So I kept messing around with the list online and I was having a hard time determining how many of what I needed. Like, I had like 11 counters, like 4 bounce spells or so, and about 10-15 spot removal. Then I fleshed it out with some good instant speed draw like Blue Sun, Brainstorm, Think Twice and stuff like that. Then I added some enchantments like Phy Arena and Necropotence.
Oh, and I'm trying to keep the CMCs at 3 mana or less, because I want to show my friends how awesome Dark Confidant is(they say he's "risky, and not that good of a card"). This is gonna be for a multiplayer setting.
Anyway, before I knew it, I would up with like only 20 slots available for critters which feels awful low for this style of deck. So I guess what I'm trying to figure out, is how many of what is a good basis for this style of deck?
I've got both u/b and u/w Sygg built, and I have to tell you, you might be disappointed with how much tempo you don't have in multiplayer.
You're facing three turns to your one, and setting yourself up to be the player who jumps to an early lead. Counterspells gain you no tempo because of multiple opponents, and since you're not in green, no amount of draw can make up for that because you will always be behind on mana.
My suggestion is to find things that affect all opponents. The abyss, Braids, etc. People complain about stax, but really all it is is obeying that rule - that you've found cards that affect all opponents.
There is also plenty of discard like that - Liliana of the Veil, etc, and one I really like is Delerium Skeins. Incorporate some recursion and with the sygg/confidant draw power and low cmc's you have, you're set.
Random cards I really like with Sygg are Bloodchief ascension, really anything that damages opponents during their turn for doing things they already do, such as playing land. Undermine is good too.
For creatures, I like Phantasmal Image, Metamorph, any clone really, and relatively cheap reanimating beaters like Ink-eyes. You just have to keep in mind keeping up with green decks with a lower amount of mana.
Alright. Good point. I guess I should have mentioned my playgroup online. Jor Kadeen metalcraft, Nin, the Pain Artist, and another Sygg, River Cutthroat(hence why I am going suicide tempo, a different take than he plays).
I'll probably wind up playing more 1v1 with it anyway though, as those big multiplayer games really lag my computer. :/
Anyways, yeah. Suicide-Tempo Sygg seems like it could be interesting. I'm currently forming a Sygg deck, but it's based around messing with other peoples things and beating them with their own stuff, while having relatively few win-cons of it's own
It's had a lot of tweaking done to it and many responses. Others have posted their take on the list in the thread as well. Another version of Sygg tempo uses a heavy artifact theme which I believe Emether posted in there on page 6 - post #83.
One of our friend build one like you talk about.
First, the deck was all black, all is creature were small one (casting cost max 2-3 and power min.2) and he was using Pox and Smallpox to gain advantage over the board.
He was also abusing Altar of Dementia and Tombstone Stairwells.
The deck was really high tempo and he did not have any trouble following the beat and we always play table with 5 player min.
ooh yeah, i saw the khymera list. i eventually went a built a tempo sygg over the suicide one and have been enjoying favorable results thus far, though i have only played...idk, roughly 20 matches or so?
so far it seems really good, and no one really wants to spend removal on my nezumi cutthroat or sage owl, so then they pick up a bonesplitter and start getting me an extra card. don't worry, i have other good tempo guys in here as well to help them along, like finkel, bob, wydwen, and the man-o'-war and his recent twin brother. but yes, all in all, it has felt very satisfying playing this style of aggro deck in a format where everyone assumes the biggest spell wins, ha.
and of course as expected, t2 bitterblossom in this style of deck is often good game for our opponents. it's just too incredible.
edit: what does everyone think about phyrexian negator in a build like this? is his drawback really too dangerous?
They let you get a draw engine started on turn 3. Pretty good. Anything with shadow is good too.
Yeah, I play the Ghoul. The Lacerator I recently cut because it was too hard to get him turned off and I had stronger things to do. I suspect Carnophage to play much the same as Lacerator. I'm unsure if I like Gravecrawler as I don't run as many zombies as I think he demands(but I seem to have more Faeries, so perhaps Mistbind Clique and Spellstutter Sprite are options.
It's had a lot of tweaking done to it and many responses. Others have posted their take on the list in the thread as well. Another version of Sygg tempo uses a heavy artifact theme which I believe Emether posted in there on page 6 - post #83.
These decks are 1v1, which is a very, very different thing. 1v1 is a much more degenerate format because you can just sleeve up tired old, unimaginative 50 counterspell mo o blue with a commander like Teferi, Azami, Clique and actually do better than you would have by actually investing thought. Not to say 1v1 is unplayable, it just requires a stronger "gentleman's agreement" and consequently leaves people without anything to talk about when the topic is optimization.
Multiplayer Sygg, straight aggro is putting yourself at the mercy of others. Enter: resiliency.
Take this short list - Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Nether Traitor, Nether Shadow, Reassembling Skeleton. They can't be stopped. Well, not nearly as easily, at least.
Of course, one damage a turn is not getting there. That's why you add Tezzeret, the Seeker and every equip worth the mana. With swords, you're getting the three damage per turn you need. Add a couple bodies that help you get artifacts, then finally, you will of course opt for the most high powered black aggro and blue clone.
Then make the rest of it game-wide discard, pox/deathcloud, and stax.
Don't forget Oona's Prowler. It may not be that good in multiplayer though :-/.
Edit: I'd personally go with equipment-orieneted Sygg list (like the one Emether had). I'm not one to netdeck, but I did really want to try that out.
WHY do I always forget about that card? Seems an ample enough replacement for my Nezumi Cutthroat. Guaranteed 2 damage, versus possible 3 damage, Flying versus Fear and one can't block(well the other shouldn't be blocking anyway). IDK, seems okay. Part of me thinks I'd rather run like Dungeon Geists instead of either of them, maybe.
Oh, and I'm trying to keep the CMCs at 3 mana or less, because I want to show my friends how awesome Dark Confidant is(they say he's "risky, and not that good of a card"). This is gonna be for a multiplayer setting.
Anyway, before I knew it, I would up with like only 20 slots available for critters which feels awful low for this style of deck. So I guess what I'm trying to figure out, is how many of what is a good basis for this style of deck?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
You're facing three turns to your one, and setting yourself up to be the player who jumps to an early lead. Counterspells gain you no tempo because of multiple opponents, and since you're not in green, no amount of draw can make up for that because you will always be behind on mana.
My suggestion is to find things that affect all opponents. The abyss, Braids, etc. People complain about stax, but really all it is is obeying that rule - that you've found cards that affect all opponents.
There is also plenty of discard like that - Liliana of the Veil, etc, and one I really like is Delerium Skeins. Incorporate some recursion and with the sygg/confidant draw power and low cmc's you have, you're set.
Random cards I really like with Sygg are Bloodchief ascension, really anything that damages opponents during their turn for doing things they already do, such as playing land. Undermine is good too.
For creatures, I like Phantasmal Image, Metamorph, any clone really, and relatively cheap reanimating beaters like Ink-eyes. You just have to keep in mind keeping up with green decks with a lower amount of mana.
I'll probably wind up playing more 1v1 with it anyway though, as those big multiplayer games really lag my computer. :/
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I see what you did there.
Anyways, yeah. Suicide-Tempo Sygg seems like it could be interesting. I'm currently forming a Sygg deck, but it's based around messing with other peoples things and beating them with their own stuff, while having relatively few win-cons of it's own
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299968
It's had a lot of tweaking done to it and many responses. Others have posted their take on the list in the thread as well. Another version of Sygg tempo uses a heavy artifact theme which I believe Emether posted in there on page 6 - post #83.
First, the deck was all black, all is creature were small one (casting cost max 2-3 and power min.2) and he was using Pox and Smallpox to gain advantage over the board.
He was also abusing Altar of Dementia and Tombstone Stairwells.
The deck was really high tempo and he did not have any trouble following the beat and we always play table with 5 player min.
so far it seems really good, and no one really wants to spend removal on my nezumi cutthroat or sage owl, so then they pick up a bonesplitter and start getting me an extra card. don't worry, i have other good tempo guys in here as well to help them along, like finkel, bob, wydwen, and the man-o'-war and his recent twin brother. but yes, all in all, it has felt very satisfying playing this style of aggro deck in a format where everyone assumes the biggest spell wins, ha.
and of course as expected, t2 bitterblossom in this style of deck is often good game for our opponents. it's just too incredible.
edit: what does everyone think about phyrexian negator in a build like this? is his drawback really too dangerous?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
There aren't many playable direct damage spells in edh, so it depends a bit on your meta. I'd run Phyrexian Totem over it though.
Are you playing the 2p 1 drops? (Vampire Lacerator, Carnophage, Gravecrawler, Diregraf Ghoul)
They let you get a draw engine started on turn 3. Pretty good. Anything with shadow is good too.
GRRWHazezon Tamar (Valakut)GRRW
UKami of the Crescent Moon (
Group Hug)UUHeidar, Rimewind Master [Mini-Primer]U
WKemba, Kha Regent (Stax)W
GEzuri, Renegade Leader [Primer]G
Yeah, I play the Ghoul. The Lacerator I recently cut because it was too hard to get him turned off and I had stronger things to do. I suspect Carnophage to play much the same as Lacerator. I'm unsure if I like Gravecrawler as I don't run as many zombies as I think he demands(but I seem to have more Faeries, so perhaps Mistbind Clique and Spellstutter Sprite are options.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
These decks are 1v1, which is a very, very different thing. 1v1 is a much more degenerate format because you can just sleeve up tired old, unimaginative 50 counterspell mo o blue with a commander like Teferi, Azami, Clique and actually do better than you would have by actually investing thought. Not to say 1v1 is unplayable, it just requires a stronger "gentleman's agreement" and consequently leaves people without anything to talk about when the topic is optimization.
Multiplayer Sygg, straight aggro is putting yourself at the mercy of others. Enter: resiliency.
Take this short list - Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Nether Traitor, Nether Shadow, Reassembling Skeleton. They can't be stopped. Well, not nearly as easily, at least.
Of course, one damage a turn is not getting there. That's why you add Tezzeret, the Seeker and every equip worth the mana. With swords, you're getting the three damage per turn you need. Add a couple bodies that help you get artifacts, then finally, you will of course opt for the most high powered black aggro and blue clone.
Then make the rest of it game-wide discard, pox/deathcloud, and stax.
Don't forget Oona's Prowler. It may not be that good in multiplayer though :-/.
Edit: I'd personally go with equipment-orieneted Sygg list (like the one Emether had). I'm not one to netdeck, but I did really want to try that out.
WHY do I always forget about that card? Seems an ample enough replacement for my Nezumi Cutthroat. Guaranteed 2 damage, versus possible 3 damage, Flying versus Fear and one can't block(well the other shouldn't be blocking anyway). IDK, seems okay. Part of me thinks I'd rather run like Dungeon Geists instead of either of them, maybe.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.