Hey everyone, just wanted to get the community consensus on how many poision counters until death in the format. I am pretty die hard on 10. (Its the way its written in the rules) and all.the infect creatures -blightsteel and skittles are bad (in combat) and I don't mind losing the game to it. The group I play with is fine with these rules. Although there's another group of people in the area that play with 20 reasoning that its like Your life total and should be doubled.
Now playing with both I heavily prefer 10 but They still swear by 20. So in the end I was wondering what everyone else did.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
either way if you play an EDH game and your packing infect your going to be the first to die (aside from the poor fella you took out first)
15 is for 2HG, not EDH.
There's really only a few scenarios where infect is used.
1) Skittles. It's an all-in aggro deck, and it's really not that good in well-defined metas. Sure, he can maybe 1-shot you with Hatred, Howl from Beyond, Lashwrithe, Nightmare Lash, or Strata Scythe, but he's very weak to Maze effects and to a lesser extent, tuck.
2) Blightsteel. Personally, I'm not a big fan of him as he helps your BlueOpponent more than he helps you. Also, his first swing is easy enough to make non-lethal by throwing two toughness in the way. Not really problematic, it's basically just a creature that's always big enough to kill if unblocked.
3) Tainted Strike. This one is a little cheesy, as it can turn 9+ damage from some normally unthreatening source into a one-shot kill out of nowhere, even in a combat you're not directly involved in. However, Mazes and instant removal take care of that nicely. Run mo removal.
4) Grafted Exoskeleton. A decent option for Voltron decks, though it's inherently very vulnerable as it can be stopped with artifact destruction in addition to the regular kind of creature stoppage.
5) Triumph of the Horde. It's an Overrun. It's one of the strongest, but is it really better than like, Beastmaster Ascension? I say probably not.
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There's really only a few scenarios where infect is used.
1) Skittles. It's an all-in aggro deck, and it's really not that good in well-defined metas. Sure, he can maybe 1-shot you with Hatred, Howl from Beyond, Lashwrithe, Nightmare Lash, or Strata Scythe, but he's very weak to Maze effects and to a lesser extent, tuck.
2) Blightsteel. Personally, I'm not a big fan of him as he helps your BlueOpponent more than he helps you. Also, his first swing is easy enough to make non-lethal by throwing two toughness in the way. Not really problematic, it's basically just a creature that's always big enough to kill if unblocked.
3) Tainted Strike. This one is a little cheesy, as it can turn 9+ damage from some normally unthreatening source into a one-shot kill out of nowhere, even in a combat you're not directly involved in. However, Mazes and instant removal take care of that nicely. Run mo removal.
4) Grafted Exoskeleton. A decent option for Voltron decks, though it's inherently very vulnerable as it can be stopped with artifact destruction in addition to the regular kind of creature stoppage.
5) Triumph of the Horde. It's an Overrun. It's one of the strongest, but is it really better than like, Beastmaster Ascension? I say probably not.
Add Scion to the list for firebreath Skittles tricks.
Firebreathing into doublestrike is typically better, but it's still an option dome take.
Grafted works well with Godo, as it makes him a 1 turn kill alone. Also Rafiq.
I've seen R/G decks run inkmoth nexus, for late game Kessig plays. Is a douche mode to fetch off of Prime Time.
I've seen a few equipment heavy decks run Plague Myr as accel that can pose a decent threat post-wrath.
Some swear by the Phyrexian Crusader as an excellent deterrent, which is immune to red removal, red wraths, and white removal. Some of the more popular options in the format.
Infect on a creature really makes your opponents hesitate to attack you, as even a chump block is then in your favor to a degree, and they don't want to weaken themselves later. Then, any equipment can turn the creatures into a decent threat in later stages of the game.
I love infect, i dont personally play it but i have friends who are diehard aggro players and posion kinda gives aggro a way to be successfull in this format. I actually won a game once with Caress of Phyrexia when i playing my buddy's Skithyrix deck, it was an awesome experience. But i wouldn't adovate upping the poison counter rule to 15 or 20, unless it is really taking over your meta. But then again i feel the same about Magister and Sorin as well, play em as they're printed!
We certainly discussed poison (esp when 2HG went up). We came to the conclusion that (in the format), 10 and 15 were pretty much the same (meaning if you're doing 10 Infect damage, you're probably doing 15--Triumph of the Hordes being a good example), and there's no format-warping Infect strategies happening, so there's no reason to change. At 10, it's a playable strategy but not all that good. At 20 would probably make it an unplayable.
We run 10 infect around here, although there's only one deck with an infect theme - a Mimeoplasm infect deck (I'll take my 1/1 infect flyer, and power it up with your dead Terastodon...) It's not overly effective if people are playing any removal, but left unchecked, it can be quite lethal very quickly.
Around here we chose to make it 20 poison. I attack with blightsteel colossus all the time and even with a 20 poison rule he's imposing.
Yeah, I agree that blightsteel is imposing, the only problem I have with 20 is it trivializes all other infect sources (besides the overrun but even then aren't regular overruns better) other than the blightsteel, skytherix takes 6 swings, putrefax 4 swings etc just seems not deadly considering the quality of the other creatures. But to each their own, I know some people that would rather be comboed out than die to poision even if it was 10000000 counters.
We certainly discussed poison (esp when 2HG went up). We came to the conclusion that (in the format), 10 and 15 were pretty much the same (meaning if you're doing 10 Infect damage, you're probably doing 15--Triumph of the Hordes being a good example), and there's no format-warping Infect strategies happening, so there's no reason to change. At 10, it's a playable strategy but not all that good. At 20 would probably make it an unplayable.
This. There is really no huge difference between 10 and 15 infect. And seeing as it's completely separate from your life total, it's usually irrelevant unless you're playing against a dedicated infect deck like skittles or rafiq, or with a solid infect backup like godo. In all these cases, it really doesn't matter.
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I actually just built up a Kaervek deck using Tainted Strike, Glistening Oil, Grafted Exoskeleton, and Phyresis. It wins through mass damage from multiple sources far more often than through infect. Though just a week ago it took a Niv-Mizzet player who was set up to combo from 40 to 3 life in one turn rotation just from Kaervek and an opponent's furnace of rath. Then again the deck runs Heartless Hidetsugu, Crypt Rats, Pestilence, Pyrohemia, and a few other hit everything effects as well, and the main win condition is Obliterate with a host of hosing and damaging enchantments in play. Needless to say I rarely actually use it it's most a "Hey you guys cool with this [insert what deck does here]" kind of thing or a "Oh THAT guy..." kinda thing.
As for topic at hand, 10 infect = sweet spot. 15 it borders on not worth the slots, and 20 it's just completely unworth using even with blightsteel.
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We certainly discussed poison (esp when 2HG went up). We came to the conclusion that (in the format), 10 and 15 were pretty much the same (meaning if you're doing 10 Infect damage, you're probably doing 15--Triumph of the Hordes being a good example), and there's no format-warping Infect strategies happening, so there's no reason to change. At 10, it's a playable strategy but not all that good. At 20 would probably make it an unplayable.
I agree with this.
Worth mentioning that the format of the deck makes infect inherently weak since there aren't enough infect creatures to populate an entire deck very well. Also, the fact that it's an aggro strat makes it weak in multiplayer, and being unable to build on other peoples' damage can be a problem. generally 1-shot effects are the best since they don't force you to overcommit to infect - I love skittles in glissa.
While it's true that 10 and 15 don't make much difference most of the time, that difference does mean Blightsteel isn't a one-shot any more. It would give players an opportunity to use sorcery-speed removal to save themselves.
While it's true that 10 and 15 don't make much difference most of the time, that difference does mean Blightsteel isn't a one-shot any more. It would give players an opportunity to use sorcery-speed removal to save themselves.
If you get one shot by blightsteel it is really your own fault. 10 is fine.
I agree with 10--for most of the reasons offered above. Aggro is very tough to pull off in EDH, non-Voltron aggro is next to impossible. There's just too many board wipers thrown around to win with a "weenie" strategy. Triumph of the Hordes let's a deck like Ezuri elves compete at a four person table (rather than just overrunning one opponent and then get wiped/combo'd out by the other decks at the table).
If you play in a more casual, creature-oriented meta, then 10 infect might feel cheap. I have an Azami deck that flashes in a Blightsteel Colossus as one of its finishers. One of my friends thought it was cheap. But my feeling is, if I can design a deck that can generate enough mana to cast a Blightsteel Colossus, and find a way to give it haste, then you can take the infect to the face.
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We already had this discussion, i was on the 15 to 20 countyers wagon, but majority here seems to think tht infect is a no problem, and Sheldon confirmed it in this thread.
So i made an 1v1 Skithyrix deck and launched MTGO.
It took me only 3 games (all won) to have an opponent blacklisting me.
I guess there is some sort of disparity between oppinion of this board (and RC) and reaction of people when you OS them.
Was Skithyrix the commander? Because that card was banned as a commander for a reason. Also, I would say there is a big difference between infect in multiplayer and in 1v1.
"For me metaphysics means something more like realism. That there is a reality that escapes any of its manifestations. You can never be quite sure what it is, but you can offer some description of what the structures of reality are." Graham Harman, The Prince and the Wolf
Was Skithyrix the commander? Because that card was banned as a commander for a reason. Also, I would say there is a big difference between infect in multiplayer and in 1v1.
Now playing with both I heavily prefer 10 but They still swear by 20. So in the end I was wondering what everyone else did.
I could have sworn i heard 15 somewhere.
either way if you play an EDH game and your packing infect your going to be the first to die (aside from the poor fella you took out first)
15 is for 2HG, not EDH.
There's really only a few scenarios where infect is used.
1) Skittles. It's an all-in aggro deck, and it's really not that good in well-defined metas. Sure, he can maybe 1-shot you with Hatred, Howl from Beyond, Lashwrithe, Nightmare Lash, or Strata Scythe, but he's very weak to Maze effects and to a lesser extent, tuck.
2) Blightsteel. Personally, I'm not a big fan of him as he helps your Blue Opponent more than he helps you. Also, his first swing is easy enough to make non-lethal by throwing two toughness in the way. Not really problematic, it's basically just a creature that's always big enough to kill if unblocked.
3) Tainted Strike. This one is a little cheesy, as it can turn 9+ damage from some normally unthreatening source into a one-shot kill out of nowhere, even in a combat you're not directly involved in. However, Mazes and instant removal take care of that nicely. Run mo removal.
4) Grafted Exoskeleton. A decent option for Voltron decks, though it's inherently very vulnerable as it can be stopped with artifact destruction in addition to the regular kind of creature stoppage.
5) Triumph of the Horde. It's an Overrun. It's one of the strongest, but is it really better than like, Beastmaster Ascension? I say probably not.
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Infect is also decent with Rafiq of the Many, but even then it isn't much of a problem, seeing as how most infect creatures are easy to deal with.
I agree, the only infect Rafiq is incredible with is Putrefax.
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Add Scion to the list for firebreath Skittles tricks.
Firebreathing into doublestrike is typically better, but it's still an option dome take.
Grafted works well with Godo, as it makes him a 1 turn kill alone. Also Rafiq.
I've seen R/G decks run inkmoth nexus, for late game Kessig plays. Is a douche mode to fetch off of Prime Time.
I've seen a few equipment heavy decks run Plague Myr as accel that can pose a decent threat post-wrath.
I personally think Viridian Corrupter is a great EDH card.
Some swear by the Phyrexian Crusader as an excellent deterrent, which is immune to red removal, red wraths, and white removal. Some of the more popular options in the format.
Infect on a creature really makes your opponents hesitate to attack you, as even a chump block is then in your favor to a degree, and they don't want to weaken themselves later. Then, any equipment can turn the creatures into a decent threat in later stages of the game.
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Tainted Strike is a lot more common, and has been the unexpected demise of many people,especially in my wife's Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter tribal vampire deck, and my son's Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck (Infected double striking trampling firebreathing Dragon Tyrant is a mean SOB).
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Yeah, I agree that blightsteel is imposing, the only problem I have with 20 is it trivializes all other infect sources (besides the overrun but even then aren't regular overruns better) other than the blightsteel, skytherix takes 6 swings, putrefax 4 swings etc just seems not deadly considering the quality of the other creatures. But to each their own, I know some people that would rather be comboed out than die to poision even if it was 10000000 counters.
In my mono-blue cantrip deck, poison is one of the primary win conditions. I load an Inkmoth Nexus or a Blighted Agent up with a Strata Scythe or a Runechanter's Pike (Or both) and one shot people.
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This. There is really no huge difference between 10 and 15 infect. And seeing as it's completely separate from your life total, it's usually irrelevant unless you're playing against a dedicated infect deck like skittles or rafiq, or with a solid infect backup like godo. In all these cases, it really doesn't matter.
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I used to run a Kaervek the Merciless deck that used Grafted Exoskeleton orGlistening Oil to power out some quick wins or to scare people from playing their large spells.
I actually just built up a Kaervek deck using Tainted Strike, Glistening Oil, Grafted Exoskeleton, and Phyresis. It wins through mass damage from multiple sources far more often than through infect. Though just a week ago it took a Niv-Mizzet player who was set up to combo from 40 to 3 life in one turn rotation just from Kaervek and an opponent's furnace of rath. Then again the deck runs Heartless Hidetsugu, Crypt Rats, Pestilence, Pyrohemia, and a few other hit everything effects as well, and the main win condition is Obliterate with a host of hosing and damaging enchantments in play. Needless to say I rarely actually use it it's most a "Hey you guys cool with this [insert what deck does here]" kind of thing or a "Oh THAT guy..." kinda thing.
As for topic at hand, 10 infect = sweet spot. 15 it borders on not worth the slots, and 20 it's just completely unworth using even with blightsteel.
That said, I will fight to the death that if no one stipulates before the game, it is 10.
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I agree with this.
Worth mentioning that the format of the deck makes infect inherently weak since there aren't enough infect creatures to populate an entire deck very well. Also, the fact that it's an aggro strat makes it weak in multiplayer, and being unable to build on other peoples' damage can be a problem. generally 1-shot effects are the best since they don't force you to overcommit to infect - I love skittles in glissa.
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If you get one shot by blightsteel it is really your own fault. 10 is fine.
If you play in a more casual, creature-oriented meta, then 10 infect might feel cheap. I have an Azami deck that flashes in a Blightsteel Colossus as one of its finishers. One of my friends thought it was cheap. But my feeling is, if I can design a deck that can generate enough mana to cast a Blightsteel Colossus, and find a way to give it haste, then you can take the infect to the face.
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"For me metaphysics means something more like realism. That there is a reality that escapes any of its manifestations. You can never be quite sure what it is, but you can offer some description of what the structures of reality are." Graham Harman, The Prince and the Wolf
Was Skithyrix the commander? Because that card was banned as a commander for a reason. Also, I would say there is a big difference between infect in multiplayer and in 1v1.
WG Gaddock Teeg and the Reveillark Experience [M][c]
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"For me metaphysics means something more like realism. That there is a reality that escapes any of its manifestations. You can never be quite sure what it is, but you can offer some description of what the structures of reality are." Graham Harman, The Prince and the Wolf
Except he isn't banned.