This is something that I have noticed time and again on these boards and elsewhere: the hatred of Control Magic and similar effects like Confiscate, Blatant Thievery, Spelljack, Commandeer, etc. The question for me is why? To me most of the time it seems like irrational hatred, so spill it Control-Magic haters, as a long time lover of these effects I really need to know the reason/reasons why.
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The reason for it is because (in my opinion) it's more irritating than a kill spell, or exile, or any kind of removal. If you kill a creature, it's gone, but you might be able to get it back. Same for exiled, or to your hand, or countered, or whatever. But Control effects not only 'remove' your creature in the sense that you don't have it, but now your opponent has it. I mean, they aren't undercosted or anything, it just sucks to have your best creature simultaneously taken from you, and put on your opponent's field. Plus, nothing says "ouch" like getting killed by your own General.
The reason for it is because (in my opinion) it's more irritating than a kill spell, or exile, or any kind of removal. If you kill a creature, it's gone, but you might be able to get it back. Same for exiled, or to your hand, or countered, or whatever. But Control effects not only 'remove' your creature in the sense that you don't have it, but now your opponent has it. I mean, they aren't undercosted or anything, it just sucks to have your best creature simultaneously taken from you, and put on your opponent's field. Plus, nothing says "ouch" like getting killed by your own General.
Well, I can see where you are coming from if your general gets stolen, but I can't see it too much for other creatures. Its very difficult to get a creature back from exile (pull from eternity is it..., seriously if we are going for one card silver bullets to strategies than that green beast from TS block that returns everything to its owners control at the beginning of your upkeep stops control magic effects in the same way) but exiling guys doesn't tend to carry the same hate that control magic does.
So I don't think its the removal aspect of it so much, especially because you can usually kill your guy and nab it back for graveyard shenanigans. It could be that your opponent gets a good creature while removing one of yours, but there isn't any hate for cards like Angel of Despair unless I have been missing something.
Hmmmm its something for me to think about though.
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But as for your question, it lies in the realm of human nature. If someone is given/earns something, they feel they have a right to it. If someone destroys that thing, it's gone. If the 'someone' doesn't brag about it, it really ends there. What's done is done. The 'control,' though, is a symbol of the one that did get rid of your 'thing,' and it leaves them 'red-handed,' so to speak. Also, remember that in a multiplayer game, the victim usually feels some level of shame and embarrassment deriving from the fact that his and his 'friends'' issue stems from what should have been 'their' (his) card.
While factually, Angel of Despair and stealing a 5/5 flyer are very similar, the latter plays a much bigger role on the emotions. And emotions and facts are usually like oil and water.
But on a less psychological note, there is the concept of tempo advantage to deal with. Stolen creatures are rarely simply 5/5 flyers (usually much better), and Mind Control is 3UU, while Angel of Despair is 3WWBB.
Its because people don't build their decks correctly, and it is much easier to whine about it than to tune their decks so they can handle those kinds of threats.
Seriously, I cut control magic, and I am close to cutting treachery from my mono-blue deck simply because a 4-5 mana sorcery-speed kill spell that will almost never resolve (stonecloaker, miren, the moaning well, claws of gix, the list goes on) is too weak in my edh environment.
If they're whining because you're doing stuff in the most interactive zone in the game (the in play zone), tell them to suck it in and pack some tech.
@Slivortal OMG Thank you for naming the Brooding Saurian for me, the fact that I couldn't remember the name was killing me. Also, thanks for your very well thought out post on the psychological reasons behind it, as its a little different from how I view it (I like stealing effects more than removal because it further complicates the board state, while removal just makes nothing happen which isn't nearly as fun IMHO, so my thought process is the exact opposite of yours, probably why I wasn't getting it from the psychological angle.)
But on a less psychological note, there is the concept of tempo advantage to deal with. Stolen creatures are rarely simply 5/5 flyers (usually much better), and Mind Control is 3UU, while Angel of Despair is 3WWBB.
I see where both of you are coming from though, mainly because of the things you steal can be quite varied, as well as the stuff you use to steal it. For instance Treachery can typically steal something for 0 or negative mana, depending on the lands you use, creating a big tempo boost. On the other hand Spelljack costs quite a bit though and very frequently I use it to steal something that is less than its cost.
I am kind of sad though if the reason is really just kind of a guttural response that defies logic though. I really like control magic cards and I would love to figure out a secret to playing them that doesn't piss people off.
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I am kind of sad though if the reason is really just kind of a guttural response that defies logic though. I really like control magic cards and I would love to figure out a secret to playing them that doesn't piss people off.
Counterspells fall into the same camp: they provoke emotions which really don't make any sense if you stop and think about it. And different people tend to get pissed off by different things. I don't mind counterspells or control magic at all but a fast burn deck (99% of the time Red) makes me upset because the game ends in 3-5 short turns.
Control Magic tends to have an "insult to injury" feel to them. Not only are you taking their best cards away from them, your using those cards against them. Your correct in that when someone plays control magic on a Tombstalker it has the same effect as someone playing Angel of Despair and destroying said demon.
However, in the latter situation with the angel, your opponent is beating you with HIS angel. When your opponent plays control magic, the opponent is beating you with YOUR demon. We could argue that its not the Tombstalker but the control magic that is winning the game, but the emotional response is to see something that is rightfully MINE being used against ME.
Now a question; when you talk about control magic, do you simply means blue "theft cards" like control magic or do you include black's reanimation as well? Playing terror and than beacon of unrest on a baneslayer angel gets said angel on my side of the table as easily as a mind control.
Theft effects aren't just annoying. They're simply devastating when the right creature is stolen.
For instance, let's consider what happens when I cast Captain Sisay. If she gets countered, or dies to Removal Spell X, I just get a little vexed and place her back in the command zone. I can cast her in a few more turns (maybe by next turn if I had other initial acceleration before casting her) and I'm not too adversely affected.
Now let's say I cast Sisay. An opponent then uses a theft spell and takes control of her. Instead of having the inconvenience of recasting Sisay from the command zone like in the last paragraph, I know have my own general's ability turned against me... and anyone who knows Sisay knows she has a very powerful ability. Which usually then results in the blue player tutoring for Tolarian Academy, Academy Ruins, Mindslaver, Memnarch... well you get the idea.
I don't think it's irrational, at least not when control magic effects are directed at generals.
The whole essence of EDH is that you always have your general available. Because of this, many of the more powerful EDH decks rely heavily on their generals, packing their deck with synergistic effects that work much better with the general in play.
Control magic effects are one of the most effective ways to make a general inaccessible, and having an inaccessible general just kills some decks. I hate seeing these effects played against me because they tend to make it much harder for me to win. Simple as that.
@Gilrad. I know they are pretty easy to get rid of. I mean by any stretch of logic you should be able to get rid of something I use Blatant Thievery on if your own deck can handle itself. Compared to more cut throat cards they are also weak because they are sorceries and they tend to target permanents (though Commandeer and Spelljack are options) which also makes them weak against many combos. That being said I don't want to just tell my friends off, I mean they are my friends and we are playing magic to have fun. I have fun by playing these cards but I am trying to not kill the fun for my friends by doing it, which is one of the reasons I made this thread, to try to understand the reason behind the hate and see if there was anything to do to come to a nice compromise.
Now a question; when you talk about control magic, do you simply means blue "theft cards" like control magic or do you include black's reanimation as well? Playing terror and than beacon of unrest on a baneslayer angel gets said angel on my side of the table as easily as a mind control.
I haven't noticed the same illogical hatred towards reanimation that I have for control magic type effects, but if you have then feel free to add conversation about this to the thread, they would likely have the same root. If you haven't seen a hatred towards it, then it is likely the same as people hate it when there creature is countered but are fine when it gets doombladed as soon as it enters play.
Also at the people that hate it when there general is controlled I know that its usually up around the same level as hinder as not letting someone play their general (although in my opinion its less powerful because you can only use tutors to get your general back if it is put on the bottom of your library, where you can use tutors to tutor up removal, or just play plane old removal on your general to get it back) and in this case I can see it being hated because it abuses the rules of the format in the same way that hinder does.
Since it is pretty easy for me to see why people hate it on their general, lets just talk about when they are used on other cards from here on out.
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I love it when people play control magic effects on something other than my general, because that's one more control magic effect that won't be targeting my general.
Reanimation and spelljack effects are very different from control magic effects. Control magic affects the in-play zone--the single zone with the most interaction in the game, period. Reanimation affects the graveyard, in which most smart players would run a couple silver bullets (like relic of progenitus or scrabbling claws), and so weakening that zone takes a little bit of interaction.
But Spelljack effects operate exclusively on the stack, a zone in which other than blue, other colors tend to have narrow or weak cards that interact at that level, leaving it as a sort of trump card when used against any color but blue.
This logic extends to counterspells; the frustration players feel when their spells are countered comes from the fact that you just answered their spell with something they have no (and likely would never be able to have) control over.
The only EDH decks i've built so far have been GRW with an emphasis on G. I don't think Control Magic is any better or worse than other strategies, but it does generate the biggest reaction to having your plan foiled in such a way that puts you at a disadvantage.
I am one of those "irrational" people as some of you would say. I have a strong hate of blue "permission" aspect in the game.
For starters you get to pack your deck with 10-15 answers to any question asked. These are all virtually the same cards with varying costs. They all counter a spell. I know its a stretch to say 10-15 functional reprints as they are far from direct clones but i'm sure you get the idea. I have to run a deck of 1 of's with the random occasional functional reprit (ancient craving / ambition's cost). The icing on this layer of the cake... your "answers" also rarely cost more than my "question" and as someone above said can't be responded to because this all happens on the stack. This is what i call the wall of bull ☺☺☺☺.
Now once i have faught through this wall of bull ☺☺☺☺, and finally get some threats onto the board, not only have i lost a crap ton of tempo (really early counter spells can resemble time walk in their effectivness) but Now i'm facing off against control magic or bounce. Bounce is only annoying relative to the wall of bull ☺☺☺☺ described above. And as such most people who have coped with attempting to get a spell in, have coped with this mechanic. Control Magic however isn't simply permission, your not just telling me no, now your taking the effort i put in to get this threat through and claiming it as your own. And to simply say its just a matter of handling your own creature, no... its far worse than that. Now its handling your own creature backed by a wall of bull ☺☺☺☺.
So in the end its annoying as ☺☺☺☺ to play against permission in and of itself, but theft spells are the salt in the wound. You spend 4 to 6 mana to take whatever you want (sometimes 0) its as simple as tapping down some islands, but i on the other hand felt like i had to wrestle a bear to get anything meaningful through, often sacrificing other relavent and powerful spells as counter bait, only for you to take it for yourself. I know that black has probably the best answers to control in the form of heavy hand disruption... however the good disruption just doesn't hold up its value in multiplayer like counter/control magic. Its far more indirect than a counter spell and tends to require high volumes of fire to get the job done. Hymn is still to me the best form of disruption, but it is often a horrible top deck in the late game, and there is no way for me to guarantee with only 1 real copy of the spell to get it at a relavent time... but... any counter spell retains its weight when backed by 10-15 other spells that read "counter target spell"
This is why people dont like to play against these effects. If you want to play control magic at a rate that your friends wont stop playing with you or wont be irritated or what have you... Pick up a general that maybe has a couple other colors. Build a deck where the blue element is only about stealing things. As long as people dont have to eat through a wall of bull ☺☺☺☺ they dont tend to mind the theft, it becomes an interesting work around and challenge.
This isn't about permission, although if you only hate control magic when it is backed up by counterspells is that the case? Personally I don't run alot of counterspells because of how much some of my friends hate it combined with the fact that I think countermagic is pretty weak in EDH (In the Sen Triplets deck that I have themed around stealing effects I actually only run 4 counterspells, 2 of which are Desertion and Spelljack to stay on theme.)
Does anyone else feel that the control magic effects are bad only when they are backed by counterspells?
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Theres a big difference between things like Reanimation/187 dudes than theft cards ...
Reanimation stays even and fair because theres no built in card advantage on either side.
Playing 187 dudes is a person taking thier own card advantage (usually).
Theft effects are you taking card advantage away from your opponent since on most cases the person is required to kill thier own creature/card (-2) just cuz of your 1 theft effect (-1).
so basicly aryakin ...you're saying ppl can't like blue! Because if you take away counter and stealing from blue what is blue left with? I had this cousin who loved green and was always saying that blue should be dropped ..to him magic could be all good without blue.
For me this is a shortsight...anyways ..i'm going off topic. The only thing you can do Blue warlok is talk to your playgroup about it. It's always about comunication and compromises.
I think there is a reason blue has changed so dramatically lately with only eternal formats retaining the same blatant power level of old school blue. Counters have increased in cost, instant draw is few and far between (typically being over costed) and well frankly i havn't seen too much control magic. I'm just saying... if these things were as fair as alot of blue players like to claim when they defend their play style... it would still be seeing print.
it is in my opinion, blue is so tame now because they realize draw go was just too good. The pendulum will swing for control (not just blue) and blue will eventually get "good" cards but your not going to see the rediculous power of old blue draw go style cards being printed over again.
Just for the record i dont hate blue. Hell blue holds my favorite creature in magic, as well as my favorite mechanic in magic. (Vesuvan Doppelganger) I also feel like drawing cards, and bounce effects are very good pieces of the blue color pie. However it seems that everyone who plays blue feels like they have to pack in every single counter spell they own into decks. So i dont blame the color for the way alot of people choose to play.
I think that the OP made a very good point about the emotional impact of some blue-themed spells.
You can run permission all day but you will still get hated out / beaten down by vanilla 3/3's in multiplayer because of a combination of things.
1- People don't like getting their spells countered. Having a card that reads "UU: answer ANYTHING" tickles people the wrong way. This will lead to people beating on you for no more reason then the fact that you run blue.
2- YOU can't answer everything. Sure you can counter the bombs but ultimately things will slip through the cracks and you will get blown away faster then you can say "capsize with buyback"
3- People will pre-emptively hate on you if they know you are running counters or any other kind of control magic.
With a blue EDH deck alot of games can end up being 2 v 1, 3 v 1, etc. etc. etc.
And no matter how powerful your deck is you can't beat several determined and annoyed players.
In a 1 on 1 situation, by all means play strong permission and wipe the floor with your opponent. But in multiplayer, it is almost a fait accomplit that you cannot run controls/counters without getting hated on.
Aryakin pretty much sums up my thoughts. I'll be honest, I do have a Blue deck I play for EDH, but it's esper colours(Sharuum the Hegemon). I think I run a total of...like, 4 counters. Just enough to deal with stuff that my deck doesn't have an answer to otherwise(the original intent of counterspells in the first place). Hell, my counters aren't even "traditional" or annoying ones, I use...Power Sink, Last Word, Hinder, and Rewind...and to a totally different purpose, Trickbind. All the counters are about 4 cmc anyway.
Of course, what do I know, I play mass-LD main deck(but I have the decency to tell people before the game starts that I run mass-LD). If they don't like mass-LD, I just play my aggro beats Stonebrow, Krosan Hero deck. Hell, I actually finding myself playing Stonebrow more often tan not because it's proving to be fun as hell <_<.
It seems the conversation has drifted away from Control Magic effects in particular and into more of if you are running blue your deck has to be annoying because blue is a rather annoying color because of counterspells.
Is this the general consensus? That the underlying hate for blue mechanics in general is because counterspells exist to strengthen them? Or is it the inherent card advantage in stealing effects, the emotional response involved of keeping their guy on the field under your control instead of forgotten in a graveyard, or something else entirely?
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I think the consensus is that there is a simple emotional response, tied to both counterspells and theft mechanics that go beyond a cold, calculated, rational reaction.
Control Magic/Theft mechanics are certainly more effective then straight out kill, especially in EDH. But the reaction to them goes beyond merely being in line with their increased effectiveness.
Counterspells have the same psychological effect. From Tom Lapille's column on Jan 8th:
We've done a lot of research, both in focus testing and in the field, and we have learned that people really hate it when their spells get countered. They take it as a personal affront: my opponent kept me from doing what I want to do. That's a terrible feeling. Mysteriously, those people do not feel nearly as bad when they cast a creature that immediately dies to a Lightning Bolt or a Doom Blade. They feel like their card actually did something, even though it really did just as little as the creature that got hit with an Essence Scatter. This may not make logical sense, but it is consistent with all of our observations.
This was an important realization, but there was a second realization as well. Magic developers, who by nature are top-level players who have played hundreds of matches at high-level events, are just as susceptible to this illogical, emotional response as our players. We hate it when our spells get countered too, and we are also much happier when our Craw Wurms get Doom Bladed than we are when they get Essence Scattered. This was an uncomfortable realization, because it makes no sense and we recognize it, but we are human too.
There's some good stuff there, but it's unsatisfying on the whole as to the irrational hatred. But there's definitly an irrational hatred for seeing your own plan turned against you.
The problem with control magic as well is that you are sometimes forced to kill your own creature after it is controlled. For example, if someone steals my Kiki-Jiki, I'll have to use a removal of my own before that player starts doing shenanigans with Palinchron or something.
Whats the difference between stealing the Kiki-Jiki and the opponent playing his own? Is it just the +1 card advantage that irks you?
EDIT: Also, @Sharpened that was a good read, and I think my argument about control magic being better (read: more fun) than removal is very similar to his argument for Bribery. He likes it because it will always get some huge monstrosity into play, which makes games more fun. My argument for control magic effects being more fun (that no one seems to really agree with... heh) is that it keeps these big monstrosities in play rather than just booting them to the graveyard.
I mean, which is more fun for you? An EDH game with nothing on the field, or an EDH game with a bunch of guys in play that aren't under the control of the guys that cast them?
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Whats the difference between stealing the Kiki-Jiki and the opponent playing his own? Is it just the +1 card advantage that irks you?
It has mainly to do with the massive tempo swing. If your opponent plays his own Kiki-Jiki, that's beneficial for him and it doesn't directly affect you (at least until he starts doing shenanigans with him). If he steals Kiki-Jiki from you, you lost one of your best creatures while your opponent simultaneously gained it.
To put it in an analogy (especially since I'm a biology major), the former is an example of commensalism. The latter is an example of parasitism.
It has mainly to do with the massive tempo swing. If your opponent plays his own Kiki-Jiki, that's beneficial for him and it doesn't directly affect you (at least until he starts doing shenanigans with him). If he steals Kiki-Jiki from you, you lost one of your best creatures while your opponent simultaneously gained it.
To put it in an analogy (especially since I'm a biology major), the former is an example of commensalism. The latter is an example of parasitism.
What I was asking about is that it seemed that killing the creature was the bad bit and I wanted to know why. To see if it was the just the fact that it was good for his opponent or if it was something more emotional because he had to kill his own guy off.
I'm just trying to figure out if people dislike these for power reasons or if its some kind of irrational hatred if there is any way around it. If it is power reasons its kind of bizzare, I mean, Mirari's Wake is a powerful card, but I have never seen anyone get mad at that. I have seen people get angry at top tier powerful cards such as Yawgmoths Will and Tolarian Academy, because folks believe you shouldn't run them in a casual format. I just have a hard time believing that Confiscate for instance is on the same level of power of Yawgwin.
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Well, I can see where you are coming from if your general gets stolen, but I can't see it too much for other creatures. Its very difficult to get a creature back from exile (pull from eternity is it..., seriously if we are going for one card silver bullets to strategies than that green beast from TS block that returns everything to its owners control at the beginning of your upkeep stops control magic effects in the same way) but exiling guys doesn't tend to carry the same hate that control magic does.
So I don't think its the removal aspect of it so much, especially because you can usually kill your guy and nab it back for graveyard shenanigans. It could be that your opponent gets a good creature while removing one of yours, but there isn't any hate for cards like Angel of Despair unless I have been missing something.
Hmmmm its something for me to think about though.
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But as for your question, it lies in the realm of human nature. If someone is given/earns something, they feel they have a right to it. If someone destroys that thing, it's gone. If the 'someone' doesn't brag about it, it really ends there. What's done is done. The 'control,' though, is a symbol of the one that did get rid of your 'thing,' and it leaves them 'red-handed,' so to speak. Also, remember that in a multiplayer game, the victim usually feels some level of shame and embarrassment deriving from the fact that his and his 'friends'' issue stems from what should have been 'their' (his) card.
While factually, Angel of Despair and stealing a 5/5 flyer are very similar, the latter plays a much bigger role on the emotions. And emotions and facts are usually like oil and water.
But on a less psychological note, there is the concept of tempo advantage to deal with. Stolen creatures are rarely simply 5/5 flyers (usually much better), and Mind Control is 3UU, while Angel of Despair is 3WWBB.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Seriously, I cut control magic, and I am close to cutting treachery from my mono-blue deck simply because a 4-5 mana sorcery-speed kill spell that will almost never resolve (stonecloaker, miren, the moaning well, claws of gix, the list goes on) is too weak in my edh environment.
If they're whining because you're doing stuff in the most interactive zone in the game (the in play zone), tell them to suck it in and pack some tech.
Also I chuckled a little when I read this:
I see where both of you are coming from though, mainly because of the things you steal can be quite varied, as well as the stuff you use to steal it. For instance Treachery can typically steal something for 0 or negative mana, depending on the lands you use, creating a big tempo boost. On the other hand Spelljack costs quite a bit though and very frequently I use it to steal something that is less than its cost.
I am kind of sad though if the reason is really just kind of a guttural response that defies logic though. I really like control magic cards and I would love to figure out a secret to playing them that doesn't piss people off.
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Counterspells fall into the same camp: they provoke emotions which really don't make any sense if you stop and think about it. And different people tend to get pissed off by different things. I don't mind counterspells or control magic at all but a fast burn deck (99% of the time Red) makes me upset because the game ends in 3-5 short turns.
Control Magic tends to have an "insult to injury" feel to them. Not only are you taking their best cards away from them, your using those cards against them. Your correct in that when someone plays control magic on a Tombstalker it has the same effect as someone playing Angel of Despair and destroying said demon.
However, in the latter situation with the angel, your opponent is beating you with HIS angel. When your opponent plays control magic, the opponent is beating you with YOUR demon. We could argue that its not the Tombstalker but the control magic that is winning the game, but the emotional response is to see something that is rightfully MINE being used against ME.
Now a question; when you talk about control magic, do you simply means blue "theft cards" like control magic or do you include black's reanimation as well? Playing terror and than beacon of unrest on a baneslayer angel gets said angel on my side of the table as easily as a mind control.
For instance, let's consider what happens when I cast Captain Sisay. If she gets countered, or dies to Removal Spell X, I just get a little vexed and place her back in the command zone. I can cast her in a few more turns (maybe by next turn if I had other initial acceleration before casting her) and I'm not too adversely affected.
Now let's say I cast Sisay. An opponent then uses a theft spell and takes control of her. Instead of having the inconvenience of recasting Sisay from the command zone like in the last paragraph, I know have my own general's ability turned against me... and anyone who knows Sisay knows she has a very powerful ability. Which usually then results in the blue player tutoring for Tolarian Academy, Academy Ruins, Mindslaver, Memnarch... well you get the idea.
The whole essence of EDH is that you always have your general available. Because of this, many of the more powerful EDH decks rely heavily on their generals, packing their deck with synergistic effects that work much better with the general in play.
Control magic effects are one of the most effective ways to make a general inaccessible, and having an inaccessible general just kills some decks. I hate seeing these effects played against me because they tend to make it much harder for me to win. Simple as that.
Also @ Darth Bunny
I haven't noticed the same illogical hatred towards reanimation that I have for control magic type effects, but if you have then feel free to add conversation about this to the thread, they would likely have the same root. If you haven't seen a hatred towards it, then it is likely the same as people hate it when there creature is countered but are fine when it gets doombladed as soon as it enters play.
Also at the people that hate it when there general is controlled I know that its usually up around the same level as hinder as not letting someone play their general (although in my opinion its less powerful because you can only use tutors to get your general back if it is put on the bottom of your library, where you can use tutors to tutor up removal, or just play plane old removal on your general to get it back) and in this case I can see it being hated because it abuses the rules of the format in the same way that hinder does.
Since it is pretty easy for me to see why people hate it on their general, lets just talk about when they are used on other cards from here on out.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
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But Spelljack effects operate exclusively on the stack, a zone in which other than blue, other colors tend to have narrow or weak cards that interact at that level, leaving it as a sort of trump card when used against any color but blue.
This logic extends to counterspells; the frustration players feel when their spells are countered comes from the fact that you just answered their spell with something they have no (and likely would never be able to have) control over.
My suggestion? Let them in on the anti-control magic tech: high market and miren, the moaning well (with expedition map), helm of possession, and if they're running white, stonecloaker. Those are some of the best cards you can run that make use of dudes that get dealt with.
GVorinclexG -- RGodoR -- BSheoldredB -- UTalrandU -- WDarienW -- XKarnX -- WRBKaaliaBRW -- RUGMaelstrom WandererGUR
For starters you get to pack your deck with 10-15 answers to any question asked. These are all virtually the same cards with varying costs. They all counter a spell. I know its a stretch to say 10-15 functional reprints as they are far from direct clones but i'm sure you get the idea. I have to run a deck of 1 of's with the random occasional functional reprit (ancient craving / ambition's cost). The icing on this layer of the cake... your "answers" also rarely cost more than my "question" and as someone above said can't be responded to because this all happens on the stack. This is what i call the wall of bull ☺☺☺☺.
Now once i have faught through this wall of bull ☺☺☺☺, and finally get some threats onto the board, not only have i lost a crap ton of tempo (really early counter spells can resemble time walk in their effectivness) but Now i'm facing off against control magic or bounce. Bounce is only annoying relative to the wall of bull ☺☺☺☺ described above. And as such most people who have coped with attempting to get a spell in, have coped with this mechanic. Control Magic however isn't simply permission, your not just telling me no, now your taking the effort i put in to get this threat through and claiming it as your own. And to simply say its just a matter of handling your own creature, no... its far worse than that. Now its handling your own creature backed by a wall of bull ☺☺☺☺.
So in the end its annoying as ☺☺☺☺ to play against permission in and of itself, but theft spells are the salt in the wound. You spend 4 to 6 mana to take whatever you want (sometimes 0) its as simple as tapping down some islands, but i on the other hand felt like i had to wrestle a bear to get anything meaningful through, often sacrificing other relavent and powerful spells as counter bait, only for you to take it for yourself. I know that black has probably the best answers to control in the form of heavy hand disruption... however the good disruption just doesn't hold up its value in multiplayer like counter/control magic. Its far more indirect than a counter spell and tends to require high volumes of fire to get the job done. Hymn is still to me the best form of disruption, but it is often a horrible top deck in the late game, and there is no way for me to guarantee with only 1 real copy of the spell to get it at a relavent time... but... any counter spell retains its weight when backed by 10-15 other spells that read "counter target spell"
This is why people dont like to play against these effects. If you want to play control magic at a rate that your friends wont stop playing with you or wont be irritated or what have you... Pick up a general that maybe has a couple other colors. Build a deck where the blue element is only about stealing things. As long as people dont have to eat through a wall of bull ☺☺☺☺ they dont tend to mind the theft, it becomes an interesting work around and challenge.
Does anyone else feel that the control magic effects are bad only when they are backed by counterspells?
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
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Reanimation stays even and fair because theres no built in card advantage on either side.
Playing 187 dudes is a person taking thier own card advantage (usually).
Theft effects are you taking card advantage away from your opponent since on most cases the person is required to kill thier own creature/card (-2) just cuz of your 1 theft effect (-1).
I think there is a reason blue has changed so dramatically lately with only eternal formats retaining the same blatant power level of old school blue. Counters have increased in cost, instant draw is few and far between (typically being over costed) and well frankly i havn't seen too much control magic. I'm just saying... if these things were as fair as alot of blue players like to claim when they defend their play style... it would still be seeing print.
Just for the record i dont hate blue. Hell blue holds my favorite creature in magic, as well as my favorite mechanic in magic. (Vesuvan Doppelganger) I also feel like drawing cards, and bounce effects are very good pieces of the blue color pie. However it seems that everyone who plays blue feels like they have to pack in every single counter spell they own into decks. So i dont blame the color for the way alot of people choose to play.
You can run permission all day but you will still get hated out / beaten down by vanilla 3/3's in multiplayer because of a combination of things.
1- People don't like getting their spells countered. Having a card that reads "UU: answer ANYTHING" tickles people the wrong way. This will lead to people beating on you for no more reason then the fact that you run blue.
2- YOU can't answer everything. Sure you can counter the bombs but ultimately things will slip through the cracks and you will get blown away faster then you can say "capsize with buyback"
3- People will pre-emptively hate on you if they know you are running counters or any other kind of control magic.
With a blue EDH deck alot of games can end up being 2 v 1, 3 v 1, etc. etc. etc.
And no matter how powerful your deck is you can't beat several determined and annoyed players.
In a 1 on 1 situation, by all means play strong permission and wipe the floor with your opponent. But in multiplayer, it is almost a fait accomplit that you cannot run controls/counters without getting hated on.
Of course, what do I know, I play mass-LD main deck(but I have the decency to tell people before the game starts that I run mass-LD). If they don't like mass-LD, I just play my aggro beats Stonebrow, Krosan Hero deck. Hell, I actually finding myself playing Stonebrow more often tan not because it's proving to be fun as hell <_<.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Is this the general consensus? That the underlying hate for blue mechanics in general is because counterspells exist to strengthen them? Or is it the inherent card advantage in stealing effects, the emotional response involved of keeping their guy on the field under your control instead of forgotten in a graveyard, or something else entirely?
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
Control Magic/Theft mechanics are certainly more effective then straight out kill, especially in EDH. But the reaction to them goes beyond merely being in line with their increased effectiveness.
Counterspells have the same psychological effect. From Tom Lapille's column on Jan 8th:
The best I can find on discussions of theft goes back to Randy Beuhler's column on Bribery from 2002. http://http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb44
There's some good stuff there, but it's unsatisfying on the whole as to the irrational hatred. But there's definitly an irrational hatred for seeing your own plan turned against you.
Whats the difference between stealing the Kiki-Jiki and the opponent playing his own? Is it just the +1 card advantage that irks you?
EDIT: Also, @Sharpened that was a good read, and I think my argument about control magic being better (read: more fun) than removal is very similar to his argument for Bribery. He likes it because it will always get some huge monstrosity into play, which makes games more fun. My argument for control magic effects being more fun (that no one seems to really agree with... heh) is that it keeps these big monstrosities in play rather than just booting them to the graveyard.
I mean, which is more fun for you? An EDH game with nothing on the field, or an EDH game with a bunch of guys in play that aren't under the control of the guys that cast them?
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
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It has mainly to do with the massive tempo swing. If your opponent plays his own Kiki-Jiki, that's beneficial for him and it doesn't directly affect you (at least until he starts doing shenanigans with him). If he steals Kiki-Jiki from you, you lost one of your best creatures while your opponent simultaneously gained it.
To put it in an analogy (especially since I'm a biology major), the former is an example of commensalism. The latter is an example of parasitism.
What I was asking about is that it seemed that killing the creature was the bad bit and I wanted to know why. To see if it was the just the fact that it was good for his opponent or if it was something more emotional because he had to kill his own guy off.
I'm just trying to figure out if people dislike these for power reasons or if its some kind of irrational hatred if there is any way around it. If it is power reasons its kind of bizzare, I mean, Mirari's Wake is a powerful card, but I have never seen anyone get mad at that. I have seen people get angry at top tier powerful cards such as Yawgmoths Will and Tolarian Academy, because folks believe you shouldn't run them in a casual format. I just have a hard time believing that Confiscate for instance is on the same level of power of Yawgwin.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]