Sorry if this gonna sounds rude but I dont understand why Lava Spike is better rated than Chain Lightning? What makes it worse than Incinerate in your burn list in primer? Burn is always designed to be as fast as possible, so I can't see the point.
Also in primer there is written that you can make 25 dmg in 3 turns. Don't wanna be troll but can I ask how? I don't think my legacy burn can make it so I am probably missing some tech.
I explained my reasoning behind why Chain Lightning is rated lower than Lava Spike in the initial description. Lava Spike deals the exact same damage for $14.00 cheaper. Both cards do the exact same damage, but since this is geared towards the Pauper play group which in most cases means budget, the choice is clear from a damage point of view and price point of view. The price point was the sole reason behind the lower rating, if you have them, use them but spending the cash on them when they really 'aren't' needed is kinda meh. Of course this is my opinion though.
I don't recall saying Chain Lightning was worse than Incinerate, where did I say that? Incinerate is a two drop card and Chain Lightning is a one drop card so they aren't even compared. If you are referring to why it isn't in my deck lists, then it is because my meta uses regeneration creatures and for that fact alone Incinerate is leaps and bounds better if you are forced into a slightly longer game.
As for making 25 damage on turn 3, I am not sure where I got that math from, but it is corrected now; thank you for catching that. In a best case scenario if you go first you make 23 damage on turn 4, and 22 damage on turn 3 if you go second because of the extra draw.
I'm kinda surprised chain lightning never got a reprint. It would see play in a standard environment devoid of bolts, and the "bounce it back at your face" aspect is amusing even if frequently irrelevant.
So I'm doing some testing with furnace scamp, and I am enjoying it. If you are running needle drops it's definitely great, enabling a turn 2 double needle drop or at least needle drop and maybe play what you drew off of it. And even without it you are hitting pretty hard with it. It's a bit shakier than goblin fireslinger, but there is no compelling reason you couldn't use both.
Also testing Guerrilla Tactics in the board. My local meta discard is popular, and Tactics seems like a fun little check to wipe the smirk off the opponent's face. I'm pretty interested in seeing how it works out.
So after lots of testing I have embraced needle drop, it lets me run less bad cards. And I ponied up for the chain lightnings (though I bought them in terrible condition, saved a lot there).
current list
Steamrolling everything put before me. Electrickery is surprisingly good tech, hitting most of the stupid white lifegain cards in one fell swoop. Keep switching back and forth between furnace scamp and goblin fireslinger. Fireslinger is more reliable, but scamp is way stronk.
So after lots of testing I have embraced needle drop, it lets me run less bad cards. And I ponied up for the chain lightnings (though I bought them in terrible condition, saved a lot there).
current list
Steamrolling everything put before me. Electrickery is surprisingly good tech, hitting most of the stupid white lifegain cards in one fell swoop. Keep switching back and forth between furnace scamp and goblin fireslinger. Fireslinger is more reliable, but scamp is way stronk.
Goblin Fireslinger is the clear winner here. Whenever you have a "reliant on this" creature, it isn't worth it in my book. Furnace Scamp may have a stronger "potential" hit, but I find him completely outclassed here.
I know it's not officially out yet, but Searing Blood almost definitely has a place in Peasant Burn in the two drop spot (or at minimum in the side, would you think?
I've got legacy burn built so just a couple swaps and I could play burn in pauper and peasant as well
I know it's not officially out yet, but Searing Blood almost definitely has a place in Peasant Burn in the two drop spot (or at minimum in the side, would you think?
I've got legacy burn built so just a couple swaps and I could play burn in pauper and peasant as well
gotta love interchangeable, multi-format decks!
Searing Blood will certainly be going into my Peasant version of Burn. It is easier to cast than Searing Blaze but I will run both cards at the same time and flat out eliminate a creature from the deck build. This card has potential staple ability for Burn lists.
Both operate in the same way, just that Sonic Burst deals one more point of damage for one colorless more.
Maybe the card disadvantage is too much to make these good choices or perhaps running both in a deck would be too much. But consider that it might be good with a hand full of useless lands. Might not be worth it, but felt they should be brought to attention.
"At Random" is enough to turn me off of any Mtg Card. I like to leave as little to chance as physically possible. I think 12 copies of lightning bolt is good enough.
I have a ton of trouble with Mono Blue since they can kind of just sit and counter what matters most. Im playing a pretty stock list and was thinking about having a transformational SB into more of a sligh list. Thoughts?
MUC and Delver are terrible matchups for Burn, indeed. You would need a solid card that can be dropped on turn 1-2 and that can stay relevant during the entire game.
Remember that your spells are cheaper on average than the blue decks, therefore you can cast more in a turn than they can. If you manage to get a creature into play and play many spells in a turn before their mana base gets too big, you might stand a chance. Kiln Fiend is not a bad choice, as it triggers whether the spell resolves or not anyways.
I've gone with fireslinger as it has less variance, but if you want to maximize your explosivity furnace scamp is a credible option.
As far as MUC and Delver matchups (Delver is often roughly the same deck as MUC, but has a much more tempo edge), this is your rough match up. pyroblast/red elemental blast are useful, but as stated a continued source of damage is key, even moreso than pyroblast. I am running goblin fireslinger specifically because of this purpose, and as stated Kiln Fiend also is a great repeatable source, kiln fiend requires getting through the red zone, where as goblin fireslinger is slower, but without that requirement. I'm reworking my sideboard for this matchup at the moment, because only REB deals with that match-up. MBC is more common in my environment, and my sideboard is built strongly with that in mind, partially by removing all the creatures, as without creatures I neuter tendrils of corruption (which is a commonly used removal spell that gains them life) causing their self damage to add up more as they only have corrupt and gary the traveling salesman to gain them life at 5cc (at which point you should already have won), and it blanks all of their other removal spells. Given that they tend to have lots of rats, you could do worse than include electrickery to wipe the board of noisome rodents. Scouring Sands is an option I am considering to replace electrickery, since the goal is to wipe out opposing x/1s, but I have actually used electrickery for 1, so I am on the fence about this one, the scry is really nice, but the question is "how much is the scry worth on a sideboard card"?
For peasant i would be interested in trying Satyr Nyx-Smith, having a little experience with it in sealed I can say it far exceeded my expectations (partially because haste is about the only thing that can make inspire not a trap). It lets you build up a hand while increasing pressure, unfortunately as smith and all of his tokens are x/1s it becomes trivially easy to wipe them off the board. Unfortunately I rarely if ever get to play peasant, so I am unlikely to get a chance to test it.
Here's my peasant list! I modeled it after my experience with legacy burn. Back in the day before Goblin Guide was printed, there was a variant we nick-named "Sports Car Burn" because it ran so smoothly They key was combining 19 Mountain, 2 Barbarian Ring, 4 Shard Volley and 3 Fireblast. At first, you may think that it is a mistake to not play 4 Fireblast, but increasing the number of 3-for-1s (Shard Volley) is actually more important than the 4th Fireblast. It can also be shown mathematically that 4 volley + 3 blast is less taxing on the mana base than 4 blast. Finally, all the land saccing adds up to support a turn 4 Ring activation much more consistently than most other builds. Interestingly, volley doesn't care about the type of land, and the 19 Mountain supports 3 Fireblast very well, while the 21 land total supports the land sac spells as a whole without problems. Basically, if you don't get threshold or don't need the Ring to get there, you can always sac it to the Volley. This "shell" makes optimum use of your resourses turn 1-4, which is why it runs so smoothly!
For my 3 remaining uncommon slots, I definetely want Skullcrack, because there's no out to life gain in commons. Hence:
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That's actually an interesting idea and the Blue splash for Cruise makes sense with the amount of cards you'll be casting (and works well with Faithless Looting). Can you post your current list?
That is an interesting list, but looks great and can even help hold out in longer games! Staggershock is a good card whether the meta calls for it or not. I'll definitely do some testing with a similar list and see how it goes.
Although, I will admit, my plan is to eventually purchase two more Chain Lightning and move two copies of Curse of the Pierced Heart to the sideboard, while completely removing the two copies of Gorilla Shaman from the list altogether. Honestly the shamans are just holding the place because I already own them. I don't think I will even board them in, though turn 1 shaman can do work against affinity.
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The thing is, I don't want to draw multiple curses. They are good if you play them early, but I don't like drawing them later. I have been playing this deck online, and I do really like the curses and they have done their job, but it feels like 4 is just to many.
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I prefer goblin fireslinger to the curse, he's cheaper and in case of emergencies chumps (which has been just the little edge I've needed in certain games). I understand the reasoning behind the curse (creatures, especially x/1 creatures, are far more vulnerable than enchantments), but I rarely see an opponent kill him, and when they do it's because they have electrickery or something similar maindeck for some odd reason (and that has happened 3 times with 2 different players and in all three cases i still managed to pull it out). Also the fact that he pings as an instant means more flexibility with the deployment of needle drop. Incinerate is where I would cut the 2 cards for the additional chain lightnings, unless you are running into regenerate a lot (and even then, that's what the sideboard is for).
I've been thinking long and hard about ways to smooth out the draws. The glass cannon characteristics of red are what stop it from being top tier along with the likes of "delver", "esper combo", and "affinity". So, if after turn 4 or 5, there were a way to make top decking less of an issue, you'd have a far higher chance of competing at that level.
I explained my reasoning behind why Chain Lightning is rated lower than Lava Spike in the initial description. Lava Spike deals the exact same damage for $14.00 cheaper. Both cards do the exact same damage, but since this is geared towards the Pauper play group which in most cases means budget, the choice is clear from a damage point of view and price point of view. The price point was the sole reason behind the lower rating, if you have them, use them but spending the cash on them when they really 'aren't' needed is kinda meh. Of course this is my opinion though.
I don't recall saying Chain Lightning was worse than Incinerate, where did I say that? Incinerate is a two drop card and Chain Lightning is a one drop card so they aren't even compared. If you are referring to why it isn't in my deck lists, then it is because my meta uses regeneration creatures and for that fact alone Incinerate is leaps and bounds better if you are forced into a slightly longer game.
As for making 25 damage on turn 3, I am not sure where I got that math from, but it is corrected now; thank you for catching that. In a best case scenario if you go first you make 23 damage on turn 4, and 22 damage on turn 3 if you go second because of the extra draw.
W White Weenie
Also testing Guerrilla Tactics in the board. My local meta discard is popular, and Tactics seems like a fun little check to wipe the smirk off the opponent's face. I'm pretty interested in seeing how it works out.
current list
4 keldon marauders
4 goblin fireslinger
Spells
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike
4 needle drop
4 fireblast
4 flame rift
4 searing blaze
20 mountain
3 electrickery
4 red elemental blast
4 guerrilla tactics
4 smash to smithereens
Steamrolling everything put before me. Electrickery is surprisingly good tech, hitting most of the stupid white lifegain cards in one fell swoop. Keep switching back and forth between furnace scamp and goblin fireslinger. Fireslinger is more reliable, but scamp is way stronk.
Goblin Fireslinger is the clear winner here. Whenever you have a "reliant on this" creature, it isn't worth it in my book. Furnace Scamp may have a stronger "potential" hit, but I find him completely outclassed here.
W White Weenie
I've got legacy burn built so just a couple swaps and I could play burn in pauper and peasant as well
gotta love interchangeable, multi-format decks!
Searing Blood will certainly be going into my Peasant version of Burn. It is easier to cast than Searing Blaze but I will run both cards at the same time and flat out eliminate a creature from the deck build. This card has potential staple ability for Burn lists.
W White Weenie
Isn't pyroblast essentially/functionally the same thing?
Sonic Seizure
Sonic Burst
Both operate in the same way, just that Sonic Burst deals one more point of damage for one colorless more.
Maybe the card disadvantage is too much to make these good choices or perhaps running both in a deck would be too much. But consider that it might be good with a hand full of useless lands. Might not be worth it, but felt they should be brought to attention.
And how do you guys handle the Mono Blue Menace?
Remember that your spells are cheaper on average than the blue decks, therefore you can cast more in a turn than they can. If you manage to get a creature into play and play many spells in a turn before their mana base gets too big, you might stand a chance. Kiln Fiend is not a bad choice, as it triggers whether the spell resolves or not anyways.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
As far as MUC and Delver matchups (Delver is often roughly the same deck as MUC, but has a much more tempo edge), this is your rough match up. pyroblast/red elemental blast are useful, but as stated a continued source of damage is key, even moreso than pyroblast. I am running goblin fireslinger specifically because of this purpose, and as stated Kiln Fiend also is a great repeatable source, kiln fiend requires getting through the red zone, where as goblin fireslinger is slower, but without that requirement. I'm reworking my sideboard for this matchup at the moment, because only REB deals with that match-up. MBC is more common in my environment, and my sideboard is built strongly with that in mind, partially by removing all the creatures, as without creatures I neuter tendrils of corruption (which is a commonly used removal spell that gains them life) causing their self damage to add up more as they only have corrupt and gary the traveling salesman to gain them life at 5cc (at which point you should already have won), and it blanks all of their other removal spells. Given that they tend to have lots of rats, you could do worse than include electrickery to wipe the board of noisome rodents. Scouring Sands is an option I am considering to replace electrickery, since the goal is to wipe out opposing x/1s, but I have actually used electrickery for 1, so I am on the fence about this one, the scry is really nice, but the question is "how much is the scry worth on a sideboard card"?
For peasant i would be interested in trying Satyr Nyx-Smith, having a little experience with it in sealed I can say it far exceeded my expectations (partially because haste is about the only thing that can make inspire not a trap). It lets you build up a hand while increasing pressure, unfortunately as smith and all of his tokens are x/1s it becomes trivially easy to wipe them off the board. Unfortunately I rarely if ever get to play peasant, so I am unlikely to get a chance to test it.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
W White Weenie
For my 3 remaining uncommon slots, I definetely want Skullcrack, because there's no out to life gain in commons. Hence:
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Keldon Marauders
3 Goblin Fireslinger
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Shard Volley
3 Skullcrack
3 Incinerate
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Searing Blaze
3 Pyroblast
3 Kiln Fiend
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4 Kiln Fiend
4 Blistercoil Weird
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Flame Slash
4 Searing Blaze
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Brimstone Volley
4 Akki Avalanchers
20 Mountain
It works pretty well, especially Flailing Soldier. Blistercoil is extremely weak in testing though, I am never excited to see it.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
4x Keldon Marauders
Enchantment: 4
4x Curse of the Pierced Heart
Instant: 20
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Needle Drop
4x Incinerate
4x Searing Blaze
4x Fireblast
4x Lava Spike
2x Chain Lightning
4x Flame Rift
4x Rift Bolt
Land: 18
18x Mountain
4x Pyroblast
4x Smash to Smithereens
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Gorilla Shaman
2x Electrickery
Although, I will admit, my plan is to eventually purchase two more Chain Lightning and move two copies of Curse of the Pierced Heart to the sideboard, while completely removing the two copies of Gorilla Shaman from the list altogether. Honestly the shamans are just holding the place because I already own them. I don't think I will even board them in, though turn 1 shaman can do work against affinity.
Fan of Red Raccoon Games in Bloomington, Illinois
KenAlsdorf on MTGO, Wargru on XMage
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Fan of Red Raccoon Games in Bloomington, Illinois
KenAlsdorf on MTGO, Wargru on XMage
Some options I was considering...
Flame Jab, and/or Kris Mage, turns top deck'd lands into damage
Spark Jolt, Lightning Javelin, and/or Bolt of Keranos, help smooth the draws with scrying, although the damage:mana ratio is a bit low.
Scalding Devil, Brothers of Fire, Flamewave Invoker, and/or Volcanic Rambler, make drawing lands a welcome thing, but by the time these guys become useful, the game should already be over.
There's also cantrips like cycling cards (Smoldering Crater/Forgotten Cave) or Manamorphose
Any thoughts?