How many people own Mana Drain and Imperial Seal and Tabernacle? For everyone to have access to those cards and create the level playing field that you keep talking about, 99% of people would have to proxy.
Except most people just don't proxy those cards and get stomped by people who do, and who seem to think they are leveling the playing field by doing so.
People that proxy those cards don't get to participate here. Once I see those cards are proxied I ignore their turns and plays.
I don't mind proxies. I think it's a bit silly if someone is trying to proxy every power card they couldn't afford just to get a leg up, but I can definitely understand the mentality of not wanting the people with the fattest wallets to win most often just because. Usually, when I see people make proxies, the cards they have proxied aren't money cards--they are cards they simply don't have.
When I made my first edh deck irl(Wort, the Raidmother), I had 25 proxies(most cost less than Eternal Witness.) because I heard the local group was pretty forgiving of that. In the coming weeks, I got it down to 13, then 6, and if I made the deck now, I'd have only two(Cradle and Taiga).
How many people own Mana Drain and Imperial Seal and Tabernacle? For everyone to have access to those cards and create the level playing field that you keep talking about, 99% of people would have to proxy.
Except most people just don't proxy those cards and get stomped by people who do, and who seem to think they are leveling the playing field by doing so.
Raises Hand. I'm also a college student but I work 2 jobs so that helps :). I Actually don't own a tabernacle YET. But I have everything else you could imagine (Imperial Recruiter, Library of Alexandria, Mishra's Workshop, Grim Tutor, Duals, Everything is in Beta too because I hate white boarders)
Raises Hand. I'm also a college student but I work 2 jobs so that helps :). I Actually don't own a tabernacle YET. But I have everything else you could imagine (Imperial Recruiter, Library of Alexandria, Mishra's Workshop, Grim Tutor, Duals, Everything is in Beta too because I hate white boarders)
While I have a good job, I can't bring myself to get Beta Duals. That's where I draw the line. Not dropping $300+ per card. I settle for FBB German to get rid of the white border.
So, instead of everybody proxying money cards to "even the playing field," why not convince everyone to a) only use cards they own and b) only use cards that everyone in the group has or can get pretty easily. Level field, and encourages participants to get better stuff and "move up" together. Deckbuild as a team, play as rivals. Eventually everyone will get close to the "topped out" version of their deck, at which point the guy with the Imperial Seal can use it again as a piece of "super secret tech" as it were.
This is pretty much how it works with the people I play with. We all have good jobs, and can eventually acquire whatever we want. I realize we're lucky in that respect. One guy shows up with his fancy new Grim Tutor, we all trade, sell, and save up for one of our own (or an equally awesome card). Someone got a Korean Natural Order--I one-upped him by getting a Beta Force Field. That's how it works. A little competition to keep us on our toes.
My view on proxies are only for testing purposes, but now with Cockatrice. Proxies are completely unnecessary.
Yeah this is true, it is kinda of annoying. Personally I try and mirror my RL cards so if I make a deck i like I can make it irl. and I use cockatrice for testing cards I may want to buy rather then RL proxies.
I was the only person in my group to use proxies.....I stopped.
If you don't have a card you want, just find a substitute. Would Gaea's Cradle be fantastic for my card? Yes. Do I care enough to spend at least $25 on it? Nope.
I kinda look down upon people with real or proxied Mana Drains...spending that much on one card is ridiculous, but if you want a card that awesome...you should buy it. My solution: Overlook the card.
Ok so the main two points i see coming up against proxying are
1) If i have to pay for my cards, you should have to pay for yours.
My response to that is that you do not have to pay for your cards, you too have the option to proxy, what you have is a desire to play with the real cards, not a need.
2) Magic costs money
My response is that it doesnt have to cost money, again you too have the option to proxy, you choose not to because again, you want to play with real cards.
I don't enjoy proxies myself. Part of what I like about magic is the artwork on the cards and the home made jobs I've seen mostly suck. I also think that if you're proxying expensive cards and everyone else in your group isn't then it isn't a good idea. I know people that proxy and people that can't stand proxies. For myself I don't like proxies and if I can't afford a card I just don't play it.
I'm sorry I'm not going to read every post in this thread. I just want to point out how hilarious it is that this topic was started yesterday and is already at 8 pages of responses. This is such a hot topic among magic players though so I can understand why, but I believe there was already a huge thread about it and it was closed due to heated debates. Old and Dead Thread
I think someone on the first page summed up proxies for casual play really well though.
Make your deck better and adapt as you have access to proxies as well. Making a dumb rule like "no proxies at this table" encourages the guy with the most money in his pockets to jump all over people with his payroll.
Of course, you should always inform any new opponents that you play with proxies before you start a game with them so they don't potentially blow up about it. If you'd like this demonstrated visually then check out this video I found.
(SKIP to 6:25): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgxQ7vSvC9Q
I got a laugh or two out of the scene when things went bad. I think they could have overreacted a bit more though.
Maybe a big reason I am so "anti-proxy" is because I played competitively for so long. In the real game, you need real cards. Period. So you trade or pay up. And you get used to it. Even back in the day, before playtesting via MWS or Cockatrice, most people would just get the real card since they were already pretty sure they were going to use it anyway. Testing is more for numbers and formality.
So it just depends on where you come from I suppose. I've been conditioned to acquire and use real cards for tournaments. It's a hard mindset to break--I can't stand the fakeness of proxies, and I love the feeling of "finally getting that piece of awesome for the deck." Maybe it's supposed to be that way. Maybe proxies cheapen the game in more ways than one.
But for people who've never played at even an FNM, they don't care. It's never mattered. They just want to play. And they get used to it. And then they come down to local shops after hearing about EDH, thinking it's okay to have 75%+ proxies for their "Sharuum Deck," and they butt heads with those of us who use real cards. My Thrun Voltron still isn't quite complete. Need a Wasteland, Gaea's Cradle, and Sol Ring to "complete it." But I'm not proxying. Those spots are occupied by Forests until I get the additional copies. I won't borrow from other decks, either. Mostly because of laziness.
Overall, I dislike proxies. One or two are okay if you announce well beforehand that you're using them. Sure. But they still take away what I consider to be a key aspect of the game--trading and acquiring real cards. And a good number of the people who I've met who abuse them have a gross sense of entitlement in general, not just MtG. Not the most amicable of playmates anyway.
You miss the point where Magic is a Collectible Card Game.
Except once again it is you who are making it a collectible card game...it is not a collectible card game to the pros out there for instance, all you can really say about mtg is that it is a game, trying to add a purpose to it is only going to be subjective, and subjective arguments are just sooo easy to pick apart
Just saying this and its my opion on proxies for me, but in this economy proxies feel like stealing if we want wizards to keep making a great product then keep buying it otherwise it will fade away. Just my two cents.
- I dislike proxies.
- There are a lot of cards in magic - using the "best" one is not always an option; but there are plenty of substitutes.
- For a casual playgroup that doesn't know every card by heart - proxies make it harder to play the game than cards that "are in possession" (rules text, FAQ).
- Proxies allow one to play much different cards than they would normally play/have access too. This isn't "bad" but it isn't great either.
Buying cards that are worth 100$+ dollar doesn't help wizards at all. If anything it stops their development, because the 100$ isn't spend on new magic material. The actual stuff where wizards profit from.
yep, secondary market doesn't do anything for wizards. So buying stuff for EDH doesn't do anything unless you're buying packs trying to find a consecrated sphinx or whatever (just got mine today! prepare to feel my wrath, world!) which is a pretty terrible way to find anything. If you want to help wizards, do more drafts and save your money when it comes to EDH.
Buying cards that are worth 100$+ dollar doesn't help wizards at all. If anything it stops their development, because the 100$ isn't spend on new magic material. The actual stuff where wizards profit from.
This is not entirely true. Here is an argument for the secondary market being, at least tertiarily, beneficial for WotC:
The Premises:
Wizards sells Magic cards and earns a bulk of their profits from selling sealed product. Once the product is bought by distributers WotC never sees another cent from that particular product. The cards within are parted out or collected by various players and stores. Those stores sell some of the opened product as singles (which WotC doesn't receive money for). Players and collectors buy the parted out singles from various stores.
The Analyses:
Now since you seem to have no problem with proxying no mater the circumstances then we can take this argument to the logical extreme. Let's say proxying becomes vary popular and more and more people begin to proxy cards rather than buy singles from their LGS or an online retailer. Now we run into this problem: stores start earning less profit which creates increasing difficult for them when it comes to buying sealed product from their distributer. The distributers will, in turn, not be able to buy as much sealed product from WotC which cuts into their profits.
Conclusion:
It may not be easy to measure (it may be impossible to measure) but someone proxying instead of buying a card does have an impact on WotC as a company even if it is an extremely slight effect (which stacks for the number of people who engage in the practice).
To clarify though I am not arguing against all proxying, I just wanted to make the point that it does have at least a theoretical effect on WotC and proxying rarely helps them as a company. That is one of the reasons I like buying my cards rather than proxying because it sends the message to WotC (even if that message is indirect) that I like their game enough to participate in the industry which they have set up.
actually its not a slippery slope, but its still pretty bad logic...
This is fact... Period...
1) Proxies do nothing to hurt the game, unless large amounts of people engage in excessive amounts of proxying, which all of you know will not happen.
Except you keep arguing that proxies level the playing field because everyone has access to them. For that to be true, everyone will have to proxy.
Just because everyone has acsses to proxys doesn't not mean they will use them. There will still be people who buy the real thing. The majority of the people I know that use proxies buy the real thing eventually, including me. But even if they choose not to there will still be individuals, like me, that will buy the real card.
- I dislike proxies.
- There are a lot of cards in magic - using the "best" one is not always an option; but there are plenty of substitutes.
- I dislike spending a ton of money all at once on $300 cards.
- No there are not. At least not for people like me, and most people that I know.... We enjoy playing optimal decks. You may enjoy creativity. fine. Me and my folks mostly enjoy hasve a well oiled machine. Aint nothing wrong with either, but proxies are not the problem...
Except once again it is you who are making it a collectible card game...it is not a collectible card game to the pros out there for instance, all you can really say about mtg is that it is a game, trying to add a purpose to it is only going to be subjective, and subjective arguments are just sooo easy to pick apart
No, it is a trading card game. That's not subjective. That's what it says on the Wizards site, because that's what it is. People may play it professionally, but it's still a tcg. There are professional football players, and yet it's still a sport right?
And I'm sure the pros have collected and traded many cards over the years, so unless you're implying that they only buy cards for the decks they're going to run in a tourney, then sell them to someone else, then it's still a tcg/ccg.
That's what I have an issue with. The fact that people feel entitled to having these cards. If you want the card then get it. If you can't afford it now, then save for it. If you don't want to save for it then it just can't be that important to you.
Except once again it is you who are making it a collectible card game...it is not a collectible card game to the pros out there for instance, all you can really say about mtg is that it is a game, trying to add a purpose to it is only going to be subjective, and subjective arguments are just sooo easy to pick apart
Actually it is a collectible card game whether you like it or not. Magic is a trading card game. To one extent or another every trading card game is collectible. Magic has been around so long that it is collectible. If you don't have money to buy cards then you clearly can't afford your hobby. Collect rocks then please. The only exceptions I have are cards you own in other decks or that you own but are somewhere else(another deck or you are getting them painted.)
Yes this is a casual game. That doesn't mean that the guy that bought his deck should sit next to a guy with an all proxy deck and expect a fulfilling game. And the amount of money you spend does not impact the amount of games you win. Sure if you play blue and dump all your money into making a lock/ control deck, then that is kind of lame. What deck really really needs a wasteland? There are so many options to choose from to replace that card.
I have many different decks, and I play with a deck according to my play groups means. If they aren't very rich, and don't have the means to get many cards I have a few fun decks. You guys think that the guy with all the money is being a jerk and making the best deck and gets his jollies over rolling over the poor guy. No, That is not true. Those are the guys that you should be not playing with to insure a healthy play group.
I find nothing wrong with proxies if it's used for a really expensive mana base or proxying a new card to see if it would work well in the deck. However, I will always kill the 100% proxy player first because all they are doing is printing out a deck list without any thought. To me, the biggest part of this game is finding the cards, building a deck, tweaking it, and finding new stuff to add to a deck. If you proxy the whole deck what's the point?
I find nothing wrong with proxies if it's used for a really expensive mana base
This I have a problem with. There are so many dual lands out there that there is no good reason that you HAVE to use original duals. It affects you in no way to use the other lands out there 99% of the time. If you are playing for that one percent then you are just proving the point that people who proxy cards they don't have are self righteous and full of themselves and cut throat.
I only play on MTGO at this point, so I don't have to deal with proxies. If I want a card, I have to go get it; if it costs more in tix or trade than I am willilng to pay, my deck goes without. That has kept me from picking up cards like Gaea's Cradle, Arcbound Ravager and Goblin Piledriver, because I can't justify to myself paying the equivalent of $10-$20 for a digital item that I will never physically possess.
However, when I played paper Magic, I had no issue with proxies. My roommate in college had full P9 and every other power card in existence, and as I only owned 4 of the P9 (plus a Library of Alexandria), the only way I could compete at T1 with him was to proxy certain cards that I didn't own. He didn't mind, because we played competitive games and had fun, and I took the same approach to others who wanted to proxy cards in order to play.
As the supply of the older power cards shrinks, either through individuals/stores hoarding them for resale and profit or as cards become damaged or lost, prices will inevitably continue to rise. Should someone be kept out of the game because they cannot or will not pay $XXX for a Black Lotus or a handful of Moxen? The argument that "if someone really wants to play Card X, they need to get it or screw them" is pretty lame, especially in the down economy (here in the United States). Wanting to eat and have heat for your home should not be in competition with being able to compete at a card game, especially since said GAME may be the one thing that allows them to escape the reality of their situation for a few hours.
I only play on MTGO at this point, so I don't have to deal with proxies. If I want a card, I have to go get it; if it costs more in tix or trade than I am willilng to pay, my deck goes without. That has kept me from picking up cards like Gaea's Cradle, Arcbound Ravager and Goblin Piledriver, because I can't justify to myself paying the equivalent of $10-$20 for a digital item that I will never physically possess.
However, when I played paper Magic, I had no issue with proxies. My roommate in college had full P9 and every other power card in existence, and as I only owned 4 of the P9 (plus a Library of Alexandria), the only way I could compete at T1 with him was to proxy certain cards that I didn't own. He didn't mind, because we played competitive games and had fun, and I took the same approach to others who wanted to proxy cards in order to play.
As the supply of the older power cards shrinks, either through individuals/stores hoarding them for resale and profit or as cards become damaged or lost, prices will inevitably continue to rise. Should someone be kept out of the game because they cannot or will not pay $XXX for a Black Lotus or a handful of Moxen? The argument that "if someone really wants to play Card X, they need to get it or screw them" is pretty lame, especially in the down economy (here in the United States). Wanting to eat and have heat for your home should not be in competition with being able to compete at a card game, especially since said GAME may be the one thing that allows them to escape the reality of their situation for a few hours.
Actually if you are worried about those things maybe you should stop playing magic and focus on the more important things at hand. There are other ways to escape. Also power nine is not legal hear. No need to really play the expensive cards in EDH. You want to play a highly tuned deck then I suggest you pony up the money that comes with that. Otherwise there are many vaild substitutes.
You want to play a highly tuned deck then I suggest you pony up the money that comes with that.
It's funny that is always the answer that people who are willing to spend money have for people who aren't or can't. "If you really wanted to compete, you would spend as much as necessary to do so. If not, go play Pauper in the corner with the rest of the losers while the high-rollers sit at the big kid's table with their pimped all-German all-foil decks."
1: I need a card for a deck but do not yet own it. So I make a proxy to use until I can buy or trade for the real thing.
2: The card is high priced and/or hard to come by in trades. (example, alpha duals, Jtms, etc.)
In my playgroup proxies are allowed with no restrictions because we have never had any problems with them. I usually only have about five proxies max because I generally have the cards I need. If Proxies become a problem many groups limit the number of them. I've heard 10-15 as the highest amount of proxies and around 5 as the lowest allowed. I think anywhere between 5-10 proxies is a reasonable number.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks:
:symr::symr::symr: RDW :symr::symr::symr:
:symr::symr::symr: Burn :symr::symr::symr:
:symu::symr: Niv-Mizzet :symu::symr:
:symb::symr: Olivia Voldaren :symb::symr:
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People that proxy those cards don't get to participate here. Once I see those cards are proxied I ignore their turns and plays.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
When I made my first edh deck irl(Wort, the Raidmother), I had 25 proxies(most cost less than Eternal Witness.) because I heard the local group was pretty forgiving of that. In the coming weeks, I got it down to 13, then 6, and if I made the deck now, I'd have only two(Cradle and Taiga).
I think people just need to chill.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Raises Hand. I'm also a college student but I work 2 jobs so that helps :). I Actually don't own a tabernacle YET. But I have everything else you could imagine (Imperial Recruiter, Library of Alexandria, Mishra's Workshop, Grim Tutor, Duals, Everything is in Beta too because I hate white boarders)
While I have a good job, I can't bring myself to get Beta Duals. That's where I draw the line. Not dropping $300+ per card. I settle for FBB German to get rid of the white border.
So, instead of everybody proxying money cards to "even the playing field," why not convince everyone to a) only use cards they own and b) only use cards that everyone in the group has or can get pretty easily. Level field, and encourages participants to get better stuff and "move up" together. Deckbuild as a team, play as rivals. Eventually everyone will get close to the "topped out" version of their deck, at which point the guy with the Imperial Seal can use it again as a piece of "super secret tech" as it were.
This is pretty much how it works with the people I play with. We all have good jobs, and can eventually acquire whatever we want. I realize we're lucky in that respect. One guy shows up with his fancy new Grim Tutor, we all trade, sell, and save up for one of our own (or an equally awesome card). Someone got a Korean Natural Order--I one-upped him by getting a Beta Force Field. That's how it works. A little competition to keep us on our toes.
Yeah this is true, it is kinda of annoying. Personally I try and mirror my RL cards so if I make a deck i like I can make it irl. and I use cockatrice for testing cards I may want to buy rather then RL proxies.
I was the only person in my group to use proxies.....I stopped.
If you don't have a card you want, just find a substitute. Would Gaea's Cradle be fantastic for my card? Yes. Do I care enough to spend at least $25 on it? Nope.
I kinda look down upon people with real or proxied Mana Drains...spending that much on one card is ridiculous, but if you want a card that awesome...you should buy it. My solution: Overlook the card.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
1) If i have to pay for my cards, you should have to pay for yours.
My response to that is that you do not have to pay for your cards, you too have the option to proxy, what you have is a desire to play with the real cards, not a need.
2) Magic costs money
My response is that it doesnt have to cost money, again you too have the option to proxy, you choose not to because again, you want to play with real cards.
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
I think someone on the first page summed up proxies for casual play really well though.
Of course, you should always inform any new opponents that you play with proxies before you start a game with them so they don't potentially blow up about it. If you'd like this demonstrated visually then check out this video I found.
(SKIP to 6:25): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgxQ7vSvC9Q
I got a laugh or two out of the scene when things went bad. I think they could have overreacted a bit more though.
So it just depends on where you come from I suppose. I've been conditioned to acquire and use real cards for tournaments. It's a hard mindset to break--I can't stand the fakeness of proxies, and I love the feeling of "finally getting that piece of awesome for the deck." Maybe it's supposed to be that way. Maybe proxies cheapen the game in more ways than one.
But for people who've never played at even an FNM, they don't care. It's never mattered. They just want to play. And they get used to it. And then they come down to local shops after hearing about EDH, thinking it's okay to have 75%+ proxies for their "Sharuum Deck," and they butt heads with those of us who use real cards. My Thrun Voltron still isn't quite complete. Need a Wasteland, Gaea's Cradle, and Sol Ring to "complete it." But I'm not proxying. Those spots are occupied by Forests until I get the additional copies. I won't borrow from other decks, either. Mostly because of laziness.
Overall, I dislike proxies. One or two are okay if you announce well beforehand that you're using them. Sure. But they still take away what I consider to be a key aspect of the game--trading and acquiring real cards. And a good number of the people who I've met who abuse them have a gross sense of entitlement in general, not just MtG. Not the most amicable of playmates anyway.
Except once again it is you who are making it a collectible card game...it is not a collectible card game to the pros out there for instance, all you can really say about mtg is that it is a game, trying to add a purpose to it is only going to be subjective, and subjective arguments are just sooo easy to pick apart
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
URThe Joy of Painting with Nin, the Pain Artist!UR
- I dislike proxies.
- There are a lot of cards in magic - using the "best" one is not always an option; but there are plenty of substitutes.
- For a casual playgroup that doesn't know every card by heart - proxies make it harder to play the game than cards that "are in possession" (rules text, FAQ).
- Proxies allow one to play much different cards than they would normally play/have access too. This isn't "bad" but it isn't great either.
My Trade Thread!
yep, secondary market doesn't do anything for wizards. So buying stuff for EDH doesn't do anything unless you're buying packs trying to find a consecrated sphinx or whatever (just got mine today! prepare to feel my wrath, world!) which is a pretty terrible way to find anything. If you want to help wizards, do more drafts and save your money when it comes to EDH.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
This is not entirely true. Here is an argument for the secondary market being, at least tertiarily, beneficial for WotC:
The Premises:
Wizards sells Magic cards and earns a bulk of their profits from selling sealed product. Once the product is bought by distributers WotC never sees another cent from that particular product. The cards within are parted out or collected by various players and stores. Those stores sell some of the opened product as singles (which WotC doesn't receive money for). Players and collectors buy the parted out singles from various stores.
The Analyses:
Now since you seem to have no problem with proxying no mater the circumstances then we can take this argument to the logical extreme. Let's say proxying becomes vary popular and more and more people begin to proxy cards rather than buy singles from their LGS or an online retailer. Now we run into this problem: stores start earning less profit which creates increasing difficult for them when it comes to buying sealed product from their distributer. The distributers will, in turn, not be able to buy as much sealed product from WotC which cuts into their profits.
Conclusion:
It may not be easy to measure (it may be impossible to measure) but someone proxying instead of buying a card does have an impact on WotC as a company even if it is an extremely slight effect (which stacks for the number of people who engage in the practice).
To clarify though I am not arguing against all proxying, I just wanted to make the point that it does have at least a theoretical effect on WotC and proxying rarely helps them as a company. That is one of the reasons I like buying my cards rather than proxying because it sends the message to WotC (even if that message is indirect) that I like their game enough to participate in the industry which they have set up.
This is fact... Period...
1) Proxies do nothing to hurt the game, unless large amounts of people engage in excessive amounts of proxying, which all of you know will not happen.
Just because everyone has acsses to proxys doesn't not mean they will use them. There will still be people who buy the real thing. The majority of the people I know that use proxies buy the real thing eventually, including me. But even if they choose not to there will still be individuals, like me, that will buy the real card.
- I dislike spending a ton of money all at once on $300 cards.
- No there are not. At least not for people like me, and most people that I know.... We enjoy playing optimal decks. You may enjoy creativity. fine. Me and my folks mostly enjoy hasve a well oiled machine. Aint nothing wrong with either, but proxies are not the problem...
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
No, it is a trading card game. That's not subjective. That's what it says on the Wizards site, because that's what it is. People may play it professionally, but it's still a tcg. There are professional football players, and yet it's still a sport right?
And I'm sure the pros have collected and traded many cards over the years, so unless you're implying that they only buy cards for the decks they're going to run in a tourney, then sell them to someone else, then it's still a tcg/ccg.
That's what I have an issue with. The fact that people feel entitled to having these cards. If you want the card then get it. If you can't afford it now, then save for it. If you don't want to save for it then it just can't be that important to you.
mxmlmn on cockatrice
Actually it is a collectible card game whether you like it or not. Magic is a trading card game. To one extent or another every trading card game is collectible. Magic has been around so long that it is collectible. If you don't have money to buy cards then you clearly can't afford your hobby. Collect rocks then please. The only exceptions I have are cards you own in other decks or that you own but are somewhere else(another deck or you are getting them painted.)
Yes this is a casual game. That doesn't mean that the guy that bought his deck should sit next to a guy with an all proxy deck and expect a fulfilling game. And the amount of money you spend does not impact the amount of games you win. Sure if you play blue and dump all your money into making a lock/ control deck, then that is kind of lame. What deck really really needs a wasteland? There are so many options to choose from to replace that card.
I have many different decks, and I play with a deck according to my play groups means. If they aren't very rich, and don't have the means to get many cards I have a few fun decks. You guys think that the guy with all the money is being a jerk and making the best deck and gets his jollies over rolling over the poor guy. No, That is not true. Those are the guys that you should be not playing with to insure a healthy play group.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
This I have a problem with. There are so many dual lands out there that there is no good reason that you HAVE to use original duals. It affects you in no way to use the other lands out there 99% of the time. If you are playing for that one percent then you are just proving the point that people who proxy cards they don't have are self righteous and full of themselves and cut throat.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
However, when I played paper Magic, I had no issue with proxies. My roommate in college had full P9 and every other power card in existence, and as I only owned 4 of the P9 (plus a Library of Alexandria), the only way I could compete at T1 with him was to proxy certain cards that I didn't own. He didn't mind, because we played competitive games and had fun, and I took the same approach to others who wanted to proxy cards in order to play.
As the supply of the older power cards shrinks, either through individuals/stores hoarding them for resale and profit or as cards become damaged or lost, prices will inevitably continue to rise. Should someone be kept out of the game because they cannot or will not pay $XXX for a Black Lotus or a handful of Moxen? The argument that "if someone really wants to play Card X, they need to get it or screw them" is pretty lame, especially in the down economy (here in the United States). Wanting to eat and have heat for your home should not be in competition with being able to compete at a card game, especially since said GAME may be the one thing that allows them to escape the reality of their situation for a few hours.
Actually if you are worried about those things maybe you should stop playing magic and focus on the more important things at hand. There are other ways to escape. Also power nine is not legal hear. No need to really play the expensive cards in EDH. You want to play a highly tuned deck then I suggest you pony up the money that comes with that. Otherwise there are many vaild substitutes.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
It's funny that is always the answer that people who are willing to spend money have for people who aren't or can't. "If you really wanted to compete, you would spend as much as necessary to do so. If not, go play Pauper in the corner with the rest of the losers while the high-rollers sit at the big kid's table with their pimped all-German all-foil decks."
1: I need a card for a deck but do not yet own it. So I make a proxy to use until I can buy or trade for the real thing.
2: The card is high priced and/or hard to come by in trades. (example, alpha duals, Jtms, etc.)
In my playgroup proxies are allowed with no restrictions because we have never had any problems with them. I usually only have about five proxies max because I generally have the cards I need. If Proxies become a problem many groups limit the number of them. I've heard 10-15 as the highest amount of proxies and around 5 as the lowest allowed. I think anywhere between 5-10 proxies is a reasonable number.