General EDH Ban List Discussion

  • #1
    As you can see in another of my threads, I have an extreme dislike for certain cards used in EDH. What I am doing here is posting a list with cards that are horrible to play against, as others agree with me. The use? To create a list that stops people from playing games which just involve you (on the receiving end of such decks) going "Ok" for about 15 times in their turn while some loop goes off. Feel free to weigh in on the list, with suggestions why a card listed should be removed or a card not yet listed should be added to it. My reasoning behind most of the cards: You don't have a 99 card library to play a game spanning a handful of turns. This format is designed for long games. You want a quick game, play a booster battle.

    THIS IS NOT A RANT.
    THIS LIST IS INTENDED FOR 1 V 1 EDH.
    WORK IN PROGRESS

    Please note:
    Anybody posting suggestions without proper reasoning as to why their proposed cards should be removed/added will be reported, without exception.

    Generals to be avoided:
    Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
    Brokenly strong given that he can be played on turn 2, already giving you 2 mana + mana from your lands themselves at turn 3.
    Arcum Dagsson
    Sets up infinite combos.
    Uril, the Miststalker
    Halfshroud on its own accord with decent CCM and P/T make this a highly competitive (read: boring if you're playing against him) general.
    Braids, Cabal Minion
    Sucks all the fun out of a game when you haven't built for this.

    Cards to be avoided:
    The Power 9. They are the Power 9, after all.
    Mox Pearl
    Mox Jet
    Mox Ruby
    Mox Emerald
    Mox Sapphire
    Time Walk
    Ancestrall Recall
    Black Lotus
    Timetwister

    Balance
    Crippling. There's a reason it wasn't reprinted.
    Biorhythm
    Paired with mana acceleration, the chance is high your enemy gets this off the ground before you do anything with it.
    Coalition Victory
    Instant wins are never fun, especially not when its conditions are so easily met with a format like ours.

    Yawgmoth's Bargain
    Allows the player to draw 39 cards in EDH, assuming no damage has been taken. In a deck of 99 cards, that's half your deck for free. Out of the question.

    Crucible of World
    After thinking about it some (read: being bothered about it) I've decided to remove the land destruction lands and add this.
    Last edited by Syphon: 3/14/2010 1:13:15 PM
    [I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
  • #2
  • #3
    Whats wrong with the old dual lands? I don't see a problem with them. Sure people may not have access to them, but that doesn't stop legacy players from not using them. They're not a staple for sure, i've built many decks without them that still find ways to win, so I don't think they're that big of a deal.

    Another card that I try to avoid is Strip Mine/Wasteland, Land Destruction really makes people dislike you, so avoiding it at all costs is necessary for me.


    EDH:
    BRGSek'kuar, the DeathkeeperGRB
    BUGThe MimeoplasmGUB
    WUGDereviWUG
  • #4
    Quote from barhitea
    Whats wrong with the old dual lands? I don't see a problem with them. Sure people may not have access to them, but that doesn't stop legacy players from not using them. They're not a staple for sure, i've built many decks without them that still find ways to win, so I don't think they're that big of a deal.


    I stated this before: This is because there are no drawbacks involved. They don't CITP tapped or need you to pay 2 life to CITP untapped. In fact, I think that this list could probably start out by getting rid of the earlier sets completely.

    Another card that I try to avoid is Strip Mine/Wasteland, Land Destruction really makes people dislike you, so avoiding it at all costs is necessary for me.


    Agreed. Land destruction is a pain in the behind. Crucible of Worlds is okay (though "the other list" has it banned), but a no-no is definitely Strip Mine, Wasteland and other such recyclable shenanigans on lands.

    Quote from Weebos
    Is there not already an EDH banned list?
    I see no reason for there to be another one.


    I do. There are, for one, no banned generals other than Braids on that one. There are definitely those who deserve to be banned, as per my example.


    Also my friend plays an extremely streamlined Uril, The Miststalker deck and he never wins our multiplayer games, I certainly see no reason for banning him. Perhaps you intend this list for 1 on 1?


    This was indeed started by looking at 1 on 1.
    Last edited by Syphon: 3/14/2010 12:17:22 PM
    [I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
  • #5
    Quote from Syphon
    I do. There are, for one, no banned generals other than Braids on that one. There are definitely those who deserve to be banned, as per my example.


    Except all of your cards except for the generals (except Braids) and Timetwister are already on the banned list.

    So do you actually have any new suggestions that have never been mentioned before?
    MTGS: You guys do not speak for the wider Magic community despite what you guys think.

    708th at Grand Prix: Toronto 2013

    Modern: U/R Delver
    Standard: Maybe after rotation
    Legacy: Dredge
    EDH: Too many
  • #6
    Quote from raventime22
    Except all of your cards except for the generals (except Braids) and Timetwister are already on the banned list.

    So do you actually have any new suggestions that have never been mentioned before?


    As I stated, this is a work in progress. I will propose more additions/deletions in due time.
    [I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
  • #7
    Quote from Syphon
    As I stated, this is a work in progress. I will propose more additions/deletions in due time.


    Well, then could you have at least put some new stuff in your initial post other then parroting the existing banned list with the single caveat of banned generals, which most are actually not that bad.

    Are you suggesting a seperate 1 v 1 list? Is this for both mutiplayer or duel?

    Reading you previous responses I have a feeling you don't understand the concept of EDH.

    Getting rid of old sets violates the principle of EDH as a format where people can play cards that they may never have a use for in regular Magic but are viable in EDH.

    Seriously ban the Alpha Duals. Why? What infinite disgusting combo can one do with them. Is it price? What is so bad about them. You can only ever run one of each. In mono they're useless, in two colour you only have one, in three-colour you only have access to three. Five colour yes you have access to all ten but a five-colour mana base is already unstable enough as is.

    Plus the targeted land destruction you dislike like Strip Mine and Wasteland and other stuff like Ruination can keep the supposed overpowered duals in check.
    Last edited by raventime22: 3/14/2010 1:05:21 PM
    MTGS: You guys do not speak for the wider Magic community despite what you guys think.

    708th at Grand Prix: Toronto 2013

    Modern: U/R Delver
    Standard: Maybe after rotation
    Legacy: Dredge
    EDH: Too many
  • #8
    i think the first thing you shoud say is if you intend to make a multiplayer list or a 1vs1 list.

    The multplayer list is probably already tuned! The 1vs1 is not official and needs some tweeking but it's a good base for now!
    woa... i was pretty sure i should be blue/white or blue/black before this!

  • #9
    Quote from falknir
    i think the first thing you shoud say is if you intend to make a multiplayer list or a 1vs1 list.

    The multplayer list is probably already tuned! The 1vs1 is not official and needs some tweeking but it's a good base for now!


    If it's 1 v 1 then Sol Ring should be on the list.

    Still want to know why the Alpha duals are on the list since they don't provide crazy acceleration or anything broken and the lack of drawback is NOT a real reason.
    MTGS: You guys do not speak for the wider Magic community despite what you guys think.

    708th at Grand Prix: Toronto 2013

    Modern: U/R Delver
    Standard: Maybe after rotation
    Legacy: Dredge
    EDH: Too many
  • #10
    I wouldn't ban Wasteland or Strip Mine. Instead, ban the real culprit for being able to create those kind of locks -- Crucible of Worlds.

    I also don't think Uril is that bad of a problem, especially when Azami is far more powerful and dangerous.
  • #11
    Quote from raventime22
    Reading you previous responses I have a feeling you don't understand the concept of EDH.

    Getting rid of old sets violates the principle of EDH as a format where people can play cards that they may never have a use for in regular Magic but are viable in EDH.


    Gotta agree with Raventime on this one. It seems like you don't understand EDH as an "Eternal" format. Cards are not banned via inaccessibility or rarity, rather just power and brokenness.

    Also, by the way you argue, it seems like your experience of EDH is primarily 1 v 1 rather than its designed multiplayer format. A big table will have answers to keep annoying generals like rofellos and Uril in check, but maybe there should be a 1v1 general banned list.

    Also, Land destruction is 100% vital in an EDH format. Some Lands Just Need to Be Destroyed. I agree that recursive land destruction (Or fetching for that matter) off of crucible of worlds is broken, but hey, that's why the french banned it. Maybe we should adapt that list

    The way it stands now, I think the current EDH banned list is fine. If I could choose, I would add 2 more cards to it: [CARD]Crucible of Worlds
    [/CARD] because of recursive LD and Iona, Shield of Emeria, simply because she ends games in an un-fun manner. (I reanimated her once T4 against a mono-black deck and a Grixis deck. Needless to say, she deserves to be banned)

    Last I heard, there was an update (albeit small) to the banned list coming sometime in march. Maybe it'll be soon?
    Trade Binder

    Currently Playing:

    Legacy:
    RRRBurnRRR
    RRRGoblinsRRR
    WUBRGIchoridWUBRG
    Modern:
    UUUMerfolkUUU
    RRRBurnRRR
    WUBRGCycling EndWUBRG
    EDH:
    WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
    BBBDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefBBB
    WWWLinvala, Keeper of SilenceWWW
    GBSkullbriar, the Walking GraveBG
    GGGOmnath, Locus of ManaGGG
    RRRKiki-Jiki, Mirror BreakerRRR
    WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
    RBUSedris, Traitor KingUBR
    WRGUril, the MistalkerGRW
    RGRosheen MeandererGR
    GWCaptain SisayWG
    UUMemnarchUU

  • #12
    This thread just sounds like an excuse to rant about cards you don't like.

    Wasteland and Strip Mine? Really? How else am I going to deal with Tolarian Academy - or do you want to ban all "broken" nonbasics too?

    EDH can be a fun format - but I really hate the attitudes of some people who play it.
    Limited enthusiast, Legacy miser, and begrudging Commander.
  • #13
    I don't think Crucible should be banned in the multiplayer list. People just don't run enough graveyard hate in general.

    @ Zoil714: The update for the ban list should be coming really soon... like within the week.
  • #14
    I'd take a look at the banned list that already exists first and just post additions to it. Also, banning Wasteland/Stripmine is really silly without banning the cards that they need to be available to get rid of first. Such cards include, but are not limited to: Tolarian Academy , Academy Ruins , Maze of Ith , Kor Haven , Volraths Stronghold , Cabal Coffers

    Also, I would rethink your position on Uril, he isn't even in the same league as the other 3. Especially because you know, you can just block him. If you are worried about him getting trample, well thats a 2 card combo involving a general, and a pretty bad one at that. So then you should probably get rid of every other general that has a bad/good 2 card combo, including Niv-Mizzet and a few others.
    EDH Decks:
    Halfdane

    Sek'Kuar
    Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
  • #15
    Fine. Fixed. Happy? Geez. Early dual lands are now unbanned in this list, and Crucible has been banned.

    Zoil, this is primarily for 1v1 on MWS, where availability is not an issue. Also, I have possibly played more multiplayer EDH than 1v1 EDH, so I have some experience in the field.

    Warlock, how are we going to deal with Tolarian Academy, etc? I found that those cards are not as bad as Stripmine. Getting that much mana is not nearly as bad as being denied your mana.

    Makaro, you don't have to agree with this list. You could be a bit more gracious about it, though.
    Last edited by Syphon: 3/14/2010 1:19:32 PM
    [I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
  • #16
    Quote from Syphon


    I'll say it again: No. Drawback. Okay? See it? I stand by this. No drawback for those lands, which means they are far stronger than Ravnica's duals. I believe those things shouldn't be anywhere near my EDH decks.


    Just letting you know, a lot of lands are better than the Ravnica Dual lands. For instance, the shard tri-lands are better than the Rav duals in 3 color decks. The shadowmoor hybrid lands are better than the rav duals in 2 color decks (and arguably 3 color ones too, but then that starts to depends on the mana requirements of the cards you have in your deck.)

    If you are banning things just because they are better than the Ravnica duals then you are going to have A LOT of work cut out for you. If you are banning them because they come into play untapped then you should ban basics. If you are banning them because they are strictly better than basics then you need to ban most of the legendary lands that don't come into play tapped, like Pendlehaven or Flagstones of Troklair

    Don't forget, sometimes paying 2 life isn't a drawback, I do it all the time when I know I have a Reverse the Sands that I am going to play the turn I play a rav dual.

    Food for thought, cheers.

    EDIT: Gah, edit ninja-ed
    Last edited by Blue Warlock: 3/14/2010 1:30:29 PM
    EDH Decks:
    Halfdane

    Sek'Kuar
    Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
  • #17
    I would like to hear why people think Sol Ring should be on the list. I have an idea why, but can anybody else chime in?
    [I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
  • #18
    I personally dont like banning cards because they are TOO expensive unless they would be must haves in any deck playing their color (lotus, moxen time walk) One CAN make completely workable mana bases without having the duals, but if you like to build a deck over time and improve it one step at a time then ABUR duals are a great way to do that... not only that but those lands will always be valuable.

    I LOVE strip mine, wasteland, ghost quarter, tectonic edge etc. simply because i HATE tolarian academy and academy ruins. I dont think they should be banned as they tend to be a necessity. As for banning Crucible thats just lame. (of coarse i play ob nixilis who needs it in addition to fetch lands to actually utilize his ability) I tend to agree with surging chaos on this in that graveyard hate is extremely necessary evil in this format. When i first heard about EDH and wanted to build a deck to be good my first thought was... recursion recursion recursion... if we are only allowed one of's, then i want to create a deck of TWO of's and went with dralnu, lich lord. Being the most powerful tool in EDH most people should have some form of answer to it.

    Uril being on that list, while azami is not is just well... short sighted i guess is a good non offensive term to use?

    There is no point to this post other than to discuss what you dont like about the current banned lists available... which is a completely valid conversation, that has had plenty of posts in the past.
    Last edited by aryakin: 3/14/2010 1:49:23 PM
  • #19
    Aryakin, to "defend" my choice: I haven't seen anybody actually play Azami, so I cannot judge on the merits. However, as I stated in the first post: Feel free to post what you think should be on the list if you can back it up.
    [I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
  • #20
    I'll just chime in and add Sorin Markov and Magister Sphinx. I'd like to see Rofellos get banned too, but I doubt that will happen.

    Markov, more so than Sphinx, just seems like a really cheap play. I would settle if both of these cards got special errata along the lines of "Target opponent's life total becomes 20".
  • #21
    Uril has lots of answers available to him in every color but red, I don't believe he should be on the list. Black has wrath effects along with edicts, as most strong uril decks play acceleration with many enchantments, and few creatures. Green can destroy the enchantments that make him dangerous, blue can straight up counter him, and white can both destroy his enchantments, and him. Just because you don't play a deck with easy answers to him, doesn't mean they don't exist.
  • #22
    By now the guys who compiled the "official" banned list for multiplayer should be aware that EDH is played beyond multiplayer.

    As such shouldn't they try to put the french banned list as a suitable one for 1vs1 play (i supose it's the same list we use... sort off). At least that way i could explain to ppl why i'm playing certain cards even though they entered a game that clearly said "MTGsalvatiopn banned list" :S


    Anyways ..i think if there was a list in the official site it would all be better. I'm sure someone here as contacted the "gurus" of the official site before... don't you guys think this should be implemented? It would be a step further in making EDH more global!
    woa... i was pretty sure i should be blue/white or blue/black before this!

  • #23
    I've tried this before. I made a thread in the Rules Discussion section of the official forums last September, called "Petition: Please officially sanction a separate, 1v1 banlist." I don't think I'm allowed to post a link here, but I'm sure you can find it if you go looking for it.

    The thread went to 5 pages (mostly people agreeing with me or multiplayers purists telling me that 1v1 shouldn't exist in a multiplayer casual format, despite me carefully explaining that I'm not interested in having that discussion here). It never got an official response from any member of the rules committee though (typical...).

    I still completely agree that the French banlist needs to be posted on the official site. All the arguments I made last year are even more valid now.

    Here's my initial post, for easy reference:

    It is relatively common knowledge that the official, multiplayer banlist is not very well-suited for dueling. Several cards on the official banlist do not need to be banned in 1v1, while certain cards that are not deemed especially problematic in multiplayer are severely unbalanced in duels.

    I fully realize that EDH was never intended to be a 1v1 format, yet many people enjoy playing 1v1 matches. Multiplayer purists complaining about this fact will not stop anyone from playing duels, so please don't bother. Besides being played with cardboard, 1v1 EDH has become extremely popular on MWS (where I can often find an opponent without about 15 seconds), and I understand it is big on MTGO as well.

    The online popularity of EDH necessitates a proper 1v1 banlist. House rules are absolutely unusable when opponents meet for the first time when they start playing, and may never play each other again. An established, 3rd-party banlist is required. Probably because this is the most prominent EDH site, the official banlist posted here is currently used for all online games (at least through MWS). This is a problem for everyone who enjoys dueling, as the multiplayer banlist is simply not very good for 1v1 games. It's not bad enough for people to stop using it, but it's not nearly as good as it could be either.

    I've been trying for over a month now to get my MWS opponents to start switching to the French banlist, which is the only publicized list designed for 1v1 that I know of. It's not perfect in my opinion, but it's pretty good. The trouble is, my efforts are futile. No one wants to switch lists when everyone else is still playing with the multiplayer banlist, and there's no good site to direct people to for the French banlist (steering English-speaking opponents to a French website doesn't work very well). Without official support, from these official forums, most people either disregard the French list, consider it invalid because it's not the "American" system, or are simply unaware of its existence. Though the changes I'm suggesting are very good for the format and improve the quality of the games (I've tested this with two French players I met through MWS), people are resistant to change, especially when there's no perception of an official group supporting the change (Even with Wizards forcing the change, remember the uproar over M10 rules? I'm running into the same kind of resistance, only I'm not Wizards).

    What is needed to fix this situation, I believe, is the posting of a 1v1 banned list on these boards, officially sanctioned by the EDH rules committee. I realize that the rules committee isn't concerned with 1v1 play, but with this small step you could provide a great service to everyone interested in 1v1 EDH, without affecting multiplayer EDH in the slightest. If the rules committee doesn't want to deal with maintaining a 1v1 banlist, that's fine--either copy the French banlist, which is fairly well-maintained, or ask a few intelligent players on these forums who play a lot of 1v1 EDH to do it for you. I don't care if I'm involved with this process or not, though I'd be willing to help with it, or to suggest those who would be well-suited to such a task.

    (For your information, such an ad-hoc rules committee already seems to be forming--I've just been invited to help design the rules and the banlist for the next mtgsalvation MWS EDH tournament, along with 5 others. We're making a suitable 1v1 banlist, modeled off of the French list. We have both competitive and casual players on this "committee": Tharian is on it, so you know not everyone is going to agree with me.)

    So...yes, we can and will make a great 1v1 banlist, and use it for this tournament, but I'm certain that we will not be able to establish this list for general 1v1 play, especially online. At least...not without your help. It would be a tremendous boon for all of the people who enjoy 1v1 if the rules committee would be so kind as to post another, "1v1 Banned List" below the multiplayer banlist in the "Rules Announcements" forum. This way, we could start directing friends and online opponents to that list, and, seeing it here, I have complete confidence that in a short time everybody playing 1v1 would start using the more optimal banlist.

    Please don't stand in the way of progress: people aren't going to stop playing 1v1 EDH, so I believe that a banlist will have to get adjusted eventually. It would just be a massively faster and cleaner changeover, and thus tremendously helpful, if the moderators of this site would be willing to help that changeover go smoothly. Again, none of this will have any impact on multiplayer EDH.

    For reference, here is the current French 1v1 banlist. I don't agree with all of it, but I agree with most of it. They also play with 30 starting life to encourage aggro a little bit more, which I've also tested. I support that change as well, though it's less important than the banlist issue.

    o Amulet of Quoz
    o Bronze Tablet
    o Contract from Below
    o Darkpact
    o Demonic Attorney
    o Jeweled Bird
    o Rebirth
    o Tempest Efreet
    o Timmerian Fiends

    o Chaos Orb
    o Falling Star

    o Ancestral Recall
    o Black Lotus
    o Crucible of Worlds
    o Gifts Ungiven
    o Grindstone
    o Karakas
    o Mana Crypt
    o Mind Twist
    o Mindslaver
    o Mox Emerald
    o Mox Jet
    o Mox Pearl
    o Mox Ruby
    o Mox Sapphire
    o Necropotence
    o Protean Hulk
    o Riftsweeper
    o Sensei's Divining Top
    o Sol Ring
    o Staff of Domination
    o Sundering Titan
    o Time Walk
    o Time Vault
    o Tinker
    o Upheaval
    o Yawgmoth's Bargain


    If people are interested, I'll post our little rules committee's suggested 1v1 banlist in a few days, once we've agreed on just what it will be.

    If you support the formation of a separate, 1v1 banlist, please say so in this thread. If you hate the whole idea of 1v1 EDH (and I know there are some of you out there), please don't clutter up this thread--this isn't relevant to you.
  • #24
    Quote from Khymera
    I've tried this before. I made a thread in the Rules Discussion section of the official forums last September, called "Petition: Please officially sanction a separate, 1v1 banlist." I don't think I'm allowed to post a link here, but I'm sure you can find it if you go looking for it.

    The thread went to 5 pages (mostly people agreeing with me or multiplayers purists telling me that 1v1 shouldn't exist in a multiplayer casual format, despite me carefully explaining that I'm not interested in having that discussion here). It never got an official response from any member of the rules committee though (typical...).

    I still completely agree that the French banlist needs to be posted on the official site. All the arguments I made last year are even more valid now.

    Here's my initial post, for easy reference:

    You can post a link to a relevant discussion. We just frown on links to sites selling stuff and advertising.

    I merged the 2 threads discussion banlist changes and stickied them. Use this thread for discussion of changes to the "official" EDH banlist. MWS tournament banlist discussion still belongs in its own thread.
    Last edited by KPDaly16: 3/14/2010 7:13:53 PM
    DCI Level 2 Judge
  • #25
    I don't like seeing this thread stickied, or falknir's post merged with it, because Syphon's suggestions at the start are really not well-informed (sorry, but it's true). A ban list designed around the cards that you, personally, find "horrible to play against" is doomed to failure--it's far too subjective. I strongly disagree with almost all of your choices, except the obvious ones which are already on every ban list anyways (like Yawgmoth's Bargain).

    I'm all for 1v1 banned list discussion (which is basically what this thread is for, I think), but the starting point for such a discussion should be the French ban list, which I posted above. It's been used for years in France, and really works quite well. I won't claim that it's perfect, but I've tested it extensively and found it to be very well balanced for 1v1 play.

    We should be starting with that established list and taking the discussion from there.
    Last edited by Khymera: 3/15/2010 9:54:09 AM
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