Coalition Victory-- Yeah it wins ya the game, but it does take a deck that is built around it. Also, disrupting it is easier and it promotes more removal (Said before, just reiterating).
Protean Hulk-- I like PH and feel that if you unban this is gives you a good reason to think about banning the other more detrimental cards that are damn good.
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I feel I have to chime in on the side against unbanning Tolarian Academy. Only on a superficial level does it resemble it's cousins in Gaea's Cradle and Serra's Sanctum. It is much, much more broken. There are a grand total of 7 free creatures in magic(barring shenanigans) whereas there are literally dozens of free artifacts. Heck, 4 of the 7 free creatures are artifacts! Add that some of those free artifacts are mana producers and you can get degenerate 1st turn plays with Tolarian that just aren't possible with Cradle. Also Cradle's mana base is much more easily disrupted in a format that naturally packs a large % of sweepers. Yes artifact sweepers are run, but not on anywhere near the same scale that *** effects are.
Tolarian=/=Cradle.
Edit: I forgot about Dryad Arbor, but you can't play that and cradle first turn anyways so the point stands.
One of the initial reasons P9 was banned was to send a signal to the competitive players that this was a format for the casual player--but that's not the only reason. The cards are just broken, except for the not-particularly-offensive Timetwister.
Academy is a win now card. Cradle is a win more card. If you're getting serious value out of Cradle, it's pretty likely you already have other stuff to aid your path to victory. Cradle's ability to make 50 mana on Turn 10 is nowhere near as problematic (format-wise) than Academy's ability to make 10 on Turn 3.
Why does anyone want to unban Upheaval? It's the antithesis of fun, in a color that doesn't need any help being un-fun, for far too cheap a cost.
"So everyone gets to start again, except you? Ok, great."
For the same reason part of me wants to unban Recurring Nightmare - it's AWESOME! I had this great loop going with a Solemn Simulacrum and Sower of Temptation, turning certain defeat into a crushing victory due to a lucky top deck.
Yeah, it was awesome. Once. After that, not so much, even with all the bin hate that's been printed since Alara. Or the time I took infinite turns in Captain Sisay with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, which was just dumb. Oh man, those were some pissed blue players. Hilarious, but dumb.
Everyone else has no permanents in play and will have to discard 3-4 cards.
What's even worse is that even through I'm showing this being accelerated out on turn 4, it is actually *more* powerful if you are casting it on turn 10, setting your opponents back further, floating more mana, and replaying more permanents post-resolution.
First, why is Servant banned?
The three most obviously powerful, arguably broken, uses of it are Grindstone, Iona, Shield of Emeria, and Teysa, Scion of Orzhov
Let's address each case individually.
Grindstone: This is a classic combo. Fairly cheaply, it can mill out a player each turn. Both pieces are artifacts, making it easy to tutor. Is this too powerful? It's a two-card combo, and it only mills out one player each turn. This is most directly comparable to Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void, which exiles one player's entire library each turn. Helm/Leyline is a bit more expensive, and a little harder to tutor as the pieces are of two different types. However, the pieces are much more useful on their own. Leyline is one of the most powerful graveyard hate cards around, and Helm can be used for a Bribery-like effect and to counter topdeck tutors. Grindstone has next to no effect outside of the Painter's Stone combo, and the Servant doesn't do much on its own either, unless you are running one of the other cards it combos with or other small combos which are unimpressive at best. Additionally, Mill is considerably worse than exile-mill. Any deck with an Eldrazi Titan in it will be completely unaffected by Painter's Stone, and other cards like Darksteel/Blightsteel Colossus, Lorwyn's Incarnations, Legacy Weapon, and Serra Avatar can also dodge death, though they can leave that player in a tight situation, or simply cause them to win the game (with a graveyard-based deck). If this is too good, I'm not sure why other 2-card, single-player kill combos (like Helm/Leyline) are okay.
Iona: Iona + Painter's Servant creates a near-complete hardlock on opponents casting spells. There are still some outs (cycling cards with effects when cycled, land abilities, Channel cards, on-board tricks, etc). There are two situations where this is likely to be used: in a deck, as a game-ending combo, likely tutored, or with Iona as the general.
For tutor targets, they are rather juicy as a pair to be Tooth and Nail'd in. But considering that TnN already has several immediately-lethal pairs (Mikaeus the Unhallowed + Triskellion, Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch/Village Bell-Ringer + Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker), I fail to see how this is a problem. Sure, it extends the decks capable of auto-winning off of a Tooth and Nail to include Selesnya and Bant generals, but any non-Bant three-color green combination is already capable of one of the two above combos, and Golgari as a two-color is also capable of it.
The grindstone/painter's servant can go literally in any deck. Monored, monobrown. etc. The leyline combo requires a general with a black color identity. Not a great argument, but it is something to consider.
The argument against against TnN is that with Iona and Servant, it is an immediate lock that is extremely hard to disrupt. The other things listed die to any (almost) instant speed creature removal. They are a lot easier to disrupt (especially in multiplayer). Once again something to consider. I may not have a counter for TnN in hand, but I can have spot removal and still stop the existing combos. Painter/Iona is a lock the second TnT resolves.
To be honest, I am fine with the banlist as is. I'll admit I was sad when academy got the axe (i play sharuum). But I also understand why. It was just way too strong.
EDH is like French fries: some people like waffle cut, crinkle cut, or plain old straight cut, and while there's slight flavor difference and personal preference, at the end of the day they're still fries.
Academy is more broken than Cradle in the same way Black Lotus is more broken than Lion's Eye Diamond, or Ancestral Recall is more broken than Brainstorm.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Koko - Nothing more needs to be said about this. There aren't any good reasons to keep him banned.
Balance - Because it is ridiculous fun. Sure it is cheap,
Sway of the Stars - For the same mana cost, I would rather see this resolve than Time Stretch ANYDAY.
Honorable Mentions:
Mirror - This is mainly because I absolutely love this card. I realize there are a lot of dick moves when using Mirror, and in fact, I can't think of a time that Mirror got imprinted that we didn't groan at the prospect of facing it. But, no one I know is loser enough to imprint an extra turn sorcery, so my opinions on it are probably skewed.
Painter's - Sure he has some degenerate combos, but as has been said before he has fun things he can do, he is no more broken or degenerate than helm/leyline, kiki/pester/splinter/deceiver, Teferi/Pool, etc. Painter's has an odd-ball unique effect that can be used to various effects. Iona, is just a bigger, more expensive version of Erayo.
As long as Hermit Druid is not banned, there is no reason for Servant to be banned. I realize they do different things, but Hermit is just dumb, degenerate, and boring and is never used for anything decent.
However, I think having a ban list, at all, for such a casual format, is kind of silly. It is up to the group playing to keep other players from being degenerate.
EDH is predicated on a social contract. Maybe I am lucky and the circles I frequent have more regard for one another than average, but the social contract of having fun already precludes being a jerk while playing. We have already pretty much varianted EDH to include Balance, Upheaval, Koko, Servant, and Mirror.
We have also changed the Hybrid cost rules to allow Mono-colored decks to play them. (i.e. both Mono-black and Mono-white can play unmake) As long as you can cast the spell (i.e. Unmake) , or use an ability (i.e. Bosh), without having to generate mana of a color, or producing a mana of a color (i.e. Noble Exarch), that your General doesn't support, you can cast it.
2. Coalition Victory - I used to be against banning this card, but a lot has changed since then especially since Andy brought up this card for what he would want to personally unban on CommanderCast. And honestly, Coalition Victory is a card I can see coming off.
The main gripe about Coalition Victory is that it ends games suddenly and the instant win makes the rest of the buildup during the game "pointless". My response to that is Coalition Victory mainly does this when you're playing games against unfamiliar opponents; i.e. games on Cockatrice/MTGO or pickup games at a PTQ/GP/SCG Open/insert venue here. Coalition Victory's "SURPRISE I WIN *****ES!" is just that -- a surprise that eventually becomes a one-trick pony if you're playing with the same players. When your opponents are prepared for Coalition Victory, the card loses a lot of its power. Since the prerequisites for winning the game get checked upon resolution, it's pretty easy to do something like Strip Mine a land to bust up Domain, or kill/bounce the five color general in response to blank Coalition Victory. I don't think it's out of the question to run a few more Strip Mine effects or instant-speed spot removal spells to deal with someone in your playgroup that wants to run a card like Coalition Victory since a lot of those answers would also serve tons of other purposes besides just dealing with Coalition Victory on the stack. If you had to pack incredibly situational answers that were Coalition Victory-specific, that would probably be a different story. But it isn't..
The problem with your argument is for the people who do play Cockatrice/MTGO. I don't want to feel like I have to direct unnecessary hate or save answers for a player just because they sit down at a table with a five color deck. I think if Coalition Victory was unbanned you would have to play it in five color decks because you would be hated off the table if whether you had it or not.
first i want to say Balance can 100% never be unbannded. It will without question, and without debate ruin the format. I think if people think otherwise it is more likely they have not played against this card often, and just really want to use it cause it has cool alternate art foils
1. Library of Alexandria The Price of the card is a fair point why not to allow it. As Seldon, the God Father of the format wants it to be playable by most...and this can harm that. The Effect is good, but it is not crushing in and of itself. This would make control better, but most the cards on the ban list should be banned...so if you are gonna start picking...
2. Coalition Victory I mean...if you can pull it off....cool story bro. I suppose some jerks will run speed into general, lots of pitch counters and Duress effects. But it is not a hard meta to beat.
3. Kokusho, the Evening Star Just not scared of it at all. Not much better then other combos (creature wise).
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1. Kokusho, the Evening Star
Not much to say beyond what was already said. Very good creature, but there are more powerful currently ones allowed. Ban as a commander, if you want to play it safe.
2. Coalition Victory
Only goes into very specific decks that have far better instant win combos available than this one. It does nothing but clogging up the banned list.
3. Recurring Nightmare... I guess.
Unlike the other two cards, this has actually a reason to be on the banned list. Still, you can fun stuff with it and there is no format where you can really play it right now (only allowed in Vintage and Legacy, but too slow there). I love that card and I want to play it some more.
For those requesting Metalworker's unbanning have obviously never seen how degenerate it gets QUICKLY!!! Same thing for Balance. It is the dumbest card ever printed. There are WAY too many ways to get around it where it doesn't hurt you. Cast artifacts, enchantments and Balance doesn't touch those. There's no more of a dirty feeling that having your hand and board stripped away by 1 FRIGGIN' card!!
I would like to see Kokusho unbanned because of the much larger number of exiling spells and abilities there are compared to when he came out. Even as a general I think he'd be tolerable.
I would also cast my vote for Coalition Victory. This card is hard as hell to set up (even with duals and 5-color creatures) and it's easily disruptable. One well aimed removal spell in response and it's all for naught.
My last suggestion would be for Library of Alexandria. This card is really only shines in control decks and control doesn't really excel in EDH. There are exceptions but in multi-player games, the control decks are weaker.
Kokusho. Why? People smarter than me can tell you.
I honestly think that the Hulk should come off the list, because T&N is pretty much the new Hulk.
Panoptic Mirror just looks fun to play with, and I'm sure anyone caught trying to imprint a Time Walk on it will be neutered.
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The problem with your argument is for the people who do play Cockatrice/MTGO. I don't want to feel like I have to direct unnecessary hate or save answers for a player just because they sit down at a table with a five color deck. I think if Coalition Victory was unbanned you would have to play it in five color decks because you would be hated off the table if whether you had it or not.
I play on cockatrice and I don't see why this card is banned. The guy has very good points that make sense to me. Any combo that is easily disruptable is fine to me....as long it doesn't turn the game into, "What turn is it now? Why haven't you killed me yet?"
What I would like to see unbanned though is Kokusho, the Evening Star. Seems to me you have to go through as many hoops if not more to kill the opponents off as with a lethal Exsanguinate. The creature argument and thus is easily recurrable point is moot, defeated by my argument of the draining with other cards. Even as a general he would be ok. So many other decks set up combos to utilize infi mana with the drainer we already have. They also use many tutors and draws to set it up to be more consistent. So what if you always have access to your kill spell, so many other decks already do. Besides, making him ur general means you fold quite easily to control, kokusho's worst nightmare.
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I think since imperial seal is legal we can't really say that library of alexandria is too cost prohibitive. It would be a great card for mono white/red decks. I also have a hard time seeing how it's broken. Drawing one when you already have seven seems harmless enough and maybe even win more.
I think since imperial seal is legal we can't really say that library of alexandria is too cost prohibitive. It would be a great card for mono white/red decks. I also have a hard time seeing how it's broken. Drawing one when you already have seven seems harmless enough and maybe even win more.
The thing is, you can draw two a turn, play two things a turn. It's not broken in red/white because you have no good source of CA. But in blue decks, you can keep your hand at 7 fairly easily.
Why does anyone want to unban Upheaval? It's the antithesis of fun.....
Perhaps it's the antithesis of your personal concept of what consists of "fun", but please be aware, throwing this three letter word around as if it encompasses everyone's concept of fun, is overextending your Venn diagram into territory that isn't yours.
My idea of fun, some other person's idea of fun, and your idea of fun most likely do not coincide. And there's nothing wrong with this. It's ok you like to do things the way you like to do it, and vice versa with anyone else.
Fun is not a word you can own all to yourself and your version of it should not be pushed upon others. This is why I stay away from casual players and players who shun proxies. They have their core beliefs, and I have mine.
I'd just like you to be aware of this the next time someone speaks up about something being "unfun". It's not a good argument. Ultimately someone is trying to hijack complete control and definition over a word with relative and arbitrary meaning.
"I know what fun is, and you don't" - sums up this stance. Doesn't seem like a good one. Seems silly and pointless to debate who knows what fun is. It's like arguing over which comic book character can beat up who.
Perhaps it's the antithesis of your personal concept of what consists of "fun", but please be aware, throwing this three letter word around as if it encompasses everyone's concept of fun, is overextending your Venn diagram into territory that isn't yours.
My idea of fun, some other person's idea of fun, and your idea of fun most likely do not coincide. And there's nothing wrong with this. It's ok you like to do things the way you like to do it, and vice versa with anyone else.
Fun is not a word you can own all to yourself and your version of it should not be pushed upon others. This is why I stay away from casual players and players who shun proxies. They have their core beliefs, and I have mine.
I'd just like you to be aware of this the next time someone speaks up about something being "unfun". It's not a good argument. Ultimately someone is trying to hijack complete control and definition over a word with relative and arbitrary meaning.
"I know what fun is, and you don't" - sums up this stance. Doesn't seem like a good one. Seems silly and pointless to debate who knows what fun is. It's like arguing over which comic book character can beat up who.
A card is fun - Meaning: among the several archtypes of magic user, it is generally considered to be enjoyable to play with and against.
Upheaval is not. Thanks
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I think upheavel is fun... and balance... Matter of fact, I like geddon, RoW, ***, global ruin, and all that good stuff. But only when I play it to my benefit... Much like any other card magic has ever printed. Its not fun when you get smacked with a 28/29 Birds of Paradise, but its pretty awesome when you smack some one else .
I think the only way to resolve this issue of cards being un-fun, is to quit playing magic all together.
Perhaps it's the antithesis of your personal concept of what consists of "fun", but please be aware, throwing this three letter word around as if it encompasses everyone's concept of fun, is overextending your Venn diagram into territory that isn't yours.
My idea of fun, some other person's idea of fun, and your idea of fun most likely do not coincide. And there's nothing wrong with this. It's ok you like to do things the way you like to do it, and vice versa with anyone else.
Fun is not a word you can own all to yourself and your version of it should not be pushed upon others. This is why I stay away from casual players and players who shun proxies. They have their core beliefs, and I have mine.
I'd just like you to be aware of this the next time someone speaks up about something being "unfun". It's not a good argument. Ultimately someone is trying to hijack complete control and definition over a word with relative and arbitrary meaning.
"I know what fun is, and you don't" - sums up this stance. Doesn't seem like a good one. Seems silly and pointless to debate who knows what fun is. It's like arguing over which comic book character can beat up who.
While I appreciate the thinly veiled condescension -- and I'm not entirely being sarcastic, you do it very well and should give yourself a pat on the back -- I don't need the lesson. I'm the guy in my playgroup that does what a lot of "casual" types think is unfun. Look at the deck linked in my sig, for example.
I've thought about this issue a lot, despite what your intuitions no doubt told you about my stance on the matter. There are two specific categories that things often branded "unfun" fall into. 1) Things that prevent your opponent from playing their deck, and 2) things that win the game instantaneously.
Upheaval is not fun. I played extensively in Odyssey block. I know how the card is used. Play Upheaval, float 3, play Psychatog, win. Unfortunately this doesn't work nearly as well in multiplayer games. I'd have no problem with the card in 1v1 (oddly enough, it apparently is bad enough to warrant a ban in that variant as well), because it should, in theory, put someone far enough ahead such that it's all but over. In multiplayer, it's accessibility in the early game and the unlikelihood that it produces an actual win when it's cast mean it's going to be used simply to reset the board when someone feels they're falling behind. This should not be encouraged in this format.
I don't know if this passes muster for your standards of what constitutes a "good argument" or not, but there you have it. In my opinion, Upheaval is unfun, and absolutely merits its place on the banned list. Now, instead of a condescending strawman argument*, why don't you provide an argument as to why Upheaval should not be banned? Or, even better, why not provide some reasons as to why it is actually fun?
* To clarify this remark, I think your post was a strawman on two accounts. First, you didn't answer my question -- why do you want Upheaval unbanned? Second, "I know what fun is and you don't" is far from what I said, which is, as far as I can tell, the position you were attacking in your post.
Kokusho, the Evening Star-- I am not gonna beat the dead horse in the room.
Coalition Victory-- Yeah it wins ya the game, but it does take a deck that is built around it. Also, disrupting it is easier and it promotes more removal (Said before, just reiterating).
Protean Hulk-- I like PH and feel that if you unban this is gives you a good reason to think about banning the other more detrimental cards that are damn good.
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Tolarian=/=Cradle.
Edit: I forgot about Dryad Arbor, but you can't play that and cradle first turn anyways so the point stands.
As someone who has won off a turn 3 Hulk in serious Legacy play, it is an auto win card.
Hulk can be fun, and there are plenty of crazy fun uses for it. But it is absolutely a 1 card, I win the game combo.
From the mind of Raymond Swanland: Valla, a plane made entirely out of brownish spikes.
Academy is a win now card. Cradle is a win more card. If you're getting serious value out of Cradle, it's pretty likely you already have other stuff to aid your path to victory. Cradle's ability to make 50 mana on Turn 10 is nowhere near as problematic (format-wise) than Academy's ability to make 10 on Turn 3.
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For the same reason part of me wants to unban Recurring Nightmare - it's AWESOME! I had this great loop going with a Solemn Simulacrum and Sower of Temptation, turning certain defeat into a crushing victory due to a lucky top deck.
Yeah, it was awesome. Once. After that, not so much, even with all the bin hate that's been printed since Alara. Or the time I took infinite turns in Captain Sisay with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, which was just dumb. Oh man, those were some pissed blue players. Hilarious, but dumb.
Turn 1: Island, Mana Vault
Turn 2: Island, Thran Dynamo
Turn 3: untap Mana Vault, Island
Turn 4: Upheaval, Island, Mana Vault, Thran Dyanamo
Everyone else has no permanents in play and will have to discard 3-4 cards.
What's even worse is that even through I'm showing this being accelerated out on turn 4, it is actually *more* powerful if you are casting it on turn 10, setting your opponents back further, floating more mana, and replaying more permanents post-resolution.
The grindstone/painter's servant can go literally in any deck. Monored, monobrown. etc. The leyline combo requires a general with a black color identity. Not a great argument, but it is something to consider.
The argument against against TnN is that with Iona and Servant, it is an immediate lock that is extremely hard to disrupt. The other things listed die to any (almost) instant speed creature removal. They are a lot easier to disrupt (especially in multiplayer). Once again something to consider. I may not have a counter for TnN in hand, but I can have spot removal and still stop the existing combos. Painter/Iona is a lock the second TnT resolves.
To be honest, I am fine with the banlist as is. I'll admit I was sad when academy got the axe (i play sharuum). But I also understand why. It was just way too strong.
Koko - Nothing more needs to be said about this. There aren't any good reasons to keep him banned.
Balance - Because it is ridiculous fun. Sure it is cheap,
Sway of the Stars - For the same mana cost, I would rather see this resolve than Time Stretch ANYDAY.
Honorable Mentions:
Mirror - This is mainly because I absolutely love this card. I realize there are a lot of dick moves when using Mirror, and in fact, I can't think of a time that Mirror got imprinted that we didn't groan at the prospect of facing it. But, no one I know is loser enough to imprint an extra turn sorcery, so my opinions on it are probably skewed.
Painter's - Sure he has some degenerate combos, but as has been said before he has fun things he can do, he is no more broken or degenerate than helm/leyline, kiki/pester/splinter/deceiver, Teferi/Pool, etc. Painter's has an odd-ball unique effect that can be used to various effects. Iona, is just a bigger, more expensive version of Erayo.
As long as Hermit Druid is not banned, there is no reason for Servant to be banned. I realize they do different things, but Hermit is just dumb, degenerate, and boring and is never used for anything decent.
However, I think having a ban list, at all, for such a casual format, is kind of silly. It is up to the group playing to keep other players from being degenerate.
EDH is predicated on a social contract. Maybe I am lucky and the circles I frequent have more regard for one another than average, but the social contract of having fun already precludes being a jerk while playing. We have already pretty much varianted EDH to include Balance, Upheaval, Koko, Servant, and Mirror.
We have also changed the Hybrid cost rules to allow Mono-colored decks to play them. (i.e. both Mono-black and Mono-white can play unmake) As long as you can cast the spell (i.e. Unmake) , or use an ability (i.e. Bosh), without having to generate mana of a color, or producing a mana of a color (i.e. Noble Exarch), that your General doesn't support, you can cast it.
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The problem with your argument is for the people who do play Cockatrice/MTGO. I don't want to feel like I have to direct unnecessary hate or save answers for a player just because they sit down at a table with a five color deck. I think if Coalition Victory was unbanned you would have to play it in five color decks because you would be hated off the table if whether you had it or not.
1. Library of Alexandria The Price of the card is a fair point why not to allow it. As Seldon, the God Father of the format wants it to be playable by most...and this can harm that. The Effect is good, but it is not crushing in and of itself. This would make control better, but most the cards on the ban list should be banned...so if you are gonna start picking...
2. Coalition Victory I mean...if you can pull it off....cool story bro. I suppose some jerks will run speed into general, lots of pitch counters and Duress effects. But it is not a hard meta to beat.
3. Kokusho, the Evening Star Just not scared of it at all. Not much better then other combos (creature wise).
Not much to say beyond what was already said. Very good creature, but there are more powerful currently ones allowed. Ban as a commander, if you want to play it safe.
2. Coalition Victory
Only goes into very specific decks that have far better instant win combos available than this one. It does nothing but clogging up the banned list.
3. Recurring Nightmare... I guess.
Unlike the other two cards, this has actually a reason to be on the banned list. Still, you can fun stuff with it and there is no format where you can really play it right now (only allowed in Vintage and Legacy, but too slow there). I love that card and I want to play it some more.
Unbanning Upheaval is absolutely wrong though. As is comparing it to Armageddon or Wrath of God.
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I would like to see Kokusho unbanned because of the much larger number of exiling spells and abilities there are compared to when he came out. Even as a general I think he'd be tolerable.
I would also cast my vote for Coalition Victory. This card is hard as hell to set up (even with duals and 5-color creatures) and it's easily disruptable. One well aimed removal spell in response and it's all for naught.
My last suggestion would be for Library of Alexandria. This card is really only shines in control decks and control doesn't really excel in EDH. There are exceptions but in multi-player games, the control decks are weaker.
I collect pre-release Stone-Tongue Basilisk
I honestly think that the Hulk should come off the list, because T&N is pretty much the new Hulk.
Panoptic Mirror just looks fun to play with, and I'm sure anyone caught trying to imprint a Time Walk on it will be neutered.
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UG Infect
I play on cockatrice and I don't see why this card is banned. The guy has very good points that make sense to me. Any combo that is easily disruptable is fine to me....as long it doesn't turn the game into, "What turn is it now? Why haven't you killed me yet?"
What I would like to see unbanned though is Kokusho, the Evening Star. Seems to me you have to go through as many hoops if not more to kill the opponents off as with a lethal Exsanguinate. The creature argument and thus is easily recurrable point is moot, defeated by my argument of the draining with other cards. Even as a general he would be ok. So many other decks set up combos to utilize infi mana with the drainer we already have. They also use many tutors and draws to set it up to be more consistent. So what if you always have access to your kill spell, so many other decks already do. Besides, making him ur general means you fold quite easily to control, kokusho's worst nightmare.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
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UUUSTeferi Combo PrimerSUUU
The thing is, you can draw two a turn, play two things a turn. It's not broken in red/white because you have no good source of CA. But in blue decks, you can keep your hand at 7 fairly easily.
Perhaps it's the antithesis of your personal concept of what consists of "fun", but please be aware, throwing this three letter word around as if it encompasses everyone's concept of fun, is overextending your Venn diagram into territory that isn't yours.
My idea of fun, some other person's idea of fun, and your idea of fun most likely do not coincide. And there's nothing wrong with this. It's ok you like to do things the way you like to do it, and vice versa with anyone else.
Fun is not a word you can own all to yourself and your version of it should not be pushed upon others. This is why I stay away from casual players and players who shun proxies. They have their core beliefs, and I have mine.
I'd just like you to be aware of this the next time someone speaks up about something being "unfun". It's not a good argument. Ultimately someone is trying to hijack complete control and definition over a word with relative and arbitrary meaning.
"I know what fun is, and you don't" - sums up this stance. Doesn't seem like a good one. Seems silly and pointless to debate who knows what fun is. It's like arguing over which comic book character can beat up who.
A card is fun - Meaning: among the several archtypes of magic user, it is generally considered to be enjoyable to play with and against.
Upheaval is not. Thanks
I think the only way to resolve this issue of cards being un-fun, is to quit playing magic all together.
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While I appreciate the thinly veiled condescension -- and I'm not entirely being sarcastic, you do it very well and should give yourself a pat on the back -- I don't need the lesson. I'm the guy in my playgroup that does what a lot of "casual" types think is unfun. Look at the deck linked in my sig, for example.
I've thought about this issue a lot, despite what your intuitions no doubt told you about my stance on the matter. There are two specific categories that things often branded "unfun" fall into. 1) Things that prevent your opponent from playing their deck, and 2) things that win the game instantaneously.
Upheaval is not fun. I played extensively in Odyssey block. I know how the card is used. Play Upheaval, float 3, play Psychatog, win. Unfortunately this doesn't work nearly as well in multiplayer games. I'd have no problem with the card in 1v1 (oddly enough, it apparently is bad enough to warrant a ban in that variant as well), because it should, in theory, put someone far enough ahead such that it's all but over. In multiplayer, it's accessibility in the early game and the unlikelihood that it produces an actual win when it's cast mean it's going to be used simply to reset the board when someone feels they're falling behind. This should not be encouraged in this format.
I don't know if this passes muster for your standards of what constitutes a "good argument" or not, but there you have it. In my opinion, Upheaval is unfun, and absolutely merits its place on the banned list. Now, instead of a condescending strawman argument*, why don't you provide an argument as to why Upheaval should not be banned? Or, even better, why not provide some reasons as to why it is actually fun?
* To clarify this remark, I think your post was a strawman on two accounts. First, you didn't answer my question -- why do you want Upheaval unbanned? Second, "I know what fun is and you don't" is far from what I said, which is, as far as I can tell, the position you were attacking in your post.
EDH: U Arcum Dagsson (primer!) U