My wife and I were having a discussion and she asked how I did at the lastest EDH multiplayer group. I said, "I had a great time, and I probably could have won, but I didn't. It was awesome."
She couldn't quite understand why I didn't go for the win when I had the chance.
For me, the game is about fun. And I've found that I've been building my decks to be good enough to win and good enough to be competitive, but I don't pilot them as aggressive as I'd need to actually win out. I find joy in someone else winning as long as I have proven that I have the skills to compete.
Usually I'll wait till it's been a longer-ish game. If I do have an early game combo, I'll play it early if my opponents are more hardcore/competitive. Otherwise I'll just play until I can beat someone down or somesuch. If it has gone on forever I'll tutor up combo pieces to end the game.
Well, I have to admit that the people in my playgroup are all super competitive (as am I), so I play to win at all costs. However, if my playgroup were more casual oriented, I would try to adjust my style of play to that of a more casual nature.
I do admit, though, that I might have a hard time not going for the win each and every game where the opportunity presents itself. I'm always thinking to myself while I play. I'll ask myself, 'Okay, what is the best thing to do in this situation?' Sometimes it's an obvious answer; sometimes it's not so obvious (I used to play a lot of competitive Magic years ago, so maybe that's where I get this mentality from). I mean, if anyone here had the option to make the game last longer by making the wrong move/playing the wrong card, would you do it (I hope I'm making sense)? Because the more I think about it, the more I am not sure if I could intentionally hold off a game ending play to make the game last longer. Why not just end the game and move on to the next? I'm sure if other players found out that someone at the table could have won X amount of turns earlier, but they held back for some reason, they would/could get pretty irritated. I know I would. Especially if I had been the one to win the game, but later found out that an opponent of mine was intentionally holding back the winning play. I would feel pretty cheated, and it would make the win unsatisfactory (I hope I haven't gone too far off topic).
I just don't see the point in ever intentionally holding back the game ending play. As I aforementioned, if you can end the game outright, why not just end it, and move on to the next game.
Are people like me and my playgroup, people who play to win at all costs, the minority in Commander?
If I have a combo in hand I dont like using it early on, I will usually wait until really late in the game and if it looks like someone else will win I will try to execute it.
In decks that dont combo out I play as aggressively as I can. I don't hold my punches but I will hold back cards depending on how the game is going if I think that someone might wrath the board.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I usually am not a fan of people not winning when they could. This applies to casual groups too. If you want to have long games, you can power down your deck or build in some restrictions (no infinite combos, etc), but don't softball the game if you've got it. Just win and we'll shuffle up again.
Another reason it frustrates me is that this attitude really underestimates your opponents. I have played with people who brag at the end of a game they lost "oh I could have won turn 5 with exarch/twin" (or whatever wincon) and I often want to say "why didn't you try? I was holding a counterspell/swords to plowshares/etc."
I have the most fun with EDH when my opponents are trying to win. Even if we're all playing with casual or janky decks, it really takes the joy out of it if people don't care about the object of the game anymore.
Why bother with life totals at that point? Let's just play cards until we get bored or our hands get tired and call it a night. If you deck yourself just grab another deck and keep playing. That's not magic anymore, and it's a waste of everyone's time.
Are people like me and my playgroup, people who play to win at all costs, the minority in Commander?
No. I think that there are a lot of people like that, but others are more for the big plays aspect of EDH so they would rather do something and then win after more awesome stuff happens.
Because of my deck (heavy control) I have to go for the win or everyone takes me out. i don't have the income to have 4-5 decks for edh. Most of the people we play with though play to win, but they play smart and political as well. That's what brings the fun to me.
The way we play, everyone goes for the win, but not too many people have built their decks to be all about getting said win, tending to prioritise fun up to a point. That way, you still have fun, sprawling games, but you don't have to purposefully play badly or not take opportunities. Makes a lot more sense that way, in my mind.
I guess my favorite times to win, are when you feel like you are michael jordan beating the other team with an out of no where shot right at the buzzer. You remember those alot more.
As of right now, I only have one EDH deck, and it's built for competitive 1v1 matches. Now, I'm a competitive person by nature, but I just don't see the point of making cutthroat multiplayer decks. For me, the multiplayer scene is all about being chill and having a good time with friends. When I play multiplayer, I tend to play more politically and may dick around from time to time just to have some fun. Now, this doesn't mean that I don't try to win when I have the opportunity. It's just that the multiplayer scene and 1v1 scene are completely different.
Some of you may think that you have made great mistakes in your lives, and perhaps you have. But let me ask you this.... did you ever play strip poker with two fat chicks and win?
I guess I would say that when the opportunity to win is available, I take it. But I am definitely a casual player, no question about it. First and foremost that comes across in my deckbuilding. If I don't build the deck to do terrible things, that opens up my play so that I can go for the win, like I'm used to doing in other formats.
Does that mean I'm constantly attacking unarmed players and blowing up Karoo lands with Strip Mines? No. Partly because this is not playing for the win. P*ssing people off will generally get you killed, as will leaving yourself defenseless by attacking a lot and leaving yourself without Strip Mines when people then play Maze of Iths and such.
BUT, there is probably part of this play style that is also doing something along the lines of "being nice." I'd rather see one of my mana-screwed opponents get back into the game and play some Magic rather than further mana screwing them by blowing up what lands they do have. So that might not be an example of "playing to win." But generally I do. If I have a game-winning Insurrection/Goblin Bombardment play or something, I take it. Then again, if I draw Tooth and Nail, I might just go get Primeval Titan and Avenger of Zendikar instead of a game-winning combo, especially if the game is early on and other players haven't done much yet.
All in all, interesting question!
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I just don't see the point in ever intentionally holding back the game ending play. As I aforementioned, if you can end the game outright, why not just end it, and move on to the next game.
Are people like me and my playgroup, people who play to win at all costs, the minority in Commander?
I'd rather play an hour long game where everyone gets to play all their big, splashy cards and everyone interacts, plays politics, etc, than four fifteen minute games where someone tutors up their combo and wins on turn 5.
That's just me, though.
Before you ask, yeah, I don't hate combos because they beat me all the time. They get disrupted usually, so it turns into a half hour long game where everyone is rushing because one person made himself a target and got knocked out after 10 minutes, and everyone else feels rude playing while he's siting there with nothing to do.
Well, I have to admit that the people in my playgroup are all super competitive (as am I), so I play to win at all costs. However, if my playgroup were more casual oriented, I would try to adjust my style of play to that of a more casual nature.
I do admit, though, that I might have a hard time not going for the win each and every game where the opportunity presents itself. I'm always thinking to myself while I play. I'll ask myself, 'Okay, what is the best thing to do in this situation?' Sometimes it's an obvious answer; sometimes it's not so obvious (I used to play a lot of competitive Magic years ago, so maybe that's where I get this mentality from). I mean, if anyone here had the option to make the game last longer by making the wrong move/playing the wrong card, would you do it (I hope I'm making sense)? Because the more I think about it, the more I am not sure if I could intentionally hold off a game ending play to make the game last longer. Why not just end the game and move on to the next? I'm sure if other players found out that someone at the table could have won X amount of turns earlier, but they held back for some reason, they would/could get pretty irritated. I know I would. Especially if I had been the one to win the game, but later found out that an opponent of mine was intentionally holding back the winning play. I would feel pretty cheated, and it would make the win unsatisfactory (I hope I haven't gone too far off topic).
I just don't see the point in ever intentionally holding back the game ending play. As I aforementioned, if you can end the game outright, why not just end it, and move on to the next game.
Are people like me and my playgroup, people who play to win at all costs, the minority in Commander?
I agree with most of what you said here. It infuriates me when someone says "I could have won at such and such a time, if only I had done this" It's total BS because I'm sure at lease one person had something to stop whatever it is you are convinced would have won you the game.
I agree with most of what you said here. It infuriates me when someone says "I could have won at such and such a time, if only I had done this" It's total BS because I'm sure at lease one person had something to stop whatever it is you are convinced would have won you the game.
/rant
Well yeah, it's fine to not go for the kill but you don't get to b*tch about it later! lol. I do hate when I later realize that I could've gotten the kill and didn't see it though. And usually someone else does it the next turn with a mono-green deck, so I know no one had an answer for mine! Ugh. But these are embarrassing moments that I don't even tell people about, much less b*tch about
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Once the game is in motion, I will do everything in my power to win that is legally permitted by the game. This is why I'm playing this particular game instead of a role-playing game; it's fun and competitive. At the end of the day, the goal is to win. Unlike some others (and their methodology is fine as well), I don't care how I win, because if I have it in my deck, it's there to be used. If I have tools in my deck that let me manipulate the resources of others to win, I am aware of it, and will always use it best I can.
I guess a crappy analogy is that some Commander players like to finish their opponents off with 'epic', spectacular plays after long struggles, kind of like pro wrestlers. I am more like Jason Bourne. If I win because I stabbed a guy with a pen or choked him with a towel, well, it got the job done even if it isn't flashy.
I like the competition to be based around the actual gameplay instead of a race to degeneracy in deck construction and capital spent on card acquisition. This is why I think that if you're making 'antisocial' plays, the problem is in deck construction and not during play. Unless you're just straight-out griefing, which almost always implicates exceptionally poor play.
Commander is a game where you play to beat your opponents, but with agreed-upon terms prior to the engagement. It's a collaborative experience, but I also still like to be playing Magic, so in the game, I always try to win as hard as I can. I hope that makes sense.
I guess a crappy analogy is that some Commander players like to finish their opponents off with 'epic', spectacular plays after long struggles, kind of like pro wrestlers. I am more like Jason Bourne. If I win because I stabbed a guy with a pen or choked him with a towel, well, it got the job done even if it isn't flashy.
Well, I think the analogy would be that killing someone in a boring way is like shooting them with a gun point blank when they're defenseless. This, I'll do, but it doesn't make me as happy as a good pen-stab to the throat (deal 1 to you with Chandra, which kills you) or even a big Die Hard style explosion (Consume Spirit for 35? OK... Wild Ricochet, kill both opponents on the spot). Not sure why both examples had to be red...
But yeah. I'll definitely kill someone if the opportunity is there, interesting kill or not. To not do so feels more like you're trying to manufacture a good game out of a bad one. It's contrived. But I'd much rather something happen that is either big and flashy, or probably even better, something very small, creative and synergistic but not an obvious combo.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I have played games where I could have completely wrecked the game by playing things like Azusa turn 2 followed by playing Storm Cauldron turn 3 with Burgeoning in play. I also had a game where I had a turn 2 Quicksilver Amulet with a turn 3 It that Betrays in my hand and I showed the cards to my opponents and I just shuffled in the eldrazi and we carried on with the game. The first game I waited a few turns and just ramped out with Azusa and raced the table. I would rather play to have fun and see what happens. If you only play so you can win, I think you completely miss the purpose of this format.
I generally allow the game to progress naturally and try not to combo out early. However, if I have lethal damage on a player in any situation, unless it benefits me to leave him alive to go after a different opponent, I'm going to take that person out. In addition, I won't hesitate to steal the win away from another player with a combo if I have no other outs to the game state. I enjoy an epic game, but I love winning almost as much, and no matter what the position is, if it looks like I'm going to lose, I will do everything in my power to win.
I assume what you are asking is when during the game is it right to go for the win. Because naturally, while the game is fun, nobody is sitting down hoping to lose. Their is usually a point in the game where you get an opening to take serious control of the game, while making yourself a huge target in the process. You have to decide whether or not this is the right opening or whether you really do need to wait for another opening because you can be stopped too easily. Its honestly a judgement call. For me a lot of EDH games come down to who is the first to blink, he who does gets stopped and it opens the door for a counterpunch. Honestly it is easier when you know your playgroup. If playing 1 v 1 I just go for the win as soon as possible. : /
But why do you have those cards in your deck then?
(For example, around here games can be more or less competitive depending on the composition of the group and the mood. A jhoira player has mass LD cards in the deck for the competitive games, but if it's played more casually, he 'cycles' them)
I run most of the cards because they make my deck good, and fun, but sometimes, you stumble upon some rediculous draws that make game states unfun. Cauldron is a mid-game win-con by itself as nobody wants to play spells and return lands to their hands. Burgeoning is awesome ramp, but you can run out of gas fast unless you have some draw. That is the case with those three cards.
I run Quicksilver Amulet because I can play any creature spell for 4. It that Betrays is in a MB sac deck that basically leaves the board empty of creatures except my own. If I had the possibility to play some other big beatstick on turn 3, I'd drop it, but that card just says I win on turn three and I get all of your stuff. Mid-late game its great to have.
She couldn't quite understand why I didn't go for the win when I had the chance.
For me, the game is about fun. And I've found that I've been building my decks to be good enough to win and good enough to be competitive, but I don't pilot them as aggressive as I'd need to actually win out. I find joy in someone else winning as long as I have proven that I have the skills to compete.
What about you all?
Building silly decks for silly games.
I do admit, though, that I might have a hard time not going for the win each and every game where the opportunity presents itself. I'm always thinking to myself while I play. I'll ask myself, 'Okay, what is the best thing to do in this situation?' Sometimes it's an obvious answer; sometimes it's not so obvious (I used to play a lot of competitive Magic years ago, so maybe that's where I get this mentality from). I mean, if anyone here had the option to make the game last longer by making the wrong move/playing the wrong card, would you do it (I hope I'm making sense)? Because the more I think about it, the more I am not sure if I could intentionally hold off a game ending play to make the game last longer. Why not just end the game and move on to the next? I'm sure if other players found out that someone at the table could have won X amount of turns earlier, but they held back for some reason, they would/could get pretty irritated. I know I would. Especially if I had been the one to win the game, but later found out that an opponent of mine was intentionally holding back the winning play. I would feel pretty cheated, and it would make the win unsatisfactory (I hope I haven't gone too far off topic).
I just don't see the point in ever intentionally holding back the game ending play. As I aforementioned, if you can end the game outright, why not just end it, and move on to the next game.
Are people like me and my playgroup, people who play to win at all costs, the minority in Commander?
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
In decks that dont combo out I play as aggressively as I can. I don't hold my punches but I will hold back cards depending on how the game is going if I think that someone might wrath the board.
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Another reason it frustrates me is that this attitude really underestimates your opponents. I have played with people who brag at the end of a game they lost "oh I could have won turn 5 with exarch/twin" (or whatever wincon) and I often want to say "why didn't you try? I was holding a counterspell/swords to plowshares/etc."
I have the most fun with EDH when my opponents are trying to win. Even if we're all playing with casual or janky decks, it really takes the joy out of it if people don't care about the object of the game anymore.
Why bother with life totals at that point? Let's just play cards until we get bored or our hands get tired and call it a night. If you deck yourself just grab another deck and keep playing. That's not magic anymore, and it's a waste of everyone's time.
No. I think that there are a lot of people like that, but others are more for the big plays aspect of EDH so they would rather do something and then win after more awesome stuff happens.
Building silly decks for silly games.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
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WE DEMAND A SACRIFICE
Night Shift
Karrthus, Tyrant of Dragons
Some of you may think that you have made great mistakes in your lives, and perhaps you have. But let me ask you this.... did you ever play strip poker with two fat chicks and win?
Cockatrice name: Ninja Nate
Does that mean I'm constantly attacking unarmed players and blowing up Karoo lands with Strip Mines? No. Partly because this is not playing for the win. P*ssing people off will generally get you killed, as will leaving yourself defenseless by attacking a lot and leaving yourself without Strip Mines when people then play Maze of Iths and such.
BUT, there is probably part of this play style that is also doing something along the lines of "being nice." I'd rather see one of my mana-screwed opponents get back into the game and play some Magic rather than further mana screwing them by blowing up what lands they do have. So that might not be an example of "playing to win." But generally I do. If I have a game-winning Insurrection/Goblin Bombardment play or something, I take it. Then again, if I draw Tooth and Nail, I might just go get Primeval Titan and Avenger of Zendikar instead of a game-winning combo, especially if the game is early on and other players haven't done much yet.
All in all, interesting question!
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
I'd rather play an hour long game where everyone gets to play all their big, splashy cards and everyone interacts, plays politics, etc, than four fifteen minute games where someone tutors up their combo and wins on turn 5.
That's just me, though.
Before you ask, yeah, I don't hate combos because they beat me all the time. They get disrupted usually, so it turns into a half hour long game where everyone is rushing because one person made himself a target and got knocked out after 10 minutes, and everyone else feels rude playing while he's siting there with nothing to do.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I agree with most of what you said here. It infuriates me when someone says "I could have won at such and such a time, if only I had done this" It's total BS because I'm sure at lease one person had something to stop whatever it is you are convinced would have won you the game.
/rant
Well yeah, it's fine to not go for the kill but you don't get to b*tch about it later! lol. I do hate when I later realize that I could've gotten the kill and didn't see it though. And usually someone else does it the next turn with a mono-green deck, so I know no one had an answer for mine! Ugh. But these are embarrassing moments that I don't even tell people about, much less b*tch about
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
I guess a crappy analogy is that some Commander players like to finish their opponents off with 'epic', spectacular plays after long struggles, kind of like pro wrestlers. I am more like Jason Bourne. If I win because I stabbed a guy with a pen or choked him with a towel, well, it got the job done even if it isn't flashy.
I like the competition to be based around the actual gameplay instead of a race to degeneracy in deck construction and capital spent on card acquisition. This is why I think that if you're making 'antisocial' plays, the problem is in deck construction and not during play. Unless you're just straight-out griefing, which almost always implicates exceptionally poor play.
Commander is a game where you play to beat your opponents, but with agreed-upon terms prior to the engagement. It's a collaborative experience, but I also still like to be playing Magic, so in the game, I always try to win as hard as I can. I hope that makes sense.
Well, I think the analogy would be that killing someone in a boring way is like shooting them with a gun point blank when they're defenseless. This, I'll do, but it doesn't make me as happy as a good pen-stab to the throat (deal 1 to you with Chandra, which kills you) or even a big Die Hard style explosion (Consume Spirit for 35? OK... Wild Ricochet, kill both opponents on the spot). Not sure why both examples had to be red...
But yeah. I'll definitely kill someone if the opportunity is there, interesting kill or not. To not do so feels more like you're trying to manufacture a good game out of a bad one. It's contrived. But I'd much rather something happen that is either big and flashy, or probably even better, something very small, creative and synergistic but not an obvious combo.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
... I should probably fix that.
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The long answer is " I go for the win every time I play because I'm NOT playing the game for second place. I'm playing to win"
I run most of the cards because they make my deck good, and fun, but sometimes, you stumble upon some rediculous draws that make game states unfun. Cauldron is a mid-game win-con by itself as nobody wants to play spells and return lands to their hands. Burgeoning is awesome ramp, but you can run out of gas fast unless you have some draw. That is the case with those three cards.
I run Quicksilver Amulet because I can play any creature spell for 4. It that Betrays is in a MB sac deck that basically leaves the board empty of creatures except my own. If I had the possibility to play some other big beatstick on turn 3, I'd drop it, but that card just says I win on turn three and I get all of your stuff. Mid-late game its great to have.