In general, do people honestly think Upheaval is a worse card than most global destruction?
I just recently listened to an episode of Commandercast and had to agree with the concept that it seems sort of dumb. Yeah, Upheaval does give way to the caster to win, but it doesn't just reset the game back to zero for everyone. So seemingly, it's ok to delay the game to gain advantage but it's not fair to reset the game to win? Yet doesn't everyone who supports LD and Mass destruction say that it's a winning strategy that is "just another part of the game"?
I don't think the "reset factor" is a very good reason at all to cite for its banning. So many other cards, from Decree of Annihilation to Worldpurge to Obliterate, that accomplish the same task with comparable or even greater effectiveness remain unbanned. Can it be annoying? Sure, but that's really beside the point.
If it's going to be banned, power level seems the most likely culprit -- even if its caster doesn't float mana for some huge bomb and win the game, he or she can simply float mana and replay all the mana-producing artifacts/creatures and have an overwhelming tempo advantage. The only setup it requires is ramping up mana to begin with. I'd shove it in my blue deck in a heartbeat, for what that's worth.
All qualms aside, however, I don't think it should be banned. It's very good, the best global reset IMO, but it's nothing we can't handle.
Yeah, I mean, I'd run it in my sharuum just because T6 being able to bounce everything, then play out all my mana ramp artifacts is ridonkulous. I mean, by that time I either have mana crypt, sol ring, mana vault, basalt/grim, key, or some other stupid mana up, and I should be able to float like 5 mana + dropping a land + tapping any of those again = huge tempo advantage.
I can see why its banned.
I mean, yeah obliterate allows you to float too, but the "amount it puts you closer to winning" is hugely different, since you lose all your ramp as opposed to recasting it, and 2/3 turns faster than your foes at that.
Although an unban would be fun.
I never got to play any of the good stuff like tolarian academy or channel either
Running Hurkyl's Recall//Rebuild does roughly the same thing. It's used in Vintage decks to both accelerate yourself or make opponents wish they hadnt timetwistered unprotected (among other uses)
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
If it's banned for power level, I understand that, but I wish it weren't.
I'd much rather see someone Upheaval and win rather than someone Decree and we get to play draw-go. That's all up the play styles of playgroups, but I wish people wouldn't play stupid.
If it's banned for power level, I understand that, but I wish it weren't.
I'd much rather see someone Upheaval and win rather than someone Decree and we get to play draw-go. That's all up the play styles of playgroups, but I wish people wouldn't play stupid.
This is exactly how I feel. I don't care about someone winning and or about me losing as long as I and everyone else enjoy getting there. I don't think that something should be banned because it lets someone "win" too easily if we are going to allow cards which specifically can and or are used more to stall/reset with no clear win in sight.
I never got to play any of the good stuff like tolarian academy or channel either
That's ok, channel was only good with Emrakul anyway.
Anyway, I think upheaval deserves to be banned with no doubt. Not only is it annoying, but it's also fairly easy to set up a turn where you cast upheaval, float mana with your mana rocks, and then play your mana rocks again with the mana floating.
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The difference between this and for example Decree, Jokulhaups, Obliterate etc. is that this one doesn't require setup at all. Does anyone disagree that this would be an auto-include in all decks that can cast it? And, every time this card would be played, the only way to stop it would be countermagic? In that case, it should still be banned.
IMO it's an useless ban, since there are a lot of cards around used for almost the same scope that are unbanned, Upheaval is just the best one. You can use it to Hurkyll's Recall the table, to Evacuation it, or almost to Armageddon it. I would love to be able to play this again, probably I'll rebuild my old Jhoira deck...
Yes, but having all three (Sunder not Armegeddon) of those effects on a single card is terribly powerful and it's "and" not "or" with those effects. It's really easy to play it with Mana floating and replay all the stuff in your hand while your opponents CANNOT replay any their permanents. It's a stupid card in a format that can generate so much mana... If it cost 10 that would help put it out of range, but 6 is too cheap.
Yes, but having all three (Sunder not Armegeddon) of those effects on a single card is terribly powerful and it's "and" not "or" with those effects. It's really easy to play it with Mana floating and replay all the stuff in your hand while your opponents CANNOT replay any their permanents. It's a stupid card in a format that can generate so much mana... If it cost 10 that would help put it out of range, but 6 is too cheap.
So... it's ok to float mana and do a mass destruction for a win but not to float mana and do something like Upheaval?
So... it's ok to float mana and do a mass destruction for a win but not to float mana and do something like Upheaval?
My personal opinion on both is, "Ugh, that's not fun." But, there are two HUGE huge differences between Jokulhaups and Upheaval. First, Red and Blue. That isn't that big of a deal, but worth noting. Second, when you have 5-6 floating mana and all your mana rocks in hand you are in a very different position that 5-6 floating mana with all your stuff in the bin. With Upheaval you can actually get MORE mana by replaying your Vault, Ring, and Monoliths while the rest of the table is left barren. Jokulhaups is a balanced sweeper and Upheaval is not.
Do I believe in banning cards like mass destruction? No. Do I think unbanning Upheaval would make the format less fun or more fun? So so much less. There are cards that could be unbanned and it wouldn't make a huge impact, but Upheaval is not one of those.
Sunder doesn't get rid of artifact mana. Yes, if your opponents don't run it, it'll set you forward. Upheaval, on the other hand, sets you forward no matter what your opponents have.
Only things that come close are red's boardwipes: Obliterate, Decree of Annihilation. These both cost more mana than Upheaval, are in a color that has less ability to tutor for them, are in a colour that doesn't usually ramp as hard, and they also require you to have pretty much full hand of ramp to get ahead in tempo. Note that red has no access to card advantage tools, and you can see that Upheaval is often going to be much more powerful play than Obliterate.
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So... it's ok to float mana and do a mass destruction for a win but not to float mana and do something like Upheaval?
I think you'll agree there's a critical difference between MD + floating mana and Upheaval + floating mana. You get to keep your things and cast them back into play.
I have my doubts if it should be banned but as arguably the best and most abusable board cleaner, I do think the banning makes sense. I mean, you get to clean the board to your heat's content, you just don't get to do it so efficiently.
I think you'll agree there's a critical difference between MD + floating mana and Upheaval + floating mana. You get to keep your things and cast them back into play.
I have my doubts if it should be banned but as arguably the best and most abusable board cleaner, I do think the banning makes sense. I mean, you get to clean the board to your heat's content, you just don't get to do it so efficiently.
No, I think in a format where Combo is as rampant as herpes in junior high, it isn't that big of an issue. Then again, I'm personally getting sick of games where at least 1 players goal is to drag the game out for as long as possible.
No, I think in a format where Combo is as rampant as herpes in junior high, it isn't that big of an issue. Then again, I'm personally getting sick of games where at least 1 players goal is to drag the game out for as long as possible.
No, I think in a format where Combo is as rampant as herpes in junior high, it isn't that big of an issue. Then again, I'm personally getting sick of games where at least 1 players goal is to drag the game out for as long as possible.
I'm confident that the unbanning of upheaval will help combo players more than hinder them. Hell, it will start a bunch of combos of it's own.
Upheaval is so insanely powerful. It's on the banned list where it belongs. Complete reset button for everyone but you... who has the ability to float a ton of mana into it and rebuild after resolution. Everybody else starts at square 1. But you'll start with a land, a threat and a few mana producing artifacts before you pass your turn. The card is bonkers, and unfair in this format.
Part of me wants to say unban this card. But then then other half tells me, "Why should blue be even more oppressive in this format than it already is?"
Another big thing with Upheaval is that if you have a Reliquary Tower in play while your opponents don't, you can replay your tower and keep all the bounced cards. Your opponents are very likely to have to discard, on the other hand.
I'm kinda in the same boat as Surging Chaos on this one, I'm on the fence about this card being too good, it gives Blue a card that basically says "I win" for 6 mana but it doesn't actually say "I win" like many other 6cc blue spells (Mind Over Matter I'm looking at you).
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On Mono Black in Commander:
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
It's a one card win whose only viable response is countermagic. It would hardly be unique if it were unbanned, but it would be oppressive.
Overpowered for its cost, certainly. The next time they printed something like this it was Worldpurge, which would've been playable if it didn't include that "empty your mana pool" clause.
Ultimately it's another undercosted, moderately abusive card.
I'm kinda in the same boat as Surging Chaos on this one, I'm on the fence about this card being too good, it gives Blue a card that basically says "I win" for 6 mana but it doesn't actually say "I win" like many other 6cc blue spells (Mind Over Matter I'm looking at you).
Except mind over matter requires another effect that is tap: draw 1+ cards. All upheaval needs is.. well ANY kind of board presence. Both are ridiculously strong though
Except mind over matter requires another effect that is tap: draw 1+ cards. All upheaval needs is.. well ANY kind of board presence. Both are ridiculously strong though
Have you ever seen MoM been played fairly? Chances are when it hits the board you're winning the game right then and there. But we're here to discuss Upheaval, and not any board presence will do, when you cast it, your board position must be in a state such that you'll almost win the game on the spot or be so far ahead that it doesn't matter. So in essence it is a sort of "combo" card, the cards that "combo" with it are broader than MoM but you can't cast it on any old board position. But yes I agree, both are incredibly strong cards and Upheaval seems to be in the grey area between incredibly powerful and brokenly powerful, its a very powerful effect but there are similar effects that are legal and almost as powerful but the fact that its blue doesn't really help its case. Maybe some play groups could test it out as a trial unban to see if it is safe to unban.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
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I just recently listened to an episode of Commandercast and had to agree with the concept that it seems sort of dumb. Yeah, Upheaval does give way to the caster to win, but it doesn't just reset the game back to zero for everyone. So seemingly, it's ok to delay the game to gain advantage but it's not fair to reset the game to win? Yet doesn't everyone who supports LD and Mass destruction say that it's a winning strategy that is "just another part of the game"?
If it's going to be banned, power level seems the most likely culprit -- even if its caster doesn't float mana for some huge bomb and win the game, he or she can simply float mana and replay all the mana-producing artifacts/creatures and have an overwhelming tempo advantage. The only setup it requires is ramping up mana to begin with. I'd shove it in my blue deck in a heartbeat, for what that's worth.
All qualms aside, however, I don't think it should be banned. It's very good, the best global reset IMO, but it's nothing we can't handle.
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I can see why its banned.
I mean, yeah obliterate allows you to float too, but the "amount it puts you closer to winning" is hugely different, since you lose all your ramp as opposed to recasting it, and 2/3 turns faster than your foes at that.
Although an unban would be fun.
I never got to play any of the good stuff like tolarian academy or channel either
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I'd much rather see someone Upheaval and win rather than someone Decree and we get to play draw-go. That's all up the play styles of playgroups, but I wish people wouldn't play stupid.
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This is exactly how I feel. I don't care about someone winning and or about me losing as long as I and everyone else enjoy getting there. I don't think that something should be banned because it lets someone "win" too easily if we are going to allow cards which specifically can and or are used more to stall/reset with no clear win in sight.
That's ok, channel was only good with Emrakul anyway.
Anyway, I think upheaval deserves to be banned with no doubt. Not only is it annoying, but it's also fairly easy to set up a turn where you cast upheaval, float mana with your mana rocks, and then play your mana rocks again with the mana floating.
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Yes, but having all three (Sunder not Armegeddon) of those effects on a single card is terribly powerful and it's "and" not "or" with those effects. It's really easy to play it with Mana floating and replay all the stuff in your hand while your opponents CANNOT replay any their permanents. It's a stupid card in a format that can generate so much mana... If it cost 10 that would help put it out of range, but 6 is too cheap.
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So... it's ok to float mana and do a mass destruction for a win but not to float mana and do something like Upheaval?
My personal opinion on both is, "Ugh, that's not fun." But, there are two HUGE huge differences between Jokulhaups and Upheaval. First, Red and Blue. That isn't that big of a deal, but worth noting. Second, when you have 5-6 floating mana and all your mana rocks in hand you are in a very different position that 5-6 floating mana with all your stuff in the bin. With Upheaval you can actually get MORE mana by replaying your Vault, Ring, and Monoliths while the rest of the table is left barren. Jokulhaups is a balanced sweeper and Upheaval is not.
Do I believe in banning cards like mass destruction? No. Do I think unbanning Upheaval would make the format less fun or more fun? So so much less. There are cards that could be unbanned and it wouldn't make a huge impact, but Upheaval is not one of those.
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Only things that come close are red's boardwipes: Obliterate, Decree of Annihilation. These both cost more mana than Upheaval, are in a color that has less ability to tutor for them, are in a colour that doesn't usually ramp as hard, and they also require you to have pretty much full hand of ramp to get ahead in tempo. Note that red has no access to card advantage tools, and you can see that Upheaval is often going to be much more powerful play than Obliterate.
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I think you'll agree there's a critical difference between MD + floating mana and Upheaval + floating mana. You get to keep your things and cast them back into play.
I have my doubts if it should be banned but as arguably the best and most abusable board cleaner, I do think the banning makes sense. I mean, you get to clean the board to your heat's content, you just don't get to do it so efficiently.
Perhaps WoTC needs to start printing counter spells in different colors =/
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No, I think in a format where Combo is as rampant as herpes in junior high, it isn't that big of an issue. Then again, I'm personally getting sick of games where at least 1 players goal is to drag the game out for as long as possible.
where the hell did you go to junior high?
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lol, i'm just going off of the news I keep reading.
I'm confident that the unbanning of upheaval will help combo players more than hinder them. Hell, it will start a bunch of combos of it's own.
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Overpowered for its cost, certainly. The next time they printed something like this it was Worldpurge, which would've been playable if it didn't include that "empty your mana pool" clause.
Ultimately it's another undercosted, moderately abusive card.
Except mind over matter requires another effect that is tap: draw 1+ cards. All upheaval needs is.. well ANY kind of board presence. Both are ridiculously strong though
Have you ever seen MoM been played fairly? Chances are when it hits the board you're winning the game right then and there. But we're here to discuss Upheaval, and not any board presence will do, when you cast it, your board position must be in a state such that you'll almost win the game on the spot or be so far ahead that it doesn't matter. So in essence it is a sort of "combo" card, the cards that "combo" with it are broader than MoM but you can't cast it on any old board position. But yes I agree, both are incredibly strong cards and Upheaval seems to be in the grey area between incredibly powerful and brokenly powerful, its a very powerful effect but there are similar effects that are legal and almost as powerful but the fact that its blue doesn't really help its case. Maybe some play groups could test it out as a trial unban to see if it is safe to unban.