I'm under the assumption that counterspells aren't really all that important in edh. Every single one fails the first test of the edh gauge for a card: Does this generate me card advantage or not? And then, once you get to the really good counters, they begin to actually lose you card advantage, causing you to ditch cards or use up other resources.
Now I'm not going to say that I don't run a few counters in my decks, but I am saying that I'm seeing too many people run too many counterspells. In my decks that win the most, I run maybe 4-5 counters in them, seeing 1-2 of them per game. Assuredly, countering a key spell either to stop someone from going off, or to allow me to go off has won me a couple of games, but honestly I win more without ever even using a counter.
What usually wins out for me is using other, non counter based protection or just recurring whatever it is I need to help me win. Whether its my Karador deck that just recurs everything so counters are just slowing the inevitable, or its my Damia that just runs too many protection pieces, I am slowly beginning to realize that counters are just not the way to win games.
Another aspect here that I might add is that maybe many people have a hard time transitioning out of the 1v1 mindset, where indeed a good counter wall can definitely win you the game. But in edh, countering a whole bunch of spells just ends up making the table hate you, making your win that much harder to attain.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
I don't run many counterspells because of the reasons you've already stated. They're just not that powerful in EDH. I prefer to use more steal or disruption effects such as:
I find if you are running a combo deck or your facing a lot of combo decks running a decent amount of disruption is necessary. IE land destruction/Counterspells for if one spell resolves it often means game over.
However, if this is not the case they are not as important and is better to have less in most cases. It also depends on the competitiveness of the decks you will be playing against.
Its kinda like graveyard removal, its is necessary against graveyard based decks but you don't want it against non graveyard based decks.
The thing is that while a Counterspell may not in itself be card advantage, it can stop an effect that could result in another player either
a) Getting huge card advantage such as Consecrated Sphinx
b) Generating huge card disadvantage for you such as Myojin of night's reach
c) Plain out winning the game such as any number of combos.
Also, card advantage is not everything, tempo matters too. Stopping an 8 mana investment for 2 mana can be great.
Now people have noticed that relying solely on counterspells is a bad strategy. This is true. Counterspells, however, are still some of the most powerful tools in the game if used correctly.
The thing is that while a Counterspell may not in itself be card advantage, it can stop an effect that could result in another player either
a) Getting huge card advantage such as Consecrated Sphinx
b) Generating huge card disadvantage for you such as Myojin of night's reach
c) Plain out winning the game such as any number of combos.
Also, card advantage is not everything, tempo matters too. Stopping an 8 mana investment for 2 mana can be great.
Now people have noticed that relying solely on counterspells is a bad strategy. This is true. Counterspells, however, are still some of the most powerful tools in the game if used correctly.
I agree with the above, down to the letter.
That said, I only run three counterspells in my Sharuum deck, and they are strictly there as combo protection/disruption. There are games where I will hold a counter in hand all game, and feel much safer that way.
Commandeer is a 3 for 1 (if you're not hard casting it).
Cryptic command is still 1 for 1, unless you opt to draw a card.
Draining Whelk is 1 for 1 but you get maybe a significant sized beater.
Overwhelming intellect only hits creatures, is extremely hard to leave mana open for, but compensates in that it allows you draw maybe a good size of cards.
Mystic snake is a smaller version of whelk.
Spell contortion is a soft counter that suffers from the high mana cost.
Spelljack suffers again from the high mana cost problem.
Counters that cost more than three are generally not good to be run as protection. Yes they are powerful and can win you the game when used correctly and timed right, but that's not what I'm really talking about here. These counters are best utilized in a control/tempo deck, not in combo decks.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that counterspells are a bad thing, I'm just saying that I'm seeing a lot of people either use the wrong counters for their deck or are just using too many.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
I think we've made it clear that counterspells are definitely worthwhile in commander. To add my 2 cents, I try to only use counterspells that cost 3 or less, unless it does something special for me. For instance, cryptic command in my blink/bounce deck works well.
I had desertion in, but took it out. It sits at the tipping point for a counterspell that gives me a hefty advantage-to-mana cost ratio. It's hard to keep that mana open all the time though.
As you can see, these counterspells do double duty, but don't cost 5 cmc or more. Tucking a general, or exiling a key combo piece is a lot better than sending things to the gy, as recursion can be a *****.
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
IMO Mana Drain is the most powerful counterspell in the format. Had my solemn simulacrum countered once on turn 4 and the next turn the player cast tooth and nail with entwine
Forbid is great.. in the right deck. In edric or azami that card is broken, other then that it is unremarkable.
pact of negation is all coming back to the meta question. I wouldn't normally play this.
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IMO Mana Drain is the most powerful counterspell in the format. Had my solemn simulacrum countered once on turn 4 and the next turn the player cast tooth and nail with entwine
1 correction.... Any format.
Forbid is great.. in the right deck. In edric or azami that card is broken, other then that it is unremarkable.
I'd recommend Voidslime and Draining Whelk.
Whelk is great because when you counter a big spell, no one begrudges you hitting the spell's caster with a giant flier.
Voidslime because countering activated/triggered abilities is awesome and surprises people. For some reason everyone assumes their planeswalker ultimate will resolve, or their Eldrazi trigger, or their general's special ability, or their cycle, etc.
Commandeer is a 3 for 1 (if you're not hard casting it).
Cryptic command is still 1 for 1, unless you opt to draw a card.
Draining Whelk is 1 for 1 but you get maybe a significant sized beater.
Overwhelming intellect only hits creatures, is extremely hard to leave mana open for, but compensates in that it allows you draw maybe a good size of cards.
Mystic snake is a smaller version of whelk.
Spell contortion is a soft counter that suffers from the high mana cost.
Spelljack suffers again from the high mana cost problem.
I love Draining Whelk, because it's so easy to bounce it and counter again. Given infinite mana and a Capsize, you can counter everything
I don't personally know anyone that runs as many counters as the OP is stating. Most people I know run 3-5 at the MAX and these are things like Cryptic Command or Draining Whelk ETC.
If I run a lot of counters in a deck it because they do something else. I would rather have one to back me up just in case.
I play in a fairly combo heavy meta so I tend to run a lot of counterspells. A few decks I have run as many as 12 counterspells simply because the decks my friends play require that much hate. This reminds me of the spot removal is bad in EDH argument but at least you agree that counter magic has its uses
The only real reason to run counterspells is to prevent spells that instantly win the game. Like some of your Tooth and Nail , prime time, sphinx, time stretch type spells.
Youre not using counters to gain advantage, just to prevent yourself from being instantly killed. You really, really only need 3-5 total of this type if thats youre goal. A suite of mana drain, force of will, and hinder or spell crumple is generally enough in non combo oriented metas to stop your opponents degenerate plays.
Countering your opponents spells as a path to victory isnt a good strategy in multiplayer, in one on one it can be however.
How do you look at card advantage exactly? For example, UG edric aggro decks NEED counterspells. A wrath on turn 4 against that deck means they lose edric and probably a 2-3 weenies. In that situation, a counterspell (in my opinion) is actually card advantage since otherwise the wrather would result in card disadvantage.
I dunno, I do agree packing counters in all decks is a bad call but they are still good.
Every single one fails the first test of the edh gauge for a card: Does this generate me card advantage or not?
That's really not applicable in all situations, or even most situations. Try playing Spelljack in a fast environment. Or using Counterlash to defend your voltron general. Or keeping Desertion mana up when you combo off. In a lot of decks and metas, cheap ways to answer your opponent's expensive threats are absolutely the best way to go. Particularly if you want to play expensive threats on your turn.
My means of evaluating card advantage is A) Does this net me more cards, B) Will I get more than one use out of this card, or C) Will this take care of more than one threat?
Most counterspells do not adhere to to any of those and the ones that do aren't even that good typically. The best ones that fall into the above guidelines are cryptic when you opt to draw and Counterlash (which I had forgotten about entirely). The other ones are either extremely clunky to play with since they have high mana costs, have card disadvantage tied into them to cast them cheaply, or are restrictive in what they can hit.
But again, I am not saying that counterspells are a bad idea. I agree that one or two well placed counters are often necessary to win a game. Sometimes the only answer to a threat is a counter.
The whole purpose of starting this thread was to see what people thought was a reasonable number to run in a deck, not to debate whether counterspells are good, which I'm obviously on the good side.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
Based on the counterspells that I think are basically playable across the board in EDH as well as my own metagaming, I'd say that the proper number for counters that are specifically devoted to answering threats is something like 4-6. Utility counters (Spelljack, Counterlash, etc.) shouldn't take those slots.
Considering that your "purpose" was prefaced with an effectual disavowal of countermagic, you were pretty much asking for a good/not good (and why) debate. Additionally, the correct (or a "reasonable") number to run in any given deck is almost entirely subjective, especially given the diverse metagames and deck builds that Salvation's users bring to the table.
I only use counters in Edh to protect my win condition or to prevent me from dying, therefore I tend to play cheap counters. Delay is my favorite for this. Cheap and the suspend doesn't matter if you're going to win when it resolves.
Redirect is another one I always use. Works as a counter to that counter and there are always a bunch of brutal spells you can use it on
If I'm running green and the whole Nim Death Mantle thing with Sac lands. Or just the overall context of the deck.
I understand Tuck is really cool. But it's not as important to me in multiplayer as I expect most people try to keep everyone in check. Games turn Archenemy real quick.
The only real reason to run counterspells is to prevent spells that instantly win the game. Like some of your Tooth and Nail , prime time, sphinx, time stretch type spells.
Not true at all, I run counters almost exclusively to protect my game winning spells/ combos. There is no end-all, be-all rules for edh as many people claim on these forums. I really dislike it when people say things like "You shouldn't play any card that doesn't create CA" or "Spot removal/counters are bad in edh", this may be true for your casual playgroup but you cannot generalize this format like that as every meta is different. That said, the counters i utilize in my u/b Oona deck currently are: Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Mana Drain, Counterspell, Negate, Muddle the Mixture maindeck and Spell Crumple, Dispel and Redirect in my wishboard. Also listen to Secularon, Negate rocks!
Hmmm... what's the word on Decree of Silence? It's a hefty cost, but it's a 1-for-3 assuming you have no means to remove depletion counters (Hex Parasite, Vampire Hexmage, bounce permanent); I'm assuming little reason to cycle unless it's to stop a combo-win or something. And even beyond the countering the next 3 spells your opponents play, they'll all be reluctant to be the one wasting their spells to clear away the decree.
Cycling decree can actually be quite useful. It dodges everything but stifle effects and can slide by teferi and other "stop my opponent from stopping me" bs. It also produces card advantage, just not as much as the enchantment.
As an enchantment, it is pretty meh. It will rarely counter anything you would want to use a counter spell on, and will draw you plenty of hate.
Now I'm not going to say that I don't run a few counters in my decks, but I am saying that I'm seeing too many people run too many counterspells. In my decks that win the most, I run maybe 4-5 counters in them, seeing 1-2 of them per game. Assuredly, countering a key spell either to stop someone from going off, or to allow me to go off has won me a couple of games, but honestly I win more without ever even using a counter.
What usually wins out for me is using other, non counter based protection or just recurring whatever it is I need to help me win. Whether its my Karador deck that just recurs everything so counters are just slowing the inevitable, or its my Damia that just runs too many protection pieces, I am slowly beginning to realize that counters are just not the way to win games.
Another aspect here that I might add is that maybe many people have a hard time transitioning out of the 1v1 mindset, where indeed a good counter wall can definitely win you the game. But in edh, countering a whole bunch of spells just ends up making the table hate you, making your win that much harder to attain.
What are your guys' thoughts?
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
- Acquire
- Blatant Thievery
- Bribery
- Aura of Silence
- Capsize
etc...The counterspells I do run will always have an added effect other than just countering a spell. Cards like these:
The tuck effect of Hinder and Spell Crumple is very useful in EDH.
However, if this is not the case they are not as important and is better to have less in most cases. It also depends on the competitiveness of the decks you will be playing against.
Its kinda like graveyard removal, its is necessary against graveyard based decks but you don't want it against non graveyard based decks.
1 Arcane Denial
1 Hinder
1 Spell Crumple
1 Cryptic Command (If I can support the UUU)
1 Desertion
1 Draining Whelk
1 Broken Ambition
1 Induce Paranoia
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a) Getting huge card advantage such as Consecrated Sphinx
b) Generating huge card disadvantage for you such as Myojin of night's reach
c) Plain out winning the game such as any number of combos.
Also, card advantage is not everything, tempo matters too. Stopping an 8 mana investment for 2 mana can be great.
Now people have noticed that relying solely on counterspells is a bad strategy. This is true. Counterspells, however, are still some of the most powerful tools in the game if used correctly.
I agree with the above, down to the letter.
That said, I only run three counterspells in my Sharuum deck, and they are strictly there as combo protection/disruption. There are games where I will hold a counter in hand all game, and feel much safer that way.
Commandeer is a 3 for 1 (if you're not hard casting it).
Cryptic command is still 1 for 1, unless you opt to draw a card.
Draining Whelk is 1 for 1 but you get maybe a significant sized beater.
Overwhelming intellect only hits creatures, is extremely hard to leave mana open for, but compensates in that it allows you draw maybe a good size of cards.
Mystic snake is a smaller version of whelk.
Spell contortion is a soft counter that suffers from the high mana cost.
Spelljack suffers again from the high mana cost problem.
Counters that cost more than three are generally not good to be run as protection. Yes they are powerful and can win you the game when used correctly and timed right, but that's not what I'm really talking about here. These counters are best utilized in a control/tempo deck, not in combo decks.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that counterspells are a bad thing, I'm just saying that I'm seeing a lot of people either use the wrong counters for their deck or are just using too many.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
I had desertion in, but took it out. It sits at the tipping point for a counterspell that gives me a hefty advantage-to-mana cost ratio. It's hard to keep that mana open all the time though.
I run:
Arcane denial - replaces itself and too cheap to pass up, even if it gives cards to them
Spell crumple - a tuck
Hinder - a tuck
Faerie trickery - exile also
Dissipate - exile also
As you can see, these counterspells do double duty, but don't cost 5 cmc or more. Tucking a general, or exiling a key combo piece is a lot better than sending things to the gy, as recursion can be a *****.
I don't run forbid, pact of negation, mana drain etc because I don't own them. I'm not sure how I would fit them in either.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
IMO Mana Drain is the most powerful counterspell in the format. Had my solemn simulacrum countered once on turn 4 and the next turn the player cast tooth and nail with entwine
Forbid is great.. in the right deck. In edric or azami that card is broken, other then that it is unremarkable.
pact of negation is all coming back to the meta question. I wouldn't normally play this.
1 correction.... Any format.
And Damia!
Most of the good ones have been said though...
If I'm running counters, I run these:
Counterspell
Arcane Denial
Hinder
Spell Crumple
Mana Drain
Force of Will
Pact of Negation
Voidslime
Stifle
Sometimes:
Cryptic Command (Whenever possible)
Stoic Rebuttal (In decks where it's Counterspell #2)
Commandeer
Desertion
GRRWHazezon Tamar (Valakut)GRRW
UKami of the Crescent Moon (
Group Hug)UUHeidar, Rimewind Master [Mini-Primer]U
WKemba, Kha Regent (Stax)W
GEzuri, Renegade Leader [Primer]G
Whelk is great because when you counter a big spell, no one begrudges you hitting the spell's caster with a giant flier.
Voidslime because countering activated/triggered abilities is awesome and surprises people. For some reason everyone assumes their planeswalker ultimate will resolve, or their Eldrazi trigger, or their general's special ability, or their cycle, etc.
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If I run a lot of counters in a deck it because they do something else. I would rather have one to back me up just in case.
RBUThraximundarUBRRUNiv-Mizzet, the FiremindUR
BWGhost Council of OrzhovaWBWUBRGChild of AlaraGRBUW
WBRKaalia of the VastRBWGBSapling of ColfenorGB
They're actually very similar.
If you're using it on something relevant, it will be worth it 95% of the time.
GRRWHazezon Tamar (Valakut)GRRW
UKami of the Crescent Moon (
Group Hug)UUHeidar, Rimewind Master [Mini-Primer]U
WKemba, Kha Regent (Stax)W
GEzuri, Renegade Leader [Primer]G
Youre not using counters to gain advantage, just to prevent yourself from being instantly killed. You really, really only need 3-5 total of this type if thats youre goal. A suite of mana drain, force of will, and hinder or spell crumple is generally enough in non combo oriented metas to stop your opponents degenerate plays.
Countering your opponents spells as a path to victory isnt a good strategy in multiplayer, in one on one it can be however.
I dunno, I do agree packing counters in all decks is a bad call but they are still good.
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That's really not applicable in all situations, or even most situations. Try playing Spelljack in a fast environment. Or using Counterlash to defend your voltron general. Or keeping Desertion mana up when you combo off. In a lot of decks and metas, cheap ways to answer your opponent's expensive threats are absolutely the best way to go. Particularly if you want to play expensive threats on your turn.
Are the ones I would recommend first, in more or less that order. Adjust according to the speed of your meta and the type of deck you are running.
Edit: Guess I'm a little late to this party.
My means of evaluating card advantage is A) Does this net me more cards, B) Will I get more than one use out of this card, or C) Will this take care of more than one threat?
Most counterspells do not adhere to to any of those and the ones that do aren't even that good typically. The best ones that fall into the above guidelines are cryptic when you opt to draw and Counterlash (which I had forgotten about entirely). The other ones are either extremely clunky to play with since they have high mana costs, have card disadvantage tied into them to cast them cheaply, or are restrictive in what they can hit.
But again, I am not saying that counterspells are a bad idea. I agree that one or two well placed counters are often necessary to win a game. Sometimes the only answer to a threat is a counter.
The whole purpose of starting this thread was to see what people thought was a reasonable number to run in a deck, not to debate whether counterspells are good, which I'm obviously on the good side.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
Considering that your "purpose" was prefaced with an effectual disavowal of countermagic, you were pretty much asking for a good/not good (and why) debate. Additionally, the correct (or a "reasonable") number to run in any given deck is almost entirely subjective, especially given the diverse metagames and deck builds that Salvation's users bring to the table.
Redirect is another one I always use. Works as a counter to that counter and there are always a bunch of brutal spells you can use it on
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
My main choices in Multiplayer EDH
Negate
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Forbid
Venser
Force of Will
Then possibly
Mystic Snake
Dessertion
Draining Whelk
Pact of Negation
If I'm running green and the whole Nim Death Mantle thing with Sac lands. Or just the overall context of the deck.
I understand Tuck is really cool. But it's not as important to me in multiplayer as I expect most people try to keep everyone in check. Games turn Archenemy real quick.
Not true at all, I run counters almost exclusively to protect my game winning spells/ combos. There is no end-all, be-all rules for edh as many people claim on these forums. I really dislike it when people say things like "You shouldn't play any card that doesn't create CA" or "Spot removal/counters are bad in edh", this may be true for your casual playgroup but you cannot generalize this format like that as every meta is different. That said, the counters i utilize in my u/b Oona deck currently are: Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Mana Drain, Counterspell, Negate, Muddle the Mixture maindeck and Spell Crumple, Dispel and Redirect in my wishboard. Also listen to Secularon, Negate rocks!
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As an enchantment, it is pretty meh. It will rarely counter anything you would want to use a counter spell on, and will draw you plenty of hate.
Aside from mana drain and force of will, my next go-to counter is probably muddle the mixture.