So we're on the same page about Exsanguinate: good in multiplayer. My own deck (still gotta find that and post it) is tuned for multiplayer, so I didn't even think about optimizing this one for one-on-one.
Re: Infest, maybe it's not the best choice. Again, that's a pretty ad hoc decklist that I've never tested. Thing is, sometimes you don't draw into Pestilence and need a sweeper early on. My meta is full of elf/goblin shenanigans so YMMV.
Re: spot removal, I prefer Diabolic Edict and friends. It takes care of the lone remaining baddie once you've swept the rest of someone's creatures with Pestilence. Sorts out untargetables too.
Re: spot removal, I prefer Diabolic Edict and friends. It takes care of the lone remaining baddie once you've swept the rest of someone's creatures with Pestilence. Sorts out untargetables too.
This is so true! I love using Geth's Verdict on the last unkillable fattie on the table after a wipe.
That's a really interesting combo with the rats! I don't think it would really be useful anywhere else though, as I can't have creatures that wouldn't be able to survive Pestilence without the help of the acolyte. That would be to unreliable. I'd be better off just running Death Speakers.
Trying to shoehorn Bloodchief Ascension into a Pestilence deck. Obermeir suggested Mindcrank, the following is my second draft. Basically it gives us an infinite win condition rather than hoping for a slow grind.
I also was working with a friend of mine on making it play a little smoother, as frequently I would get to turn 3 with nothing on the field. While this isn't necessarily instant death in multiplayer, I don't like it so I changed the deck up a little. The secret to getting Bloodchief Ascension working seems to be firing off 2 mana blasts on your opponent's turns, either during the blocking or end steps. By the time it gets back to you the counters should be filled and you can drop a mindcrank while blasting for 1. Any amount of damage works, as Mindcrank will put cards into the graveyard for Ascension.
ive got a casual pestilence multiplayer deck but i only pull it out when someone needs to be taught a lesson hah.. its completely uninteractive and not fun. ill try to remember the decklist
I'm a big fan of your Bloodcrank Combo. I think it's an excellent win condition for the deck.
Keep in mind Wall of Souls reads "combat damage". Damage dealt to it by Pestilence will not trigger it.
Steel Wall will be replaced by a new card from Khans, which has many more applications. It may be something to look at for your deck, although the flexible cost of the Steel Wall may be better in a BW list.
Be careful with Innocent Blood. It's an interesting card, especially in Multiplayer, but you have very few creatures, so sacrificing your own creatures is maybe not the best idea. You can also try Consuming Vapors, as it also has some excellent political power to it, but at a more awkward mana cost.
I will add Wall of Light, although I can't say I'm overly fond of it.
Darkest Hour doesn't seem to do much in your deck. Are you sure there aren't some cards missing, like Sphere of Grace?
I'm a big fan of your Bloodcrank Combo. I think it's an excellent win condition for the deck.
Keep in mind Wall of Souls reads "combat damage". Damage dealt to it by Pestilence will not trigger it.
Steel Wall will be replaced by a new card from Khans, which has many more applications. It may be something to look at for your deck, although the flexible cost of the Steel Wall may be better in a BW list.
Be careful with Innocent Blood. It's an interesting card, especially in Multiplayer, but you have very few creatures, so sacrificing your own creatures is maybe not the best idea. You can also try Consuming Vapors, as it also has some excellent political power to it, but at a more awkward mana cost.
Hi Obermeir,
Sorry about the late reply, I was out of town the last few days. Disowned Ancestor is a dramatic improvement over Steel Wall in my mind, as we are a slow deck and it may very well become a beast. Thanks for the recommendation!
Innocent Blood was meant to address the lack of low mana drops in the deck; hitting 3-4 creatures turn 1 sets back the clock. I will probably drop it for Geth's Verdict with the inclusion of Disowned Ancestor.
I totally did not notice that Wall of Souls does not work off of Pestilence. In which case I am dropping it too, I will just go double 1 mana drops to even the curve. Another thing I noticed is this deck could benefit from some of the unfair white cards, as we are going to win off a two piece combo. Wall of Shards is awesome for us, as we usually do not care if someone gains life. That having been said I suck at making multi-color decks so I leave that to someone else.
That's completely fine. You'll notice I'm only active during the weekends, as I am currently teaching in a high school in a town very far away, and their internet does not permit me to visit this site. I can only be here on weekends when I come home!
Your deck looks better every time you post!
I have one final suggestion. Since you are a combo-control deck, tutors would be really good for you. If your playgroup doesn't mind Vintage-restricted cards, you could remove a Pestilence and maybe a Mindcrank in order to add a Demonic Tutor and a Demonic Consultation. These two powerful cards are fairly easy to get a copy of, are not too expensive, and will allow your deck to either find the right card for the job (Withering Wisps, Verdict, your last piece of the combo, etc.). I've found 8 Pestilence effects to be too many, as copies in play are redundant. It does allow you to play more aggressively with your Pestilence, though.
Wow Demonic Consultation is beautiful. Instant speed means I can play it at the end of my opponent's turn and then drop the card on mine, and it is super cheap. I actually am thinking of running three, as I often find I have no turn 2 move of any relevance. It even lets me tutor for land if I am stuck at 2.
Both Demonic Consultation and Demonic Tutor are restricted. This may or may not be important for your playgroup. I would stick to one of each, but you can also find other tutors. Cards with Transmute can also serve as excellent tutors for very cheap.
Nice primer. I really like this deck type since it scales so well to multi-player games. However, you've definitely missed some of the better cards in the BG version. Since I started playing in 1995 the combination
has been something I wanted to build a deck around. For years the mana just wasn't there to make it work. Needing G and sometimes GG made it too tough to have enough Snow-Covered Swamps for Withering Wisps to be copies 5-8 of Pestilence. Fetchlands changed all that. Here's my list, which is somewhat biased toward older cards:
I've played this deck when I find myself in a meta-game of newbies for years now and it's been great. It's a reasonable balance of "fair deck" and "mondo combo." Pharika, God of Affliction is the piece I never knew was missing. It's so easy to wake her up in this deck she's basically always a 5/4 indestructible creature. Her strength in my deck makes me suspect that Athreos, God of Passage would be worthwhile in the WB version.
Thanks for you comments and your compliment! You touched on many of the reasons why I don't run some of the cards you do. While the Whirling Dervish is a great card, it it's the GG cost that kept it out of my deck. I will add it to the primer, however.
It would be possible to run Withering Wisps in BG versions, however, it will require a combination of fetches, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Dual Lands. As you can imagine, this is not a very accessible mana base for many players. Furthermore, running a full 8 Pestilence effects is typically not a good idea, as having multiples often equals dead cards in hand. Running 6 or 7 has been much better for me, and I think it would improve your decks' performance as well. Not using Withering Wisps and concentrating on Pestilence allows me to use better fixing options, like Magus of the Candelabra, who will essentially turn all my Green mana into black, as well as surviving a Pestilence trigger in order to get beefed up with Rite of Passage.
Using the Gods from Theros block in a multicoloured Pestilence deck creates an additional difficulty: You need to have the permanents to turn it into a creature, and a Pestilence deck typically wants to run cards with few mana-specific requirements. Devotion numbers are therefore harder to reach, because as much of the mana as possible should be black. If you have the guts (and the mana base) to run things like Whirling Dervish and Darkheart Sliver, all the more power to you. As for the actual usefulness of Gods in Pestilence, Pharika I would consider barely playable. Her "enchantment" ability is not at all relevant for the deck, and her body is sub-par, compared to what many other creatures in Green or Black could offer. Athreos, God of Passage, however, is much more relevant, and is definitely a decent option for WB decks running smaller creatures.
If you take a second look at my version of BG Pestilence, you'll notice that I use Rite of Passage. This turns all my creatures in Fungusaurs. This explains why I use Utopia Tree as ramp and fixing, as it also doubles as an excellent finisher later on, unlike Rampant Growth or Sakura-Tribe Elder. I want to maximize my threats. Every creature I play can end up finishing an opponent (expect the Redemptive Tree).
For you deck, I would consider running something other than Fungus Sliver. 8 copies of Fungusaur is enormous, and they crowd the 4-drop slot quite a bit, slowing down your deck. You can only include so many 4-mana 2/2s. Keep in mind they're extremely bad if you can't beef it up yourself.
I would think about cutting a few of those creatures and Wisps in order to add a bit of spot removal or Edits. I can't stress enough how Pestilence can't deal with everything, and you need to be prepared to see a creature it won't be able to kill.
EDIT: Expect an overhaul on many of the decks in the primer. I believe there is room for improvement in every list there (especially the Red one). Keep on an eye on this primer in the coming weeks!
It would be possible to run Withering Wisps in BG versions, however, it will require a combination of fetches, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Dual Lands. As you can imagine, this is not a very accessible mana base for many players.
True, but casual doesn't necessarily mean budget. This tension is eased a little bit by the reprinting of allied-color fetchlands and shocklands. There's also the possibility of not playing Whirling Dervish (the only GG card) and using Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds instead. I see where you're coming from, though.
Furthermore, running a full 8 Pestilence effects is typically not a good idea, as having multiples often equals dead cards in hand.
Multiples are only sort of dead since Pestilence has a way of killing its self when you need to sweep the board with it. Also, the deck does little to nothing without a Pestilence effect in play. I could definitely see going -2 Withering Wisps +1 Demonic Tutor +1 Demonic Consultation, though.
Using the Gods from Theros block in a multicoloured Pestilence deck creates an additional difficulty: You need to have the permanents to turn it into a creature, and a Pestilence deck typically wants to run cards with few mana-specific requirements.
Why does a deck that wants to be able to generate as much black mana as possible want to avoid running cards with lots of black mana symbols in their cost?
As for the actual usefulness of Gods in Pestilence, Pharika I would consider barely playable. Her "enchantment" ability is not at all relevant for the deck, and her body is sub-par, compared to what many other creatures in Green or Black could offer.
Pharika, God of Affliction's activated ability is very relevant. You get to sweep the board with a large number of Pestilence activations and then make a snake afterward. At end of turn Pestilence sees the snake and gets to stick around. Being able to hate on opponents' graveyards is also useful. The drawback of handing out 1-toughness creatures is pretty negligable in a Pestilence deck. And a 5/4 indestructible creature for 3 mana is "sub-par?"
If you take a second look at my version of BG Pestilence, you'll notice that I use Rite of Passage.
I saw it the first time around. Is the plan to just never activate Pestilence more than once per turn until Rite of Passage shows up? What happens if someone plays a 2-toughness creature?
For you deck, I would consider running something other than Fungus Sliver. 8 copies of Fungusaur is enormous, and they crowd the 4-drop slot quite a bit, slowing down your deck. You can only include so many 4-mana 2/2s. Keep in mind they're extremely bad if you can't beef it up yourself.
Mechanically, Fungus Sliver is way better than Fungusaur because it shares the ability with Darkheart Slivers. Also, multiples stack and do completely unfair things. You're right that the 4-drop slot is crowded and the only reason I haven't shaved Fungusaur down to 1 or 2 copies is that it's a totally sweet old card in a deck I only built to use totally sweet old cards. Finally, 2/2s for 4 are pretty bad if you have no way to hassle them. That's why I run so many Pestilence effects and Cuombajj Witches.
I can't stress enough how Pestilence can't deal with everything, and you need to be prepared to see a creature it won't be able to kill.
The deathtouch snakes from Pharika go a long way toward answering fatties that are out of Pestilence's reach. Non-creature artifacts and enchantments are the bigger problem, and I probably need to find some room for 2-3 copies of Maelstrom Pulse as a nice catch-all. Titania's Song is an awesome way to deal with artifacts but I think it's too narrow to be worth the slot.
Multiples are only sort of dead since Pestilence has a way of killing its self when you need to sweep the board with it. Also, the deck does little to nothing without a Pestilence effect in play. I could definitely see going -2 Withering Wisps +1 Demonic Tutor +1 Demonic Consultation, though.
+1 to the tutor suggestion. We run a very slow deck that can afford to play cheap tutors. We need the right cards at the right time, so why not? I don't know how many games I've played where I've either won or lost and had the same Pestilence and/or Withering Wisps in my hand for the last 7 turns because I had stabilized with one on the board. It should have been another card. 8 has just been too much.
Why does a deck that wants to be able to generate as much black mana as possible want to avoid running cards with lots of black mana symbols in their cost?
Because in a two-coloured deck that's hungry for Black mana, you want to devote as much of it to the namesake enchantment. Spending your Green mana as colourless mana in parts of Black spells allows you to save your Black mana to control the board. Running colour-heavy spells is therefore a disadvantage, as it restricts how you spend your mana.
Pharika, God of Affliction's activated ability is very relevant. You get to sweep the board with a large number of Pestilence activations and then make a snake afterward. At end of turn Pestilence sees the snake and gets to stick around. Being able to hate on opponents' graveyards is also useful. The drawback of handing out 1-toughness creatures is pretty negligable in a Pestilence deck. And a 5/4 indestructible creature for 3 mana is "sub-par?"
You'll have the GB necessary to do that? The way you paint the scenario, Pharika will never be a creature. Hence the inadequate body. It has nothing to do with the mana cost of the God, but rather the cost of making it a relevant creature. Why not just play a creature that will resist Pestilence, defend you and keep Pestilence around?
I saw it the first time around. Is the plan to just never activate Pestilence more than once per turn until Rite of Passage shows up? What happens if someone plays a 2-toughness creature?
The plan is to play intelligently. I don't mind losing a creature here and there. I can play Pestilence and control the board without having a creature of my own, too. With Rite of Passage, NONE of my creatures will die to Pestilence. Not only do they not die, but they become huge. I built my deck with Rite of Passage in mind, which explains why I have few pro-black creatures.
How's this for an ideal scenario:
Turn 1: S-C Forest, Magus of the Candelabra
Turn 2: S-C Swamp, Utopia Tree
Turn 3: S-C Swamp, Pestilence
Turn 4: S-C Forest, Play Rite of Passage, Sweep for two. I now have a 3/4 and a 2/4, ready to attack next turn on a potentially empty board.
In any case, aside from those two cards, everything else in my deck is very resistant to Pestilence. Tree of Redemption has been amazing. It allows one to keep on sweeping well into the late game with very little life gain. Aren't you afraid you'll tax your own life too much when fighting multiple opponents?
Mechanically, Fungus Sliver is way better than Fungusaur because it shares the ability with Darkheart Slivers. Also, multiples stack and do completely unfair things. You're right that the 4-drop slot is crowded and the only reason I haven't shaved Fungusaur down to 1 or 2 copies is that it's a totally sweet old card in a deck I only built to use totally sweet old cards. Finally, 2/2s for 4 are pretty bad if you have no way to hassle them. That's why I run so many Pestilence effects and Cuombajj Witches.
Fair enough for the sliver synergy and the stacking, I hadn't thought of that! Is Darkheart sliver basically only in there to beef up Devotion? He won't gain you more than 3-6 life per game (if any), and he doesn't interact particularly well with Pestilence. I included Plague Spitter mostly to get Fungusaur going without necessarily needing Pestilence, but I'm starting to wonder what I could include instead. I see you seem to run Cuombajj Witches for similar reasons. Both have their ups and downs.
The deathtouch snakes from Pharika go a long way toward answering fatties that are out of Pestilence's reach. Non-creature artifacts and enchantments are the bigger problem, and I probably need to find some room for 2-3 copies of Maelstrom Pulse as a nice catch-all. Titania's Song is an awesome way to deal with artifacts but I think it's too narrow to be worth the slot.
There are tons of great options in BG! Even if it doesn't deal with non-creatures, I've tested with Mercy Killing and found it quite good. There's still Beast Within that deals with everything and is dirt cheap. Pulse is great, though. For the sake of completion, something as banal as Putrefy does a very good job.
Because in a two-coloured deck that's hungry for Black mana, you want to devote as much of it to the namesake enchantment. Spending your Green mana as colourless mana in parts of Black spells allows you to save your Black mana to control the board. Running colour-heavy spells is therefore a disadvantage, as it restricts how you spend your mana.
I guess this just comes back to mana base. My mana is excellent; my green sources tap for black. This is not an issue for me. On the budget side of things, Whirling Dervish is probably unplayable and it definitely won't work if you plan to support Withering Wisps.
You'll have the GB necessary to do that? The way you paint the scenario, Pharika will never be a creature. Hence the inadequate body. It has nothing to do with the mana cost of the God, but rather the cost of making it a relevant creature. Why not just play a creature that will resist Pestilence, defend you and keep Pestilence around?
No, I won't have GB to do the snake trick 100% of the time. It's just another line of play. My list runs a ton of 2 cmc double-colored-mana-symbol creatures that are resistant/immune to Pestilence. Pharika, God of Affliction is a creature much of the time.
The plan is to play intelligently. I don't mind losing a creature here and there. I can play Pestilence and control the board without having a creature of my own, too. With Rite of Passage, NONE of my creatures will die to Pestilence. Not only do they not die, but they become huge. I built my deck with Rite of Passage in mind, which explains why I have few pro-black creatures.
Needing PestilenceandRite of Passage in play at the same time to operate at full steam is asking a lot of a deck with no tutors, no card draw, and no draw manipulation.
How's this for an ideal scenario:
Turn 1: S-C Forest, Magus of the Candelabra
Turn 2: S-C Swamp, Utopia Tree
Turn 3: S-C Swamp, Pestilence
Turn 4: S-C Forest, Play Rite of Passage, Sweep for two. I now have a 3/4 and a 2/4, ready to attack next turn on a potentially empty board.
Things often work out great in Magical Christmas Land.
Aren't you afraid you'll tax your own life too much when fighting multiple opponents?
Fair enough for the sliver synergy and the stacking, I hadn't thought of that! Is Darkheart sliver basically only in there to beef up Devotion? He won't gain you more than 3-6 life per game (if any), and he doesn't interact particularly well with Pestilence.
My list was pretty much as it is right now before Pharika got printed. It's almost unfathomable to me how perfectly she slots in since the deck had been worshiping her for years without even knowing it. I'll grant you that getting to GB devotion of 7 is not something any old list can do with regularity, but mine is accidentally set up to do it early and often. Life gain is something of an issue and originally Darkheart Sliver was in the deck as Bottle Gnomes 5-8. I didn't even notice that I was running two types of slivers until the first time I had them both on the battlefield! Maybe -1 Pharika, God of Affliction +1 Bottle Gnomes for old times' sake. Having redundant copies of a Legendary indestructible creature in hand isn't where this deck wants to be, after all.
There are tons of great [utility removal] options in BG! Even if it doesn't deal with non-creatures, I've tested with Mercy Killing and found it quite good. There's still Beast Within that deals with everything and is dirt cheap. Pulse is great, though. For the sake of completion, something as banal as Putrefy does a very good job.
I suggested Maelstrom Pulse just off the top of my head, but Beast Within is interesting. This deck is well set up to deal with the beast token and being an instant opens up the line of "kill your thing end of turn, untap, kill all 3/3's." This is good when you've already got a Pestilence effect on line and maybe even a resistant creature to keep it around. I feel like Maelstrom Pulse will do a better job of catching you up when you're behind and that's what I'd really want out of a utility slot like that. Putrefy seems like a perfectly acceptable budget alternative.
For my specific list I'm trying to play with an old-school combo that only works with a modern mana base. Thus, my card choices are heavily skewed toward older cards wherever possible. Your mileage may vary.
P.S.: It would be so good but super super greedy to run a Predator Ooze...
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
No, I won't have GB to do the snake trick 100% of the time. It's just another line of play. My list runs a ton of 2 cmc double-colored-mana-symbol creatures that are resistant/immune to Pestilence. Pharika, God of Affliction is a creature much of the time.
So, both of her functionalities are highly dependent on other cards you have. To have your 5/5 indestructible, you need at least 3 other permanents in play. If you have Pestilence, your snakes aren't doing as good a job as they could. Seems a bit awkward to use!
Needing PestilenceandRite of Passage in play at the same time to operate at full steam is asking a lot of a deck with no tutors, no card draw, and no draw manipulation.
The slow nature and stalling/sweeping capabilities tend to outweigh the lack of draw/manipulation. And once you play Rite, you're in business. The deck functions without Rite, but excels with it. Losing a Tree or a Magus is very little collateral damage when you're sweeping the board.
Things often work out great in Magical Christmas Land.
That's right, they are. I believe it's pertinent to know what your deck is capable of, so that you can outline lines of play and better analyse opening hands and possibilities. I'm all too aware of the probability behind Magic (find my work quoted in the Legacy Burn primer), but you need to know the limits of the deck to be able to work towards them. This often guides card choices as well, although without swearing by them. Ask yourself: What do I want my deck to do? Then build the deck with those goals in mind. The results will tend to be interesting.
My list was pretty much as it is right now before Pharika got printed. It's almost unfathomable to me how perfectly she slots in since the deck had been worshiping her for years without even knowing it. I'll grant you that getting to GB devotion of 7 is not something any old list can do with regularity, but mine is accidentally set up to do it early and often. Life gain is something of an issue and originally Darkheart Sliver was in the deck as Bottle Gnomes 5-8. I didn't even notice that I was running two types of slivers until the first time I had them both on the battlefield! Maybe -1 Pharika, God of Affliction +1 Bottle Gnomes for old times' sake. Having redundant copies of a Legendary indestructible creature in hand isn't where this deck wants to be, after all.
Your deck really is very devotion-heavy, perfect for a God to sneak in there and smash face. For the lifegain, I recommend Tree of Redemption. It fits incredibly well in the deck as a life-gainer and a fantastic blocker.
I suggested Maelstrom Pulse just off the top of my head, but Beast Within is interesting. This deck is well set up to deal with the beast token and being an instant opens up the line of "kill your thing end of turn, untap, kill all 3/3's." This is good when you've already got a Pestilence effect on line and maybe even a resistant creature to keep it around. I feel like Maelstrom Pulse will do a better job of catching you up when you're behind and that's what I'd really want out of a utility slot like that. Putrefy seems like a perfectly acceptable budget alternative.
Totally agreed, Pulse is the better answer. I just wanted to list a selection of removal to fit all budget brackets.
For my specific list I'm trying to play with an old-school combo that only works with a modern mana base. Thus, my card choices are heavily skewed toward older cards wherever possible. Your mileage may vary.
P.S.: It would be so good but super super greedy to run a Predator Ooze...
I would never use duals and fetches just to gear up a casual deck haha! Smoke 'em if you got 'em. Your reality is quite different from the average player, it can't be denied. One could make the mana just as smooth on a budget, but would have to forget about using Withering Wisps. It's already hard enough playing two colours with it, adding in a devotion theme is just... woa.
Predator Ooze is just pure greed, indeed. That's a stretch for just about anyone, even non-Pestilence two-colour decks. That awesome card will have to wait until a Green Pestilence is printed.
So, both of her functionalities are highly dependent on other cards you have.
As are Pestilence, Magus of the Candelabra, and Rite of Passage. This type of deck is trying to win by breaking the symmetry of an otherwise fair card, so yeah, the deck (my version and yours) has a lot of moving parts.
To have your 5/5 indestructible, you need at least 3 other permanents in play. If you have Pestilence, your snakes aren't doing as good a job as they could. Seems a bit awkward to use!
Not all that awkward when you consider the deck is 100% permanents. For the snakes, there's no need to throw them into the blender for no reason. If there's a huge dude out there who won't die to Pestilence, it's time for a snake and not pinging the board. The converse is also true.
Losing a Tree or a Magus is very little collateral damage when you're sweeping the board.
Losing an actual card is less awkward than losing a snake token?
I'm all too aware of the probability behind Magic (find my work quoted in the Legacy Burn primer), but you need to know the limits of the deck to be able to work towards them.
I didn't mean to imply that you're bad at math (in one of your earlier posts you mentioned that you're a high school teacher; I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you teach math or physics). As I said above, there's necessarily a lot of stuff going on in a symmetry breaking deck. Magus of the Candelabra doesn't do anything but wash mana without a Utopia Sprawl. Seems like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth would do a better job of that. You talk about Pharika, God of Affliction being bad because she needs 3 other permanents in play to be a creature. Rite of Passage only needs two other permanents in play to be useful, but one of those is a specific card; a card you can only play four of.
For the lifegain, I recommend Tree of Redemption. It fits incredibly well in the deck as a life-gainer and a fantastic blocker.
Tree is great in your deck(s) because it fits the curve. My four-drop spot is already pretty crowded. Plus, old cards > newer cards. What about Slagwurm Armor? It lets basically anything survive Pestilence forever and is a mondo-combo with tree.
I would never use duals and fetches just to gear up a casual deck haha! Smoke 'em if you got 'em. Your reality is quite different from the average player, it can't be denied. One could make the mana just as smooth on a budget, but would have to forget about using Withering Wisps.
I used to be a competative Vintage player, but then school. Nowadays all I have time for is EDH and other casual. The deck can be budgetized without losing too much, though. Without fetchlands and duallands all you really lose is Whirling Dervish and probably by extension Pharika. Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds can get a one-of Forest or as many Snow-Covered Swamps as you need. Dropping Withering Wisps opens up all sorts of budget options, most notably Jungle Hollow.
As are Pestilence, Magus of the Candelabra, and Rite of Passage. This type of deck is trying to win by breaking the symmetry of an otherwise fair card, so yeah, the deck (my version and yours) has a lot of moving parts.
Not all that awkward when you consider the deck is 100% permanents. For the snakes, there's no need to throw them into the blender for no reason. If there's a huge dude out there who won't die to Pestilence, it's time for a snake and not pinging the board. The converse is also true.
What I'm getting at is that when Pharika is making tokens, it's probably not a creature, and when it's not making tokens, she's probably just win-more. The two abilities just don't seem to complement what you're doing at the time where they're necessary. Maybe I'm wrong.
Losing an actual card is less awkward than losing a snake token?
The difference here is when it's done. I'm trying to say that when you're about to be horded by monsters, you don't really mind losing cards to save your skin.
I didn't mean to imply that you're bad at math (in one of your earlier posts you mentioned that you're a high school teacher; I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you teach math or physics). As I said above, there's necessarily a lot of stuff going on in a symmetry breaking deck. Magus of the Candelabra doesn't do anything but wash mana without a Utopia Sprawl. Seems like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth would do a better job of that. You talk about Pharika, God of Affliction being bad because she needs 3 other permanents in play to be a creature. Rite of Passage only needs two other permanents in play to be useful, but one of those is a specific card; a card you can only play four of.
I'm actually a music teacher! I'm just very passionate about math, particularly about probability. There are also many very interesting parallels to be made with music and math, especially in electronic music.
Magus makes a great Tomb impression, and doubles as a finisher with Rite of Passage. I want every creature I play to be a threat later in the game, so that I have very few dead draws. As you said, the deck is very dependent on having the right cards in play at the right time.
Tree is great in your deck(s) because it fits the curve. My four-drop spot is already pretty crowded. Plus, old cards > newer cards. What about Slagwurm Armor? It lets basically anything survive Pestilence forever and is a mondo-combo with tree.
I liked Slagwurm Armor when it came out. I always found the equip cost was a bit high, though. It combos really well with Tree though, I had not thought of that. Thanks!
I used to be a competative Vintage player, but then school. Nowadays all I have time for is EDH and other casual. The deck can be budgetized without losing too much, though. Without fetchlands and duallands all you really lose is Whirling Dervish and probably by extension Pharika. Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds can get a one-of Forest or as many Snow-Covered Swamps as you need. Dropping Withering Wisps opens up all sorts of budget options, most notably Jungle Hollow.
Absolutely. It helps that the central card is worth peanuts. Going back again to my Rite of Passage build, I included Thrashing Wumpus as another Pestilence effect with a body that could beef itself up. It also acts exactly like a Pestilence when you wipe the board with it; It kills itself much like Pestilence when it doesn't have creatures in play. Withering Wisps is nice, but causes many deck-building restrictions. It just shocked me overall how your deck was so colour intensive yet ran Wisps at the same time. It's very far from what I've ever seen. Thank you for explaining a lot of the card choices you made and how you see the deck!
That's a really interesting combo with the rats! I don't think it would really be useful anywhere else though, as I can't have creatures that wouldn't be able to survive Pestilence without the help of the acolyte. That would be to unreliable. I'd be better off just running Death Speakers.
with playing small green creatures because they get better with Rite of Passage.
What I'm getting at is that when Pharika is making tokens, it's probably not a creature, and when it's not making tokens, she's probably just win-more. The two abilities just don't seem to complement what you're doing at the time where they're necessary. Maybe I'm wrong.
Are you saying that if I have a board full of devotion then there won't be any fuel for making snakes, and conversely if there's lots of snake food then there's no devotion in play? The two modes of Pharika, being a creature and churning out snakes, are not mutually exclusive. And given how fat and resilient modern creatures are, especially the random rares and mythics which so often grace the kitchen table, Pharika isn't usually a win-more when she's a creature. She's usually a road block which threatens retaliation.
I'm trying to say that when you're about to be horded by monsters, you don't really mind losing cards to save your skin.
Trample notwithstanding, deathtouch snakes do a pretty good job of handling hoards of monsters that are out of Pestilence's reach.
I'm actually a music teacher!
Well good on ya, then. Far too many arts/liberal-arts people are needlessly scared of math.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
That's a really interesting combo with the rats! I don't think it would really be useful anywhere else though, as I can't have creatures that wouldn't be able to survive Pestilence without the help of the acolyte. That would be too unreliable. I'd be better off just running Death Speakers.
with playing small green creatures because they get better with Rite of Passage.
Obsidian Acolyte requires you to invest mana (white, to boot) in order to save your creatures. Rite of Passage requires only 3 mana (one of which being green), and will make your creatures immune to Pestilence damage, as well as making them huge. Finding a parallel between these two cards is a very big stretch of the imagination (especially considering the context in which they are used), in my opinion.
Are you saying that if I have a board full of devotion then there won't be any fuel for making snakes, and conversely if there's lots of snake food then there's no devotion in play? The two modes of Pharika, being a creature and churning out snakes, are not mutually exclusive. And given how fat and resilient modern creatures are, especially the random rares and mythics which so often grace the kitchen table, Pharika isn't usually a win-more when she's a creature. She's usually a road block which threatens retaliation.
Essentially, if you're churning out ophidia, it's because you're most likely defending yourself with them, which in my mind tells me you're probably in board wipe/ creature-less survival mode, which means you won't have more than 4 devotion on the table. When you have devotion, you have creatures in play, in which case the ability is probably not that useful. They're not mutually exclusive, but when you think about the context in which you would use them, they don't fit together in what this deck wants to do.
Trample notwithstanding, deathtouch snakes do a pretty good job of handling hoards of monsters that are out of Pestilence's reach.
Absolutely. you'd be hard-pressed to create enough snakes to block damage from a larger number of creatures (in which case, Pestilence would probably be a better bet, so that shouldn't be a problem).
Finding a parallel between [Obsidian Acolyte and Rite of Passage] is a very big stretch of the imagination (especially considering the context in which they are used), in my opinion.
They're certainly not comparable in terms of power level. Rite of Passage makes almost every creature a huge threat with Pestilence in play whereas Obsidian Acolyte only makes creatures passable with Pestilence in play. The parallel is that they both encourage running creatures which are otherwise vulnerable to Pestilence. Ramping into sweepers that kill your ramp just doesn't seem like where you want to be. If you want mana sources that double up as win conditions, I'd recommend manlands. To clarify, I have no beef with Rite of Passage -its synergy with Pestilence is undenyable- just with running small mana critters in this type of deck.
Essentially, if you're churning out ophidia, it's because you're most likely defending yourself with them, which in my mind tells me you're probably in board wipe/ creature-less survival mode, which means you won't have more than 4 devotion on the table. When you have devotion, you have creatures in play, in which case the ability is probably not that useful. They're not mutually exclusive, but when you think about the context in which you would use them, they don't fit together in what this deck wants to do.
If I'm making snakes defensively it's because wiping the board isn't an option either because Pestilence hasn't shown up yet or the creatures that need wiping have more toughness than I have mana. The features that really make Pharika, God of Affliction good in this deck are that she's on curve and resiliant to Pestilence. Being able to make snakes is just icing on the cake and honestly, I use that ability more often to keep Rescue from the Underworld in check. As for the devotion issue any way you slice it the main goal of this deck is to have an enchantment with two black mana symbols on it in play at all times. That's a good start right there (side benefit of giving life to redundant copies of Pestilence effects). The fact that my list has a dozen two-drops which each contribute two devotion to black/green means that Pharika will be able to turn sideways more often then not. Just like in Standard you can't just slot a god into any old deck and expect it to wake up, so if all your non-Pestilence permanents only pitch in one devotion each I wouldn't recommend Pharika (or Athreos, God of Passage for that matter).
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They're certainly not comparable in terms of power level. Rite of Passage makes almost every creature a huge threat with Pestilence in play whereas Obsidian Acolyte only makes creatures passable with Pestilence in play. The parallel is that they both encourage running creatures which are otherwise vulnerable to Pestilence. Ramping into sweepers that kill your ramp just doesn't seem like where you want to be. If you want mana sources that double up as win conditions, I'd recommend manlands. To clarify, I have no beef with Rite of Passage -its synergy with Pestilence is undenyable- just with running small mana critters in this type of deck.
The only time Obsidian Acolyte was only mentioned because of his synergy with Crypt Rats. What smaller creatures are worth protecting in White or Black? The cards I mentioned have many purposes. They ramp, fix mana, kill an opponent, chump block, etc. Not every card in the deck needs to be Pestilence-proof, especially considering Rite of Passage is also in there.
I'm curious as to what your opinion is on cards like Steel Wall or Wall of Hope. Their toughness is not incredibly high, and they can't attack. Yet, we see these cards very often in Pestilence decks.
If I'm making snakes defensively it's because wiping the board isn't an option either because Pestilence hasn't shown up yet or the creatures that need wiping have more toughness than I have mana. The features that really make Pharika, God of Affliction good in this deck are that she's on curve and resilient to Pestilence. Being able to make snakes is just icing on the cake and honestly, I use that ability more often to keep Rescue from the Underworld in check. As for the devotion issue any way you slice it the main goal of this deck is to have an enchantment with two black mana symbols on it in play at all times. That's a good start right there (side benefit of giving life to redundant copies of Pestilence effects). The fact that my list has a dozen two-drops which each contribute two devotion to black/green means that Pharika will be able to turn sideways more often then not. Just like in Standard you can't just slot a god into any old deck and expect it to wake up, so if all your non-Pestilence permanents only pitch in one devotion each I wouldn't recommend Pharika (or Athreos, God of Passage for that matter).
In those scenarios, making snakes seems inferior to just having removal, as it gives you more control in being proactive. (although an advantage would be that it encourages opponents to attack someone else in multiplayer scenarios) Being on curve is extremely important for Pestilence, indeed. As you stated, Pharika demands that you build around her devotion, which works in your version, but restricts your card choices heavily (permanents with double mana-symbols is pretty specific). I don't know if I would risk playing two Pestilences at the same time just for the devotion, unless I had yet another backup in hand.
On another note, I refurbished the Pyrohemia section of the Primer with more card choices and a brand new deck that isn't outdated! It's been working really well in 1v1, and I expect it to be very good in multiplayer!
I don't like Wall of Steel at all. It just doesn't add anything to the deck, unless your meta is full of Fleecemane Lions. Wall of Hope is different because of its ability. Looks really solid.
Re: Infest, maybe it's not the best choice. Again, that's a pretty ad hoc decklist that I've never tested. Thing is, sometimes you don't draw into Pestilence and need a sweeper early on. My meta is full of elf/goblin shenanigans so YMMV.
Re: spot removal, I prefer Diabolic Edict and friends. It takes care of the lone remaining baddie once you've swept the rest of someone's creatures with Pestilence. Sorts out untargetables too.
This is so true! I love using Geth's Verdict on the last unkillable fattie on the table after a wipe.
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3 Pestilence
4 Mindcrank
2 Darkest Hour
4 Withering Wisps
3 Circle of Affliction
2 Tribute to Hunger
4 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Steel Wall
2 Orzhov Euthanist
I also was working with a friend of mine on making it play a little smoother, as frequently I would get to turn 3 with nothing on the field. While this isn't necessarily instant death in multiplayer, I don't like it so I changed the deck up a little. The secret to getting Bloodchief Ascension working seems to be firing off 2 mana blasts on your opponent's turns, either during the blocking or end steps. By the time it gets back to you the counters should be filled and you can drop a mindcrank while blasting for 1. Any amount of damage works, as Mindcrank will put cards into the graveyard for Ascension.
4 Pestilence
4 Mindcrank
4 Withering Wisps
4 Innocent Blood
4 Cemetery Gate
4 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Steel Wall
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3 pestilence
4 withering wisps
3 darkest hour
3 wall of light (suprised this hasnt been mentioned in this primer)
4 cemetary gate
4 darksteel myr
4 pariah
4 disenchant
1 sol ring
1 demonic tutor
4 wall of hope
2 syphon soul
snow covered swamps
snow covered plains
urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
something like that
I'm a big fan of your Bloodcrank Combo. I think it's an excellent win condition for the deck.
Keep in mind Wall of Souls reads "combat damage". Damage dealt to it by Pestilence will not trigger it.
Steel Wall will be replaced by a new card from Khans, which has many more applications. It may be something to look at for your deck, although the flexible cost of the Steel Wall may be better in a BW list.
Be careful with Innocent Blood. It's an interesting card, especially in Multiplayer, but you have very few creatures, so sacrificing your own creatures is maybe not the best idea. You can also try Consuming Vapors, as it also has some excellent political power to it, but at a more awkward mana cost.
I will add Wall of Light, although I can't say I'm overly fond of it.
Darkest Hour doesn't seem to do much in your deck. Are you sure there aren't some cards missing, like Sphere of Grace?
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Hi Obermeir,
Sorry about the late reply, I was out of town the last few days. Disowned Ancestor is a dramatic improvement over Steel Wall in my mind, as we are a slow deck and it may very well become a beast. Thanks for the recommendation!
Innocent Blood was meant to address the lack of low mana drops in the deck; hitting 3-4 creatures turn 1 sets back the clock. I will probably drop it for Geth's Verdict with the inclusion of Disowned Ancestor.
I totally did not notice that Wall of Souls does not work off of Pestilence. In which case I am dropping it too, I will just go double 1 mana drops to even the curve. Another thing I noticed is this deck could benefit from some of the unfair white cards, as we are going to win off a two piece combo. Wall of Shards is awesome for us, as we usually do not care if someone gains life. That having been said I suck at making multi-color decks so I leave that to someone else.
4 Pestilence
4 Mindcrank
4 Withering Wisps
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Cemetery Gate
4 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Steel Wall
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Your deck looks better every time you post!
I have one final suggestion. Since you are a combo-control deck, tutors would be really good for you. If your playgroup doesn't mind Vintage-restricted cards, you could remove a Pestilence and maybe a Mindcrank in order to add a Demonic Tutor and a Demonic Consultation. These two powerful cards are fairly easy to get a copy of, are not too expensive, and will allow your deck to either find the right card for the job (Withering Wisps, Verdict, your last piece of the combo, etc.). I've found 8 Pestilence effects to be too many, as copies in play are redundant. It does allow you to play more aggressively with your Pestilence, though.
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3 Demonic Consultation
3 Pestilence
3 Mindcrank
4 Withering Wisps
3 Geth's Verdict
4 Cemetery Gate
4 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Steel Wall
Apparently it is restricted. :/ Okay I guess one Demonic Consultation and two Demonic Tutor?
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has been something I wanted to build a deck around. For years the mana just wasn't there to make it work. Needing G and sometimes GG made it too tough to have enough Snow-Covered Swamps for Withering Wisps to be copies 5-8 of Pestilence. Fetchlands changed all that. Here's my list, which is somewhat biased toward older cards:
4 Fungus Sliver
4 Whirling Dervish
4 Darkheart Sliver
4 Cuombajj Witches
4 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Withering Wisps
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
1 Forest
14 Snow-Covered Swamp
I've played this deck when I find myself in a meta-game of newbies for years now and it's been great. It's a reasonable balance of "fair deck" and "mondo combo." Pharika, God of Affliction is the piece I never knew was missing. It's so easy to wake her up in this deck she's basically always a 5/4 indestructible creature. Her strength in my deck makes me suspect that Athreos, God of Passage would be worthwhile in the WB version.
One last thing is that I think Utopia Tree is just straight up worse than Sakura-Tribe Elder or even Rampant Growth. Why bother with ramp that dies to Pestilence when you could use ramp that can activate Withering Wisps?
Thanks for you comments and your compliment! You touched on many of the reasons why I don't run some of the cards you do. While the Whirling Dervish is a great card, it it's the GG cost that kept it out of my deck. I will add it to the primer, however.
It would be possible to run Withering Wisps in BG versions, however, it will require a combination of fetches, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Dual Lands. As you can imagine, this is not a very accessible mana base for many players. Furthermore, running a full 8 Pestilence effects is typically not a good idea, as having multiples often equals dead cards in hand. Running 6 or 7 has been much better for me, and I think it would improve your decks' performance as well. Not using Withering Wisps and concentrating on Pestilence allows me to use better fixing options, like Magus of the Candelabra, who will essentially turn all my Green mana into black, as well as surviving a Pestilence trigger in order to get beefed up with Rite of Passage.
Using the Gods from Theros block in a multicoloured Pestilence deck creates an additional difficulty: You need to have the permanents to turn it into a creature, and a Pestilence deck typically wants to run cards with few mana-specific requirements. Devotion numbers are therefore harder to reach, because as much of the mana as possible should be black. If you have the guts (and the mana base) to run things like Whirling Dervish and Darkheart Sliver, all the more power to you. As for the actual usefulness of Gods in Pestilence, Pharika I would consider barely playable. Her "enchantment" ability is not at all relevant for the deck, and her body is sub-par, compared to what many other creatures in Green or Black could offer. Athreos, God of Passage, however, is much more relevant, and is definitely a decent option for WB decks running smaller creatures.
If you take a second look at my version of BG Pestilence, you'll notice that I use Rite of Passage. This turns all my creatures in Fungusaurs. This explains why I use Utopia Tree as ramp and fixing, as it also doubles as an excellent finisher later on, unlike Rampant Growth or Sakura-Tribe Elder. I want to maximize my threats. Every creature I play can end up finishing an opponent (expect the Redemptive Tree).
For you deck, I would consider running something other than Fungus Sliver. 8 copies of Fungusaur is enormous, and they crowd the 4-drop slot quite a bit, slowing down your deck. You can only include so many 4-mana 2/2s. Keep in mind they're extremely bad if you can't beef it up yourself.
I would think about cutting a few of those creatures and Wisps in order to add a bit of spot removal or Edits. I can't stress enough how Pestilence can't deal with everything, and you need to be prepared to see a creature it won't be able to kill.
EDIT: Expect an overhaul on many of the decks in the primer. I believe there is room for improvement in every list there (especially the Red one). Keep on an eye on this primer in the coming weeks!
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Also I think I may need to experiment with exquisite blood as a more control oriented tactic. It does a lot to reverse our life loss.
Edit: Unless "loses life" does not work with damage. Sometimes that rule gives me insanity damage.
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True, but casual doesn't necessarily mean budget. This tension is eased a little bit by the reprinting of allied-color fetchlands and shocklands. There's also the possibility of not playing Whirling Dervish (the only GG card) and using Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds instead. I see where you're coming from, though.
Multiples are only sort of dead since Pestilence has a way of killing its self when you need to sweep the board with it. Also, the deck does little to nothing without a Pestilence effect in play. I could definitely see going -2 Withering Wisps +1 Demonic Tutor +1 Demonic Consultation, though.
Why does a deck that wants to be able to generate as much black mana as possible want to avoid running cards with lots of black mana symbols in their cost?
Pharika, God of Affliction's activated ability is very relevant. You get to sweep the board with a large number of Pestilence activations and then make a snake afterward. At end of turn Pestilence sees the snake and gets to stick around. Being able to hate on opponents' graveyards is also useful. The drawback of handing out 1-toughness creatures is pretty negligable in a Pestilence deck. And a 5/4 indestructible creature for 3 mana is "sub-par?"
I saw it the first time around. Is the plan to just never activate Pestilence more than once per turn until Rite of Passage shows up? What happens if someone plays a 2-toughness creature?
Mechanically, Fungus Sliver is way better than Fungusaur because it shares the ability with Darkheart Slivers. Also, multiples stack and do completely unfair things. You're right that the 4-drop slot is crowded and the only reason I haven't shaved Fungusaur down to 1 or 2 copies is that it's a totally sweet old card in a deck I only built to use totally sweet old cards. Finally, 2/2s for 4 are pretty bad if you have no way to hassle them. That's why I run so many Pestilence effects and Cuombajj Witches.
The deathtouch snakes from Pharika go a long way toward answering fatties that are out of Pestilence's reach. Non-creature artifacts and enchantments are the bigger problem, and I probably need to find some room for 2-3 copies of Maelstrom Pulse as a nice catch-all. Titania's Song is an awesome way to deal with artifacts but I think it's too narrow to be worth the slot.
+1 to the tutor suggestion. We run a very slow deck that can afford to play cheap tutors. We need the right cards at the right time, so why not? I don't know how many games I've played where I've either won or lost and had the same Pestilence and/or Withering Wisps in my hand for the last 7 turns because I had stabilized with one on the board. It should have been another card. 8 has just been too much.
Because in a two-coloured deck that's hungry for Black mana, you want to devote as much of it to the namesake enchantment. Spending your Green mana as colourless mana in parts of Black spells allows you to save your Black mana to control the board. Running colour-heavy spells is therefore a disadvantage, as it restricts how you spend your mana.
You'll have the GB necessary to do that? The way you paint the scenario, Pharika will never be a creature. Hence the inadequate body. It has nothing to do with the mana cost of the God, but rather the cost of making it a relevant creature. Why not just play a creature that will resist Pestilence, defend you and keep Pestilence around?
The plan is to play intelligently. I don't mind losing a creature here and there. I can play Pestilence and control the board without having a creature of my own, too. With Rite of Passage, NONE of my creatures will die to Pestilence. Not only do they not die, but they become huge. I built my deck with Rite of Passage in mind, which explains why I have few pro-black creatures.
How's this for an ideal scenario:
Turn 1: S-C Forest, Magus of the Candelabra
Turn 2: S-C Swamp, Utopia Tree
Turn 3: S-C Swamp, Pestilence
Turn 4: S-C Forest, Play Rite of Passage, Sweep for two. I now have a 3/4 and a 2/4, ready to attack next turn on a potentially empty board.
In any case, aside from those two cards, everything else in my deck is very resistant to Pestilence. Tree of Redemption has been amazing. It allows one to keep on sweeping well into the late game with very little life gain. Aren't you afraid you'll tax your own life too much when fighting multiple opponents?
Fair enough for the sliver synergy and the stacking, I hadn't thought of that! Is Darkheart sliver basically only in there to beef up Devotion? He won't gain you more than 3-6 life per game (if any), and he doesn't interact particularly well with Pestilence. I included Plague Spitter mostly to get Fungusaur going without necessarily needing Pestilence, but I'm starting to wonder what I could include instead. I see you seem to run Cuombajj Witches for similar reasons. Both have their ups and downs.
There are tons of great options in BG! Even if it doesn't deal with non-creatures, I've tested with Mercy Killing and found it quite good. There's still Beast Within that deals with everything and is dirt cheap. Pulse is great, though. For the sake of completion, something as banal as Putrefy does a very good job.
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I guess this just comes back to mana base. My mana is excellent; my green sources tap for black. This is not an issue for me. On the budget side of things, Whirling Dervish is probably unplayable and it definitely won't work if you plan to support Withering Wisps.
No, I won't have GB to do the snake trick 100% of the time. It's just another line of play. My list runs a ton of 2 cmc double-colored-mana-symbol creatures that are resistant/immune to Pestilence. Pharika, God of Affliction is a creature much of the time.
Needing Pestilence and Rite of Passage in play at the same time to operate at full steam is asking a lot of a deck with no tutors, no card draw, and no draw manipulation.
Things often work out great in Magical Christmas Land.
My list was pretty much as it is right now before Pharika got printed. It's almost unfathomable to me how perfectly she slots in since the deck had been worshiping her for years without even knowing it. I'll grant you that getting to GB devotion of 7 is not something any old list can do with regularity, but mine is accidentally set up to do it early and often. Life gain is something of an issue and originally Darkheart Sliver was in the deck as Bottle Gnomes 5-8. I didn't even notice that I was running two types of slivers until the first time I had them both on the battlefield! Maybe -1 Pharika, God of Affliction +1 Bottle Gnomes for old times' sake. Having redundant copies of a Legendary indestructible creature in hand isn't where this deck wants to be, after all.
I suggested Maelstrom Pulse just off the top of my head, but Beast Within is interesting. This deck is well set up to deal with the beast token and being an instant opens up the line of "kill your thing end of turn, untap, kill all 3/3's." This is good when you've already got a Pestilence effect on line and maybe even a resistant creature to keep it around. I feel like Maelstrom Pulse will do a better job of catching you up when you're behind and that's what I'd really want out of a utility slot like that. Putrefy seems like a perfectly acceptable budget alternative.
For my specific list I'm trying to play with an old-school combo that only works with a modern mana base. Thus, my card choices are heavily skewed toward older cards wherever possible. Your mileage may vary.
P.S.: It would be so good but super super greedy to run a Predator Ooze...
So, both of her functionalities are highly dependent on other cards you have. To have your 5/5 indestructible, you need at least 3 other permanents in play. If you have Pestilence, your snakes aren't doing as good a job as they could. Seems a bit awkward to use!
The slow nature and stalling/sweeping capabilities tend to outweigh the lack of draw/manipulation. And once you play Rite, you're in business. The deck functions without Rite, but excels with it. Losing a Tree or a Magus is very little collateral damage when you're sweeping the board.
That's right, they are. I believe it's pertinent to know what your deck is capable of, so that you can outline lines of play and better analyse opening hands and possibilities. I'm all too aware of the probability behind Magic (find my work quoted in the Legacy Burn primer), but you need to know the limits of the deck to be able to work towards them. This often guides card choices as well, although without swearing by them. Ask yourself: What do I want my deck to do? Then build the deck with those goals in mind. The results will tend to be interesting.
Your deck really is very devotion-heavy, perfect for a God to sneak in there and smash face. For the lifegain, I recommend Tree of Redemption. It fits incredibly well in the deck as a life-gainer and a fantastic blocker.
Totally agreed, Pulse is the better answer. I just wanted to list a selection of removal to fit all budget brackets.
I would never use duals and fetches just to gear up a casual deck haha! Smoke 'em if you got 'em. Your reality is quite different from the average player, it can't be denied. One could make the mana just as smooth on a budget, but would have to forget about using Withering Wisps. It's already hard enough playing two colours with it, adding in a devotion theme is just... woa.
Predator Ooze is just pure greed, indeed. That's a stretch for just about anyone, even non-Pestilence two-colour decks. That awesome card will have to wait until a Green Pestilence is printed.
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As are Pestilence, Magus of the Candelabra, and Rite of Passage. This type of deck is trying to win by breaking the symmetry of an otherwise fair card, so yeah, the deck (my version and yours) has a lot of moving parts.
Not all that awkward when you consider the deck is 100% permanents. For the snakes, there's no need to throw them into the blender for no reason. If there's a huge dude out there who won't die to Pestilence, it's time for a snake and not pinging the board. The converse is also true.
Losing an actual card is less awkward than losing a snake token?
I didn't mean to imply that you're bad at math (in one of your earlier posts you mentioned that you're a high school teacher; I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you teach math or physics). As I said above, there's necessarily a lot of stuff going on in a symmetry breaking deck. Magus of the Candelabra doesn't do anything but wash mana without a Utopia Sprawl. Seems like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth would do a better job of that. You talk about Pharika, God of Affliction being bad because she needs 3 other permanents in play to be a creature. Rite of Passage only needs two other permanents in play to be useful, but one of those is a specific card; a card you can only play four of.
Tree is great in your deck(s) because it fits the curve. My four-drop spot is already pretty crowded. Plus, old cards > newer cards. What about Slagwurm Armor? It lets basically anything survive Pestilence forever and is a mondo-combo with tree.
I used to be a competative Vintage player, but then school. Nowadays all I have time for is EDH and other casual. The deck can be budgetized without losing too much, though. Without fetchlands and duallands all you really lose is Whirling Dervish and probably by extension Pharika. Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds can get a one-of Forest or as many Snow-Covered Swamps as you need. Dropping Withering Wisps opens up all sorts of budget options, most notably Jungle Hollow.
Yeah, Predator Ooze ~ pigs on bikes...
What I'm getting at is that when Pharika is making tokens, it's probably not a creature, and when it's not making tokens, she's probably just win-more. The two abilities just don't seem to complement what you're doing at the time where they're necessary. Maybe I'm wrong.
The difference here is when it's done. I'm trying to say that when you're about to be horded by monsters, you don't really mind losing cards to save your skin.
I'm actually a music teacher! I'm just very passionate about math, particularly about probability. There are also many very interesting parallels to be made with music and math, especially in electronic music.
Magus makes a great Tomb impression, and doubles as a finisher with Rite of Passage. I want every creature I play to be a threat later in the game, so that I have very few dead draws. As you said, the deck is very dependent on having the right cards in play at the right time.
I liked Slagwurm Armor when it came out. I always found the equip cost was a bit high, though. It combos really well with Tree though, I had not thought of that. Thanks!
Absolutely. It helps that the central card is worth peanuts. Going back again to my Rite of Passage build, I included Thrashing Wumpus as another Pestilence effect with a body that could beef itself up. It also acts exactly like a Pestilence when you wipe the board with it; It kills itself much like Pestilence when it doesn't have creatures in play. Withering Wisps is nice, but causes many deck-building restrictions. It just shocked me overall how your deck was so colour intensive yet ran Wisps at the same time. It's very far from what I've ever seen. Thank you for explaining a lot of the card choices you made and how you see the deck!
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with playing small green creatures because they get better with Rite of Passage.
Are you saying that if I have a board full of devotion then there won't be any fuel for making snakes, and conversely if there's lots of snake food then there's no devotion in play? The two modes of Pharika, being a creature and churning out snakes, are not mutually exclusive. And given how fat and resilient modern creatures are, especially the random rares and mythics which so often grace the kitchen table, Pharika isn't usually a win-more when she's a creature. She's usually a road block which threatens retaliation.
Trample notwithstanding, deathtouch snakes do a pretty good job of handling hoards of monsters that are out of Pestilence's reach.
Well good on ya, then. Far too many arts/liberal-arts people are needlessly scared of math.
Obsidian Acolyte requires you to invest mana (white, to boot) in order to save your creatures. Rite of Passage requires only 3 mana (one of which being green), and will make your creatures immune to Pestilence damage, as well as making them huge. Finding a parallel between these two cards is a very big stretch of the imagination (especially considering the context in which they are used), in my opinion.
Essentially, if you're churning out ophidia, it's because you're most likely defending yourself with them, which in my mind tells me you're probably in board wipe/ creature-less survival mode, which means you won't have more than 4 devotion on the table. When you have devotion, you have creatures in play, in which case the ability is probably not that useful. They're not mutually exclusive, but when you think about the context in which you would use them, they don't fit together in what this deck wants to do.
Absolutely. you'd be hard-pressed to create enough snakes to block damage from a larger number of creatures (in which case, Pestilence would probably be a better bet, so that shouldn't be a problem).
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They're certainly not comparable in terms of power level. Rite of Passage makes almost every creature a huge threat with Pestilence in play whereas Obsidian Acolyte only makes creatures passable with Pestilence in play. The parallel is that they both encourage running creatures which are otherwise vulnerable to Pestilence. Ramping into sweepers that kill your ramp just doesn't seem like where you want to be. If you want mana sources that double up as win conditions, I'd recommend manlands. To clarify, I have no beef with Rite of Passage -its synergy with Pestilence is undenyable- just with running small mana critters in this type of deck.
If I'm making snakes defensively it's because wiping the board isn't an option either because Pestilence hasn't shown up yet or the creatures that need wiping have more toughness than I have mana. The features that really make Pharika, God of Affliction good in this deck are that she's on curve and resiliant to Pestilence. Being able to make snakes is just icing on the cake and honestly, I use that ability more often to keep Rescue from the Underworld in check. As for the devotion issue any way you slice it the main goal of this deck is to have an enchantment with two black mana symbols on it in play at all times. That's a good start right there (side benefit of giving life to redundant copies of Pestilence effects). The fact that my list has a dozen two-drops which each contribute two devotion to black/green means that Pharika will be able to turn sideways more often then not. Just like in Standard you can't just slot a god into any old deck and expect it to wake up, so if all your non-Pestilence permanents only pitch in one devotion each I wouldn't recommend Pharika (or Athreos, God of Passage for that matter).
The only time Obsidian Acolyte was only mentioned because of his synergy with Crypt Rats. What smaller creatures are worth protecting in White or Black? The cards I mentioned have many purposes. They ramp, fix mana, kill an opponent, chump block, etc. Not every card in the deck needs to be Pestilence-proof, especially considering Rite of Passage is also in there.
I'm curious as to what your opinion is on cards like Steel Wall or Wall of Hope. Their toughness is not incredibly high, and they can't attack. Yet, we see these cards very often in Pestilence decks.
In those scenarios, making snakes seems inferior to just having removal, as it gives you more control in being proactive. (although an advantage would be that it encourages opponents to attack someone else in multiplayer scenarios) Being on curve is extremely important for Pestilence, indeed. As you stated, Pharika demands that you build around her devotion, which works in your version, but restricts your card choices heavily (permanents with double mana-symbols is pretty specific). I don't know if I would risk playing two Pestilences at the same time just for the devotion, unless I had yet another backup in hand.
On another note, I refurbished the Pyrohemia section of the Primer with more card choices and a brand new deck that isn't outdated! It's been working really well in 1v1, and I expect it to be very good in multiplayer!
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On another note I think that Deathrite Shaman > Magus of the Candelabra and Voyaging Satyr > Utopia Tree in the green build.
Well spotted for Voyaging Satyr. He could even be useful in introducing Withering Wisps into the deck. Thank you!
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