Jund Commander Change

  • #1
    So I have been playing Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund for a while and with my most recent build of him I have been questioning more and more if he is the right commander for this particular build of Jund. I currently have a more creature interactive build and I am sort of just dropping Karrthus in to try to finish off the game. The problem is with his high mana cost and the fact that he doesnt do anything for quite some time I have been considering swapping to another option. I have built several jund decks now and no I will not consider going back to Kresh the Bloodbraided because I hate him. My list for Karrthus can be found in my sig if you want to see what my list looks like.

    I was considering the following commander changes to:

    Adun Oakenshield low casting cost + built in creature recursion is sort of cute. I sort of feel like his activation of his ability is a bit overcosted but still it is creature rez to hand on a stick which is cool.

    Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper I have built him once before now and he can be fun but I dont like how expensive he is to cast and how he sort of requires a lot of building up to be good. He doesnt do much on his own if you get owned by something and he sort of died / was stolen a lot last time without allowing the wraths to kick tokens out for me.

    Xira Arien card draw and flying on a low costed commander. One of my biggest complaints is always wanting more card draw in my decks and while 3 mana for a card isnt the cheapest card draw out there I like how she can also be flying defense if need be or carry equipment in the air for some evasive beater. Currently I was sort of leaning towards her for the card draw + evasive blocker out of my options.

    Obviously if I were to change commanders the deck would need some reworking. With Adun and Xira I would need more wincons as currently Karrthus is a big wincon currently. Thoughts on this? My own personal preference was sort of leaning me more towards Xira Arien currently but I thought I would open this up for a little debit to see if anyone had anything to chime in with.
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  • #2
    It's pretty funny; Xira is pretty much the Jund Jenara. You'd be playing her twin!

    That said, I like her a lot more than Jenara. For the same cost, instead of getting a fatty angel with zero utility, I get an insect mademoiselle that provides CA when I need it. And is good at holding equipment.

    The fact that she's an insect wearing a ball dress is so undeniably awesome. I believe she is also an assassin of Bolas. My vote goes to her. Now I want to make her. Damn.
    GUKruphix Krux GWA Rhys to the Past URGSorcerer Supreme

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  • #3
    Quote from DramaTurtle
    It's pretty funny; Xira is pretty much the Jund Jenara. You'd be playing her twin!

    That said, I like her a lot more than Jenara. For the same cost, instead of getting a fatty angel with zero utility, I get an insect mademoiselle that provides CA when I need it. And is good at holding equipment.

    The fact that she's an insect wearing a ball dress is so undeniably awesome. I believe she is also an assassin of Bolas. My vote goes to her. Now I want to make her. Damn.


    Thanks I do like her a lot and I think your comment made me like her even more. She is fairly bad ass looking and vastly under utilized.
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  • #4
    See, I have the same problem currently. I play Teneb as my general but I hate him as a fat over-costed guy, just like you do Karrthus. Just as a side note, what would you suggest playing in these colours? I've tried them all before.
    GUKruphix Krux GWA Rhys to the Past URGSorcerer Supreme

    Quote from Burntgerbil
    Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
  • #5
    Personally I love the idea of a Ghave, Guru of Spores control list. I know he tends to turn into combo but I think he could also make a good just solid control commander. I tried to do it for a while but I gave up due to already having other projects in W/G control.
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  • #6
    Interesting. I myself was thinking of switching to Doran and just using him as a cheap player abuser. Three colour, three cost generals for the win!
    GUKruphix Krux GWA Rhys to the Past URGSorcerer Supreme

    Quote from Burntgerbil
    Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
  • #7
    Ya... I would agree with the change if you want to keep it fairly similar to its current setup. At least you are shaving off a few mana on the cost and dropping a creature almost as large.

    EDIT: Ehh I went ahead and ordered a Legends Xira Arien... I think she will fit nicely with my playstyle.
    Last edited by ISBPathfinder: 11/2/2011 11:23:20 AM
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  • #8
    Personally, I love my Adun Oakenshield ETB deck. Lots of fun.
  • #9
    I don't understand this question. Decks are designed around their commanders, not their generals. You can't just swap in a new general and expect it to work. If I were to change commanders, I would probably keep the lands and rework the rest of the deck from the ground up.

    Rather than asking which commander fits your deck best, ask which commander you want to play and just make a new deck.
    Quote from love_blanket
    The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
  • #10
    Quote from tedv
    I don't understand this question. Decks are designed around their commanders, not their generals. You can't just swap in a new general and expect it to work. If I were to change commanders, I would probably keep the lands and rework the rest of the deck from the ground up.

    Rather than asking which commander fits your deck best, ask which commander you want to play and just make a new deck.

    They can be but they don't need to be. I have several decks that I could swap to a different commander without changing a single card, in fact I just recently did that with my monoblack deck.
  • #11
    Quote from tedv
    I don't understand this question. Decks are designed around their commanders, not their generals. You can't just swap in a new general and expect it to work. If I were to change commanders, I would probably keep the lands and rework the rest of the deck from the ground up.

    Rather than asking which commander fits your deck best, ask which commander you want to play and just make a new deck.


    I agree, but there are times where you want to work with a deck skeleton based on a particular colour combination, and you just need that last guy to lead the deck.

    For example, I would play Bant interchangeably with Jenara or Rafiq, because they're not build around at all. Likewise, in my example, Teneb is just a fat guy and is easily interchangeable with other Necra generals.
    GUKruphix Krux GWA Rhys to the Past URGSorcerer Supreme

    Quote from Burntgerbil
    Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
  • #12
    More to the point, it seems like the Karthuss list was just, "good cards in Jund colors." I suspect you're not happy with the deck because the general doesn't interact with it. It's easier to find cards that fit a general than a general that fits cards though, because there's a grand total of 5 commanders in those colors, but roughly 7000 cards you could legally include in the deck.

    I view deck design as an iterative process:

    1) Select general.
    2) Determine what kind of game flow will optimize that general's utility.
    3) Pick cards that engineer that kind of game flow.

    You can't do step 1 without doing steps 2 and 3.
    Quote from love_blanket
    The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
  • #13
    Quote from tedv
    More to the point, it seems like the Karthuss list was just, "good cards in Jund colors." I suspect you're not happy with the deck because the general doesn't interact with it. It's easier to find cards that fit a general than a general that fits cards though, because there's a grand total of 5 commanders in those colors, but roughly 7000 cards you could legally include in the deck.

    I view deck design as an iterative process:

    1) Select general.
    2) Determine what kind of game flow will optimize that general's utility.
    3) Pick cards that engineer that kind of game flow.

    You can't do step 1 without doing steps 2 and 3.



    Sure you can.

    1) Select colors and game-play style you enjoy.
    2) Determine what kind of game flow will optimize that goal, build deck accordingly.
    3) Select general.
    4) Play Commander, have fun, everyone wins.


    twitter.com/bccarlso decks: Rasputin, Chainer, ChildCrusher, Kiki, Maelstrom, Thrax, Zedruu
  • #14
    Here's how I match the different Jund generals with game flow:

    Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund:

    This general operates as a win condition, though admittedly still a slow one. He can kill one player in 2 (additional) turns, but it's going to be hard to clean the table with him since it's 3 attacks for each person beyond that. There's also the problem that while he gives dragons haste, he'll generally come out AFTER you've deployed your dragons, not before. Even if you just relegate this guy to being a win condition, it just means you have to build the rest of your deck as control cards to stay alive. Control in BRG is equivalent to killing stuff, which makes Kresh a much better general since he only requires 1 attack to kill people. I don't see a reason to play Karrthus unless you want a dragon theme deck (which you clearly aren't interested in).

    Darigaaz, the Igniter:

    This guy is like Karrthus but worse. He kills slower, doesn't have haste, and has a worthless ability. No reason to ever play this guy as a general.

    Kresh the Bloodbraided:

    Kresh rewards you for killing creatures. If you do so while he's in play, you can one-shot people. This means Kresh can be dedicated as your win condition and you can focus the rest of the deck on playing board control. Kresh decks want a lot of efficient removal options that leave Kresh in play.

    Sek'kuar Deathkeeper:

    As a reward for killing creatures, Sek'kuar doesn't offer the same benefits as Kresh. However, Sek'kuar does act as a source of permanent generation (something Kresh cannot do). Attacking with a 3/1 haste creature is almost never useful in this format, but he rewards you for sacrificing your own creatures with more creatures to sacrifice. I'm relatively sure you could build some infinite combos around this general and things like Cloudstone Curio and/or reanimation effects. This is a general for a combo deck.

    Adun Oakenshield:

    This guy provides incremental card advantage at a cheap cost. He wants lots of utility creatures with ETB triggers and ways to sacrifice them. So he wants a similar card base to Sek'kuar, but with more of an eye on winning the game through long term attrition rather than comboing off.

    Xira Arien:

    Another form of incremental card advantage. Unlike Adun Oakenshield though, Xira Arien does not mandate playing large quantities of creatures. The downside is that she cannot pick what card she draws, while Adun Oakenshield can pick what creature he brings back.

    So to summarize, the options for genuinely good Jund decks are:

    Kresh with large quantities of creature removal
    Sek'kuar combo
    Adun Oakenshield with ETB creatures
    Xira Arien goodstuff control
    Quote from love_blanket
    The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
  • #15
    Excuse me, Vaevictis Asmadi would like to have a word with you over his lack of invitation to your party.


    I also have to nitpick on:
    Quote from tedv
    but it's going to be hard to clean the table with him since it's 3 attacks for each person beyond that.


    You're in red, the best color for pump, haste, doublestrike, and extra attack steps. You're in black, which is a great color for pump, and evasion. You're in green, which is a great color for pump, trample, and ramping like a fool, as well as recurring anything else you have going on.

    You should be letting people FEEL YOUR FURY!



    (Psychotic Fury is an awesome card, just as a small detail)
    Last edited by bobthefunny: 11/2/2011 12:20:12 PM
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  • #16
    I understand your concerns Tedv and while I believe it will require me to redesign the deck some what I was looking for was the commander I feel would be best for some version of my current list. I need to change things like increase my control and wincons now with the change of the commander but I wanted the feel of the deck to stay mostly the same and just change how my commander is involved with the deck.

    Generally speaking I prefur a little more control and a little less of people feeling that they are required to take out me and or my commander at all times. Not that I like playing bad cards but I like playing a bit more subtley which is just how I like doing things. I think that Xira Arien is good at this as she doesnt appear all that powerful and in all likelihood I will be rewarded for keeping up mana more with her as I can control respond or draw cards with her.
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  • #17
    For what it's worth, your deck looks like Jund Goodstuff, and Xira Arien is the best match for that, so I agree with you there.
    Quote from love_blanket
    The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
  • #18
    Quote from bobthefunny
    EYou're in red, the best color for pump, haste, doublestrike, and extra attack steps. You're in black, which is a great color for pump, and evasion. You're in green, which is a great color for pump, trample, and ramping like a fool, as well as recurring anything else you have going on.

    You should be letting people FEEL YOUR FURY!

    (Psychotic Fury is an awesome card, just as a small detail)


    Agreed! These things are basically the premise of my Karrthus: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=368334

    But yes, it sounds like Xira fits ISBPathfinder the best.
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