures in EDH. Creatures with ETB effects, and creatures that win when you untap with them. Most of the latter don't require attacking, and a few that do attack (Kaalia, P Titan) don't need to connect. Condemn deals with nothing in EDH that is relevant. Pacifism is a better card in EDH, because you can play it before Primeval Titan attacks.
Spin into Myth Now here's a condemn I can get behind! If only you'd hit that fifth land before Animar or Azusa hit the battlefield...
Spin into Myth is actually a pretty darn good card, but five is a lot of mana to kill one thing. Dealing with anything is awesome, but you'll never get tempo out of this card, and tempo is king.
Hallowed Burial An exception to the rule, a fantastic card, because while it does tuck, it isn't just looking for a voltron general or otherwise sitting dead in your hand.
My only issue with this card is that a lot of W/x decks play Mimic Vat and Sun Titan, and this is an obvious nonbo. Still... it's likely going to cause some serious repercussions for your opponent, and is a staple for a reason.
Bant Charm It's pretty hard to print a card with three modes that isnt good, and all three of these happen to be very good in EDH.
Putrefy is good enough for EDH, and this is a case where tucking (and having a third mode as countermagic) pushes this card into the realm of staple.
Keep in mind, this is still a reactive card that takes a decent amount of your mana to use in the mid-game.
Closing Argument - Tucking isn't bad. It's just overvalued. It's fine to sleeve up a hinder, just be aware that versus about 2/3rds of the competitive field, it is going to be a dissipate.
Is dissipate good enough for your meta? Maybe it is. Is it still the card you're most excited to see in your opening seven? Probably not.
So, I wrote this up like an essay, and stated some things as fact. These are, of course, my opinions. Some things were stated as hyperbole to give people a chuckle; I am well aware that condemn has text, and somewhere there is probably a halfway-decent Ruhan deck that just got crushed by it while I was typing this.
I would love to hear if other people's metagames are as tempo oriented as mine is.
Would you play remand over hinder at your kitchen table, LGS, local SCG events, or otherwise?
Personally, I like tuck as a way of answering problematic generals and recurring creatures. Problems are tuck effects generally cost a little to much to be very effective as spot removal, and, as you said, goodstuff decks that don't rely on specific creatures to win.
Pauper: UR some horrible homebrew izzet deck
And really, there are a lot more generals that players want to attack with than you're implying. And most generals don't have built-in protects, their players needing to rely in things like Lightning Greaves or Whispersilk Cloak. Ghave or Karador might be content to sit back and use their activated/passive abilities to win the game, but Thada is usually going to come out the gates swinging if she wants to build the advantage she needs to win, and most legendary dragons need to attack in order to be useful, for example.
Even when you don't need to attack with the general in order to win, players will frequently take opportunistic attacks when they seem worthwhile.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Other than that, I've much preferred Mana Leaks, Spell Pierces, and Mental Missteps and Dazes. Condescend and
Syncopate,too. Admittedly, my only U/ deck is a Tempo deck with Sygg, River Cutthroat.edit: I mean Complicate, not Syncopate.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
They should be added, but I don't think I'm going to edit this tonight. Feel free to give your thoughts on them?
Interesting... I'd want the cantrip off remand even more in multiplayer. I really don't like 1-for-1 anything in 4 man games.
Always really glad to have your input on cards, and I think that's well put.
Maybe these cards aren't as overvalued as they once were. I remember a time when all the good players in my area would NEVER cut a hinder from their deck.
When I started playing EDH, if I saw hinder in my opener, I would think things like "I can't lose." Maybe that was just me? That way of thinking at least permeated my group for a while.
Remand is tempo, Hinder is a hard counter and a "permanent" Commander answer.
Run both.
Only in 1v1 EDH. In a large multiplayer game, the fastest to play out is usually the guy who ends up being curbed first.
The Jellyfish and the Elemental Alien are necessary includes in all my green/blue decks. Being creatures makes them highly cheatable into play. Having to wait a turn to use them isn't great, though.
This may be my inner noob speaking, but in that case I'd prefer a Dismiss. Two mana doesn't look like such a big difference in Commander.
Pauper: UR some horrible homebrew izzet deck
In a free-for-all setting 1-for-1 trades actually aren't that bad (unless that's all you're doing, all the time). In fact, the more players are in the game, the less of an impact a single 1-for-1 trade makes. (And in a 2-player game, a 1-for-1 keeps you and your opponent equal; it's a 3-player game where a 1-for-1 is the worst.)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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while keeping something on the field early is important to prevent opportunistic attacks, in most groups I've played with it's more important to avoid looking like the threat than to gain a tempo advantage. while there are certainly plenty of goodstuff decks out there, the most unique part of EDH is playing with a general, so most people I play against (and most decks I build) try to build around the general to some extent, and losing him (semi) permanently can drastically slow down the deck.
Sure, if you're looking at the most powerful decks conceivable, many of them might not focus much on the general for consistency's sake, but it's a casual format and generals are fun, and tuck is effective against those decks. If you're saying that you can "just kill them" because you remanded their general...I think it's fair to say that your meta doesn't reflect most metas.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
In theory, yes, in practice, no. Let's assume your commander costs 3-5 if you played him, had him dealt with, and then played a titan. You're untapping next turn with a 6/6 trample and 8 mana sources in play, 9 if you play a land.
Most decks in my local meta are "over the top" of their general at this point, and end up dumping their hand, or playing a TAN, kicked Rite of Replication, or multiple spells.
Of Mimeoplasm, Ghave, Animar, Azusa, Sisay, and Radha... I think only Sisay might replay their general for 4GW. And if that's an opposing Sisay's best play on 8 mana, I'm a happy camper. (The meta is larger than this, but these are the green decks that win frequently.)
I haven't seen hinder in a deck that won store credit at my LGS in a year, save Zur, which needs counterspells into the double-digits and has no choice. (And hasn't been good enough to win vs hate in a while.)
Every other blue player is still running remand.
A surprising amount of people seem to think that Hinder is playable. I agree that it is a good card and slightly better than Dissipate in EDH, and probably makes it into a deck like Thada that needs 60ish good blue cards.
I'm noticing for the first time that most of the decks in our group with blue are three color blue. We probably have much much higher requirements for which blue cards make the cut because of our BUG and RUG shells.
Okay, so I hear you all loud and clear that Hinder and Remand both make the cut in mono-blue. Should I amend the above question to ask what would make the cut in 5 color goodstuff?
I honestly can't see hinder being good enough to make most UG lists. I can see it being fine in Mono-U, UB, and UR. But 3 colors, it should be on the chopping block for more unfair cards.
So one card is good enough to get me out of a 3-for-1 gang up, and the other isn't? My feelings exactly.
How does your store do Commander Tournaments? That really determines a lot.
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ANT
Imperial Painter
This was increasingly my thought exactly as I read the OP. I think many good points are made, but it is much more realistic and important to out-tempo one opponent than it is possible to out-tempo the whole table. In a multiplayer game, solving a problem as permanently as it can be solved buys me the time to actually win.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
But how is throwing a General into the deck (Hinder), worse than throwing it in their hand (Remand), only to be played the next turn? Hinder seems like it will completely slow any voltron player down, and require them to use some kind of tutor to get it back.
Agreed. When I want to counter something, it's usually something strong like a Demonic Tutor, repeating Capsize or Corpse Dance, or something really deadly like Tooth and Nail. Returning these cards to their owners' hands doesn't help much.
On Remand and tempo, I think I'd always rather play Arcane Denial. And Hinder always beats out Remand to me. Tucking a strong general (especially a non-green or non-black one) can often win a game, and straight counters often don't really bother decks with tons of graveyard recursion, like Karador or Sedris or Wort.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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I really don't see either being good enough to get you out of a 3-for-1 gang up, with remand having the added problem of being less than good in the uber late game vs must answer problems.
Long and short of it is if it's in your deck, opponents have to respect it. Having it in the deck can be more important than casting it.
Condemn has always been a bit of a dicey play due to its "attacking" limitation (it's completely cold to the uber-popular Lightning Greaves) but for players who can't always afford premier white removal or just want more of it past StE, Path and Oblation, it's an uncommon with multiple printings that is an easy include for more casual lists and for players who are just starting out. Personally, I've always felt that Radiant's Judgment and Intrepid Hero are criminally underplayed removal options that are better than Condemn.
And finally, Remand is pretty good, yes. But Arcane Denial is where it's at.
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2) You should know about when most of your opponents play their commanders because you should be used to playing against them. If a player doesnt really need their commander then they wont play it at the same times every game. On the other hand a player like Uril will want to play his commander when he hits his mana. The only reason a player like that wouldnt play his commander when he can there is suspecting you have the answer. If you stall a game ending commander in this means it is as good as anything because it is buying you time. If they do that regularly when you have open mana then bluff it sometimes.
The only situations where tuck isn't as good are A) player is playing goodstuff and doesn't rely on his commander. B) Decks that run TONS of tutors.
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Of course, the StP/PtE that I also run would work equally well, and the argument against Condemn has been pretty thorough and logical. Looks like I'll be cutting it soon. On the plus side, yay -- more room!
Commander/EDH Decks:
BRG The Blood of Jund - Kresh the Bloodbraided BRG
WR The Blades of Goldnight - Gisela, Blade of Goldnight WR
So, I think if WotC printed some extremely narrow card that tucked we may have an issue, but other than Condemn (which isn't THAT playable), there's pretty much no reason not to be running good cards.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW