For 1U, you get an instant speed ETB trigger of a creature you have in play. That likely costs less than casting the creature, which is only Sorcery speed anyway. It doesn't require you to bounce the creature or sacrifice and Regrowth it from your graveyard to replay it. It can be done multiple times per turn at less cost than bounce/recast engines. You can also use it on multiple creatures in a turn, bouncing itself and repairing with something else. All that and it protects creatures targeted by spot removal.
Comparison to some popular cards: Reya Dawnbringer requires target creature to be in the graveyard and only does one per turn. Sheoldred, Whispering One: see Reya Dawnbringer. Volrath's Stronghold is worse than Reya and Sheoldred because it returns the creature to your topdeck, not into play. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker gives you one ETB trigger per turn. Yes, it also can copy big attackers and creatures with good static abilities (like Consecrated Sphynx). Debtor's Knell steals stuff, but has Reya's same restrictions.
Heck, I wrote [url=http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=416774]a whole thread of recursion engines[/card] and none of them seem as good as Navigator (though I didn't finish the thread due to lack of interest).
What else can we compare it to? Or is it simply the best ETB creature recursion engine there is?
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
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Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
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I don't see "Norin" written anywhere on it, so no.
Haha, I've assembled your Norin deck, but everyone's too chicken to play against it. He's the best ETB ever, but not quite what I ment.
To clarify, I meant "ETB enabler engine": a reusable effect which allows other creatures to trigger their ETB effects.
Some people will sacrifice an Eternal Witness, regrowth her back to their hand, then recast her. That's slow, expensive and restrictive. I say, blink her with Navigator. Many times per turn. At instant speed. For 1U. And laugh. Each time.
Is Deadeye Navigator the best ETB enabler engine? Then why are the previous cards I mentioned still worth more money (since I assume value = usefulness) and more sought after? Is it because people know them and haven't yet discovered Navigator?
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
Is Deadeye Navigator the best ETB enabler engine? Then why are the previous cards I mentioned still worth more money (since I assume value = usefulness) and more sought after? Is it because people know them and haven't yet discovered Navigator?
Reya and Sheoldred are useful in a lot of decks, not just ones abusing ETB effects, because they provide a powerful body along with a recursion effect.
Debtor's Knell is more useful for stealing creatures, so it's a completely different role.
Volrath's Stronghold is old, so more rare, and also retrieves previously dead creatures.
Kiki-Jiki sees play in other formats.
The main flaw with your reasoning seems to be assuming that people only play graveyard recursion to retrigger ETB effects. A better comparison would compare Deadeye Navigator to Mistmeadow Witch, Flickerform, or Conjurer's Closet, in which case you would find that it sees more play.
The main flaw with your reasoning seems to be assuming that people only play graveyard recursion to retrigger ETB effects.
True, I've only researched graveyard recursion for my recursion list and have yet to research bounce. Still, Navigator is better than bouncing and recasting a creature. It can be done at instant speed compared to creature casting as a sorcery. And Navigator's 1U likely costs less than paying a creature's cost to recast it.
How about I rephrase my question:
Are there any better ETB enabler engines than Deadeye Navigator? "Better" meaning the recursion is faster, cheaper, or more efficient; or the enabler itself has more abilities (like Debtor's Knell), good power/toughness, or other bonuses?
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
Hell's Caretaker + Thornbite Staff also allows you to infinitely loop two creatures during your upkeep, allowing your ETB creatures to go infinite as well.
Lots of Reveillark combos can go infinite, although they require a sac outlet.
Deadeye Navigator is probably the best way to do it with a single card, but there are plenty of combos with multiple cards.
I think it's depend on what do you want your engine to do. If you simply want to blink some creature you control, yes. However, it's lack versatility some other engine has. For instance, Mistmeadow Witch can blink any creature and combo with Sundial of Infinite or blink your Gilded Drake.
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I hate to use the whole it dies to removal argument but in my opinion he is heavily dependent on how much removal you see in your meta. Someone online I was playing against with my bant deck slammed one thinking he was going to ride it all the way to the win and I spot removed him on the first trigger to soulbind.
It is one of those cards that has the potential to totally run away with the game... assuming your opponents dont run any answers. In spot removal heavy metas it sucks. In wrath heavy metas it is... ok. In removal light metas it runs away with the game.
Its sort of like Avenger of Zendikar in a lot of senses... Someone better come up with an answer or its just game over. He can be really solid or he can be a total flop.
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Graveyard recursion and blink effects are a whole different pair of shoes! The only thing they have in common is that they both enable multiple uses of ETB effects. GY recursion allows you to use your whole GY as a ressource which in actual games allows for much more versatility than just blinking because most of the time you have much more creatures in your GY than in play. The cool thing about GY recursion is that your creatures just don't stay dead regardless how often someone kills them.
Blinking effects allows only to use creatures which are in play, making them much more situational. Compare Deadeye and Sheoldred when the board is empty and you are topdecking...
Also Deadeye Navigator costs six to cast and then you need a whole lot of mana to blink a few times before the next sweep takes him.
Bottomline: I think he is a very solid blink enabler (but not necessarily better than Conjurers Closet or Venser, the Sojurner due to manacost and fragility), I run him myself in my ETB Rafiq deck. But it's just wrong to compare blinking and GY recursion and asking which is better, because they really are two different things which have somthing in common (It's like asking if spot removal or counterspells are better; they can both deal with stuff but in a so completely different way, that you can't really say that they do the same).
There's an ETB trigger engine that costs far less than Navigator. Thanks for sharing (that's going into my Endreck Sahr deck).
Someone better come up with an answer or its just game over. He can be really solid or he can be a total flop.
This is an unfortunately good point. It's my bad habit to always think of cards in isolation without considering opponents. So, while other ETB trigger engines may need multiple cards to work, Navigator needs multiple cards to protect him and/or disrupt opponent's removal.
But, don't many engines "die to removal"? For instance, the above mentioned Hell's Caretaker + Thronbite Staff; destroy one of the two pieces and the engine is broken. Perhaps the most resilient engines are those threatened by the least common removal (lands and enchantments?).
Graveyard recursion and blink effects are a whole different pair of shoes! The only thing they have in common is that they both enable multiple uses of ETB effects.
So this answers my question. No, Navigator is not the best because graveyard recursion engines offer more utility and card advantage, even though they may be less efficient and/or more expensive. Yup, I was only thinking about causing ETB triggers, forgetting that the opponent might spot remove, board wipe, mill, or otherwise put cards in my graveyard.
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Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
This is actually the wrong way to think about this. Graveyard recursion, unless in the form of a spell with Buyback, or an artifact / enchantment are the only cards you can equally compare. You need to be able to "recur" more then once for it to be on par.
As far as I am aware, there are no recursion engines for just 2 mana, that will actually put the card into play, Sigil of the New Dawn with put it in your hand, Purgatory will put it into play at 4 mana but with an added 2 life. Most recursion can also only be used once.
Now here is the problem with reusable recursion and the very bad dies to removal line. All artifacts and enchantments get blown up by removal also. The only thing that is going to escape this process is a spell with buyback, and then it requires a self-sacrificing creature or a sac outlet. The reason you pay so much to bring it out, is because you hope it will last a turn, its like a Primeval Titan, you didn't play it to fetch two lands, you played it so it can go around once.
Here is the most important part, he is protection himself, but if you pack protection he is a pain to get rid of. I always back mine up with a flicker spell of some sort. Leave 2 mana open when you cast him, if they try to pop him, flicker it in response and you are going to be good usually until your turn comes around. I think people underestimate the card because they aren't playing it right, its the same people who play Kaalia with no chance to protect her, then say she is overrated, well yes, because you are doing it wrong.
A lazy player plays something splashy and hopes it survives, which is where "dies to removal" comes from, people who drops bombs with no protection. There is nothing that is going to give you the re-usability Deadeye Navigator offers for its cost.
Permanents get removed by removal, unless you are playing a spellslinger deck, never worry about mythical removal.
EDIT: If you are running cheap enough ETB creatures, you can always run Karador, but he also dies to removal.
Last week, I bonded him to an Eternal Witness, and then a Duplicant.
Needless to say, it was bananas.
Yup, navigator wins rounds very easily.
Duplicants, Acidic Slime, Chancellor of the Spires with Time Stretch in a graveyard or even Primeval Titan.. I've seen and done it all, and it's really strong.
I've even paired it with Mystic Snake, or Mimeoplasm to counter all reanimates.
My most recent bananas with Navigator was bonding it with Restoration Angel. Suddenly, I don't have to pay an extra :1mana::symu: to switch the card I'm blinking. Just blink the one I'm already bonded with, and the other creature gets blinked anyway.
That board state included Duplicant, Merchant of Secrets, Mnemonic Wall, and Rasputin Dreamweaver. After the game was over, I checked the top of my deck and found Mycosynth Lattice near the top, which would have made me go infinite thanks to Rasputin.
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I find it interesting you have only 1 EtB "engine" in your list other than Navigator, which is a quite mediocre one.
Reya, Knell etc are recursion elements, cards that I'd regard as EtB engines are Crystal Shard, Equilibrium, Vedalken Mastermind, Cloudstone Curio, heck, even Tidespout Tyrant can fill that role better than Reya or her kin.
The closest comparison to Deadeye is Mistmeadow Witch. Witch is a lot cheaper to come down, a little less vulnerable to spot removal (deadeye can be nuked in response to the bonding trigger) given ludicrous mana, can provide protection from your opponents' dudes, and can save dudes from wraths. (His smaller size also makes him an attractive target for Sun Titan, Reveillark, Imperial Recruiter, and similar.) Navigator requires fewer colors, is a bigger beater on its own, can blink the same creature multiple times in one turn, and is cheaper for repeatedly blinking the same creature (similarly costed for blinking multiple creatures though, as you need to blink him out each time, bond with the new target, and blink them). (His large size makes him easier to find with Fierce Empath and has interactions with a few other cards like Paleoloth and Mayael of the Anima.)
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I find it interesting you have only 1 EtB "engine" in your list other than Navigator, which is a quite mediocre one.
Reya, Knell etc are recursion elements, cards that I'd regard as EtB engines are Crystal Shard, Equilibrium, Vedalken Mastermind, Cloudstone Curio, heck, even Tidespout Tyrant can fill that role better than Reya or her kin.
Wait, are you really saying that Navigator is a "mediocre" recursion engine? I mean sure, it's vulnerable to removal- but virtually everything is vulnerable to removal. Plus you're in blue, so you should be packing answers- like say Venser, Shaper Savant.
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For 1U, you get an instant speed ETB trigger of a creature you have in play. That likely costs less than casting the creature, which is only Sorcery speed anyway. It doesn't require you to bounce the creature or sacrifice and Regrowth it from your graveyard to replay it. It can be done multiple times per turn at less cost than bounce/recast engines. You can also use it on multiple creatures in a turn, bouncing itself and repairing with something else. All that and it protects creatures targeted by spot removal.
Comparison to some popular cards:
Reya Dawnbringer requires target creature to be in the graveyard and only does one per turn.
Sheoldred, Whispering One: see Reya Dawnbringer.
Volrath's Stronghold is worse than Reya and Sheoldred because it returns the creature to your topdeck, not into play.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker gives you one ETB trigger per turn. Yes, it also can copy big attackers and creatures with good static abilities (like Consecrated Sphynx).
Debtor's Knell steals stuff, but has Reya's same restrictions.
Heck, I wrote [url=http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=416774]a whole thread of recursion engines[/card] and none of them seem as good as Navigator (though I didn't finish the thread due to lack of interest).
What else can we compare it to? Or is it simply the best ETB creature recursion engine there is?
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Haha, I've assembled your Norin deck, but everyone's too chicken to play against it. He's the best ETB ever, but not quite what I ment.
To clarify, I meant "ETB enabler engine": a reusable effect which allows other creatures to trigger their ETB effects.
Some people will sacrifice an Eternal Witness, regrowth her back to their hand, then recast her. That's slow, expensive and restrictive. I say, blink her with Navigator. Many times per turn. At instant speed. For 1U. And laugh. Each time.
Is Deadeye Navigator the best ETB enabler engine? Then why are the previous cards I mentioned still worth more money (since I assume value = usefulness) and more sought after? Is it because people know them and haven't yet discovered Navigator?
FireFox31
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Reya and Sheoldred are useful in a lot of decks, not just ones abusing ETB effects, because they provide a powerful body along with a recursion effect.
Debtor's Knell is more useful for stealing creatures, so it's a completely different role.
Volrath's Stronghold is old, so more rare, and also retrieves previously dead creatures.
Kiki-Jiki sees play in other formats.
The main flaw with your reasoning seems to be assuming that people only play graveyard recursion to retrigger ETB effects. A better comparison would compare Deadeye Navigator to Mistmeadow Witch, Flickerform, or Conjurer's Closet, in which case you would find that it sees more play.
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True, I've only researched graveyard recursion for my recursion list and have yet to research bounce. Still, Navigator is better than bouncing and recasting a creature. It can be done at instant speed compared to creature casting as a sorcery. And Navigator's 1U likely costs less than paying a creature's cost to recast it.
How about I rephrase my question:
Are there any better ETB enabler engines than Deadeye Navigator? "Better" meaning the recursion is faster, cheaper, or more efficient; or the enabler itself has more abilities (like Debtor's Knell), good power/toughness, or other bonuses?
FireFox31
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Hell's Caretaker + Thornbite Staff also allows you to infinitely loop two creatures during your upkeep, allowing your ETB creatures to go infinite as well.
Lots of Reveillark combos can go infinite, although they require a sac outlet.
Deadeye Navigator is probably the best way to do it with a single card, but there are plenty of combos with multiple cards.
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It is one of those cards that has the potential to totally run away with the game... assuming your opponents dont run any answers. In spot removal heavy metas it sucks. In wrath heavy metas it is... ok. In removal light metas it runs away with the game.
Its sort of like Avenger of Zendikar in a lot of senses... Someone better come up with an answer or its just game over. He can be really solid or he can be a total flop.
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Blinking effects allows only to use creatures which are in play, making them much more situational. Compare Deadeye and Sheoldred when the board is empty and you are topdecking...
Also Deadeye Navigator costs six to cast and then you need a whole lot of mana to blink a few times before the next sweep takes him.
Bottomline: I think he is a very solid blink enabler (but not necessarily better than Conjurers Closet or Venser, the Sojurner due to manacost and fragility), I run him myself in my ETB Rafiq deck. But it's just wrong to compare blinking and GY recursion and asking which is better, because they really are two different things which have somthing in common (It's like asking if spot removal or counterspells are better; they can both deal with stuff but in a so completely different way, that you can't really say that they do the same).
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Last week, I bonded him to an Eternal Witness, and then a Duplicant.
Needless to say, it was bananas.
stuff
There's an ETB trigger engine that costs far less than Navigator. Thanks for sharing (that's going into my Endreck Sahr deck).
This is an unfortunately good point. It's my bad habit to always think of cards in isolation without considering opponents. So, while other ETB trigger engines may need multiple cards to work, Navigator needs multiple cards to protect him and/or disrupt opponent's removal.
But, don't many engines "die to removal"? For instance, the above mentioned Hell's Caretaker + Thronbite Staff; destroy one of the two pieces and the engine is broken. Perhaps the most resilient engines are those threatened by the least common removal (lands and enchantments?).
So this answers my question. No, Navigator is not the best because graveyard recursion engines offer more utility and card advantage, even though they may be less efficient and/or more expensive. Yup, I was only thinking about causing ETB triggers, forgetting that the opponent might spot remove, board wipe, mill, or otherwise put cards in my graveyard.
Thanks for your insights everyone!
FireFox31
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As far as I am aware, there are no recursion engines for just 2 mana, that will actually put the card into play, Sigil of the New Dawn with put it in your hand, Purgatory will put it into play at 4 mana but with an added 2 life. Most recursion can also only be used once.
Now here is the problem with reusable recursion and the very bad dies to removal line. All artifacts and enchantments get blown up by removal also. The only thing that is going to escape this process is a spell with buyback, and then it requires a self-sacrificing creature or a sac outlet. The reason you pay so much to bring it out, is because you hope it will last a turn, its like a Primeval Titan, you didn't play it to fetch two lands, you played it so it can go around once.
Here is the most important part, he is protection himself, but if you pack protection he is a pain to get rid of. I always back mine up with a flicker spell of some sort. Leave 2 mana open when you cast him, if they try to pop him, flicker it in response and you are going to be good usually until your turn comes around. I think people underestimate the card because they aren't playing it right, its the same people who play Kaalia with no chance to protect her, then say she is overrated, well yes, because you are doing it wrong.
A lazy player plays something splashy and hopes it survives, which is where "dies to removal" comes from, people who drops bombs with no protection. There is nothing that is going to give you the re-usability Deadeye Navigator offers for its cost.
Permanents get removed by removal, unless you are playing a spellslinger deck, never worry about mythical removal.
EDIT: If you are running cheap enough ETB creatures, you can always run Karador, but he also dies to removal.
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Yup, navigator wins rounds very easily.
Duplicants, Acidic Slime, Chancellor of the Spires with Time Stretch in a graveyard or even Primeval Titan.. I've seen and done it all, and it's really strong.
I've even paired it with Mystic Snake, or Mimeoplasm to counter all reanimates.
My most recent bananas with Navigator was bonding it with Restoration Angel. Suddenly, I don't have to pay an extra :1mana::symu: to switch the card I'm blinking. Just blink the one I'm already bonded with, and the other creature gets blinked anyway.
That board state included Duplicant, Merchant of Secrets, Mnemonic Wall, and Rasputin Dreamweaver. After the game was over, I checked the top of my deck and found Mycosynth Lattice near the top, which would have made me go infinite thanks to Rasputin.
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The closest comparison to Deadeye is Mistmeadow Witch. Witch is a lot cheaper to come down, a little less vulnerable to spot removal (deadeye can be nuked in response to the bonding trigger) given ludicrous mana, can provide protection from your opponents' dudes, and can save dudes from wraths. (His smaller size also makes him an attractive target for Sun Titan, Reveillark, Imperial Recruiter, and similar.) Navigator requires fewer colors, is a bigger beater on its own, can blink the same creature multiple times in one turn, and is cheaper for repeatedly blinking the same creature (similarly costed for blinking multiple creatures though, as you need to blink him out each time, bond with the new target, and blink them). (His large size makes him easier to find with Fierce Empath and has interactions with a few other cards like Paleoloth and Mayael of the Anima.)
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Wait, are you really saying that Navigator is a "mediocre" recursion engine? I mean sure, it's vulnerable to removal- but virtually everything is vulnerable to removal. Plus you're in blue, so you should be packing answers- like say Venser, Shaper Savant.