So I've posted recently that I'm looking for a new control deck, because my Tim-based control deck is more cute than effective.
Over at another thread Zephyr Scarlet suggested an 8post teachings build. In response I brought up Ghostly Flicker. Scarlet's deck already has some great Flicker targets in Glimmerpost, Serrated Arrows, and Mulldrifter. Upkeep suggested Mnemonic Wall, which simultaneously provides some defense against opposing creatures and a way to recur Flicker.
I came up with a ton of possible cards of varying quality:
I like the idea of concentrating on 3+ toughness creatures so my guys can better survive sweepers like the rats. I'd be counting on Edict effects and Arrows to take care of bigger creatures. My playgroup includes elves so having some mass removal is very much a priority. I like expedition map to help not only color fix but also to find Locus lands for life or colorless ramp.
One last problem is lack of room; I know a lot of these cards won't be used in the final build.
Also, I think I can Evoke Aethersnipe, Blink it, and bounce two permanents and get a 4/4. Alternately Blink an evoked Mulldrifter to draw 4. Seems pretty solid.
1) I'm not sure how well Serrated Arrows (perhaps with recursion) can control opposing creature threats, and which of the above options tend to do better in Pauper.
2) Also, I'd like to be able to flicker Crypt Rats after triggering their ability. Is Turn to Mist the best bet for that?
3) It would be great to flicker Reality Acid from permanent to permanent. Are there pauper options for doing so?
Any additional thoughts would be most welcome. Thanks!
It seems like the deck is trying to do much things at once. You should focus either on an Esper Flicker build or a UBx Teachings one. Since you already saw the Teachings list I already posted, I'm going to go the Esper bounce route:
The deck focuses on abusing the ETB effects of your creatures, henceforth the low noncreature spell count. You can do really broken stuff with both Mesmeric Fiend and Faceless Butcher as blinking them in response to their ETB exiles permanently one card in hand / creature and then take another one temporarily. They're also fine creatures on their own. Also you might want yourself some Cloudshift as a cheap way to blink Butcher in response to it's own ETB or Evoke Drifter + Cloudshift him for 4 cards and the same 2/2 for a mana less. Mnemonic Wall is also a nice target, but it can only recur the Flickers, so I left it out.
About the Reality Acid, there's an entire deck dedicated to that called Azorius Kitty. As you expect, it works similar to Boros Kitty with it's Ichor Wellspring and Kor Skyfisher engine but it also uses Dream Stalker as a super sturdy wall and Reality Acid to blow things up. The deck also packs Mulldrifter, Momentary Blink and Aven Riftwatcher to round it up. It's a blast to play, and I definitely prefer it over the Boros build.
Thanks for the ideas! I totally agree that my initial design was too broad. Teachings was in my list mostly to get Ghostly Flicker, to be honest. I do worry a little bit that there are too few fast/broad control elements in your list, e.g. something to slow down the early development of an elfball deck before it combos off, or to wipe a lot of 1/1s that may be created through various means.
As for possible cuts, Aven Riftwatcher can be broken up into its lifegain and combat abilities. I'm hoping the lifegain isn't as necessary with Glimmerpost with possible Flicker recursion, and I'd rather control what's on the board rather than have to fight it. I know that even control decks sometimes go the "oops I win" route with and early-drawn finisher; I guess I'm just not quite convinced with Riftwatcher yet.
I'm also hoping that there might be a better option than Sea Gate Oracle, which seems to overlap with Mulldrifter's capability. Cards are good, but I also want to be able to handle a greater variety of board states and opposing strategies.
I hope this doesn't come across as too negative. I really appreciate the contrasting viewpoint of narrowing down the focus, and I think what you presented is an awesome aggro-control list, but I'm trying to end up with a more general board control design. Thanks!
Bump. I did some goldfishing of Xyx's pauper dimirpost and it's exactly the sort of deck I like: lots of interweaving card interactions. In Legacy my deck of choice is Death and Taxes, and Ghostly Flicker seems to have a similar role as Flickerwisp there.
I'd like to focus on playing the control game rather than trying to combo out. The reason for this is I prefer interactive games and therefore don't typically like to play combo, but I also want to run MTGO-banned pauper cards "because I can" so I'll run a single Fissure for kicks.
I really like the 3-card combo of Ghostly Flicker, Mnemonic Wall, and something with an "enters the battlefield" effect. I'd love to add a Chittering Rats to lock them out, but getting BB is difficult, especially early. There's a deck that actually concentrates on the Rats, Walls, and Flickers, and I might end up there for consistency, but I like having a ton of effects to choose from. One problem is finding the right card, so I'm looking at Forbidden Alchemy to dump things into the yard and later return with Disturbed Burial, Gravedigger, Walls, etc. It would kind of suck to Alchemy into two Loci and have to bin one, but that's what happens sometimes.
I'd like to fit all these flicker targets if there's room and no clear reason not to include them:
Have you considered a Trinket Mage package? It's a repeatedly blinkable tutor that you can Flicker repeatedly alongside other things to grab what you need from a Trinket toolbox like:
Obviously some of them would go in the SB, and some more won't make the cut at all. The new Eldrazi Devastator can also be a finisher if you're concerned about being too slow or not having enough finishing power. It trumps old Ulamog's Crusher in battle, can sit back to block, and cannot be chumpblocked.
Mortuary Mire seems a no-brainer here, repeatedly Disentombing your creatures at no cost other than the ETBT, which can be mitigated if you use it to pay some of Flicker's cost, and it can even be bounced off of Dimir Aqueduct. You can even tutor it up with Map should you include the Trinket package.
Yeah Trinket Mage has come up, and I've also considered Teachings earlier in the thread. We very quickly start to run out of space though. I like how Teachings gives us tools that work with the Walls, though Trinket Mage is a great way to abuse Ghostly Flicker. I'd be most interested in adding artifact lands, viridian longbow and capsule, though flayer husk is great against edict-style disruption. I'll have to see if I can afford 4-5 slots (the lands just replace existing basics so they don't really take up space).
I've been wondering about Oracles vs Mulldrifters. Inclusion of Mire nudges me towards running just Mulldrifters. I like how Mire would also work with binned creatures from Forbidden Alchemy. There's no way to get back artifacts and land though, which I'd be adding more of if I went with Trinket Mage.
1) I'll add a Mortuary Mire when it comes out, replacing either the Bog or an Island.
2) I don't like 1-ofs that can't be searched for, but I guess things kind of overlap so they aren't really singles.
3) Still, a single Forbidden Alchemy seems odd. Seems like I should either run 0 or 2+.
4) I actually managed to fit most of what I want in there. Chittering Rats would be a nice bounce target.
5) I know I should run more than one Fissure, but that one is just there "because I can." I don't really like playing combo-style, and would rather play a grindy control game.
I bet there's a lot of opportunity for refining, but I'm just gonna sleeve it up and see how it behaves. It should make a reasonable starting point.
Why are you running the Locus package? I don't see anything worth ramping into. Also, what's the point of the black in there? It seems like white would be a much stronger secondary color. Your ETB effects in White tend to be strong and Kor Skyfisher is one of the best creatures in the format. If you take out Trinket Mages and with your 4 Mnemonic Walls to 4 Archaeomancers that will let you drop a full grip of Ponder or Preordain.
Looking at the discussion thus far I can't help but think that the Reality Acid deck would be an excellent starting point.
Thanks for the ideas! I don't have any 8s, but I have a bunch of 5s that I wouldn't mind casting quickly. Black's there for removal and recursion. I'd be interested in looking at a Reality Acid build. Do you have a link?
Thanks for the ideas! I don't have any 8s, but I have a bunch of 5s that I wouldn't mind casting quickly. Black's there for removal and recursion. I'd be interested in looking at a Reality Acid build. Do you have a link?
It's an interesting build, and something I might try. Regarding running Locuses, the honest answer is I'm trying to find a neat way to use everything that's banned online. In that light, do you have any suggestions for a grindy 8-post Mnemonic Wall build like mine?
It's an interesting build, and something I might try. Regarding running Locuses, the honest answer is I'm trying to find a neat way to use everything that's banned online. In that light, do you have any suggestions for a grindy 8-post Mnemonic Wall build like mine?
No. When you have the most explosive mana base in the format you don't grind - you combo off and win. I think that if you want blue then go with the Capsize and Eldrazi win conditions, but adding red gives you the "grindier" games where you play burn and removal. Basically what you are looking at building is the contemporary RUG Tron decks with even faster mana.
Something like a core of:
Why not just go with the deck that actually got the cards banned? Locus lands + Temporal Fissure (also on the ban list). It's basically the Esper Familiars deck, but Mono-Blue and without the Familiars.
Why not just go with the deck that actually got the cards banned? Locus lands + Temporal Fissure (also on the ban list). It's basically the Esper Familiars deck, but Mono-Blue and without the Familiars.
I'm just looking to explore the design space. People play Dark Ritual in Aggro, Combo, and Control. It may not be best suited to all three, but it can certainly be useful. I'm hoping similar things are true of locus lands.
Over at another thread Zephyr Scarlet suggested an 8post teachings build. In response I brought up Ghostly Flicker. Scarlet's deck already has some great Flicker targets in Glimmerpost, Serrated Arrows, and Mulldrifter. Upkeep suggested Mnemonic Wall, which simultaneously provides some defense against opposing creatures and a way to recur Flicker.
I came up with a ton of possible cards of varying quality:
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Prophetic Prism
1 Expedition Map
// Creature Recursion
1 Disturbed Burial
1 Gravedigger
1 Soul Stair Expedition
// Transmute options
1 Helium Squirter
1 Predatory Nightstalker
1 Voidwielder
1 Brainspoil
// Early control elements
2 Augury Owl
2 Blister Beetle
// More bounce
2 Cavern Harpy
2 Man-o'-War
1 Sedraxis Alchemist
1 AEthersnipe
// Other control options
2 Crypt Rats
2 Festercreep
// White splash
1 Cloudshift
1 Momentary Blink
1 Whitemane Lion
1 Remember the Fallen
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Archaeomancer
1 Auramancer
1 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Brainspoil
1 Breath of Life
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Custodi Squire
1 Deputy of Acquittals
1 Dread Drone
1 Dream Stalker
1 Dry Spell
1 Exhume
1 False Defeat
1 Final-Sting Faerie
1 Glint Hawk
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Gurmag Drowner
1 Hooded Assassin
1 Leonin Squire
1 Mana Prism
1 Mine Excavation
1 Mist Raven
1 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Omenspeaker
1 Pit Keeper
1 Pith Driller
1 Reality Acid
1 Rishadan Cutpurse
1 Ritual of Restoration
1 Sage Aven
1 Sage Owl
1 Sage of Epityr
1 Sanctum Gargoyle
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Tidehollow Strix
1 Trinket Mage
1 Turn to Mist
1 Vedalken Dismisser
1 Village Bell-Ringer
1 Warren Pilferers
I like the idea of concentrating on 3+ toughness creatures so my guys can better survive sweepers like the rats. I'd be counting on Edict effects and Arrows to take care of bigger creatures. My playgroup includes elves so having some mass removal is very much a priority. I like expedition map to help not only color fix but also to find Locus lands for life or colorless ramp.
One last problem is lack of room; I know a lot of these cards won't be used in the final build.
Also, I think I can Evoke Aethersnipe, Blink it, and bounce two permanents and get a 4/4. Alternately Blink an evoked Mulldrifter to draw 4. Seems pretty solid.
4 Prophetic Prism
2 Ponder
Counters (6)
4 Prohibit
2 Condescend
Removal (5)
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Crypt Rats
2 Mystical Teachings
4 Ghostly Flicker
4 Mulldrifter
4 Mnemonic Wall
3 Serrated Arrows
3 {{{Flex Slots}}}
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Dismal Backwater
8 Island
5 Swamp
At this point I need some help. Some questions:
1) I'm not sure how well Serrated Arrows (perhaps with recursion) can control opposing creature threats, and which of the above options tend to do better in Pauper.
2) Also, I'd like to be able to flicker Crypt Rats after triggering their ability. Is Turn to Mist the best bet for that?
3) It would be great to flicker Reality Acid from permanent to permanent. Are there pauper options for doing so?
Any additional thoughts would be most welcome. Thanks!
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
4 Prophetic Prism
2 Serrated Arrows
Creature (23)
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Sea Gate Oracle
4 Aven Riftwatcher
4 Faceless Butcher
4 Mulldrifter
3 Predatory Nightstalker
4 Ghostly Flicker
4 Momentary Blink
Land (23)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Shimmering Grotto
3 Dismal Backwater
3 Tranquil Cove
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 Plains
The deck focuses on abusing the ETB effects of your creatures, henceforth the low noncreature spell count. You can do really broken stuff with both Mesmeric Fiend and Faceless Butcher as blinking them in response to their ETB exiles permanently one card in hand / creature and then take another one temporarily. They're also fine creatures on their own. Also you might want yourself some Cloudshift as a cheap way to blink Butcher in response to it's own ETB or Evoke Drifter + Cloudshift him for 4 cards and the same 2/2 for a mana less. Mnemonic Wall is also a nice target, but it can only recur the Flickers, so I left it out.
About the Reality Acid, there's an entire deck dedicated to that called Azorius Kitty. As you expect, it works similar to Boros Kitty with it's Ichor Wellspring and Kor Skyfisher engine but it also uses Dream Stalker as a super sturdy wall and Reality Acid to blow things up. The deck also packs Mulldrifter, Momentary Blink and Aven Riftwatcher to round it up. It's a blast to play, and I definitely prefer it over the Boros build.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
As for possible cuts, Aven Riftwatcher can be broken up into its lifegain and combat abilities. I'm hoping the lifegain isn't as necessary with Glimmerpost with possible Flicker recursion, and I'd rather control what's on the board rather than have to fight it. I know that even control decks sometimes go the "oops I win" route with and early-drawn finisher; I guess I'm just not quite convinced with Riftwatcher yet.
I'm also hoping that there might be a better option than Sea Gate Oracle, which seems to overlap with Mulldrifter's capability. Cards are good, but I also want to be able to handle a greater variety of board states and opposing strategies.
I hope this doesn't come across as too negative. I really appreciate the contrasting viewpoint of narrowing down the focus, and I think what you presented is an awesome aggro-control list, but I'm trying to end up with a more general board control design. Thanks!
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I'd like to focus on playing the control game rather than trying to combo out. The reason for this is I prefer interactive games and therefore don't typically like to play combo, but I also want to run MTGO-banned pauper cards "because I can" so I'll run a single Fissure for kicks.
I really like the 3-card combo of Ghostly Flicker, Mnemonic Wall, and something with an "enters the battlefield" effect. I'd love to add a Chittering Rats to lock them out, but getting BB is difficult, especially early. There's a deck that actually concentrates on the Rats, Walls, and Flickers, and I might end up there for consistency, but I like having a ton of effects to choose from. One problem is finding the right card, so I'm looking at Forbidden Alchemy to dump things into the yard and later return with Disturbed Burial, Gravedigger, Walls, etc. It would kind of suck to Alchemy into two Loci and have to bin one, but that's what happens sometimes.
I'd like to fit all these flicker targets if there's room and no clear reason not to include them:
I don't think I'd mind leaving out Ulamog and playing for the slow win or concession.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
- Expedition Map for assembling the Tron and Mortuary Mire
- Executioner's Capsule as fetcheable removal
- Seat of the Synod and Vault of Whispers as a way to hit your colors without recurring to Map
- Bonesplitter as a way to force through damage and end games a lot quicker
- Flayer Husk as an acceptable equipment that can provide multiple bodies when Flickered for inevitability against removal-heavy decks.
- Viridian Longbow as board control against Weenies
- Feldon's Cane to reuse your Yard
- Nihil Spellbomb as 'yard hate
Obviously some of them would go in the SB, and some more won't make the cut at all. The new Eldrazi Devastator can also be a finisher if you're concerned about being too slow or not having enough finishing power. It trumps old Ulamog's Crusher in battle, can sit back to block, and cannot be chumpblocked.
Mortuary Mire seems a no-brainer here, repeatedly Disentombing your creatures at no cost other than the ETBT, which can be mitigated if you use it to pay some of Flicker's cost, and it can even be bounced off of Dimir Aqueduct. You can even tutor it up with Map should you include the Trinket package.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I've been wondering about Oracles vs Mulldrifters. Inclusion of Mire nudges me towards running just Mulldrifters. I like how Mire would also work with binned creatures from Forbidden Alchemy. There's no way to get back artifacts and land though, which I'd be adding more of if I went with Trinket Mage.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
5 Island
4 Cloudpost
4 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Glimmerpost
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
// Almost Land
4 Expedition Map
4 Prophetic Prism
2 Dimir Signet
4 Mnemonic Wall
3 Cloud of Faeries
3 Trinket Mage
2 Mulldrifter
2 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Archaeomancer
1 Gravedigger
1 Man-o'-War
1 Predatory Nightstalker
4 Ghostly Flicker
1 Capsize
1 Disturbed Burial
1 Doom Blade
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Rend Flesh
1 Temporal Fissure
1 Viridian Longbow
Thoughts:
1) I'll add a Mortuary Mire when it comes out, replacing either the Bog or an Island.
2) I don't like 1-ofs that can't be searched for, but I guess things kind of overlap so they aren't really singles.
3) Still, a single Forbidden Alchemy seems odd. Seems like I should either run 0 or 2+.
4) I actually managed to fit most of what I want in there. Chittering Rats would be a nice bounce target.
5) I know I should run more than one Fissure, but that one is just there "because I can." I don't really like playing combo-style, and would rather play a grindy control game.
I bet there's a lot of opportunity for refining, but I'm just gonna sleeve it up and see how it behaves. It should make a reasonable starting point.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Looking at the discussion thus far I can't help but think that the Reality Acid deck would be an excellent starting point.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I do. It's one of those decks that pops up on the Pauper dailies once in a while and someone 3-0'd with this one this week:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/pauper-wu-21811#paper
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
No. When you have the most explosive mana base in the format you don't grind - you combo off and win. I think that if you want blue then go with the Capsize and Eldrazi win conditions, but adding red gives you the "grindier" games where you play burn and removal. Basically what you are looking at building is the contemporary RUG Tron decks with even faster mana.
Something like a core of:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
Spells -
4 Explore
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Snap
4 Expedition Map
4 Mulldrifters
3 Sea Gate Oracle
2 Ulamog's Crusher
2 Mnemonic Wall
4 Cloud of Faeries
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!