Hey everyone! I've been playing Karador for almost 6 months now and have a good understanding of what I want and need the deck to do while playing. I started this thread to pick peoples brains on the topic of opposing grave hate.
It's obviously the biggest pain in our butts but for a while I've been wondering if it is really worth it to temporarily ward it off with things like True Believer and Null Rod. The thought is that I've usually used a slot of my Buried Alive or some tutor just in case the opponent has drawn hate, but I never really know until they kill my gravehate hate and wipe my yard anyway.
So the question is do you guys/gals think it's better to just let them kill our yard when something scary hits it so we aren't throwing more useful stuff into it for that one piece of hate to get when they finally find thier kill spell?
I think the answer depends on your meta. Serious playgroups will only allow GY shenanigans from a deck such as Karador so much before they really start throwing in the hate, where as a casual group might not ever really catch on.
For myself, I tend to rotate Karador in and out of rotation. He's incredibly powerful when people aren't hating him out, but on the flipside, he's so easy to hate out and every color can do it. I stop playing mine when he starts getting hated on, and then once it's cooled off and people have removed the hate cards from their deck in favor of cards that are conducive to their own strategies, that's when I break him out again.
I think this goes back to the idea of "your deck should be able to win without ever playing your commander." Your deck should have the cards in it to deal with just about anything, but you shouldn't rely too heavily on any one strategy (ie. graveyard).
@ xaios I have a play group that just throws grave hate in anyway as a "just in case" and sometimes it does just kill me, others I can run through it and still secure a win.
I can also goad people into shooting for their hate sometimes by throwing good cards in the bin and wait for them to throw down a Relic or a Bog so that I can go on about my business without losing too much.
But in response to your post, the grave hate will never leave their decks. We have 3 grave based deck romping around so...
My Karador deck will often win without casting Karador. I think one of the important things to do when playing him is showing your group that "I don't need Karador to win so it's wasteful to pack the hate". Let them hate, but don't put all your eggies in one basket/graveyard. Don't get me wrong, every couple of games play him and abuse the heck out of him if you can, but don't make it a mainstay. I think staying multi-dimensional is key to anyone ever letting you have a graveyard.
@ Neo/burninate My deck (in my sig) is able to win without Karador, but my meta doesn't run tucking so "why play without him?" is kinda my thought. Winning without the commander is a great deckbuilding strategy, and this deck can, but with the General it's just obcene. Also the deck doesn't just use Karador, there is a whole recursion suite so it's a grave based deck. Not just "Karador recurs good stuff". So the hate is still relevant.
Being able to win without him doesn't only apply to when he is tucked, but in your case, when your graveyard is exiled or otherwise unavailable. For those times when you can't deal with a graveyard lock, you need other options. Diversify and find the right balance between graveyard centric and non-graveyard centric cards.
@ xaios I have a play group that just throws grave hate in anyway as a "just in case" and sometimes it does just kill me, others I can run through it and still secure a win.
I can also goad people into shooting for their hate sometimes by throwing good cards in the bin and wait for them to throw down a Relic or a Bog so that I can go on about my business without losing too much.
But in response to your post, the grave hate will never leave their decks. We have 3 grave based deck romping around so...
Thanks for the reply!
Fair enough. If I was in your shoes I'd probably be finding a different deck to play, but you gotta follow your muse, so they so. Best of luck.
If you're that worried about it, You've got four-ish options:
1) Feldon's Cane
2) Elixir of Immortality
3) Flashing a Loaming Shaman
4) Pitching Ulamog, Kozilek, Darksteel or Blightsteel Colossii to any discard outlet in response.
In my (admittedly casual-leaning) meta, lots of folks run elixirs.
Just run a good amount of artifact/enchantment destruction and don't worry about it otherwise. I had my graveyard exiled 7 times by bojuka bogs and relics and still won the game without too much trouble.
@ Phoenix I've done that too, although it was only about 4 times. lolz
@ everyone. Idk. I've kinda already answered my question and want this to turn into just general disscusion. The idea though wasn't a question of whether or not I could win with/without my general or yard or what to stop grave hate with. It is "Is gravehate hate worth the slot?" I'm leaning now towards "no, my (yard's) death...will come when it will come" but others may come to another conclusion on it. Thanks for the imput guys
Well, Ivory Mask effects are not worth the slot just for protection, no.
The correct principle is, as above, to be "multi-dimensional".
One specific piece of advice I do have in that direction is to pack some global discard. In a recursion deck, discard doesn't hurt you as bad. I should know from playing my discard/stax deck. Anyway, you hit Timmy with some discard, and not knowing your deck, the first things he will pitch are these situationally relevant cards like Crypt and spot removal. He's not pitching Primeval Titan or any of his 4-6 cc fatties, which conveniently, you can deal with much more easily.
I run a Karador deck, so I figure I'll throw my two cents in. I honestly think it depends on what kind of grave hate they have. Stuff like Bojuka Bog, meh. Just let it happen. Cheap, repeatable, targeted hate like Withered Wretch or Scavenging Ooze, on the other hand, are a lot more scary, and should be dealt with as soon as possible. Luckily, in your colors that's really easy to do.
Like the others in this thread, I only cast Karador in a fraction of my games -- he's mostly there to ensure that I have something to do when I run out of gas in my hand. All-at-once grave hate can be rebuilt from fairly easily. It's the selective deny-you-specific-cards-when-you-need-them variety that scares me.
I run a Karador deck, so I figure I'll throw my two cents in. I honestly think it depends on what kind of grave hate they have. Stuff like Bojuka Bog, meh. Just let it happen. Cheap, repeatable, targeted hate like Withered Wretch or Scavenging Ooze, on the other hand, are a lot more scary, and should be dealt with as soon as possible. Luckily, in your colors that's really easy to do.
Like the others in this thread, I only cast Karador in a fraction of my games -- he's mostly there to ensure that I have something to do when I run out of gas in my hand. All-at-once grave hate can be rebuilt from fairly easily. It's the selective deny-you-specific-cards-when-you-need-them variety that scares me.
Completely agree. Scavenging Ooze is more of a problem. A guy at my LGS plays Omnath, and it is the scariest card in his deck. He can run it out at any point, and with all the mana doublers, can basically exile my graveyard (~30 cards). On the flip side, it can sit in play for a string of turns and slowly peck away at my graveyard until all I have left is useless chaff.
I am strongly considering playing Jester's Cap. I can force someone to activate Relic of Progenitus and it ends up being a minor speed bump. Scavenging Ooze is a thorn in my side and when I try to take it out, it breaks apart into five more thorns.
As RT pointed out, library exile effects can act as great prevention. I really can't say enough about sadistic sacrament in this respect.
Probably the hardest part of playing a reanimator deck is learning not to overextend your graveyard. Reanimator decks are essentially the aggro decks of EDH, since they are basically trying to kill their opponents through very efficiently costed, powerful creatures as fast as they can. However, you have to make sure your graveyard doesn't get too scary or it becomes a very attractive hate target. In other words, having good threat management is key to playing reanimator well.
If you're playing Karador and you're having a hard time removing a 2/2 green creature, you're doing it wrong imho. If anything, Leyline of the Void is a much bigger problem, but once again just pack enough removal to handle it. Obviously, sometimes you get screwed and somehow can't find an answer, but if that's the case you were just going to lose to your opponent's Lurking Predators or whatever anyway.
The only anti-GY cards you'll ever need in Karador are Riftsweeper and Pull from Eternity. I run them both; they're amazing. Let them exile your GY all they want - on the crucial turn, just Pull from E your best card (perfectly possible to recur with E Witness, too) and go from there. Riftsweeper puts it in the library, but Karador should run Buried Alive, Fauna Shaman, Survival of the Fittest, etc. anyway - and Riftsweeper is recurrable really easily.
When I Pull from E'd my Karmic Guide to combo out for the win, everyone realized how futile their attemps to remove my graveyard had always been.
I'm gonna take a stab at this from a different angle, since my list doesn't play any combos. It has a lot of recursion chains (Karmic Guide and Reveillark do play a role here), but no "Oh, I win" combos. I originally ran True Believer to stop people from messing with my graveyard, but Relic of Progenitus and Grafdigger's Cage still get there, so I just took him out. One shot grave hate isn't an enormous deal, honestly. My deck wins through beats and the fact that nothing usually doesn't stay dead. Sure, they can exile my Avenger of Zendikar, but tey cn't stop Yosei, the Morning Star, Angel of Despair, and Rune-Scarred Demon too (usually anyway). Yes, if every player at the table throws their hate at you won't be able to guarantee a win, but it's still possible.
The last time I played with Karador at my local shop, I got Bojuka Bogged twice over the course of a single game, both times with a pretty good sized graveyard, and I still managed to recover well after each time. Having redundancy in your threats, answers, and ways to fill your grave really helps your resiliency without taking up space in your deck with more narrow answers to just graveyard hate.
If you're not playing a combo, then graveyard protection seems less important.
On the other hand, consider how many times someone in your playgroup has a 'target player' effect. Leyline of Sanctity does more than protect your graveyard. A lot of damage-based combos can't touch you if you have hexproof/shroud. Being the only one not hit by a Comet Storm seems pretty good.
Loading up on ways to destroy artifacts is also a meta call. In my group, you're never sorry to see a Disenchant effect, so having plenty of them to deal with Relics and Crypts isn't overkill.
If the cards are dead for you unless there's GY hate to deal with, it makes sense to go with the redundancy and careful playing route. If they're good regardless, put them in there.
I have to say, worse than a lot of the GY hate artifacts is Torpor Orb. I have yet to see a Karador deck that doesn't rely heavily on ETB effects. One of these on the table can really tell you how reliant your deck is on ETB. I had a game where both Torpor Orb and Humility were out and my deck turned from having 30 powerful creatures to 30 1/1 vanilla creatures in an instant.
It's obviously the biggest pain in our butts but for a while I've been wondering if it is really worth it to temporarily ward it off with things like True Believer and Null Rod. The thought is that I've usually used a slot of my Buried Alive or some tutor just in case the opponent has drawn hate, but I never really know until they kill my gravehate hate and wipe my yard anyway.
So the question is do you guys/gals think it's better to just let them kill our yard when something scary hits it so we aren't throwing more useful stuff into it for that one piece of hate to get when they finally find thier kill spell?
n0 c0mb0z Sharuum:symw::symu::symb:
Seton Druid Party:symg:
Drana Big Mana Black
Baru Landfall:symg:
Venser:symu:
Animar tempo:symu::symr::symg: (Retired)Azami, Lady of Card Advantage(Retired =[ )For myself, I tend to rotate Karador in and out of rotation. He's incredibly powerful when people aren't hating him out, but on the flipside, he's so easy to hate out and every color can do it. I stop playing mine when he starts getting hated on, and then once it's cooled off and people have removed the hate cards from their deck in favor of cards that are conducive to their own strategies, that's when I break him out again.
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
So yeah, keep that Slice in Twain to deal with their Grafdigger's Cage/Leyline of the Void, but your deck should not be completely shut down after a Bojuka Bog either.
I can also goad people into shooting for their hate sometimes by throwing good cards in the bin and wait for them to throw down a Relic or a Bog so that I can go on about my business without losing too much.
But in response to your post, the grave hate will never leave their decks. We have 3 grave based deck romping around so...
Thanks for the reply!
n0 c0mb0z Sharuum:symw::symu::symb:
Seton Druid Party:symg:
Drana Big Mana Black
Baru Landfall:symg:
Venser:symu:
Animar tempo:symu::symr::symg: (Retired)Azami, Lady of Card Advantage(Retired =[ )edit: bah, like Neo said.
Thanks for the replies.
n0 c0mb0z Sharuum:symw::symu::symb:
Seton Druid Party:symg:
Drana Big Mana Black
Baru Landfall:symg:
Venser:symu:
Animar tempo:symu::symr::symg: (Retired)Azami, Lady of Card Advantage(Retired =[ )Fair enough. If I was in your shoes I'd probably be finding a different deck to play, but you gotta follow your muse, so they so. Best of luck.
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
1) Feldon's Cane
2) Elixir of Immortality
3) Flashing a Loaming Shaman
4) Pitching Ulamog, Kozilek,
Darksteel or Blightsteel Colossiito any discard outlet in response.In my (admittedly casual-leaning) meta, lots of folks run elixirs.
@ everyone. Idk. I've kinda already answered my question and want this to turn into just general disscusion. The idea though wasn't a question of whether or not I could win with/without my general or yard or what to stop grave hate with. It is "Is gravehate hate worth the slot?" I'm leaning now towards "no, my (yard's) death...will come when it will come" but others may come to another conclusion on it. Thanks for the imput guys
n0 c0mb0z Sharuum:symw::symu::symb:
Seton Druid Party:symg:
Drana Big Mana Black
Baru Landfall:symg:
Venser:symu:
Animar tempo:symu::symr::symg: (Retired)Azami, Lady of Card Advantage(Retired =[ )The correct principle is, as above, to be "multi-dimensional".
One specific piece of advice I do have in that direction is to pack some global discard. In a recursion deck, discard doesn't hurt you as bad. I should know from playing my discard/stax deck. Anyway, you hit Timmy with some discard, and not knowing your deck, the first things he will pitch are these situationally relevant cards like Crypt and spot removal. He's not pitching Primeval Titan or any of his 4-6 cc fatties, which conveniently, you can deal with much more easily.
Like the others in this thread, I only cast Karador in a fraction of my games -- he's mostly there to ensure that I have something to do when I run out of gas in my hand. All-at-once grave hate can be rebuilt from fairly easily. It's the selective deny-you-specific-cards-when-you-need-them variety that scares me.
Thanks for the imput, all.
n0 c0mb0z Sharuum:symw::symu::symb:
Seton Druid Party:symg:
Drana Big Mana Black
Baru Landfall:symg:
Venser:symu:
Animar tempo:symu::symr::symg: (Retired)Azami, Lady of Card Advantage(Retired =[ )The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Completely agree. Scavenging Ooze is more of a problem. A guy at my LGS plays Omnath, and it is the scariest card in his deck. He can run it out at any point, and with all the mana doublers, can basically exile my graveyard (~30 cards). On the flip side, it can sit in play for a string of turns and slowly peck away at my graveyard until all I have left is useless chaff.
I am strongly considering playing Jester's Cap. I can force someone to activate Relic of Progenitus and it ends up being a minor speed bump. Scavenging Ooze is a thorn in my side and when I try to take it out, it breaks apart into five more thorns.
Probably the hardest part of playing a reanimator deck is learning not to overextend your graveyard. Reanimator decks are essentially the aggro decks of EDH, since they are basically trying to kill their opponents through very efficiently costed, powerful creatures as fast as they can. However, you have to make sure your graveyard doesn't get too scary or it becomes a very attractive hate target. In other words, having good threat management is key to playing reanimator well.
Isperia, Supreme Judge: Control
Malfegor: Control
When I Pull from E'd my Karmic Guide to combo out for the win, everyone realized how futile their attemps to remove my graveyard had always been.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
On the other hand, consider how many times someone in your playgroup has a 'target player' effect. Leyline of Sanctity does more than protect your graveyard. A lot of damage-based combos can't touch you if you have hexproof/shroud. Being the only one not hit by a Comet Storm seems pretty good.
Loading up on ways to destroy artifacts is also a meta call. In my group, you're never sorry to see a Disenchant effect, so having plenty of them to deal with Relics and Crypts isn't overkill.
If the cards are dead for you unless there's GY hate to deal with, it makes sense to go with the redundancy and careful playing route. If they're good regardless, put them in there.
I have to say, worse than a lot of the GY hate artifacts is Torpor Orb. I have yet to see a Karador deck that doesn't rely heavily on ETB effects. One of these on the table can really tell you how reliant your deck is on ETB. I had a game where both Torpor Orb and Humility were out and my deck turned from having 30 powerful creatures to 30 1/1 vanilla creatures in an instant.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck: