Often I'll also reach for a bounce land with something like Weathered Wayfarer to cover two "turns'" worth of mana if I'm topdecking lands and worried about getting to a certain mana count.
5 years after this thread was created the answer is still the same: know your playgroup and be ready to lose some tempo if you do play them and they get stripped.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
Not the biggest risk. For myself I'll usually strip mine a bounceland early game because of tempo swing. Late game there are many better targets (usually) and dropping them back 2 mana has very little effect unless they are manascrewed. They are usually a tier two target so you should feel safe about running a few.
Id rather run basics than bounces because of how many destroy land effects go wild in my group.
But even if there wasn't any lands that enter two just seen bad. The 2 for 1 is just another reason to not
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Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Only the most budget of budget decks should be running these for the mana fixing, but there are tons of good non-basics (these included) that earn their place in other ways. The bounce lands are great for helping you not miss land drops while still moving your board state forwards if you're willing to pay the cost in tempo. Some examples:
Do you run untap effects like Time Spiral or Mind Over Matter?
Do you play a deck that draws a lot and want to hit more land drops with less lands in the deck so your hand won't be flooded with them?
Do you have Seismic Assault and you'd like to play a land and still have a shock in hand?
Do you want to keep Land Tax or Oath of Lieges active longer?
Do you want to keep a big hand size for Teferi's Puzzlebox or Mindmoil?
Do you want to have 8 cards in hand on turn 2 so that you can dump something you want in your graveyard?
Am I just describing my own experience with them in Zedruu? Yes, yes I am.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
It depends on your deck, honestly. I say this as the resident LD-happy player in my own LGS (Duel-Commander).
- Do you play G? This is the colour best equipped to handle upfront tempo cost as it's the colour that houses the most "play an extra land" effects that mitigate their "drawback".
- Do you play a lot of untap mechanisms? Garruk Wildspeaker is the first choice that springs to mind, but Teferi, Temporal Archmage can get some mileage out of his -1. Even Stone-Seeder Hierophant is pretty strong in conjunction with karoos.
- Do you play Land Tax, or similar cards such as Gift of Estates? Karoo lands allow you to "cheat" on these numbers to get an extra trigger or three.
- Do you have access to Oracle of Mul Daya? Yes this ties into point #1, but it's important enough that it demands repeating here.
- Lastly, can your deck benefit from the pseudo card advantage these can generate, without losing efficiency because you stopped to play this?
- Do you play any lands with a relevant ETB ability (Bojuka Bog being the most common, but followed by Halimar Depths or even Teetering Peaks)? Would your deck benefit from reusing such abilities a non-zero percent of the time?
The most important rule of all - take care of them, and they can take care of you. Don't run an over-abundance of them (looking at you, resident 5c player who shoved all ten into a deck and complained because you couldn't make your fourth land drop until turn 8) and then complain your turns are slow and clunky; like no sh*t look at the jank you're putting down. Many mono-colour decks can play one of these, and instead of going -1 for playing a land, they've attained a +0 (card parity) for doing so, and can ensure a land drop the following turn. Certain colours, such as mono-W in particular, stand to gain from (the original) Karoo the most, for a number of reasons; 1) Because it is the most starved on card advantage engines than any other colour, and 2) it also has the highest number of [relevant] cards that do stuff pending land counts/opposing land counts. And lastly, don't count these as two lands in deckbuilding just because they make two mana; they are not two lands - they are one. You'd be surprised how relevant this "rule" is in determining a karoo land's usefulness.
Additional reasons that bounce lands can be useful: Knight of the Reliquary (to defend lands targeted for destruction or draw an extra land if your hand is empty) Thespian's Stage Thawing Glaciers
Unlimited landfall (let it bounce itself)
And lastly, don't count these as two lands in deckbuilding just because they make two mana; they are not two lands - they are one. You'd be surprised how relevant this "rule" is in determining a karoo land's usefulness.
Oh yeah, definitely. I count maintaining land drops amongst their positive aspects, but you definitely only count them as one land. I play 34 lands in Zedruu and I have all 3 of the ravnica bounce lands that I can play. I do not pretend to have 37 lands in the deck because of them, I'm quite aware that I play 34 lands. I count on my extra draw to feed me the lands I need while running relatively few for my style of play. If you destroy my Howling Mine friends, chances are high that I get mana screwed.
It doesn't count as 2 lands, but if you're running a not too fast paced deck with a strategically low land count (which I'll admit, if it wasn't me doing it, I'd question the deckbuilding as being naive) they are really good lands to draw.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I currently run two in my Rubinia Soulsinger enchantments deck because of how good they are with Exploration and Burgeoning. I'm might even go up to three, though I also might cut them for slow fetches. I like having one karoo land in most of my decks so I can tutor one up if I want the +1 mana.
I think in 2 colour decks, the risk isn't as high. Granted if it's destroyed then you're still out two lands, but if you're running 3+ colours then you're mana fixing is more suspect to being disrupted and an easier target then the guy that has the colours fixed and can drop either colour 1 or colour 2 after you've taken it out. I think it also plays to the mindset of your table, if people feel that they have to be competitive, and target lands (unless that's the deck theme - shout out mono red) then it's not a bad idea to have an Azorius Chancery instead of 11 Plains.
My favorite use of bouncelands is to force myself to discard at EOT on turn 2 in reanimator.
I mostly play duel, so I don't run them otherwise, because they are a big target for blowing up in 1v1.
They're only a big target if you drop them that early and murder your tempo. As the LD guy, I love love love hitting them with a t3 Sinkhole. Hitting them with a t5/t6 Sinkhole? not so much - good play, but not the backbreaking play it'd seem.
The bounce lands are an absolute house in Derevi, empyrial tactician. The weird thing is, I actually WANT people to waste their strip mine on it. Derevi's curve is very low, so the whole deck operates with only say 4 lands or so. Cards like land equilibrium make it very difficult for people to keep playing if they don't have derevi's curve. The bounce lands are a distraction while gaea's cradle, thawing glaciers and thespian's stage + dark depths wreck them. Unless they're playing mass land destruction targeting the bounce land isn't a good idea against derevi. Heck, even then Derevi thrives through mass land destruction so even thats a bad idea.
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Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
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I would rank them behind fetches, shocks, filters, checks, and possibly even painlands.
Not everyone can do a Tundra, or even shocks/fetches, but I'd definitely put in Adarkar Wastes and Glacial Fortress before Azorius Chancery.
Long-story short: no, even in most budget builds.
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But even if there wasn't any lands that enter two just seen bad. The 2 for 1 is just another reason to not
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
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Do you run untap effects like Time Spiral or Mind Over Matter?
Do you play a deck that draws a lot and want to hit more land drops with less lands in the deck so your hand won't be flooded with them?
Do you have Seismic Assault and you'd like to play a land and still have a shock in hand?
Do you want to keep Land Tax or Oath of Lieges active longer?
Do you want to keep a big hand size for Teferi's Puzzlebox or Mindmoil?
Do you want to have 8 cards in hand on turn 2 so that you can dump something you want in your graveyard?
Am I just describing my own experience with them in Zedruu? Yes, yes I am.
- Do you play G? This is the colour best equipped to handle upfront tempo cost as it's the colour that houses the most "play an extra land" effects that mitigate their "drawback".
- Do you play a lot of untap mechanisms? Garruk Wildspeaker is the first choice that springs to mind, but Teferi, Temporal Archmage can get some mileage out of his -1. Even Stone-Seeder Hierophant is pretty strong in conjunction with karoos.
- Do you play Land Tax, or similar cards such as Gift of Estates? Karoo lands allow you to "cheat" on these numbers to get an extra trigger or three.
- Do you have access to Oracle of Mul Daya? Yes this ties into point #1, but it's important enough that it demands repeating here.
- Lastly, can your deck benefit from the pseudo card advantage these can generate, without losing efficiency because you stopped to play this?
- Do you play any lands with a relevant ETB ability (Bojuka Bog being the most common, but followed by Halimar Depths or even Teetering Peaks)? Would your deck benefit from reusing such abilities a non-zero percent of the time?
The most important rule of all - take care of them, and they can take care of you. Don't run an over-abundance of them (looking at you, resident 5c player who shoved all ten into a deck and complained because you couldn't make your fourth land drop until turn 8) and then complain your turns are slow and clunky; like no sh*t look at the jank you're putting down. Many mono-colour decks can play one of these, and instead of going -1 for playing a land, they've attained a +0 (card parity) for doing so, and can ensure a land drop the following turn. Certain colours, such as mono-W in particular, stand to gain from (the original) Karoo the most, for a number of reasons; 1) Because it is the most starved on card advantage engines than any other colour, and 2) it also has the highest number of [relevant] cards that do stuff pending land counts/opposing land counts. And lastly, don't count these as two lands in deckbuilding just because they make two mana; they are not two lands - they are one. You'd be surprised how relevant this "rule" is in determining a karoo land's usefulness.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Knight of the Reliquary (to defend lands targeted for destruction or draw an extra land if your hand is empty)
Thespian's Stage
Thawing Glaciers
Unlimited landfall (let it bounce itself)
Oh yeah, definitely. I count maintaining land drops amongst their positive aspects, but you definitely only count them as one land. I play 34 lands in Zedruu and I have all 3 of the ravnica bounce lands that I can play. I do not pretend to have 37 lands in the deck because of them, I'm quite aware that I play 34 lands. I count on my extra draw to feed me the lands I need while running relatively few for my style of play. If you destroy my Howling Mine friends, chances are high that I get mana screwed.
It doesn't count as 2 lands, but if you're running a not too fast paced deck with a strategically low land count (which I'll admit, if it wasn't me doing it, I'd question the deckbuilding as being naive) they are really good lands to draw.
I mostly play duel, so I don't run them otherwise, because they are a big target for blowing up in 1v1.
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They're only a big target if you drop them that early and murder your tempo. As the LD guy, I love love love hitting them with a t3 Sinkhole. Hitting them with a t5/t6 Sinkhole? not so much - good play, but not the backbreaking play it'd seem.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
L. E. G. I. T.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Otherwise, no. Or in the case of 1v1, hell no. Too many ways to ruin your rhythm.
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