I play Kaalia in EDH, and the past few games I've played consisted of the entirety of the game sitting and trying to get a spell to resolve so that I can interact with the board. All my artifacts get removed, sac effects targeting me, long after my deck's really even threatening. Who cares if Kaalia gets lightning greaves on her late game to finally put a dragon into play?
I find myself in the situation a lot where I'm hammered because I could theoretically play something for free if my general makes it back to my turn and attacks, yet I have not seen anything degenerate enough to warrant it. I don't know of any 20/20 double-strike trampling demons that I could cheat in, and I don't have land ramp or really efficient card draw to balance it out. I end up just sitting around until I either scoop and try to change the deck or someone combos out after being left alone the entire game.
On one hand, I know that there are powerful generals that require that kind of attention. Zur, Uril, Mimeoplasm, perhaps, but not Kaalia. Once she costs 6, her ability's practically pointless, and a well-timed wrath pretty much locks it down pretty hard. Making the game 1 player shorter than necessary seems like a disproportionate response when EDH games generally see countless board wipes and exile effects.
Am I wrong? What other generals generate this much hate and how do you combat it?
Kaalia is a general my friend played. I don't think he got to attack with her more than 20 times in the past 8 months. He always takes obnoxiously dangerous generals I don't let hit. Protect Kaalia. I NEVER will let her swing if I can help it unless for some reason I know he will not swing at me (vows).
His two generals:
Uril
Kaalia
Yea... He always got targeted first with Uril so did Kaalia instead.
Joira of the Ghitu gets most of my hate, but it's deserved. As far as my own decks, I don't really play any hated generals - but then, I prefer to usually use less common choices. Right now, my 3 decks I play are Ertai, the Corrupted; Adun Oakenshield; And Thrun, the Last Troll. None of the 3 really draw a ton of hate.
The problem you're going to have is, if your meta really dislikes that general, there's not a lot you can do to combat it. I know that saying "Just change generals" isn't what you want to hear - but if you want to avoid playing archenemy the whole game, it might be worth considering finding a general that they hate less.
Kaalia is a general my friend played. I don't think he got to attack with her more than 20 times in the past 8 months. He always takes obnoxiously dangerous generals I don't let hit. Protect Kaalia. I NEVER will let her swing if I can help it unless for some reason I know he will not swing at me (vows).
His two generals:
Uril
Kaalia
Yea... He always got targeted first with Uril so did Kaalia instead.
Ironically enough, my first EDH deck was Uril and I eventually stopped playing it because of that same thing, however, I was far more interactive due to having the mana to play spells regardless.
With Kaalia, I can't ramp (because mana rocks get destroyed too easily and land fetch is hard if you're not green) so anything I would have cheated in becomes a dead card, or I play out lands and burn my hand out trying to avoid blowouts from other players.
Kaalia is actually a very strong general, even when casting her for 6, 8 or 10.
Since you aren't in green, you need to utilize artifact ramp to get her out faster, or be able to recast her later. Cards like Sol Ring, Orzhov Signet, Mox Opal (maybe), Darksteel Ingot and other ramp artifacts that cost 1 or 2 will really help to cast her.
Do you have a link to your decklist? It would be good to know the current power-level of your deck and what you are playing.
If everyone is wasting removal on artifacts, it sounds like your EDH group is pretty hateful. Ya a turn 1/2 sol ring probably needs an answer if anyone has one, or you keep that guy in check, but I normally don't hit ramp artifact unless it warranted, because things like Greaves and Boots are more dangerous (along with any other random nasty artifact someone may be playing).
Kaalia can be great 1v1 with her normal ramp and swing strat. If you want to keep that style in multiplayer, I'd wait it out and let other players grab the heat first, so that it's safe(r) for her to come out.
When I started realizing I had to do this, some people said "****, I spent the whole game waiting to spell crumple or oblation kaalia" as they lost. This also leads me to want to change out some cards to make sure I can do things early game if I cant ramp and protect her.
Also, a big a/d/d like Skithiryx can take the heat off of kaalia if you need to drop her for a rakdos or something. They now have to chose what to remove unless they can and want to wipe the board. Before people started realizing what was going on, it was great watching them tunnel vision kaalia in my command zone as I hardcasted a/d/d's.
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
It sounds like you are in a bit of a pickle, ha. Kaalia does indeed draw everyone's fire, but Drizzle does have good suggestions. I also just wrote a Primer on this particular general, take a look in my sig and maybe that can help you as well(my list is built for 1v1 though) but I still think it may be of usefulness as I have a special "multiplayer board" I use if I'm not playing 1v1.
In a multiplayer game, don't try to bust out of the gates early; just slowly build up your board and keep yourself alive. Play the political game, then bring your forces to bear.
The reason why Kaalia gets murdered is fear of the unknown and surprise. Other players don't know what you have in your hand and if they let her swing they are getting attacked by something unexpected. Even if it is not dangerous most the time they don't want to take that chance. The same effect happens with sneak attack. I stopped playing it because it never stuck more then a turn.
Most of the nasty stuff she brings in is expensive to hardcast, and in my own opinion, WOTC must have been high when they designed her. If she works, she generally wins, but because of how powerful she is, she gets hated on, maybe the worst of any general.
How is that different than Zur, the Enchanter? Because he deals in several of one of the hardest card types to remove, and he cheats them in from his deck, where as Kaalia interacts with the card type that is one of the easiest to remove, and is bound by what is actually in her hand. So I would say she is most certainly weaker than Zur, at the very least. WoTC can't be that out of their mind.
I find myself in the situation a lot where I'm hammered because I could theoretically play something for free if my general makes it back to my turn and attacks, yet I have not seen anything degenerate enough to warrant it
sneaking in Rakdos the Defiler after attacks is quite degenerate (athough he proabably aint swinging again after that)
perhaps you could run more ways to cheat your fatties into play like Urza's Incubator or quicksilver amulet. i know you said they hate out your artifacts, but white has some pretty good enchantment/artifact recursion.
you are also in the best reanimation colors, so that could be something... athough getting the fatties out is probably the first step.
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How is that different than Zur, the Enchanter? Because he deals in several of one of the hardest card types to remove, and he cheats them in from his deck, where as Kaalia interacts with the card type that is one of the easiest to remove, and is bound by what is actually in her hand. So I would say she is most certainly weaker than Zur, at the very least. WoTC can't be that out of their mind.
Are you implying WotC was perfectly sane and sober when they designed Zur?
On topic, I would agree with the advice given about focusing on casting other threats. For Kaalia specifically, I would focus on what ramp you do have access to. Land Tax and Tithe are White's best options, and throw in Armillary Sphere, Journeyer's Kite, and Thawing Glaciers from colorless, in addition to most of the mana rocks you can access.
With that ramp/acceleration package, you could benefit from running a high basic count and Magus of theBlood Moon. Even with a handful of nonbasics, you can still generate R under their effects.
Zur is way stronger than Kaalia. The Z-man has access to countermagic and can search up and insta-equip his own shroud, not to mention being able to search up things like Stasis. Kaalia is fair. Zur is broken. I think people just hate getting Rakdos or Iona dropped on them. That's why Kaalia gets hated out. The best answers have been mentioned. Just wait a bit to play her out, or get more tutors and shroud-equipment.
On topic, I would agree with the advice given about focusing on casting other threats. For Kaalia specifically, I would focus on what ramp you do have access to. Land Tax and Tithe are White's best options, and throw in Armillary Sphere, Journeyer's Kite, and Thawing Glaciers from colorless, in addition to most of the mana rocks you can access.
With that ramp/acceleration package, you could benefit from running a high basic count and Magus of theBlood Moon. Even with a handful of nonbasics, you can still generate R under their effects.
These were covered by "most of the mana rocks you can access," but thanks for the list. However, one of the op's problems was that all his mana rocks were getting blown up. Indomitable Archangel is a great way for Kaalia to protect her rocks.
Card that can turn the cards I mentioned into ramp include Walking Atlas, Terrain Generator, or Planar Birth (which can also help you recover from land wipes if that's a problem for you).
sneaking in Rakdos the Defiler after attacks is quite degenerate (athough he proabably aint swinging again after that)
perhaps you could run more ways to cheat your fatties into play like Urza's Incubator or quicksilver amulet. i know you said they hate out your artifacts, but white has some pretty good enchantment/artifact recursion.
you are also in the best reanimation colors, so that could be something... athough getting the fatties out is probably the first step.
I don't play Rakdos in mine, or Kaervek. It's relatively tame. I play several group-hug effects like Seizan, Perverter of Truth, and I've generally been against land destruction because I've no desire to restrict the ability of the players, because we're not playing for money or anything, we just want our spells to resolve, right?
I've been playing with a few new groups and in some cases there have been the usual power-gaming douchebags who jump on the new guy and then everyone follows suit regardless. Maybe I should start keeping mass LD in the deck until I know the group and they learn to back off.
These were covered by "most of the mana rocks you can access," but thanks for the list. However, one of the op's problems was that all his mana rocks were getting blown up. Indomitable Archangel is a great way for Kaalia to protect her rocks.
Card that can turn the cards I mentioned into ramp include Walking Atlas, Terrain Generator, or Planar Birth (which can also help you recover from land wipes if that's a problem for you).
They don't so much get blown up due to targeted removal, they get caught up in the inevitable sweeps of Akroma's Vengeance/Oblivion Stone. A lot of time they get hit the turn before I can start interacting again.
Yeah Zur is stronger than Kaalia - I temporarily forgot about him when talking about Kaalia hate. But yeah, if WOTC were smoking grass when they drew up Kaalia, it was crack for Zur.
I feel like Kaalia requires very specific creatures for her to be a big deal. Aside from Rakdos or Iona, who else is the biggest source of fear for the deck?
I've been playing with a few new groups and in some cases there have been the usual power-gaming douchebags who jump on the new guy and then everyone follows suit regardless. Maybe I should start keeping mass LD in the deck until I know the group and they learn to back off.
They don't so much get blown up due to targeted removal, they get caught up in the inevitable sweeps of Akroma's Vengeance/Oblivion Stone. A lot of time they get hit the turn before I can start interacting again.
Mass LD of your own makes Planar Birth even better.
Open the Vaults might be of value if you want to keep running mana rocks.
It would help to know whether this is a local or online meta.
If you're anonymous, you have to keep in mind that Kaalia and Uril both are generals that have very competitive mass LD/stax builds. People have their eye on that, and when they see mana rocks it just confirms it. So they will just keep their eye on you so you never get to that board state where you can geddon and win.
If you're in a playgroup and people know your deck, it's different. They will just go on what they know, decide who is more powerful, and go for them. Really the only two things you can do are tool your deck to take on multiple opponents or make a less powerful, casual seeeming deck.
I feel like Kaalia requires very specific creatures for her to be a big deal. Aside from Rakdos or Iona, who else is the biggest source of fear for the deck?
I don't know about the OP, but in mine, Moltensteel Dragon is a pretty big threat with a free Hatred attached to it.
You are aware of the potential damage that a general can do, and in turn you remove the threat before you have to deal with it. Good tatics, imo. Maybe doesn't seem like it at the time since the player is currently weak, but it takes the resolution of a single spell and their right back to being on top. The problem with that spell being your general is the it's so readily accessible.
Best thing to do, imo, is to build a deck that doesn't rely on your general so much. Certain general-centric architypes will have a harder time doing this of couse. Kaalia and Uril, already mentioned, but also generals like Rafiq, Sharuum, Zur, Skytherix...basically any deck where the objective is to abuse the accessability of your general.
I'd hate on those guys too.
ps. I did run a Sharuum build so I know what it's like to get hated on. When I re-adjusted so it wasn't as Sharuum dependant (and also wasn't as competitve), the hate went down.
personally i have a monoblue teferi deck that gets hated on a lot to the point that a friend of mine runs Wishes just so he can wish for hate cards at the right moment....
Honestly I don't have a real issue with it, thats the way a multiplayer format is supposed to be, if you sit down and everyone knows that your a threat if left alone, your going to lose if you cannot either withstand the hate or help direct it to someone else. Generals liek Kaalia, Uril, Zur just announce at reveal that "hey im a threat make sure i don't resolve/stay in play".
Yeah Zur is stronger than Kaalia - I temporarily forgot about him when talking about Kaalia hate. But yeah, if WOTC were smoking grass when they drew up Kaalia, it was crack for Zur.
Remember though, EDH wasn't as big as it is now when Coldsnap came out, and Zur wasn't specifically designed for EDH, even though he's insane in the format. Kaalia, on the other hand, was made explicitly for use in EDH.
I don't play Rakdos in mine, or Kaervek. It's relatively tame. I play several group-hug effects like Seizan, Perverter of Truth, and I've generally been against land destruction because I've no desire to restrict the ability of the players, because we're not playing for money or anything, we just want our spells to resolve, right?
WHAT YOU DONT PLAY RAKDOS?? just kidding :). i respect that. sorry about the accusation. i just assumed every single kaalia deck ran rakdos
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This is why I advise players, especially those new to EDH, not to pick up Kaalia. No matter how crazy your deck is or isn't, if players let Kaalia live, they get punished for it time and time again...so even if players haven't seen the potency of your deck yet, there will be games where it just dies over and over before you do anything. Everytime I've let a new players resolve Kaalia...no big deal...Avatar of Slaughter alongside a bunch of other fatties, followed by me getting crushed. While your deck might not be completely tuned, many players have experienced such a scenario, so they attack it aggresively. The result? If you haven't tuned your deck enough so you can just ramp out creatures naturally, you're stuck doing nothing with not enough mana to play anything, as RWB offers very little ramp and card draw compared to other colors...so you really have to work to include a lot of artifact mana and black card draw, along with Land Tax effects.
If you can't get a lot of cards to upgrade your Kaalia deck, you might want to consider a different general that doesn't garner the same level of hate. It's definitely not your metagame's fault, it's just that's what happens when players try to treat Kaalia players nicely because they are new to EDH only to get stomped on-- they aggressively go after any Kaalia player afterward so it'll never happen again. If you aren't prepared for that, playing Kaalia isn't fun.
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I play Kaalia in EDH, and the past few games I've played consisted of the entirety of the game sitting and trying to get a spell to resolve so that I can interact with the board. All my artifacts get removed, sac effects targeting me, long after my deck's really even threatening. Who cares if Kaalia gets lightning greaves on her late game to finally put a dragon into play?
I find myself in the situation a lot where I'm hammered because I could theoretically play something for free if my general makes it back to my turn and attacks, yet I have not seen anything degenerate enough to warrant it. I don't know of any 20/20 double-strike trampling demons that I could cheat in, and I don't have land ramp or really efficient card draw to balance it out. I end up just sitting around until I either scoop and try to change the deck or someone combos out after being left alone the entire game.
On one hand, I know that there are powerful generals that require that kind of attention. Zur, Uril, Mimeoplasm, perhaps, but not Kaalia. Once she costs 6, her ability's practically pointless, and a well-timed wrath pretty much locks it down pretty hard. Making the game 1 player shorter than necessary seems like a disproportionate response when EDH games generally see countless board wipes and exile effects.
Am I wrong? What other generals generate this much hate and how do you combat it?
His two generals:
Uril
Kaalia
Yea... He always got targeted first with Uril so did Kaalia instead.
The problem you're going to have is, if your meta really dislikes that general, there's not a lot you can do to combat it. I know that saying "Just change generals" isn't what you want to hear - but if you want to avoid playing archenemy the whole game, it might be worth considering finding a general that they hate less.
Ironically enough, my first EDH deck was Uril and I eventually stopped playing it because of that same thing, however, I was far more interactive due to having the mana to play spells regardless.
With Kaalia, I can't ramp (because mana rocks get destroyed too easily and land fetch is hard if you're not green) so anything I would have cheated in becomes a dead card, or I play out lands and burn my hand out trying to avoid blowouts from other players.
Since you aren't in green, you need to utilize artifact ramp to get her out faster, or be able to recast her later. Cards like Sol Ring, Orzhov Signet, Mox Opal (maybe), Darksteel Ingot and other ramp artifacts that cost 1 or 2 will really help to cast her.
Do you have a link to your decklist? It would be good to know the current power-level of your deck and what you are playing.
If everyone is wasting removal on artifacts, it sounds like your EDH group is pretty hateful. Ya a turn 1/2 sol ring probably needs an answer if anyone has one, or you keep that guy in check, but I normally don't hit ramp artifact unless it warranted, because things like Greaves and Boots are more dangerous (along with any other random nasty artifact someone may be playing).
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
When I started realizing I had to do this, some people said "****, I spent the whole game waiting to spell crumple or oblation kaalia" as they lost. This also leads me to want to change out some cards to make sure I can do things early game if I cant ramp and protect her.
Also, a big a/d/d like Skithiryx can take the heat off of kaalia if you need to drop her for a rakdos or something. They now have to chose what to remove unless they can and want to wipe the board. Before people started realizing what was going on, it was great watching them tunnel vision kaalia in my command zone as I hardcasted a/d/d's.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
In a multiplayer game, don't try to bust out of the gates early; just slowly build up your board and keep yourself alive. Play the political game, then bring your forces to bear.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
How is that different than Zur, the Enchanter? Because he deals in several of one of the hardest card types to remove, and he cheats them in from his deck, where as Kaalia interacts with the card type that is one of the easiest to remove, and is bound by what is actually in her hand. So I would say she is most certainly weaker than Zur, at the very least. WoTC can't be that out of their mind.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
sneaking in Rakdos the Defiler after attacks is quite degenerate (athough he proabably aint swinging again after that)
perhaps you could run more ways to cheat your fatties into play like Urza's Incubator or quicksilver amulet. i know you said they hate out your artifacts, but white has some pretty good enchantment/artifact recursion.
you are also in the best reanimation colors, so that could be something... athough getting the fatties out is probably the first step.
Check out NoShyfts, the webcomic that I illustrate for!
GUPrime Speaker ZeganaGU
GGG Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger GGG
GWB Teneb, the Harvester GWB
Are you implying WotC was perfectly sane and sober when they designed Zur?
On topic, I would agree with the advice given about focusing on casting other threats. For Kaalia specifically, I would focus on what ramp you do have access to. Land Tax and Tithe are White's best options, and throw in Armillary Sphere, Journeyer's Kite, and Thawing Glaciers from colorless, in addition to most of the mana rocks you can access.
With that ramp/acceleration package, you could benefit from running a high basic count and Magus of theBlood Moon. Even with a handful of nonbasics, you can still generate R under their effects.
Land destruction is an option as well.
None of those cards actually ramp you, they just help you continue making land drops. Signets, Talisman of Indulgence, Wayfarer's Bauble, Coalition Relic, Thran Dynamo, Mana Crypt, Darksteel Ingot, Worn Powerstone, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith & Mind Stone are all solid ramp options.
These were covered by "most of the mana rocks you can access," but thanks for the list. However, one of the op's problems was that all his mana rocks were getting blown up. Indomitable Archangel is a great way for Kaalia to protect her rocks.
Card that can turn the cards I mentioned into ramp include Walking Atlas, Terrain Generator, or Planar Birth (which can also help you recover from land wipes if that's a problem for you).
I don't play Rakdos in mine, or Kaervek. It's relatively tame. I play several group-hug effects like Seizan, Perverter of Truth, and I've generally been against land destruction because I've no desire to restrict the ability of the players, because we're not playing for money or anything, we just want our spells to resolve, right?
I've been playing with a few new groups and in some cases there have been the usual power-gaming douchebags who jump on the new guy and then everyone follows suit regardless. Maybe I should start keeping mass LD in the deck until I know the group and they learn to back off.
They don't so much get blown up due to targeted removal, they get caught up in the inevitable sweeps of Akroma's Vengeance/Oblivion Stone. A lot of time they get hit the turn before I can start interacting again.
I feel like Kaalia requires very specific creatures for her to be a big deal. Aside from Rakdos or Iona, who else is the biggest source of fear for the deck?
Mass LD of your own makes Planar Birth even better.
Open the Vaults might be of value if you want to keep running mana rocks.
If you're anonymous, you have to keep in mind that Kaalia and Uril both are generals that have very competitive mass LD/stax builds. People have their eye on that, and when they see mana rocks it just confirms it. So they will just keep their eye on you so you never get to that board state where you can geddon and win.
If you're in a playgroup and people know your deck, it's different. They will just go on what they know, decide who is more powerful, and go for them. Really the only two things you can do are tool your deck to take on multiple opponents or make a less powerful, casual seeeming deck.
I don't know about the OP, but in mine, Moltensteel Dragon is a pretty big threat with a free Hatred attached to it.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
You are aware of the potential damage that a general can do, and in turn you remove the threat before you have to deal with it. Good tatics, imo. Maybe doesn't seem like it at the time since the player is currently weak, but it takes the resolution of a single spell and their right back to being on top. The problem with that spell being your general is the it's so readily accessible.
Best thing to do, imo, is to build a deck that doesn't rely on your general so much. Certain general-centric architypes will have a harder time doing this of couse. Kaalia and Uril, already mentioned, but also generals like Rafiq, Sharuum, Zur, Skytherix...basically any deck where the objective is to abuse the accessability of your general.
I'd hate on those guys too.
ps. I did run a Sharuum build so I know what it's like to get hated on. When I re-adjusted so it wasn't as Sharuum dependant (and also wasn't as competitve), the hate went down.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
Honestly I don't have a real issue with it, thats the way a multiplayer format is supposed to be, if you sit down and everyone knows that your a threat if left alone, your going to lose if you cannot either withstand the hate or help direct it to someone else. Generals liek Kaalia, Uril, Zur just announce at reveal that "hey im a threat make sure i don't resolve/stay in play".
Remember though, EDH wasn't as big as it is now when Coldsnap came out, and Zur wasn't specifically designed for EDH, even though he's insane in the format. Kaalia, on the other hand, was made explicitly for use in EDH.
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
WHAT YOU DONT PLAY RAKDOS?? just kidding :). i respect that. sorry about the accusation. i just assumed every single kaalia deck ran rakdos
Check out NoShyfts, the webcomic that I illustrate for!
GUPrime Speaker ZeganaGU
GGG Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger GGG
GWB Teneb, the Harvester GWB
If you can't get a lot of cards to upgrade your Kaalia deck, you might want to consider a different general that doesn't garner the same level of hate. It's definitely not your metagame's fault, it's just that's what happens when players try to treat Kaalia players nicely because they are new to EDH only to get stomped on-- they aggressively go after any Kaalia player afterward so it'll never happen again. If you aren't prepared for that, playing Kaalia isn't fun.