This term seems to have had a hard time making a crossover to the lexicon of EDH. In the other formats, "milling" describes systematically removing your opponent's library to either.
A) Deprive them of their resources
B) Deck them out
In EDH this "milliing" intends to achieve something quite different. The term seems to me to represent a means, not an end. In EDH, the end is very often to move the contents of various libraries into GYs for the purpose of utilizing those resources with spells and abilites.
Still, I hear many claims that "milling" is not an effective game plan in EDH. I will always respond to this with "Tell that to Hermit Druid, Geth, Wrexy, and Lord of Extinction" - and that's just a very small sampling of the cards that can effectively exploit GYs. (For a more complete list, see my Mimeoplasm link in sig and check the "Mill Variant" spoiler).
My retort is almost always met with someone saying, "well, that's not exactly milling then, that's something different".
If the term milling has forever been coined as an "end" rather than a "means" in the Magic lexicon, used only to describe Legacy decks that venture to win by stripping an opponet's library clean, then how are we ever going to clear this up? Do we need a new term to describe it? Can the term take on a new dimension when talking about EDH?
My interest here is not to necessarily clear up discrepancy in verbiage, but to get players to stop saying that "mill isn't very good in EDH" when I have played 2 milling versions of BUG, (one that mills myself and one that mills opponents), and have won a ton of games. with them.
As far as I'm aware, milling in edh is no differnt than milling anywhere else in magic. The problem with milling as a stratagy in edh is that a lot of decks have ways of utilizing their graveyard. Cards in the yard are often as good as cards in hand.
There is the connotation dredging has (self-milling for benefit) but that usage is still associated pretty tightly with the keyword. It really just sounds like they were being defensive when you clarified your intent. Milling is milling no matter whose deck.
milling is just a term used to describe the act of putting a card from the top of a library into its corresponding graveyard. There really isn't anything else too it. As a strategy your aim is to "mill your opponent" but thats just short hand for saying... "i milled all of his cards"
Even though he's a shoddy Commander who will never win via general damage, I believe Szadek, Lord of Secrets would like to have a word with you concerning milling.
Even though he's a shoddy Commander who will never win via general damage, I believe Szadek, Lord of Secrets would like to have a word with you concerning milling.
lol. Szadek is the only big miller spell that never made it into my deck, so I'm sure he probably would like to have a word with me. I'm sure he would ask, "How come you are the only EDH player on MTGS with a dedicated mill deck and I'M NOT IN IT!?!?"
As a strategy your aim is to "mill your opponent" but thats just short hand for saying... "i milled all of his cards"
Exactly. If I mill my opponents with the intent to exploit their resources and beat them over the head with their own cards, and then I tell someone "it's a milling deck", it's assumed that my strategy is to "mill all of their cards". This is where all the confusion comes in. Saying "I have a deck that mills so as to utilize my opponet's resources with spells and abilites" is a mouth-full. I want to be able to say, "I mill", and not have it assumed I aim to "mill someone out", because in EDH this approach is basically stupid. (Although, I do pack a Tunnel Vision and some bottom decking - mwahahaha)
hold on, mill is viable in edh
and if you dont believe me, go take a look at Blackjacks Orzhov Mafia deck........
BUT, mill should be an alt. win imho.......and i love mill as a player.
And the confusion continues. Are you saying mill is viable as in "I stripped your library clean and now you can't draw so you lose". Or are you saying mill is viable as, "I nailed you with some mill spells to make your graveyard juicy and now I am going to Necromancy your Felidar Soverign and use Memory Plunder to cast Final Fortune FTW?"
And the confusion continues. Are you saying mill is viable as in "I stripped your library clean and now you can't draw so you lose". Or are you saying mill is viable as, "I nailed you with some mill spells to make your graveyard juicy and now I am going to Necromancy your Felidar Soverign and use Memory Plunder to cast Final Fortune FTW?"
the first one in this case.
there, in my thoughts are two effective mill strategies in edh.
1. Tunnel Vision+ a card that puts a card on the bottom of an opponents library (Hinder)
Trying to win by decking your opponents in commander seems terrible in a world of Eldrazi.
Graveyard based decks have nothing to do with that though. If you have a lot spells that use graveyard recursion and the like getting cards into the graveyard is the equivalent of a normal deck drawing a bunch of cards.
Trying to win by decking your opponents in commander seems terrible in a world of Eldrazi.
Graveyard based decks have nothing to do with that though. If you have a lot spells that use graveyard recursion and the like getting cards into the graveyard is the equivalent of a normal deck drawing a bunch of cards.
you know, with the tunnel vision combo.......i can always run stifle or an effect like it.
This is the first time, since I touch Millstone back when i cracked a Fourth Edition Pack that I bought at a garage sale right around when I started playing (visions-tempest) that mill meant anything OTHER than eating away at peoples library.
Milling never denies anyone anything unless they built there deck to be 1/10 useful and you burnt the only working part of it away. Other wise they have the rest of the deck to use.
When you say mill people assume it's being used offensively, mostly because that's how it's used in every other format. The opening post states this, it's not really up for debate. The issue is that we absolutely do need a different term. Maybe we can borrow graveyard combo, as I wouldn't say my Dredge deck is a mill deck.
But yeah, unless you are actually attempting to deck someone (VoidHelm, Jace 2, whatever) you probably shouldn't say you have a mill deck.
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Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Deadguy Ale WB
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
This is the first time, since I touch Millstone back when i cracked a Fourth Edition Pack that I bought at a garage sale right around when I started playing (visions-tempest) that mill meant anything OTHER than eating away at peoples library.
Milling never denies anyone anything unless they built there deck to be 1/10 useful and you burnt the only working part of it away. Other wise they have the rest of the deck to use.
Exactly, which is why I propose that the term "mill" in EDH indicate something like these:
A) Milling yourself to set up a Living Death or Mimeoplasm combo while simultaneously playing dredge or reanimator or flashback
A card like Tunnel Vision is great in both approaches and can offer a combo wincon when paired with a tuck spell or ability. So even though Traumatize + Keening Stone might potentially "mill someone out", this combo is really more of an alt wincon. Their presence in the deck is primarily marked by their ability to fascilitate examples A & B.
This is what "Mill" means to me. I understand that EDH is a newer format and there are those Legacy players who might disagree about the definition, but I hope the times are a changin, because my playstyle needs a name dammit.
Edit: @ evilGOD - graveyard combo works I guess. Is that what I am describing then? Even though there are secondary deckout wincons laced throughout the build? It's hard to call it otherwise when one of my key spells is Mesmeric Orb.
A card like Tunnel Vision is great in both approaches and can offer a combo wincon when paired with a tuck spell or ability. So even though Traumatize + Keening Stone might potentially "mill someone out", this combo is really more of an alt wincon. Their presence in the deck is primarily marked by their ability to fascilitate examples A & B.
This is what "Mill" means to me. I understand that EDH is a newer format and there are those Legacy players who might disagree about the definition, but I hope the times are a changin, because my playstyle needs a name dammit.
Edit: @ evilGOD - graveyard combo works I guess. Is that what I am describing then? Even though their are secondary deckout wincons laced throughout the build? It's hard to call it otherwise when one of my key spells is Mesmeric Orb.
Mill has always been defined as decking your opponents. If you're so desperate to give your playstyle a name, just call it "self-milling", "self-milling combo", or "gy combo". If you give the term both the offensive and self-milling definition, wouldn't you just be keeping the status quo?
milling is just a term used to describe the act of putting a card from the top of a library into its corresponding graveyard. There really isn't anything else too it. As a strategy your aim is to "mill your opponent" but thats just short hand for saying... "i milled all of his cards"
Yeah, it doesn't matter who you are doing it to or what the purpose it.... If you are milling someone you are taking cards from the deck and putting them in the grave.
Mill has always been defined as decking your opponents. If you're so desperate to give your playstyle a name, just call it "self-milling", "self-milling combo", or "gy combo". If you give the term both the offensive and self-milling definition, wouldn't you just be keeping the status quo?
Odd. For me in the 17 years I have been playing it's always just been "deck to grave" and the reason wasn't part of the term "Mill."
Mill as a strategy refers to trying to deck your opponent by putting all the cards into your opponents graveyard or hand. Mill as an action refers to putting cards from a player's library into their graveyard. So you can incorporate mill into your strategy through say self mill or milling to use your opponent's graveyard, but I wouldn't call a deck a mill deck unless your main plan is to deck your opponent.
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
I've updated the "Mill" entry under "Play Styles" in my guide. Is this fairly acceptable?
Mill - Filling your deck with cards like Traumatize and Tome Scour in order to slowly mill an opponent over the course of a game can work, but is generally NOT an effective strategy in EDH. This is because, not only is it tougher to mill a 99 card deck than a 60, not to mention having to mill multiple 99 card decks, but there are also lots of Eldrazi creatures and other spells commonly played in edh that instantly stops your mill strategy. There are, however, LOTS of combos used in EDH that instantly mill one or more opponents, and a couple of commanders that can easily mill an opponent if they have enough mana available. So, if you want to win by milling your opponent, it's best to do it in one or two shots rather than a few cards at a time over the whole game. A combo that does this would be Spin into Myth or Hinder coupled with Tunnel Vision. Another would be Karmic Guide and Reveillark with Altar of Dementia. The commanders that can mill are Oona, Queen of the Fae, and Geth, Lord of the Vault. Big or Infinite mana combos with either of these commanders can mill out an opponent very quickly. Milling some cards from your own library or an opponents in order to stock the graveyards with cards you can use or to make creatures like Lord of Extinction more powerful can be useful at times too.
"Milling" has two meanings. One meaning is the act of putting cards directly from someone's library into their graveyard. The other meaning is to win by doing so and depriving the opponent of a library; or running out of your own library due to excessive card draw.
I am kind of amazed at [...] the fact that somebody on this thread called Mind's Eye, Mirari's Wake, Decree of Pain, Desertion, AND Scroll Rack, all before they were officially spoiled. I will edit this post VERY shortly with the username of this user who deserves at least all of the cookies. Probably more cookies than that.
Tunnel Vision and Condemn best describes EDH milling playability in the format. Tome Scour isnt a very reliable mil card. But yes, "B" deck them out. :]
Round here we call those sort of decks "Grave eaters".
A mill deck mills them to nothing, a grave eater uses the graveyard.
Eater is probably a misleading term, but it's what we've stuck with
About the term-milling is putting cards directly into the grave. Whether it is good or not makes no difference.
Milling yourself as a strategy though, I call dredging, even if there are no cards with dredge in the rules text in my deck.
Milling the opponent to access their grave is probably reanimator.
About milling being bad if used on opponents- this is not always true. Decks that rely heavily on tutoring can be stifled or slowed by having their targets put in the graveyard. An example from 60-card land- the fourth Demonic Consultation you cast in a game is quite bad, you may not have access to all of the cards in your deck because all copies are exiled, and maybe only one copy left, which sets up the one mana you lose the game effect.
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A) Deprive them of their resources
B) Deck them out
In EDH this "milliing" intends to achieve something quite different. The term seems to me to represent a means, not an end. In EDH, the end is very often to move the contents of various libraries into GYs for the purpose of utilizing those resources with spells and abilites.
Still, I hear many claims that "milling" is not an effective game plan in EDH. I will always respond to this with "Tell that to Hermit Druid, Geth, Wrexy, and Lord of Extinction" - and that's just a very small sampling of the cards that can effectively exploit GYs. (For a more complete list, see my Mimeoplasm link in sig and check the "Mill Variant" spoiler).
My retort is almost always met with someone saying, "well, that's not exactly milling then, that's something different".
If the term milling has forever been coined as an "end" rather than a "means" in the Magic lexicon, used only to describe Legacy decks that venture to win by stripping an opponet's library clean, then how are we ever going to clear this up? Do we need a new term to describe it? Can the term take on a new dimension when talking about EDH?
My interest here is not to necessarily clear up discrepancy in verbiage, but to get players to stop saying that "mill isn't very good in EDH" when I have played 2 milling versions of BUG, (one that mills myself and one that mills opponents), and have won a ton of games. with them.
Am I missing something obvious here?
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
It means to deck your opponent
My EDH Runup
UTeferi and the 40 ThievesU
WDarien, King of KjeldorW(Primer in progress)
BGThe Walking Dead (Skullbriar)BG
WURClash of the Fomori (Ruhan)WUR
UBRSedris, King of GrixisUBR
WUBRGAll Your Slivers Are Belong to UsWUBRG
lol. Szadek is the only big miller spell that never made it into my deck, so I'm sure he probably would like to have a word with me. I'm sure he would ask, "How come you are the only EDH player on MTGS with a dedicated mill deck and I'M NOT IN IT!?!?"
Exactly. If I mill my opponents with the intent to exploit their resources and beat them over the head with their own cards, and then I tell someone "it's a milling deck", it's assumed that my strategy is to "mill all of their cards". This is where all the confusion comes in. Saying "I have a deck that mills so as to utilize my opponet's resources with spells and abilites" is a mouth-full. I want to be able to say, "I mill", and not have it assumed I aim to "mill someone out", because in EDH this approach is basically stupid. (Although, I do pack a Tunnel Vision and some bottom decking - mwahahaha)
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
and if you dont believe me, go take a look at Blackjacks Orzhov Mafia deck........
BUT, mill should be an alt. win imho.......and i love mill as a player.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyAnd the confusion continues. Are you saying mill is viable as in "I stripped your library clean and now you can't draw so you lose". Or are you saying mill is viable as, "I nailed you with some mill spells to make your graveyard juicy and now I am going to Necromancy your Felidar Soverign and use Memory Plunder to cast Final Fortune FTW?"
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
the first one in this case.
there, in my thoughts are two effective mill strategies in edh.
1. Tunnel Vision+ a card that puts a card on the bottom of an opponents library (Hinder)
2. Altar of Dementia+ Karmic Guide+ Reveillark.
Pretty much any other way would not be as consistent.
self-mill is an entirely different monster (look up an edh deck that abuses Hermit Druid, and you'll see my point)
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyGraveyard based decks have nothing to do with that though. If you have a lot spells that use graveyard recursion and the like getting cards into the graveyard is the equivalent of a normal deck drawing a bunch of cards.
you know, with the tunnel vision combo.......i can always run stifle or an effect like it.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyMilling never denies anyone anything unless they built there deck to be 1/10 useful and you burnt the only working part of it away. Other wise they have the rest of the deck to use.
But yeah, unless you are actually attempting to deck someone (VoidHelm, Jace 2, whatever) you probably shouldn't say you have a mill deck.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
Exactly, which is why I propose that the term "mill" in EDH indicate something like these:
A) Milling yourself to set up a Living Death or Mimeoplasm combo while simultaneously playing dredge or reanimator or flashback
B) Milling you opponent to reanimate and cast out of their GYs while simultaneously punishing them with Bloodchief Ascension, Vulturous Zombie or Guiltfeeder.
A card like Tunnel Vision is great in both approaches and can offer a combo wincon when paired with a tuck spell or ability. So even though Traumatize + Keening Stone might potentially "mill someone out", this combo is really more of an alt wincon. Their presence in the deck is primarily marked by their ability to fascilitate examples A & B.
This is what "Mill" means to me. I understand that EDH is a newer format and there are those Legacy players who might disagree about the definition, but I hope the times are a changin, because my playstyle needs a name dammit.
Edit: @ evilGOD - graveyard combo works I guess. Is that what I am describing then? Even though there are secondary deckout wincons laced throughout the build? It's hard to call it otherwise when one of my key spells is Mesmeric Orb.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
oh, just call it "bye bye decky"
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyOne-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Yeah, it doesn't matter who you are doing it to or what the purpose it.... If you are milling someone you are taking cards from the deck and putting them in the grave.
I thought that was pretty universal.
Odd. For me in the 17 years I have been playing it's always just been "deck to grave" and the reason wasn't part of the term "Mill."
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
You are right, apologies. I meant "mill deck", since we were talking about archetypes. "Mill" in itself just means "deck to grave".
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Mill - Filling your deck with cards like Traumatize and Tome Scour in order to slowly mill an opponent over the course of a game can work, but is generally NOT an effective strategy in EDH. This is because, not only is it tougher to mill a 99 card deck than a 60, not to mention having to mill multiple 99 card decks, but there are also lots of Eldrazi creatures and other spells commonly played in edh that instantly stops your mill strategy. There are, however, LOTS of combos used in EDH that instantly mill one or more opponents, and a couple of commanders that can easily mill an opponent if they have enough mana available. So, if you want to win by milling your opponent, it's best to do it in one or two shots rather than a few cards at a time over the whole game. A combo that does this would be Spin into Myth or Hinder coupled with Tunnel Vision. Another would be Karmic Guide and Reveillark with Altar of Dementia. The commanders that can mill are Oona, Queen of the Fae, and Geth, Lord of the Vault. Big or Infinite mana combos with either of these commanders can mill out an opponent very quickly. Milling some cards from your own library or an opponents in order to stock the graveyards with cards you can use or to make creatures like Lord of Extinction more powerful can be useful at times too.
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EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Commanders:
Basandra, Battle Seraph | Diaochan, Artful Beauty | Mayael the Anima | Nath of the Gilt Leaf | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Raksha Golden Cub | Rayne, Academy Chancellor | Roon of the Hidden Realm
A mill deck mills them to nothing, a grave eater uses the graveyard.
Eater is probably a misleading term, but it's what we've stuck with
Milling yourself as a strategy though, I call dredging, even if there are no cards with dredge in the rules text in my deck.
Milling the opponent to access their grave is probably reanimator.
About milling being bad if used on opponents- this is not always true. Decks that rely heavily on tutoring can be stifled or slowed by having their targets put in the graveyard. An example from 60-card land- the fourth Demonic Consultation you cast in a game is quite bad, you may not have access to all of the cards in your deck because all copies are exiled, and maybe only one copy left, which sets up the one mana you lose the game effect.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide