"Let local groups decide" doesn't equal "let people in local groups force others to let them play banned cards." Playing exactly by the official rules is a viable local group choice. It's certainly easier, there isn't a bunch of negotiation or argument, and people don't feel like they have to go along just to not be the dissenting voice.
"Let local groups decide" doesn't equal "let people in local groups force others to let them play banned cards." Playing exactly by the official rules is a viable local group choice. It's certainly easier, there isn't a bunch of negotiation or argument, and people don't feel like they have to go along just to not be the dissenting voice.
As far as players trying to "force" groups to let them use banned cards, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when someone new to commander shows up, and partway through the game they try to play a card that is banned. This rarely happens, but when it does they are almost always forced to remove the card immediately without waiting till the next game, even if they aren't using the card in a broken manner. This can be somewhat disruptive to games. As far as someone trying to get everyone to let them use a banned card, or a player who should know better sneaking one into their deck, that is never tolerated, and should never be.
That's just with regular banned list cards though. As far as unplayable generals go, as I said, they are more frowned upon than they should be in the relatively casual groups I play in. I myself have no problem with proxies or unplayable generals like Haakon. Most people seem to be fine with proxies of things like dual lands and other expensive staples. They dislike it, however, when people proxy expensive, broken cards like Moat. The general consensus being that one cannot play cards that broken unless they are willing to pay for them.
Unfortunately, "let local groups manage what's allowed and what's not" does not work on MTGO. There you have to play by the RAW. Which means you'll sometimes see stuff like Yosei-lock, Erayo/Arcane Lab, Scion/Hermit-combo and other solitaire plays that many casual players would find unfun to sit through.
A question for the RC would be: How does MTGO figure into your considerations for bans/unbans?
It doesn't. Commander is primarily social. That means we prioritize real life interaction over online experience.
Now, this summer's Multiplayer product is Planechase 2012, as noted on the Daily Arcana on the Mothership. In that same article, they mention developing more stuff for a future Commander release of some sort. Can you tell us anything about that?
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"When does a man die? When he is hit by a bullet? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!" Currently Piloting: EDH BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer) WBRKaalia of The Vast URGRiku of Two Reflections WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius UBRamirez DePietro GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
We are definitely focused on the players who want to play EDH so that everyone enjoys themselves as opposed to those who play it to just win. There's nothing inherently wrong with either approach, but the former is our audience.
That clears a lot up. I agree that the formats number one rule is to HAVE FUN. Having fun can mean making competitive combo decks to casual decks that explore various interactions, flavor or whatever the designer decides. I think all players go through various deck-building stages where they
find what they like, find what's broken and strong and then come back to a healthy medium that fulfills their EDH desires while at the same time not making other players in their meta groan when the pull out a deck most of the time.
We can't. We'll get official spoilers as we can and will share them as we're allowed.
Worth a shot, I suppose. Thanks for answering.
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"When does a man die? When he is hit by a bullet? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!" Currently Piloting: EDH BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer) WBRKaalia of The Vast URGRiku of Two Reflections WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius UBRamirez DePietro GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Our experience has shown that Servant (and Mirror) just seem to wreck games through unplanned interactions.
Sorry, to continue to belabor the point of Servant, but I don't know that I see quite as many accidentally broken interactions with servant as I do with Mirror or even Staff of Domination. Teysa is probably the only major concern and that is still an at least three card combo; even if it is a 3 card combo with a general, teferi/pool is still a 2 card. As far as grindstone is concerned, no one is going to play that card without the intention of combo-ing out or decking an unsuspecting mono colored player and as stated earlier, the RC was alright with 2 card combos. Iona is another concern, but the card is already inherently not in the "Spirit of EDH" because it prevents players from playing, so catering to the use of Iona seems unintuitive. All of the examples of broken-ness with PS that I can come up with seem quite intentional.
Also, I would like to thank both of you for answering questions here, its great to have this kind of dialog with the RC.
Quote from Sheldon »
I gave my Riku deck to poker star David Williams at Worlds, and haven't rebuilt it. I actually haven't considered what to do with it, save for wanting it to be REALLY outside-the-box.
Lastly, I would like to offer an outside-the-box Riku suggestion. Mirror Gallery. This thread popped up here a couple days ago.
EDIT: Also I would like to Apologize to Andy, our Ghooost Host, for hi-jacking this thread. (Perhaps this should have its own thread?) Anyway, I am always interested in the possibility of allowing hybrid/off color flip/ect. cards in other decks for the additional design space they offer.
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I really don't like Goodstuff, which makes me a Self-Proclaimed EDH Hipster. I'm also an avid theory-crafter, most of which are terrible.
Thank you papa_funk and Sheldon, your explanations are well-received. I can understand the overall "I accidentally the whole game" thing, but one thing still bothers me, and I'd assume bothers everyone else as well. You probably already know where I am going with this, as it's most likely the single most brought up topic or card you guys have heard about.
Kokusho gets talked about a lot, obviously, including internally, and she's one of the borderline cards.
What we found back in the day, both from reports from groups we talked to and our own personal observations was that Koko consistently made games that were fun and interesting go downhill in a hurry. Why this happens, and happens repeatedly enough that it came to our attention, is subtle and not that easy to express. We talk about "overcentralization" - which is really the idea that the best way to fight back once you've been drained is to be the next person to do the draining - and that's a big part of it, but it's also the way it does it. You focus on gaining back life, but it's also doing it by taking life away from the others, and it's that downward spiral that seems to be the problem. Using Exsanguinate to justify its existence isn't a great idea - I think Exsanguinate shouldn't have been made. At least it's a sorcery and therefore harder to recur regularly.
Is Kokusho broken? Clearly not. Would the format be better with it in? That's a lot less clear. And, while it would never be a reason to have a card banned, it certainly helps convey that the list is less about competitive degeneracy and more about a style of play.
Fastest way to make folks excited about a format: "I can play Sol Ring? Sweet, I have one of those lying around"
Fastest way to turn folks off from a format: "I need Moxen?"
Do you think that one is more fair than the other? Sol Ring accelerates players more than a mox would and in EDH I'm confident that Sol Ring is much stronger than a mox.
Do you think that one is more fair than the other? Sol Ring accelerates players more than a mox would and in EDH I'm confident that Sol Ring is much stronger than a mox.
They're not mutually exclusive. While the mock might not be as strong as sol ring, they still are almost as string and much more expensive, and like sol ring would be auto-includes.
Do you think that one is more fair than the other? Sol Ring accelerates players more than a mox would and in EDH I'm confident that Sol Ring is much stronger than a mox.
Well, frankly yes. Sol ring is barely more then the price of a booster pack. Mox are the price of 100packs each if you get them cheap. So everyone can get their hands on a Sol Ring pretty easy.
On the point of "fairness" of the sol ring itself it is extremely powerful early game. And while repeatedly stated the entirety of Commander is based on a more casual mindset, sol ring is extremely advantageous and both a casual and a more defined or competitive meta an early or even turn 1 sol ring is extremely game swaying. I don't want to get into debating the power level of the card so I will get to my question.
MY QUESTION:
Has the printing of Sol Ring in the commander sets that wizard produced served as a detriment or has been an inhibitor to any possible banning of the card or are you comfortable at the power level of sol ring and hasn't been an issue or been brought up as a card to ban?
Kokusho gets talked about a lot, obviously, including internally, and she's one of the borderline cards.
What we found back in the day, both from reports from groups we talked to and our own personal observations was that Koko consistently made games that were fun and interesting go downhill in a hurry. Why this happens, and happens repeatedly enough that it came to our attention, is subtle and not that easy to express. We talk about "overcentralization" - which is really the idea that the best way to fight back once you've been drained is to be the next person to do the draining - and that's a big part of it, but it's also the way it does it. You focus on gaining back life, but it's also doing it by taking life away from the others, and it's that downward spiral that seems to be the problem. Using Exsanguinate to justify its existence isn't a great idea - I think Exsanguinate shouldn't have been made. At least it's a sorcery and therefore harder to recur regularly.
Is Kokusho broken? Clearly not. Would the format be better with it in? That's a lot less clear. And, while it would never be a reason to have a card banned, it certainly helps convey that the list is less about competitive degeneracy and more about a style of play.
Thank you for explaining that to me, it makes more sense now. I do understand how the drain effect can be an overcentralization, but is there any chance, in your opinion, that Kokusho, the Evening Star might have his/her chance to come off the list(at least as one of the 99 in a list)? It certainly can't be worse than a Primeval Titan overcentralizing the game, which allows for a multitude of lands to enter the battlefield at an extremely accelerated pace, while also being some of the most powerful card types a deck can field.
Would there at least be a chance of a test run with Kokusho coming off the banlist, much like what was done with the test of Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary?
The trouble is that the RC bans cards on the basis of cost - just look at the Moxen for an easy example. The specific part of interest is 'A card's dollar cost is prohibitive for most players...'
How much is prohibitive? $50? $80? $100? $8000? (looking at you, Black Lotus) How is 'most players' decided? I know that most players I play with would find a $20 Sneak Attack to be 'prohibitively expensive'.
Pretty much this. Mittoo definitely clarified my question. Thanks
Is Kokusho broken? Clearly not. Would the format be better with it in? That's a lot less clear. And, while it would never be a reason to have a card banned, it certainly helps convey that the list is less about competitive degeneracy and more about a style of play.
I don't think the ban list should be what sets this tone, nor is it necessary. I'd wager most new EDH players get an experience playing the game before they even get a glimpse of the banlist, ergo are already familiarized with what sort of cards they should be playing. I get a lot more questions asking my opinion of what's good enough to play than what's too broken to play, as cards that are good in standard don't translate over to the format so smoothly.
Kokusho gets talked about a lot, obviously, including internally, and she's one of the borderline cards.
What we found back in the day, both from reports from groups we talked to and our own personal observations was that Koko consistently made games that were fun and interesting go downhill in a hurry. Why this happens, and happens repeatedly enough that it came to our attention, is subtle and not that easy to express. We talk about "overcentralization" - which is really the idea that the best way to fight back once you've been drained is to be the next person to do the draining - and that's a big part of it, but it's also the way it does it. You focus on gaining back life, but it's also doing it by taking life away from the others, and it's that downward spiral that seems to be the problem. Using Exsanguinate to justify its existence isn't a great idea - I think Exsanguinate shouldn't have been made. At least it's a sorcery and therefore harder to recur regularly.
Is Kokusho broken? Clearly not. Would the format be better with it in? That's a lot less clear. And, while it would never be a reason to have a card banned, it certainly helps convey that the list is less about competitive degeneracy and more about a style of play.
Sheldon and many other pro-ban people have used this same argument for justifying why Kokusho should be banned, so this isn't a surprise to me. I don't buy it for a few reasons. Kokusho is a first-order strategy even when he's "accidentally degenerate". Scrambling to drain each others' life is an effective tactic when players haven't been exposed to more powerful strategies. Newer players overestimate life a lot because it's the "score" that is most visible to you, but it is an intangible resource that doesn't directly affect your ability to play Magic. Is it really out of the question for casual groups dominated by first-order strategies to be able to acclimate to a problem card like Kokusho?
Besides, Kokusho was banned simultaneously with Recurring Nightmare. We never got a chance to see what Kokusho would be like when it didn't have such an incredibly powerful enabler around. A lot has changed since Kokusho was banned nearly four years ago.
I'm not sure if you folks are still reading this thread, but I was wondering if you could comment on your thoughts of using the optional sideboard or "Wishboard" rules.
To me, the spirit of Commander is to pack 100 cards that you think can take on all comers and go to war. Nothing breaks this more than having a card in your deck that can go fetch one of 10 specific answers to problems that you don't think are significant enough to warrant putting in your main deck. A player could build a deck to work on a very unusual interaction or strategy, and someone uses a Wish to go get the perfect hoser that would, in 19 games out of 20, be a totally dead card.
I obviously have strong thoughts about it, but I'm wondering if you guys use this optional rule when you play.
I dislike Wishboards a great deal and will always say no if someone asks to play them. The format is 100 cards.
I initially liked the optional sideboard idea as a method of getting cards rotating through decks (helping keep the format fresh, which can be a problem in Eternal formats) and players being able to have a chance to deal with singularly difficult generals. They were never intended to make your deck effectively 110 cards. I dislike what the rule has turned into.
Don't let anyone force you into letting them play with the optional rule.
I dislike Wishboards a great deal and will always say no if someone asks to play them. The format is 100 cards.
I initially liked the optional sideboard idea as a method of getting cards rotating through decks (helping keep the format fresh, which can be a problem in Eternal formats) and players being able to have a chance to deal with singularly difficult generals. They were never intended to make your deck effectively 110 cards. I dislike what the rule has turned into.
Don't let anyone force you into letting them play with the optional rule.
Is it one of those "If we wanted players to have 110 cards, we would of given them 110 cards as the deck size, types of things?"
Also, are there any cards that are currently on the border of being banned? What I mean is, are there any cards where, 1 or 2 more synergous cards and it'll be the death knell for card X?
I would like to submit an idea. That there be a sub format in EDH much like legacy and standard in tournament mtg. It seems as though everyone has different opinions about what should and shouldnt be banned, therefor, I suggest a optional format with no ban list. That way every one gets their own 'pet cards'... Not to replace the format by any means. But instead, someone can go to a new shop, grand prix, ect... with decks for each EDH format. Ask if they play EDH or (example) EDH 'un-ban', and play games accordingly. I am aware that this is a casual format, and thus, no ban list needs to be strictly adhered to, but that could upset some players in different play groups. So to give such a thing an official title and support would benefit the community IMO.
As far as players trying to "force" groups to let them use banned cards, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when someone new to commander shows up, and partway through the game they try to play a card that is banned. This rarely happens, but when it does they are almost always forced to remove the card immediately without waiting till the next game, even if they aren't using the card in a broken manner. This can be somewhat disruptive to games. As far as someone trying to get everyone to let them use a banned card, or a player who should know better sneaking one into their deck, that is never tolerated, and should never be.
That's just with regular banned list cards though. As far as unplayable generals go, as I said, they are more frowned upon than they should be in the relatively casual groups I play in. I myself have no problem with proxies or unplayable generals like Haakon. Most people seem to be fine with proxies of things like dual lands and other expensive staples. They dislike it, however, when people proxy expensive, broken cards like Moat. The general consensus being that one cannot play cards that broken unless they are willing to pay for them.
It doesn't. Commander is primarily social. That means we prioritize real life interaction over online experience.
Now, this summer's Multiplayer product is Planechase 2012, as noted on the Daily Arcana on the Mothership. In that same article, they mention developing more stuff for a future Commander release of some sort. Can you tell us anything about that?
Currently Piloting:
EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
That clears a lot up. I agree that the formats number one rule is to HAVE FUN. Having fun can mean making competitive combo decks to casual decks that explore various interactions, flavor or whatever the designer decides. I think all players go through various deck-building stages where they
find what they like, find what's broken and strong and then come back to a healthy medium that fulfills their EDH desires while at the same time not making other players in their meta groan when the pull out a deck most of the time.
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
Worth a shot, I suppose. Thanks for answering.
Currently Piloting:
EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
Sorry, to continue to belabor the point of Servant, but I don't know that I see quite as many accidentally broken interactions with servant as I do with Mirror or even Staff of Domination. Teysa is probably the only major concern and that is still an at least three card combo; even if it is a 3 card combo with a general, teferi/pool is still a 2 card. As far as grindstone is concerned, no one is going to play that card without the intention of combo-ing out or decking an unsuspecting mono colored player and as stated earlier, the RC was alright with 2 card combos. Iona is another concern, but the card is already inherently not in the "Spirit of EDH" because it prevents players from playing, so catering to the use of Iona seems unintuitive. All of the examples of broken-ness with PS that I can come up with seem quite intentional.
Also, I would like to thank both of you for answering questions here, its great to have this kind of dialog with the RC.
Lastly, I would like to offer an outside-the-box Riku suggestion.
Mirror Gallery.
This thread popped up here a couple days ago.
EDIT: Also I would like to Apologize to Andy, our Ghooost Host, for hi-jacking this thread. (Perhaps this should have its own thread?) Anyway, I am always interested in the possibility of allowing hybrid/off color flip/ect. cards in other decks for the additional design space they offer.
BBBMBC Shirei StyleBBB
URUNiv-Mizzet, Warp WorldURU
BGRKresh the BloodbraidedBGR
Kokusho gets talked about a lot, obviously, including internally, and she's one of the borderline cards.
What we found back in the day, both from reports from groups we talked to and our own personal observations was that Koko consistently made games that were fun and interesting go downhill in a hurry. Why this happens, and happens repeatedly enough that it came to our attention, is subtle and not that easy to express. We talk about "overcentralization" - which is really the idea that the best way to fight back once you've been drained is to be the next person to do the draining - and that's a big part of it, but it's also the way it does it. You focus on gaining back life, but it's also doing it by taking life away from the others, and it's that downward spiral that seems to be the problem. Using Exsanguinate to justify its existence isn't a great idea - I think Exsanguinate shouldn't have been made. At least it's a sorcery and therefore harder to recur regularly.
Is Kokusho broken? Clearly not. Would the format be better with it in? That's a lot less clear. And, while it would never be a reason to have a card banned, it certainly helps convey that the list is less about competitive degeneracy and more about a style of play.
Thank you for taking the time to answer so many questions personally.
Fastest way to make folks excited about a format: "I can play Sol Ring? Sweet, I have one of those lying around"
Fastest way to turn folks off from a format: "I need Moxen?"
Cost and availability, I would guess. Everyone owns a Sol Ring so the field of battle is relatively even. The same is not true of the Moxen.
Edit: papa_funk, that is a very elegant way of describing the situation. I like it.
Do you think that one is more fair than the other? Sol Ring accelerates players more than a mox would and in EDH I'm confident that Sol Ring is much stronger than a mox.
They're not mutually exclusive. While the mock might not be as strong as sol ring, they still are almost as string and much more expensive, and like sol ring would be auto-includes.
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
Well, frankly yes. Sol ring is barely more then the price of a booster pack. Mox are the price of 100packs each if you get them cheap. So everyone can get their hands on a Sol Ring pretty easy.
MY QUESTION:
Has the printing of Sol Ring in the commander sets that wizard produced served as a detriment or has been an inhibitor to any possible banning of the card or are you comfortable at the power level of sol ring and hasn't been an issue or been brought up as a card to ban?
Thank you for explaining that to me, it makes more sense now. I do understand how the drain effect can be an overcentralization, but is there any chance, in your opinion, that Kokusho, the Evening Star might have his/her chance to come off the list(at least as one of the 99 in a list)? It certainly can't be worse than a Primeval Titan overcentralizing the game, which allows for a multitude of lands to enter the battlefield at an extremely accelerated pace, while also being some of the most powerful card types a deck can field.
Would there at least be a chance of a test run with Kokusho coming off the banlist, much like what was done with the test of Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary?
Thank you again for your replies.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Pretty much this. Mittoo definitely clarified my question. Thanks
I don't think the ban list should be what sets this tone, nor is it necessary. I'd wager most new EDH players get an experience playing the game before they even get a glimpse of the banlist, ergo are already familiarized with what sort of cards they should be playing. I get a lot more questions asking my opinion of what's good enough to play than what's too broken to play, as cards that are good in standard don't translate over to the format so smoothly.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Sheldon and many other pro-ban people have used this same argument for justifying why Kokusho should be banned, so this isn't a surprise to me. I don't buy it for a few reasons. Kokusho is a first-order strategy even when he's "accidentally degenerate". Scrambling to drain each others' life is an effective tactic when players haven't been exposed to more powerful strategies. Newer players overestimate life a lot because it's the "score" that is most visible to you, but it is an intangible resource that doesn't directly affect your ability to play Magic. Is it really out of the question for casual groups dominated by first-order strategies to be able to acclimate to a problem card like Kokusho?
Besides, Kokusho was banned simultaneously with Recurring Nightmare. We never got a chance to see what Kokusho would be like when it didn't have such an incredibly powerful enabler around. A lot has changed since Kokusho was banned nearly four years ago.
To me, the spirit of Commander is to pack 100 cards that you think can take on all comers and go to war. Nothing breaks this more than having a card in your deck that can go fetch one of 10 specific answers to problems that you don't think are significant enough to warrant putting in your main deck. A player could build a deck to work on a very unusual interaction or strategy, and someone uses a Wish to go get the perfect hoser that would, in 19 games out of 20, be a totally dead card.
I obviously have strong thoughts about it, but I'm wondering if you guys use this optional rule when you play.
EDH: U Arcum Dagsson (primer!) U
I initially liked the optional sideboard idea as a method of getting cards rotating through decks (helping keep the format fresh, which can be a problem in Eternal formats) and players being able to have a chance to deal with singularly difficult generals. They were never intended to make your deck effectively 110 cards. I dislike what the rule has turned into.
Don't let anyone force you into letting them play with the optional rule.
If that's the reason, how about allowing 90 card main decks with 10 card wishboards?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Is it one of those "If we wanted players to have 110 cards, we would of given them 110 cards as the deck size, types of things?"
Also, are there any cards that are currently on the border of being banned? What I mean is, are there any cards where, 1 or 2 more synergous cards and it'll be the death knell for card X?
Not to speak for him but i think the point is "You have 99 cards and a general to work with and win with"
sorry if that comes off rude.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicySales
Legacy
Punishing Depths :symg::symu::symr:
Faithless Dredge :symb::symu::symr::symw::symg: