15 would cripple my Mimeoplasm infect deck. It's based on weenie infect creatures (like Glistener Elf) and instant-speed pump spells (like Invigorate and Hatred). It can be ridiculously fast at times to do 10 infect, but at 15 infect, it would never kill anyone.
Rules say 10. 10 is still not good enough for 98% of us to play infect decks.
Coudn't this also be because of how people feels that it's "cheating" or "ruining the spirit of commander". Just from dropping an inkmoth nexus on the field some people at my lgs people call me a cheater and tells me that infect is unfair.
Personally I've almost removed infect completely from my regular decks, but it takes a spot as an alternative win-con for me in 1v1.
I love my infect modern deck, but infect in EDH seems boring and kind of narrow. I don't doubt it could be powerful, especially cards like Blight Dragon, and legacy and vintage-level cards to make it even faster but I play EDH for the zany interactions and politics, not for "woops 10 poison you're dead t3"
But for the vast majority, it's just a thirdrate alt wincon.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I play an infect heavy Mimeoplasm deck. It works and since i play in a casual playgroup, it wins a good amount of games. My buddy built one that is meant to Instill an infection then proliferate like crazy. We play with 10. I am willing to go to 15, but really getting much higher than that kind of kills the use of infect. In fact the only creatures that can still be useful after you reach 20 infect, is Blightseel and skytherix.
When I first started standard I played a b/g infect deck that was ok not great in standard. I really love trying to win alternatively in EDH (mill, poison, burn etc) I think its a challenge to build outside of the box and all, however infect like mill can be tricky to pull off. My group plays 20 poison. 10 is legal however. I've seen some pretty quick infect mimeoplasem decks where 10 poison makes it too broken, so 20 was a little more balanced.
When I first started standard I played a b/g infect deck that was ok not great in standard. I really love trying to win alternatively in EDH (mill, poison, burn etc) I think its a challenge to build outside of the box and all, however infect like mill can be tricky to pull off. My group plays 20 poison. 10 is legal however. I've seen some pretty quick infect mimeoplasem decks where 10 poison makes it too broken, so 20 was a little more balanced.
Your playgroup needs a control player. Usually one well-timed counter or removal spell, or even a Fog, cripples an infect deck. (Well, in the case of some sort of fog machine like Spike Weaver with some source of counters, it works until Livewire Lash comes out, but that's easily dealt with.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
While it's true that 10 and 15 don't make much difference most of the time, that difference does mean Blightsteel isn't a one-shot any more. It would give players an opportunity to use sorcery-speed removal to save themselves.
If you get one shot by blightsteel it is really your own fault. 10 is fine.
I fundamentally disagree with this statement.
So you are saying that at all times you should run white or blue (the only colors that can deal with a hasted Blightsteel), plus always have the Rift, Swords, or Path in your hand out of your 99 card deck, and never, ever tap out or fall victim to land destruction? Or have a $45 Maze of Ith (and have it on the field at all times)?
Yeah... no.
OT: My shop hated infect while it was in standard, so decks that even tangentially use it get hated out fairly fast. But we agreed on 15 for the people who insisted on running it.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I can't believe people complain about getting one shotted with a creature? So instead, I'll one shot you with my combo or Voltron deck. Must be your play group. A bunch of whiny teenagers.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
While it's true that 10 and 15 don't make much difference most of the time, that difference does mean Blightsteel isn't a one-shot any more. It would give players an opportunity to use sorcery-speed removal to save themselves.
If you get one shot by blightsteel it is really your own fault. 10 is fine.
I fundamentally disagree with this statement.
So you are saying that at all times you should run white or blue (the only colors that can deal with a hasted Blightsteel), plus always have the Rift, Swords, or Path in your hand out of your 99 card deck, and never, ever tap out or fall victim to land destruction? Or have a $45 Maze of Ith (and have it on the field at all times)?
Yeah... no.
OT: My shop hated infect while it was in standard, so decks that even tangentially use it get hated out fairly fast. But we agreed on 15 for the people who insisted on running it.
Red and Green can both deal with a hasty Blightsteel. Green with fog effects, Red with instant-speed "I steal your creature for a turn" effects. Hell, black even has Darkness, even though almost nobody plays with it.
The point people miss when they try to up infect to 15 is this - An infect deck can do 10 damage to one deck very quickly. But can it do 10 damage to THREE decks before it gets hated out? The vast majority of the time, the answer is no. 15? An infect deck would never win with any consistency having to do 45 infect damage to the table. What I'm basically saying is, you want to make infect 10 for 1v1, cool. But don't screw with the infect count in multiplayer games, you're ruining the archetype.
One last thing - if poison count was set to 15 and someone threw Distortion Strike on their Blightsteel followed by an Invigorate...would you really feel any better about being killed?
Black also has Grave Pact and friends. Again, if you're killed by Blightsteel, it's your fault.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
When I first started standard I played a b/g infect deck that was ok not great in standard. I really love trying to win alternatively in EDH (mill, poison, burn etc) I think its a challenge to build outside of the box and all, however infect like mill can be tricky to pull off. My group plays 20 poison. 10 is legal however. I've seen some pretty quick infect mimeoplasem decks where 10 poison makes it too broken, so 20 was a little more balanced.
Your playgroup needs a control player. Usually one well-timed counter or removal spell, or even a Fog, cripples an infect deck. (Well, in the case of some sort of fog machine like Spike Weaver with some source of counters, it works until Livewire Lash comes out, but that's easily dealt with.)
lol my playgroup consists of me and usually my buddy, and he is a TOTAL bant control freak. He almost always wins however if I played Mimeo BUG Infect with only having to hit him for 10...Jesus I seriously dont think he could handle it. We play EDH like it was 1v1 standard, but try not to build too broken of decks.
you can't really blame every player who gets killed via blightsteel.. not every deck can exile creatures/artifacts on a whim, and honestly, i dont know how often 'must answer' indestructible stuff pops up in your typical game.
infect really should stay at 10 though otherwise it'd lead to really irritating rules exceptions that just makes things more complicated than necessary.
Changing the Infect rule would eliminate the reason that I play Blightsteel Colossus: It wins immediately. I play it in a grindy control deck. It's a grind to establish control, and once control is established, I DON'T want to grind out the win. I want to win very quickly and prevent my opponents from drawing out of it. Having to take multiple turns per opponent to kill them just means that a once-reliable win condition will be no longer. Frankly, it would mean that I have to set up some sort of combo kill in order to convert a controlled board into a won game, and who wants that?
The fact that this thread was dormant for 2 years sorta says what people think about Infect... not a big enough deal in EDH to even care about.
Rules say 10. 10 is still not good enough for 98% of us to play infect decks.
It's not a big deal for anyone... until that one guy at your shop gets killed by infect and throws a hissy fit. Then the discussion must be had all over again.
I also think that a lot of time people new to highlander see infect as an amazing tool to be abused, it just takes them time to understand it's not good enough (especially if the others at the table choose not to put up with it).
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If someone is playing Icy Manipulator against you, you've already won.
I can't believe people complain about getting one shotted with a creature? So instead, I'll one shot you with my combo or Voltron deck. Must be your play group. A bunch of whiny teenagers.
While Gosu wasn't very diplomatic, they're right that being upset about infect is unreasonable and suggests a poor grasp of what is possible in the format.
Infect can be potent, but it's comparatively far from anything worthy of lamenting.
It's not a big deal for anyone... until that one guy at your shop gets killed by infect and throws a hissy fit. Then the discussion must be had all over again.
I also think that a lot of time people new to highlander see infect as an amazing tool to be abused, it just takes them time to understand it's not good enough (especially if the others at the table choose not to put up with it).
Yup. But luckily it's one of those discussions that goes like this: "I think that a lot of time people see infect as an amazing tool to be abused, it just takes them time to understand it's not good enough (especially if the others at the table choose not to put up with it)." There are a bunch of things like this in the game... Willow Satyr and Empress Galena are two cards that come to mind.
It's not a big deal for anyone... until that one guy at your shop gets killed by infect and throws a hissy fit. Then the discussion must be had all over again.
I also think that a lot of time people new to highlander see infect as an amazing tool to be abused, it just takes them time to understand it's not good enough (especially if the others at the table choose not to put up with it).
Yup. But luckily it's one of those discussions that goes like this: "I think that a lot of time people see infect as an amazing tool to be abused, it just takes them time to understand it's not good enough (especially if the others at the table choose not to put up with it)." There are a bunch of things like this in the game... Willow Satyr and Empress Galena are two cards that come to mind.
True, I rarely see seasoned vets coming in with Infect (spare maybe a Skittles in a The Mimeoplasm build). Once the newer or inexperienced player learn that it's not good enough, they move on to something else and then the playgroup forgets about it until the next new player wanting to try it. And then the cycle repeats.
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Quote from Galspanic »
If someone is playing Icy Manipulator against you, you've already won.
The only reason people have an issue with infect is that it's hard to interact with outside of not getting hit by it. It leaves you with the following scenarios:
I took 1 infect damage and can't stop every single proliferate card.
I took some infect damage and there's no way to "gain life" to negate it except for Leeches.
I just don't think infect is integrated into the game enough that it has sufficiently viable counterplay. It's like dredge in legacy. You're playing Magic: The Gathering while the dredge guy is playing a completely different game (incidentally, this is why WotC hates dredge). I think more infect support/counters would make it less of an annoyance.
Skittles? Who did you play? Most decks play enough removal to take out skittles...plus at 20 counters there seems no reason to play skittles because u might as well go for commander damage. At 15 its better but makes tainted strike and blightsteel much worse, and most other infect cards unplayable. I think 10 is fine, maybe 12 if you want to prevent blightsteel being a oneshot
Rules say 10. 10 is still not good enough for 98% of us to play infect decks.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I love my infect modern deck, but infect in EDH seems boring and kind of narrow. I don't doubt it could be powerful, especially cards like Blight Dragon, and legacy and vintage-level cards to make it even faster but I play EDH for the zany interactions and politics, not for "woops 10 poison you're dead t3"
This, basically. There are a few decks where infect is good:
Animar: Viral Drake is a must have for any blue deck with a lot of counters. (As is Inexorable Tide.)
Rafiq: Viral Drake and Blighted Agent. And Spinebiter.
Mimeoplasm: Blighted Agent or Spinebiter, some sort of way to dodge removal.
Any black Voltron: Tainted Strike is an alt wincon
Ghave and Marath: The +1/+1 counters can make any infect dude into a beast.
Doran: Priests of Norn and Tangle Angler: Infectious, and above curve.
Nekusar: Force an opponent to draw 10 cards. Or 5 with Furnace of Rath (though I'm not sure of a triple-colored card in a three-color deck that doesn't use green). Prosperity, Seizan, Perverter of Truth, Bloodgift Demon, and numerous wheel effects will help here.
But for the vast majority, it's just a thirdrate alt wincon.
On phasing:
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Your playgroup needs a control player. Usually one well-timed counter or removal spell, or even a Fog, cripples an infect deck. (Well, in the case of some sort of fog machine like Spike Weaver with some source of counters, it works until Livewire Lash comes out, but that's easily dealt with.)
On phasing:
I fundamentally disagree with this statement.
So you are saying that at all times you should run white or blue (the only colors that can deal with a hasted Blightsteel), plus always have the Rift, Swords, or Path in your hand out of your 99 card deck, and never, ever tap out or fall victim to land destruction? Or have a $45 Maze of Ith (and have it on the field at all times)?
Yeah... no.
OT: My shop hated infect while it was in standard, so decks that even tangentially use it get hated out fairly fast. But we agreed on 15 for the people who insisted on running it.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Wow... generalization much? Nice broad sweeps you're painting there.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Red and Green can both deal with a hasty Blightsteel. Green with fog effects, Red with instant-speed "I steal your creature for a turn" effects. Hell, black even has Darkness, even though almost nobody plays with it.
The point people miss when they try to up infect to 15 is this - An infect deck can do 10 damage to one deck very quickly. But can it do 10 damage to THREE decks before it gets hated out? The vast majority of the time, the answer is no. 15? An infect deck would never win with any consistency having to do 45 infect damage to the table. What I'm basically saying is, you want to make infect 10 for 1v1, cool. But don't screw with the infect count in multiplayer games, you're ruining the archetype.
One last thing - if poison count was set to 15 and someone threw Distortion Strike on their Blightsteel followed by an Invigorate...would you really feel any better about being killed?
On phasing:
lol my playgroup consists of me and usually my buddy, and he is a TOTAL bant control freak. He almost always wins however if I played Mimeo BUG Infect with only having to hit him for 10...Jesus I seriously dont think he could handle it. We play EDH like it was 1v1 standard, but try not to build too broken of decks.
Thanks Argentleman;)
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MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
infect really should stay at 10 though otherwise it'd lead to really irritating rules exceptions that just makes things more complicated than necessary.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
It's not a big deal for anyone... until that one guy at your shop gets killed by infect and throws a hissy fit. Then the discussion must be had all over again.
I also think that a lot of time people new to highlander see infect as an amazing tool to be abused, it just takes them time to understand it's not good enough (especially if the others at the table choose not to put up with it).
Infect can be potent, but it's comparatively far from anything worthy of lamenting.
Yup. But luckily it's one of those discussions that goes like this: "I think that a lot of time people see infect as an amazing tool to be abused, it just takes them time to understand it's not good enough (especially if the others at the table choose not to put up with it)." There are a bunch of things like this in the game... Willow Satyr and Empress Galena are two cards that come to mind.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
True, I rarely see seasoned vets coming in with Infect (spare maybe a Skittles in a The Mimeoplasm build). Once the newer or inexperienced player learn that it's not good enough, they move on to something else and then the playgroup forgets about it until the next new player wanting to try it. And then the cycle repeats.
This is an old thread, so I'm going to lock it. Feel free to create a new thread if you'd like to continue discussing the topic.
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