I'm currently planning a Commander deck based on the Epic spells from Saviors of Kamigawa. The deck will most likely include Eternal Dominion, Endless Swarm, and potentially Enduring Ideal (although that last one is a little complicated).
While I'm still mulling my options for a commander, I would like to know which mechanics are able to get around the Epic restriction to allow me to continue to interact in the game. Obviously, there are creature and artifact abilities that can still be activated, but so far the list of spell abilities is:
I think you hit most of the big ones. I tried to think of some when I considered playing a deck like this but never could. You could run pheldagriff as the general.
Enduring Ideal may not sound like it, but it's arguably the best of the five epic spells. A couple of enchantments are all it takes to bring down a crushing board lock. They also give you ton of versatility. For example, Solitary Confinement and any card-drawing enchantment will hide you behind a hard prison lock. Privileged Position and Sterling Grove together protect your board from being targeted by anything. Also, all the Seals are basically spells in enchantment form. Debtor's Knell and Survival of the Fittest gives you all the creatures and spells you could want.
Transmute is great with Tolaria West, as you can still play whatever land you go get. Maze of Ith for one.
Dont forget that if you are able to copy an epic spell when it is being cast you will have multiple epic spells resolve every turn. When an epic spell first resolves it puts the epic on the stack so every time you are able to originally resolve one you get multiple epics on the stack.
This makes red a very good color to have in with your epics as there are lots of copy target spell effects in red.
Twincast and Echo Mage are both solid cards as well that you should consider for the deck.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I always enjoyed resolving Ice Caves before I go for the epic spell, at least in 60-card Magic. That way, you can spend the rest of your game sinking all your mana into making sure no one else can stop you.
Your own Epic spell is typically expensive enough to dodge Ice Caves, and I'm sure you should be playing Boseiju, who Shelters All to force it through, anyway.
Some awesome suggestions, thanks. I think right now I want to avoid Enduring Ideal, as it's so dominating in terms of deck construction (though easily the strongest of the bunch). I'll likely go for something a little more offbeat like Vorosh, the Hunter, which lets me use the mighty Eternal Domination, the slightly less mighty Endless Swarm, tutors and ramp.
I always enjoyed resolving Ice Caves before I go for the epic spell, at least in 60-card Magic. That way, you can spend the rest of your game sinking all your mana into making sure no one else can stop you.
Your own Epic spell is typically expensive enough to dodge Ice Caves, and I'm sure you should be playing Boseiju, who Shelters All to force it through, anyway.
Countering the Epic spell only counters the original. The Epic triggers will still resolve every turn.
Well when picking colors perhaps you should break it down color by color.
White (wraths)
Green (ramp to the epic spell)
Blue (best epic spell, card draw, counters, some copying effects)
Red (lots of copying effects for the epic)
Black (tutors, kill)
Personally when looking at the colors I would say that Blue is a must have as it has the best epic spell plus card drawing and counters to get you there, beyond that I would say black would be a very good choice as well as it has kill and tutors. A third or more color would be a bit up in the air if even needed. U/B at the very least I would look into.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The very first thing you tutor up with EI is Dovescape. You win that turn, instead of leaving your board open to removal spells. The next is Solitary Confinement, and then Honden of Seeing Winds. Finally, Privileged Position/Sterling Grove. With Emrakul no longer in the format, only Obliterate is guaranteed to stop you once you've got the board position set up.
The very first thing you tutor up with EI is Dovescape. You win that turn, instead of leaving your board open to removal spells. The next is Solitary Confinement, and then Honden of Seeing Winds. Finally, Privileged Position/Sterling Grove. With Emrakul no longer in the format, only Obliterate is guaranteed to stop you once you've got the board position set up.
This is all assuming the current board conditions are good for this to work. If someone has Mayael the Anima or some sort of tutoring general the puts things directly into play you might have to think about what they could do yet.
That is a good combo but it still requires the board conditions to be favorable when you begin executing it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I built a Wizards tribal deck that used Uyo, Sigil Tracer and Mischievous Quanar to copy Eternal Dominion. With the proper setup it could tutor every opponent's deck into play. It was my attempt at building a fun Azami deck.
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EDH FTW
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG WRG Mayael the Anima WRG WB Triad of Fates WB BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR WR Aurelia the Warleader WR WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
I don't get it, how does dovescape win you the game? and how is drawing cards with a honden useful when you can't cast spells anymore?
Most decks don't run Magus of the Disk? And the ones that do are White? Same with Vexing Shusher (except GR), but I've yet to see a mass enchantment removal spell in decks like that. Boseiju, however, I will concede to.
And I take back the Obliterate comment: Forgot it doesn't hit enchantments.
As for the reason it wins: They can't counter Enduring Ideal (easily) once Dovescape hits the table, thus leaving you free to do as you please. It's a lockdown: Only creature-based mass-removal (like Nova Chaser) can stop it (and even that won't work if you've got Wheel of Fortune).
Who cares if they get a ton of Bird tokens instead of their Banefire? Unless they have Sarkhan Vol or Concordant Crossroads out, they won't be able to hurt you after your next turn.
Countering the Epic spell only counters the original. The Epic triggers will still resolve every turn.
please explain cause this doesnt help me much
702.47 - Epic
* 702.47a - Epic represents both a static ability and a delayed triggered ability. "Epic" means "For the rest of the game, you can't cast spells," and "At the beginning of each of your upkeeps for the rest of the game, copy this spell except for its epic ability. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for the copy." See Rule 706.9. [CompRules 2009/07/08]
* 702.47b - A player can't cast spells once a spell with epic he or she controls resolves, but effects (such as the epic ability itself) can still put copies of spells onto the stack. [CompRules 2009/07/08]
* 702.47a - Epic represents both a static ability and a delayed triggered ability. "Epic" means "For the rest of the game, you can't cast spells," and "At the beginning of each of your upkeeps for the rest of the game, copy this spell except for its epic ability. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for the copy." See Rule 706.9. [CompRules 2009/07/08]
* 702.47b - A player can't cast spells once a spell with epic he or she controls resolves, but effects (such as the epic ability itself) can still put copies of spells onto the stack. [CompRules 2009/07/08]
I think it just works the same way as cascade. When the spell is cast, the spell goes on the stack, followed by the cascade ability. If the spell is subsequently countered, the cascade ability remains on the stack anyway. It will resolve, and you'll probably eat a Blightning.
Substitute "epic" for "cascade" and it should make sense.
I think it just works the same way as cascade. When the spell is cast, the spell goes on the stack, followed by the cascade ability. If the spell is subsequently countered, the cascade ability remains on the stack anyway. It will resolve, and you'll probably eat a Blightning. Substitute "epic" for "cascade" and it should make sense.
I'm pretty sure this is just wrong -- Epic happens on resolution of the original spell, whereas Cascade says "when you cast ~." I'm certainly fallible, though; can someone with a quasi-encyclopedic knowledge of the rules (viperesque?) lend us a hand here? Or I can just ask in the Rules forum. brb
Who cares if they get a ton of Bird tokens instead of their Banefire? Unless they have Sarkhan Vol or Concordant Crossroads out, they won't be able to hurt you after your next turn.
If X= 5 or greater for their banefire, they won't get any bird tokens, and something will get fried.
Wrong, reread Dovescape. You will get bird tokens AND fry something.
THE MORE YOU KNOW.
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EDH Decks:
Halfdane Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
I'm currently planning a Commander deck based on the Epic spells from Saviors of Kamigawa. The deck will most likely include Eternal Dominion, Endless Swarm, and potentially Enduring Ideal (although that last one is a little complicated).
While I'm still mulling my options for a commander, I would like to know which mechanics are able to get around the Epic restriction to allow me to continue to interact in the game. Obviously, there are creature and artifact abilities that can still be activated, but so far the list of spell abilities is:
Cycling (Decree of Pain)
Channel (Arashi, the Sky Asunder)
Forecast (Proclamation of Rebirth)
Transmute (This works, but what would I even transmute for? Grozoth into Decree of Savagery?)
What other abilities like these (or even interesting individual cards) can get past the Epic restriction?
Wanted Card List: (PM me)
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Ravages of War
1 Swords to Plowshares (Judge)
1 Land Tax (Judge)
U
1 Mana Vortex
B
1 Desolation Angel (Foil)
1 Guardian Beast
1 Contamination
R
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
G
1 Food Chain
WUBRG
1 Rohgahh of Kher Keep
X
1 Charcoal Diamond (Foil)
1 Fellwar Stone (Foil)
T
1 Temple Garden (Foil)
3 Mutavault
1 Kor Haven
Transmute is great with Tolaria West, as you can still play whatever land you go get. Maze of Ith for one.
Don't forget to copy your epic spells with Twincast, Fork, Reverberate, Mirari, Uyo, etc!
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This makes red a very good color to have in with your epics as there are lots of copy target spell effects in red.
Twincast and Echo Mage are both solid cards as well that you should consider for the deck.
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[Modern] Allies
The most obvious route is going Bant Enchantress with Enduring Ideal. You can produce a pretty strong deck this way.
Eternal Dominion is the next best option, but the rest are pretty difficult to build around, especially because they're so easy to stop.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Your own Epic spell is typically expensive enough to dodge Ice Caves, and I'm sure you should be playing Boseiju, who Shelters All to force it through, anyway.
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Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
White (wraths)
Green (ramp to the epic spell)
Blue (best epic spell, card draw, counters, some copying effects)
Red (lots of copying effects for the epic)
Black (tutors, kill)
Personally when looking at the colors I would say that Blue is a must have as it has the best epic spell plus card drawing and counters to get you there, beyond that I would say black would be a very good choice as well as it has kill and tutors. A third or more color would be a bit up in the air if even needed. U/B at the very least I would look into.
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[Modern] Allies
NO!
The very first thing you tutor up with EI is Dovescape. You win that turn, instead of leaving your board open to removal spells. The next is Solitary Confinement, and then Honden of Seeing Winds. Finally, Privileged Position/Sterling Grove. With Emrakul no longer in the format, only Obliterate is guaranteed to stop you once you've got the board position set up.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
This is all assuming the current board conditions are good for this to work. If someone has Mayael the Anima or some sort of tutoring general the puts things directly into play you might have to think about what they could do yet.
That is a good combo but it still requires the board conditions to be favorable when you begin executing it.
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[Modern] Allies
Also Vexing Shusher and Boseiju, Who Shelters All
thanks again!
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR
WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG
WRG Mayael the Anima WRG
WB Triad of Fates WB
BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR
WR Aurelia the Warleader WR
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
Most decks don't run Magus of the Disk? And the ones that do are White? Same with Vexing Shusher (except GR), but I've yet to see a mass enchantment removal spell in decks like that. Boseiju, however, I will concede to.
And I take back the Obliterate comment: Forgot it doesn't hit enchantments.
As for the reason it wins: They can't counter Enduring Ideal (easily) once Dovescape hits the table, thus leaving you free to do as you please. It's a lockdown: Only creature-based mass-removal (like Nova Chaser) can stop it (and even that won't work if you've got Wheel of Fortune).
Who cares if they get a ton of Bird tokens instead of their Banefire? Unless they have Sarkhan Vol or Concordant Crossroads out, they won't be able to hurt you after your next turn.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
please explain cause this doesnt help me much
702.47 - Epic
* 702.47a - Epic represents both a static ability and a delayed triggered ability. "Epic" means "For the rest of the game, you can't cast spells," and "At the beginning of each of your upkeeps for the rest of the game, copy this spell except for its epic ability. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for the copy." See Rule 706.9. [CompRules 2009/07/08]
* 702.47b - A player can't cast spells once a spell with epic he or she controls resolves, but effects (such as the epic ability itself) can still put copies of spells onto the stack. [CompRules 2009/07/08]
URThe Joy of Painting with Nin, the Pain Artist!UR
:symb::snow: Seizan, Perverter of Truth
I think it just works the same way as cascade. When the spell is cast, the spell goes on the stack, followed by the cascade ability. If the spell is subsequently countered, the cascade ability remains on the stack anyway. It will resolve, and you'll probably eat a Blightning.
Substitute "epic" for "cascade" and it should make sense.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
I'm pretty sure this is just wrong -- Epic happens on resolution of the original spell, whereas Cascade says "when you cast ~." I'm certainly fallible, though; can someone with a quasi-encyclopedic knowledge of the rules (viperesque?) lend us a hand here? Or I can just ask in the Rules forum. brb
EDIT:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=304732
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If X= 5 or greater for their banefire, they won't get any bird tokens, and something will get fried.
Banefire
If you can set up and protect a Crypt Rats + pro-black when you have Dovescape out, this might not be a bad idea.
The Epic trigger only happens if the spell resolves.
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Wrong, reread Dovescape. You will get bird tokens AND fry something.
THE MORE YOU KNOW.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
What do you mean? With Paradox Haze in play, Epic will trigger in each of your upkeeps.
Also, if you counter a copied Epic spell during an upkeep, it will just trigger again next upkeep.