nothing more anger inducing than cards that say "you shouldn't have sat down in the first place".
Ruination and Back to Basics don't even destroy everything. In terms of "mean" they are nothing compared to others that actually mass land wipe. I'd even argue Boil and Acid Rain are potentially more mean spirited as they can be used to single people out (assuming they are the only ones running said color).
I'm not a real big fan of stuff like Omen Machine or Knowledge Pool But that's because they usually either facilitate a lock with Teferi or something, or just muck up the game state. I don't mind random chaos cards like Grip of Chaos or Confusion in the Ranks even in stuff other than Norin, but they at least let you still do what you want, even though the outcome might not be. Timesifter is another big offender, especially in multiples. Mean to me mostly means really really really annoying.
Identity Crisis is pretty annoying when multiple people are playing, since it only sets one player back rather than all of them and the game is usually at its best when you keep things balanced. It's hard to fire off at a person who's already built up a good board position because you threaten their ire, so oftentimes an innocent player slow on land will lose his hand and graveyard for nothing. It's not quite like Cruel Ultimatum which can selectively even out a board while furthering your own plans. Bojuka Bog is in a similar boat to crisis, though. "I play a land and I accidentally all your value." *shakes fist*
nothing more anger inducing than cards that say "you shouldn't have sat down in the first place".
Nothing aggravating about Ruination or Back to Basics. There should be a risk in trying to have access to every color pie. It's a chance you take. that's why I always make sure to have 10 or so basic lands and multiple color-producing mana rocks in every deck I make, no matter how many colors I'm using.
And yeah, Identity Crisis is a horrible card to get hit with. There's not a card I hate seeing more than that one. Not only is your hand gone, but you'll never be able to get any of it back with any form of recurrence.
Nothing aggravating about Ruination or Back to Basics. There should be a risk in trying to have access to every color pie. It's a chance you take. that's why I always make sure to have 10 or so basic lands in every deck I make, no matter how many colors I'm using.
Exactly this. It's a horrible trend when people think having an unassailable 5 color land base is fine.
I'm find that cards are annoying based on their context.
Basically, any time a player removes their opponent's capability to interact without actually killing them. I don't mind someone truly finishing me off with a big nuke. But its just impolite and "mean" to run mass discard without killing people, or blowing up lands all lands without having a wincon.
"Mean" cards are subjective - we're all there to play some Magic and anytime you shut your opponents out without killing them off, you are being mean.
Exactly this. It's a horrible trend when people think having an unassailable 5 color land base is fine.
No I agree, I just don't like borrowing my friends' budget tricolor decks and getting dumped on with them. I built a 5 color deck and it actually never saw issues with nonbasic hosers, its the funtime budget decks that really suffer from those two in particular. Blood Moon at least is easier to play around than BtB because red doesn't have counterspells.
I don't like Sorin Markov or Magister Sphinx. Most of the time the person doesn't want to seem like a jerk and picks randomly, and that person feels like they were randomly sucker-punched the rest of the game. They are definitely not as strong as something like Primeval Titan, but I hate that they are strong, and punishing to a single player. Very dirty. It really dampens the mood of a game for me, no matter who it's used on.
I love Ruination and Back to Basics. People who get greedy with their 300 dollars nobasic mana-base need to be punished imo. However, like Sorin and Magister, I hate when people play Wake of Destruction on a monocolored deck for the same reason.
This is all for multiplayer games, 1v1 I don't mind these cards at all.
Identity Crisis is pretty annoying when multiple people are playing, since it only sets one player back rather than all of them and the game is usually at its best when you keep things balanced.
I love Ruination and Back to Basics. People who get greedy with their 300 dollars nobasic mana-base need to be punished imo. However, like Sorin and Magister, I hate when people play Wake of Destruction on a monocolored deck for the same reason.
I own 9 out of 10 duals so I deserve to be punished for having a decent job and expendable cash flow?
I get what you mean, and there is DEFINITELY such a thing as too many nonbasics, I just think people are a little too touchy about expensive cards, either you can afford it and play with it or you can't and you make due.
I own 9 out of 10 duals so I deserve to be punished for having a decent job and expendable cash flow?
I get what you mean, and there is DEFINITELY such a thing as too many nonbasics, I just think people are a little too touchy about expensive cards, either you can afford it and play with it or you can't and you make due.
No, you should not be punished for being able to afford duals. You SHOULD be punished for running incredibly efficient color fixing, and Blood
Moon/Ruination/Back to Basics do that well.
No, you should not be punished for being able to afford duals. You SHOULD be punished for running incredibly efficient color fixing, and Blood
Moon/Ruination/Back to Basics do that well.
perfectly fair, although I am the guy that would rather run Armageddon or Jokulhaups over ruination, maybe it's just a playstyle thing.
perfectly fair, although I am the guy that would rather run Armageddon or Jokulhaups over ruination, maybe it's just a playstyle thing.
Armageddon is great but it is harder to play around. Ruination generally doesn't completely blow someone out and still slows the more overpowered non-basics. Also, with more and more incredibly strong non-basics being printed I really hope we'll see more hate (we won't but I can wish).
I own 9 out of 10 duals so I deserve to be punished for having a decent job and expendable cash flow?
I get what you mean, and there is DEFINITELY such a thing as too many nonbasics, I just think people are a little too touchy about expensive cards, either you can afford it and play with it or you can't and you make due.
I like cards that prevent the wealthiest player from pulling ahead ridiculously. The reserved list, the high cost of certain powerful cards ends up with wealthier players having much stronger decks. This makes for lopsided boring games when there are no answers so I figure that having cards that punishes people for playing expensive/powerful cards is better than not letting people play with expensive/powerful cards, or letting them play with expensive/powerful cards and no one can answer it. Would you rather ban the cards, or having boring lopsided games with out LD? Think of nonbasic hate as them 'making due
Furthermore, the many good nonbasics end up in the 10-20 dollar range, so if you get a few of them you have access to utility that costs no card slots. When someone gets 15+ of them, it gets really ridiculous without land destruction. So much utility that can dodge creature sweepers gives the player a significant advantage. Playing with duals, as others have said, gives you the absolute best colorfixing possible. So the budget player who can't spend more than $5 on a card will have to resort to nonbasic hate or be at a disadvantage.
I don't fault you for having a lot of money, but coming to a table with an expensive deck that no one can compete with is a worse punishment than them having answers for your nonbasic lands. We have a few players in my playgroup who own plenty of expensive cards, and they tone down the deck a little by taking out some good cards and adding wacky/fun cards. Their deck becomes more fun and a little closer to our level. Add in plenty of nonbasic land hate for those decks, and the games are a lot closer to being balanced. I think of nonbasic hate as budget deckbuilders way of 'making due'.
Playing it on turn 1, you better be really sure you can pull of an archenemy win, cause you're about to get the crap beaten out of you from the rest of the table.
I hate when people play Wake of Destruction on a monocolored deck for the same reason.
If you don't cast Wake on the G deck when he has seven lands on t3, you're just going to lose.
It fills a very important role, and while yes, there is potential for people to cast it randomly and inefficiently, ultimately most of the time it is a fine and respectable answer. Personally I feel we need more answers like this to handle all the crazy ramp decks from exploding all over the place.
If you don't cast Wake on the G deck when he has seven lands on t3, you're just going to lose.
It fills a very important role, and while yes, there is potential for people to cast it randomly and inefficiently, ultimately most of the time it is a fine and respectable answer. Personally I feel we need more answers like this to handle all the crazy ramp decks from exploding all over the place.
You are right, I forgot about mono-g decks that run rampant in other metas, there are none in mine. I usually just see it taking out b or u decks that don't usually accumulate excessive lands.
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Personally for me:
Ruination
Back to Basics
Gaddock Teeg
Iona, Shield of Emeria
nothing more anger inducing than cards that say "you shouldn't have sat down in the first place".
Ruination and Back to Basics don't even destroy everything. In terms of "mean" they are nothing compared to others that actually mass land wipe. I'd even argue Boil and Acid Rain are potentially more mean spirited as they can be used to single people out (assuming they are the only ones running said color).
Nothing aggravating about Ruination or Back to Basics. There should be a risk in trying to have access to every color pie. It's a chance you take. that's why I always make sure to have 10 or so basic lands and multiple color-producing mana rocks in every deck I make, no matter how many colors I'm using.
And yeah, Identity Crisis is a horrible card to get hit with. There's not a card I hate seeing more than that one. Not only is your hand gone, but you'll never be able to get any of it back with any form of recurrence.
Exactly this. It's a horrible trend when people think having an unassailable 5 color land base is fine.
Basically, any time a player removes their opponent's capability to interact without actually killing them. I don't mind someone truly finishing me off with a big nuke. But its just impolite and "mean" to run mass discard without killing people, or blowing up lands all lands without having a wincon.
"Mean" cards are subjective - we're all there to play some Magic and anytime you shut your opponents out without killing them off, you are being mean.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
Persecution
cards that destroy 1 type of land (Acid Rain, Flashfires, Boil, Conversion, etc)
Identity Crisis
cards that screw 1 color (Light of Day, Wrath of Merit Lage, etc)
Iona, Shield of Emeria
cards that punish people for thing that are natural to a game (Back to Basics, Blood Moon)
I collect pre-release Stone-Tongue Basilisk
No I agree, I just don't like borrowing my friends' budget tricolor decks and getting dumped on with them. I built a 5 color deck and it actually never saw issues with nonbasic hosers, its the funtime budget decks that really suffer from those two in particular. Blood Moon at least is easier to play around than BtB because red doesn't have counterspells.
I love Ruination and Back to Basics. People who get greedy with their 300 dollars nobasic mana-base need to be punished imo. However, like Sorin and Magister, I hate when people play Wake of Destruction on a monocolored deck for the same reason.
This is all for multiplayer games, 1v1 I don't mind these cards at all.
This. Nothing screams mean like Identity Crisis.
I own 9 out of 10 duals so I deserve to be punished for having a decent job and expendable cash flow?
I get what you mean, and there is DEFINITELY such a thing as too many nonbasics, I just think people are a little too touchy about expensive cards, either you can afford it and play with it or you can't and you make due.
No, you should not be punished for being able to afford duals. You SHOULD be punished for running incredibly efficient color fixing, and Blood
Moon/Ruination/Back to Basics do that well.
perfectly fair, although I am the guy that would rather run Armageddon or Jokulhaups over ruination, maybe it's just a playstyle thing.
Armageddon is great but it is harder to play around. Ruination generally doesn't completely blow someone out and still slows the more overpowered non-basics. Also, with more and more incredibly strong non-basics being printed I really hope we'll see more hate (we won't but I can wish).
I like cards that prevent the wealthiest player from pulling ahead ridiculously. The reserved list, the high cost of certain powerful cards ends up with wealthier players having much stronger decks. This makes for lopsided boring games when there are no answers so I figure that having cards that punishes people for playing expensive/powerful cards is better than not letting people play with expensive/powerful cards, or letting them play with expensive/powerful cards and no one can answer it. Would you rather ban the cards, or having boring lopsided games with out LD? Think of nonbasic hate as them 'making due
Furthermore, the many good nonbasics end up in the 10-20 dollar range, so if you get a few of them you have access to utility that costs no card slots. When someone gets 15+ of them, it gets really ridiculous without land destruction. So much utility that can dodge creature sweepers gives the player a significant advantage. Playing with duals, as others have said, gives you the absolute best colorfixing possible. So the budget player who can't spend more than $5 on a card will have to resort to nonbasic hate or be at a disadvantage.
I don't fault you for having a lot of money, but coming to a table with an expensive deck that no one can compete with is a worse punishment than them having answers for your nonbasic lands. We have a few players in my playgroup who own plenty of expensive cards, and they tone down the deck a little by taking out some good cards and adding wacky/fun cards. Their deck becomes more fun and a little closer to our level. Add in plenty of nonbasic land hate for those decks, and the games are a lot closer to being balanced. I think of nonbasic hate as budget deckbuilders way of 'making due'.
They kinda do.
Playing it on turn 1, you better be really sure you can pull of an archenemy win, cause you're about to get the crap beaten out of you from the rest of the table.
At least, that's how it is at my meta.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
At least cards like those set the playing field even not just screw everyone else!
I collect pre-release Stone-Tongue Basilisk
I wouldn't say that those cards are mean...over-used maybe but not mean. I do agree with you about the Avenger clause though.
Now if you want mean...how about Winter Orb? Slows games down to a crawl...
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If you don't cast Wake on the G deck when he has seven lands on t3, you're just going to lose.
It fills a very important role, and while yes, there is potential for people to cast it randomly and inefficiently, ultimately most of the time it is a fine and respectable answer. Personally I feel we need more answers like this to handle all the crazy ramp decks from exploding all over the place.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
You are right, I forgot about mono-g decks that run rampant in other metas, there are none in mine. I usually just see it taking out b or u decks that don't usually accumulate excessive lands.