Infinite combo

  • #1
    What defines one of these. One of my playgroups says no infinite combos, but im not sure what would be kosher or not. I hate getting Sad Sacc'd and I need to deal with a Scion Player who traumatizes himself and recurs all the creatures...but I can't use my Palinchron+High Tide+Capsize combo.
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  • #2
    Play Gather Specimens to blow him out and teach him to try a new trick.

    Infinite mana with buyback is viewed as infinite to some and I guess likely is when you bounce everything on board. Infinite Mana just for something big might be viewed more acceptably.
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  • #3
  • #4
    Quote from MiffedMoogle
    Play Gather Specimens to blow him out and teach him to try a new trick.

    Infinite mana with buyback is viewed as infinite to some and I guess likely is when you bounce everything on board. Infinite Mana just for something big might be viewed more acceptably.


    but they say no infinite combos and anytime I play an easily repeatable combo, they call it infinite.

    Edit: My issue is what really defines infinite and what are some powerful combos or things to stop sad sac or the ilk.
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  • #5
    Quote from Macius
    but they say no infinite combos and anytime I play an easily repeatable combo, they call it infinite.


    Can you repeat it unlimited times in the same turn?
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  • #6
    Quote from Tantarus
    Can you repeat it unlimited times in the same turn?


    True, but answer me....is niv-mizzet and Ophidian Eye infinite? If it is, then there is an issue, because they allow it.
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  • #7
    Quote from Macius
    True, but answer me....is niv-mizzet and Ophidian Eye infinite? If it is, then there is an issue, because they allow it.


    It is in the same area as infinite combos. If your playgroup is against infinites but pro niv/eye then they can go screw themselves for being hypocrites. Sounds like whiny players to me.

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  • #8
    Quote from Macius
    True, but answer me....is niv-mizzet and Ophidian Eye infinite? If it is, then there is an issue, because they allow it.


    Technically Speaking, not without a discard outlet and eldrazi. As you can only do damage = to your deck size. That said everyone I know would consider it close enough. It is banned at all my groups along with any other infinity combo.

    Quote from Jivanmukta
    It is in the same area as infinite combos. If your playgroup is against infinites but pro niv/eye then they can go screw themselves for being hypocrites. Sounds like whiny players to me.


    I kinda got to agree with this. To allow that and complain about other harder to assemble combos is pretty silly. That is a 1 card combo with your general. Most other combos take 2 cards from the deck at least.
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  • #9
    Quote from Jivanmukta
    It is in the same area as infinite combos. If your playgroup is against infinites but pro niv/eye then they can go screw themselves for being hypocrites. Sounds like whiny players to me.


    I played niv-mizzet and someone said "you playing ophidian eye, because you should..."

    Im playing a Zeedru deck and Niv is there just in case Zeedru goes away.

    Its a house rule, and I probably wasn't clear. You can only activate a combo once. So palin. and high tide only would get me U and i couldn't play the chron until next turn.
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  • #10
    I would say an infinite combo is anything that gets you infinite life, creatures, mana etc. in one phase. I.e. turntimber ranger and xonspiracy, palichron and phantasmal image, etc

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  • #11
    Quote from Macius
    What defines one of these. One of my playgroups says no infinite combos, but im not sure what would be kosher or not. I hate getting Sad Sacc'd and I need to deal with a Scion Player who traumatizes himself and recurs all the creatures...but I can't use my Palinchron+High Tide+Capsize combo.


    Important Distinction: That's an arbitrarily large combo. An infinite combo is what happens when three Faceless Butchers get played in a row without any other creatures to target or a way to get rid of one of them.

    One results in the game ending immediately because the action cannot be resolved. The other has a high probability of ending the game because you just let it build up until you have the requisite resources to kill everyone else at the same time.
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  • #12
    Quote from Ace5301
    I would say an infinite combo is anything that gets you infinite life, creatures, mana etc. in one phase. I.e. turntimber ranger and xonspiracy, palichron and phantasmal image, etc


    but what if i use an "infinite combo" to get 10 creatures or 10 mana. With them, if they deem it infinite, i only get 1.

    lets look at this popular combo.

    Lark/Guide Combo!!:

    Karmic Guide + Reveillark + Continuing Sac Outlet = An infinite loop of Lark and Guide entering/leaving the battlefield. The third piece of the combo can have varying effects:

    Blasting Station = Kill the table
    Altar of Dementia = Mill the table (iffy due to Eldrazi creatures)
    Ashnod's Altar = Infinite Mana for an Exsanguinate or Profane Command
    Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter = Infinite creature kill and infinitely large vampire.

    You can also follow the 1,000 Lark/Guide recursions with a Bitter Ordeal and exile everyones library.


    Yes, I know he says infinite in there, but what if I only want to activate the Blasting Station combo to quell a masive elf army. well, I can only deal 1 damage and thats it....combo over.

    My massive irk is that the group is full of experienced players who grind lots of tourneys

    Quote from Sinfire Titan


    Important Distinction: That's an arbitrarily large combo. An infinite combo is what happens when three Faceless Butchers get played in a row without any other creatures to target or a way to get rid of one of them.

    One results in the game ending immediately because the action cannot be resolved. The other has a high probability of ending the game because you just let it build up until you have the requisite resources to kill everyone else at the same time.


    Ah...but they call it infinite and say I can only do it once. there is where my issue lies. I run so many combos that can go infinite with the right set-up and I think its there fault if they dont stop me. Kill palinchron, counter High tide. Play stuff that makes me lose life when I draw a card or tap lands.
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  • #13
    I don't think you will get an acceptable definition here since your playgroup actually made that rule up as they go along :p

    I don't believe that the rules actually define what is infinite -- the closest thing it has come to mentioning "infinite" is a "loop of mandatory actions".

    If your friends are mathematicians, argue that as long as the combo is repeated in a finite number of times, it is probably not infinite -- if necessary, convince them by giving a finite number of your combo repetition (say, "42"). If your friends are philosophers, convince them that "infinity" does not exist and therefore it is impossible to "go infinite", so to speak (mandatory loops are an exception rather than the rule and would result in a draw anyway). If your friends are conversant neither in mathematics or philosophy, convince them that the very concept of infinity would drive them mad, insane, MAD, INSANE!!11!1!! Incidentally, that was how I became insane but never mind that.
  • #14
    Quote from fzian
    I don't think you will get an acceptable definition here since your playgroup actually made that rule up as they go along :p

    I don't believe that the rules actually define what is infinite -- the closest thing it has come to mentioning "infinite" is a "loop of mandatory actions".

    If your friends are mathematicians, argue that as long as the combo is repeated in a finite number of times, it is probably not infinite -- if necessary, convince them by giving a finite number of your combo repetition (say, "42"). If your friends are philosophers, convince them that "infinity" does not exist and therefore it is impossible to "go infinite", so to speak (mandatory loops are an exception rather than the rule and would result in a draw anyway). If your friends are conversant neither in mathematics or philosophy, convince them that the very concept of infinity would drive them mad, insane, MAD, INSANE!!11!1!! Incidentally, that was how I became insane but never mind that.


    sorry, but to them, the only magic number is 1 in their case. I also find it funny that im the head EDH guy there and they neuter my decks with that. I play with a casual edh group that has no issue with me doing it.

    TL;DR my issues:

    competitive group has a bigger issue with infinite than a casual group, and all I want is a massive amount of blue to stop a token onslaught.
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  • #15
    Quote from Macius
    sorry, but to them, the only magic number is 1 in their case.

    That's... pretty restrictive Confused

    Just for curiousity, under your competitive playgroup's house rule, what would happen if: -
    1. In a multiplayer game of more than two players, if two players control a Consecrated Sphinx, what happens when one of them draw?
    2. In a multiplayer game of more than two players, how many times can two players negotiate with their Trade Secrets?
  • #16
    Quote from fzian
    That's... pretty restrictive Confused

    Just for curiousity, under your competitive playgroup's house rule, what would happen if: -
    1. In a multiplayer game of more than two players, if two players control a Consecrated Sphinx, what happens when one of them draw?
    2. In a multiplayer game of more than two players, how many times can two players negotiate with their Trade Secrets?


    1. Once
    2. Not a combo, as much as you like.

    I almost would want the RC to say something like "arbitrarily large combos, while they can be unfun, should not be discredited."
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  • #17
    The simple answer seems to just run a sweeper?

    Quote from Macius

    I almost would want the RC to say something like "arbitrarily large combos, while they can be unfun, should not be discredited."


    This really sounds like a Play group issue, not a rules issue to me. Your not being really clear like you are trying to hide your agenda. Does this sum it up? You have infinity combos and you want to run them for the instant win, But your play group says no?

    Also I am pretty sure while the RC does not want to removal auto win combos, they certainly do openly frown on them and discredit them. See "Johnny Funwrecker".
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  • #18
    Quote from Tantarus
    The simple answer seems to just run a sweeper?



    This really sounds like a Play group issue, not a rules issue to me. Your not being really clear like you are trying to hide your agenda. Does this sum it up? You have infinity combos and you want to run them for the instant win, But your play group says no?

    Also I am pretty sure while the RC does not want to removal auto win combos, they certainly do openly frown on them and discredit them. See "Johnny Funwrecker".


    I like to use a lot of infinite combos to not outright win the game, but to put me in a position where I can answer anything coming my way. The only time an infinite combo was used by me to get rid of someone was when a guy dropped erayo and tried casting an arcane lab after she had flipped.

    I love big splashy plays.
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  • #19
    Play a deck with non-infinite combos you can do a LOT. For example, Patron of the Orochi + Greater Good + Concordant Crossroads. With a whole to of mana doublers, you can only use the combo around 300 times before Patron costs too much to recast. Not infinite, but provides on the order of several hundred thousand mana. Generally sufficient.
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  • #20
    Quote from Macius
    I like to use a lot of infinite combos to not outright win the game, but to put me in a position where I can answer anything coming my way. The only time an infinite combo was used by me to get rid of someone was when a guy dropped erayo and tried casting an arcane lab after she had flipped.

    I love big splashy plays.


    Honestly that is kinda worse. You want to lord of the game with the ability to win but not use it.
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  • #21
    Quote from tedv
    Play a deck with non-infinite combos you can do a LOT. For example, Patron of the Orochi + Greater Good + Concordant Crossroads. With a whole to of mana doublers, you can only use the combo around 300 times before Patron costs too much to recast. Not infinite, but provides on the order of several hundred thousand mana. Generally sufficient.


    but that in their mind would be close to infinite and I could only do it once:

    Let me rephrase my whole discussion, what could I use to show them that anything I do can be responded to. I have no issues being on the end of a large combo that kills me. I'd rather hate Sad sacc and LD, because they leave me sitting there not being able to do anything.
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  • #22
    My group was whining about things like infinite combos and clones killing untargetable generals, and tried to put in stupid rules to counteract them.

    One of the biggest reasons that they gave for disliking the infinite combos was that they were "not interactive". To counter this arguement, I pointed out that they were the ones tapping out every turn to play big fat creatures every turn, and chosing to not interact with the combo.

    I also pointed out that most infinite combos involve a creature (in our group often Palinchron), so any deck should be able to remove a creature at instant speed, and any deck should be able to interact with an infinite combo. The only reason the infinite combos were ending the games were due to poor deck building or poor playing.

    I would propose that you offer the following rule to your group:

    Any infinite combo must be answerable by creature removal - something every deck should have.
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  • #23
    Quote from that0neguy
    My group was whining about things like infinite combos and clones killing untargetable generals, and tried to put in stupid rules to counteract them.

    One of the biggest reasons that they gave for disliking the infinite combos was that they were "not interactive". To counter this arguement, I pointed out that they were the ones tapping out every turn to play big fat creatures every turn, and chosing to not interact with the combo.

    I also pointed out that most infinite combos involve a creature (in our group often Palinchron), so any deck should be able to remove a creature at instant speed, and any deck should be able to interact with an infinite combo. The only reason the infinite combos were ending the games were due to poor deck building or poor playing.

    I would propose that you offer the following rule to your group:

    Any infinite combo must be answerable by creature removal - something every deck should have.


    I'll play Devil's advocate here and say "what about the lark/guide combo? In reponse to your creature removal, i'll sack it and still go on with it". My 3rd issue with banning infinites is that if you remove a piece, well there foes the combo. Also, one game you go infinite, the next your public enemy number one. I dont mind being that guy.
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  • #24
    Quote from Macius
    I'll play Devil's advocate here and say "what about the lark/guide combo? In reponse to your creature removal, i'll sack it and still go on with it". My 3rd issue with banning infinites is that if you remove a piece, well there foes the combo. Also, one game you go infinite, the next your public enemy number one. I dont mind being that guy.


    There is generally an opportunity to remove some part of the 'Lark combo without allowing them to continue it. If the sac outlet is Blasting Station, you can exile or tuck one of the creatures in response to the untap trigger on the station. If it's some other sac outlet, you have to destroy the sac outlet itself, generally in response to the 'lark trigger.
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  • #25
    Quote from Wildfire393
    There is generally an opportunity to remove some part of the 'Lark combo without allowing them to continue it. If the sac outlet is Blasting Station, you can exile or tuck one of the creatures in response to the untap trigger on the station. If it's some other sac outlet, you have to destroy the sac outlet itself, generally in response to the 'lark trigger.


    Very true, I was just countering his rule idea (it was a good one actually)

    This was the table I was at

    Rafiq
    Olivia
    Scion
    Doran
    Azami (me)

    Can anyone tell me honestly what the odds are that at a competitive table, with those colors, no one is playing artifact/creature removal nor counters?


    My whole thing is that if a card/combo beats you, find a way to either stop or negate it. Adapt your deck or die more or less.
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