Everybody respects the legacy banlist, but you'd be hard pressed to call the meta "Legacy".
...
I adopt the pauper/peasant mantle mostly as a way to stimulate creativity in deck building (and keep it budget friendly), we don't really have a pauper/peasant environment, it's more free for all.
I started with the following rough GW sketch, but I'd be happy to consider GR with more direct damage and other aggression (I'd love to be able to use Furor of the Bitten, Bolts, and get First Strike and Trample Slivers for less mana) or other colors.
So at last, my reply. First, thanks for the feedback!
Re: expensive tutors
As I wrote with my list, my goal is to create an interactive deck, not just a pile of beaters. Meathooks was my first Legacy deck, and I'd like to achieve that sort of feel if possible in a more limited carpool. I get that GW might be the wrong colors for that, but at least it's a starting point. (Feel free to suggest builds in other colors that give that sort of play style!) With that in mind though, aggro-control tends to leave some mana open for interaction during an opponent's turn. For that reason, I figured the slivercycling cost, while admittedly high, is easier to bear as I would use it at the opponent's end of turn. Of course it might not work out in the end, but hopefully the understanding of where I'm coming from makes me seem slightly less insane.
Re: virulent/plated, in order to minimize mana inconsistency my goal was to have a primary color of G and a splash color of W. Of course, white has Plated Sliver and Sidewinder Sliver, which work quite well attacking into smaller, early-game creatures. Where are the green 1-drops to fit into my "Forests-first" strategy? I knew about Virulent Sliver, but discarded it because at least with Meathooks, it was easier (or as easy) to get 20 damage to the dome as it was to get 10 poison. Unless you can tutor for multiple Virulents to stack the poison triggers, and especially in a 12-lord Muscle/Sinew/Predatory shell, that rule of thumb seems to hold true. Unless I'm missing something, which is certainly possible!
Pacifism was a dumb idea. Oblivion Ring is a common, and I'll likely use that for broad-spectrum removal.
I thought Sundering Growth copied any creature, which would make it the most awesome disenchant. Unfortunately it's only tokens, and despite the use of Hive Stirrings, I don't think that's enough. If I switch to O-Ring, there's an unnecessary overlap in capability as well.
Travel Preparations looks great, but at Sorcery speed it can't be used to protect from removal or for combat tricks. Permanent +4/+4 is great for a single card, but hopefully we have enough Lords for pumping. Again, I'd like my spells to be more interactive.
I see three possibilities:
GW horde mode with tons of lords, less interactive, Zerg rush gg
GU, Virulent+evasion (Shadow/Flying), more control and permission options, filter through the deck to find Virulents, homing would make sense to grab more virulents
Any thoughts or suggestions? I've heard of some people having success with GR. Any recent examples? Thanks!
EDIT: To be honest GR might be the better bet for me. First Strike+Hunter+Rancor/Bonesplitter offers all the crazy combat trickery I like while also acting as removal for opposing utility creatures. G gives me Vines of Vastwood, which can be used to counter removal as well as for combat tricks. Still a much different kind of deck than Meathooks, but at least it's got some more flavor than "my guys are bigger than your guys." I'll try to come up with a deck list, but feel free to beat me to the punch!
So, I need to get rid of around 4 cards, and maybe do some replacements. Furor of the Bitten should perhaps be Bonesplitter or a Burn spell. However, I don't want to use Chain Lightning since it's a $10 common.
Regarding GU, Two Virulents with a Shadow Sliver need only two attacks to win. With only commons, that might still be asking a lot though.
EDIT AGAIN: My RG hopes may be getting too cute. I should likely just build it as a pile of dumb beaters and make a BU pauper control deck.
Keeping it simple, a WG version might look something like this:
Only 19 land, but my curve is pretty low. Still might be too greedy though. White turns out to be the dominant color now, so I'm using all the white 1-drops.
Counterslivers seems the most powerful route to go since it only lacks Crystalline Sliver and Æther Vial to have the full-powered up deck. White doesn't offer much besides the Zerg Rush approach you yourself said, and it seems like you have already figured out a neat GR deck. Here's my take on counterslivers:
You might need one more sliver like Virulent Sliver and to adjust to have better creature answers other than counters, but this seems like a good beginning.
Thanks for the list! As a Meathooks player I'd take issue with the idea that we're only missing Crystalline and Vial, which is actually kinda relevant here:
A strength of Meathooks was the ability to use free counterspells and vials to lessen the burden on the manabase and allow you to simultaneously play threats and countermagic. Since Pauper doesn't have easy access to those tricks, it seems much more difficult to make an aggro control build. If you want to put on pressure, you're tapping out and lowering your shields by playing threats. If you leave mana open for countermagic, you're not developing your board. Regardless of your answer to "Who's the beatdown?" the deck can't easily fill its role.
Regardless, things that slip through can't be answered outside of combat damage. In my casual sideboardless environment, maindeck answers are a must (hence all the Journeys to Nowhere and Oblivion Rings in my GW list).
I haven't tested the list so I shouldn't be too negative here, and I'd certainly love to have an effective pauper Countersliver build to have similar gameplay to Meathooks, but at this time I see more promise from a more aggressive route with removal (Naturalize/Flame Slash/O-Ring).
Are there other pauper aggro-control lists that behave more like a Legacy aggro-control deck or tempo deck like RUG Delver? I'd be interested in seeing how they work. I have a feeling that their creatures are more "double duty" and can serve disruption in addition to beats. The fact that Slivers could only get big and Shroudy was part of their problem in Legacy, when decks from Elves to Merfolk to Goblins had Lords and more tricks at their disposal. In pauper, we're the only tribe with 12 lords, so beef is the more natural fit.
I realize I'm talking myself into an aggro build, but again I'd love to see an aggro-control version that could work. Thanks again for the response!
If you want permission aggro-control, consider counter-rebels instead (instant speed threats) or going peasant for vial. You could also look at Zephyr's UW caw blade thread. Or most obvious of all: just play mono blue delver. Pretty much the definition of aggro control in pauper. Or consider MBC or dimir trinkets if you like multi-purpose creatures and heavy disruption.
The truth is that GW "stupid slivers" has nothing on GW "stupid hexproof". They'll often have an untargetable 3/3 lifelink trample attacking on turn 3, and maybe drop an evasive 7/7 aura gnarlid on turn 4 to follow up.
Going poisonous, nah - UG slivers has nothing on mono green infect there either.
So really, the ONLY way forward IMO is the RG variant. I like your drafts of it so far (except the aura), but it feels like it might need something more to really take off. Also, the provoke sliver should probably be a 2-3 of main. If you can make something that can outclass goblins and mono green stompy here, I think you have something.
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If you want answers and more lords then you'll have to forcibly splash either White for removal and Sinew Sliver or Red for Lightning Bolt and Flame Slash. The fact that we have no Vial is considerably offset by playing Quick Sliver, which, as you said, allows us to play both threats and countermagic at instant speed. I think the only real thing missing is, as you said, creature removal, but if you don't want to use Fight effects, we will have to splash another color to run the answers. Gemhide Sliver could make this possible by making all our slivers Birds of Paradise. While it might seem weak, the fact that you play so many instants and Quick Sliver to give flash to your hive makes it a rather nasty surprise in the opponent's turn, where you can effectively flash a "land" and retain your Slivers untapped for blocking or casting more spells. We can agree however, that the absolute core and must haves are something like this:
I would run no less than 2 Distant Melody, since you need to refill your hand to keep finding threats and answers, and paying 4, albeit a bit costly and at sorcery speed, pays off by drawing you from 3 to 5 cards.
If you want a more Counter-sliver style, I agree with Urdjur; you should look into counter rebels instead. If you look back you should find a thread on the subject. I don't think it's worth using slivers in any other combination of colours than GW, since the lords are basically what make the deck good.
What about a green heavy bant build, using Gemhide Sliver to enable a splash for Sinew Sliver and Distant Melody, with most of the countering and removal in the SB? You could use the following mana base
You could even go a bit techy with the sliver cycling you suggested before and Nameless Inversion in such a build. It's basically 5C slivers - go crazy!
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Thanks for all the ideas, folks. It's a bit sad that 12 lords isn't enough to make Slivers good in a format where they're the only ones who have lords. Poor slivers. I might build it anyway for the flavor cause it's cheap, but I'll see if I can refine the RG list, and take a look at counterrebels.
I think a lot of newcomers to the Pauper format are surprised at how refined and competitive this format can be. I feel a bit bad for crushing dreams; by all means continue brewing! I think it's still important to know what's being done at the most competitive levels of the game in order to compare power and find the best options available. Many of these top Pauper decks will just walk all over casual decks (not to mention competitive Standard and whatnot). If you pick up one of those decks and they fit the playstyle you want, then perfect! If you want to brew and have similar results, good luck! We'll all be here to help make it as playable as possible.
I think the best thing for you to do right now is to pick a deck among the ones you proposed in this thread (RG Slivers, GW Slivers, Meathooks), and say: "I want to make this better" rather than ask if there are stronger alternatives. They'll all be playable at worst! Whether one is better than the other is hard to say. I like GW, Urdjur like GR, and Zephyr Scarlet likes Counter Slivers. Which one do you like? That will give us a better direction to follow.
Yeah, I have a lot of respect for pauper, and generally feel pretty viable when facing competitive Standard decks with my pauper builds. My surprise was that a 12-lord build wasn't as strong as other aggro builds in the format.
Just to be clear though, I'm not building to face a pauper meta though. I'll be building to face all manner of pet decks, suboptimal Legacy decks, etc. Casual games with no sideboards, so the main 60 has to be pretty well-rounded.
It's not as strong because it's just a bit too slow to get off the ground. Having a ton of two-drops makes it feel more like a mid-range deck.
Now it's not about whether it's good enough for Pauper. The real question is: is it good enough for your play group? Do you think a slower (but synergistic) aggro deck is well placed in your meta? As you say, you're not facing a Pauper metagame, you're facing a mash of what is basically the most open-ended format possible.
As an advantage, an aggro deck has less of a need for a sideboard than a control deck, mostly because you are the proactive player in almost any matchup. I build many a good control deck without a sideboard, though (Pestilence and Pyrohemia being excellent examples in a multiplayer, Legacy-ish format like yours).
I started with the following rough GW sketch, but I'd be happy to consider GR with more direct damage and other aggression (I'd love to be able to use Furor of the Bitten, Bolts, and get First Strike and Trample Slivers for less mana) or other colors.
Original list: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/casual-related-formats/paper-pauper-peasant/597296-new-to-peasant-how-does-my-bant-sliver-list-look?comment=5
Upkeep responded thusly:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/casual-related-formats/paper-pauper-peasant/597296-new-to-peasant-how-does-my-bant-sliver-list-look?comment=6
So at last, my reply. First, thanks for the feedback!
Re: expensive tutors
As I wrote with my list, my goal is to create an interactive deck, not just a pile of beaters. Meathooks was my first Legacy deck, and I'd like to achieve that sort of feel if possible in a more limited carpool. I get that GW might be the wrong colors for that, but at least it's a starting point. (Feel free to suggest builds in other colors that give that sort of play style!) With that in mind though, aggro-control tends to leave some mana open for interaction during an opponent's turn. For that reason, I figured the slivercycling cost, while admittedly high, is easier to bear as I would use it at the opponent's end of turn. Of course it might not work out in the end, but hopefully the understanding of where I'm coming from makes me seem slightly less insane.
Re: virulent/plated, in order to minimize mana inconsistency my goal was to have a primary color of G and a splash color of W. Of course, white has Plated Sliver and Sidewinder Sliver, which work quite well attacking into smaller, early-game creatures. Where are the green 1-drops to fit into my "Forests-first" strategy? I knew about Virulent Sliver, but discarded it because at least with Meathooks, it was easier (or as easy) to get 20 damage to the dome as it was to get 10 poison. Unless you can tutor for multiple Virulents to stack the poison triggers, and especially in a 12-lord Muscle/Sinew/Predatory shell, that rule of thumb seems to hold true. Unless I'm missing something, which is certainly possible!
Pacifism was a dumb idea. Oblivion Ring is a common, and I'll likely use that for broad-spectrum removal.
I thought Sundering Growth copied any creature, which would make it the most awesome disenchant. Unfortunately it's only tokens, and despite the use of Hive Stirrings, I don't think that's enough. If I switch to O-Ring, there's an unnecessary overlap in capability as well.
Travel Preparations looks great, but at Sorcery speed it can't be used to protect from removal or for combat tricks. Permanent +4/+4 is great for a single card, but hopefully we have enough Lords for pumping. Again, I'd like my spells to be more interactive.
I see three possibilities:
EDIT: To be honest GR might be the better bet for me. First Strike+Hunter+Rancor/Bonesplitter offers all the crazy combat trickery I like while also acting as removal for opposing utility creatures. G gives me Vines of Vastwood, which can be used to counter removal as well as for combat tricks. Still a much different kind of deck than Meathooks, but at least it's got some more flavor than "my guys are bigger than your guys." I'll try to come up with a deck list, but feel free to beat me to the punch!
4 Metallic Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
2 Heart Sliver
2 Spinneret Sliver
4 Hunter Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
Spells (20)
4 Furor of the Bitten
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Blood Lust
1 Gruul Turf
1 Rugged Highlands
1 Flame Slash
1 Hearth Charm
1 Rouse the Mob
1 Seedling Charm
1 Colossal Might
1 Dangerous Wager
1 Fury Charm
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Heart Sliver
1 Hull Breach
1 Naturalize
1 Quick Sliver
1 Spinneret Sliver
1 Temur Battle Rage
1 Bestial Fury
1 Sundering Vitae
1 Wild Hunger
1 Bonesplitter Sliver
So, I need to get rid of around 4 cards, and maybe do some replacements. Furor of the Bitten should perhaps be Bonesplitter or a Burn spell. However, I don't want to use Chain Lightning since it's a $10 common.
Regarding GU, Two Virulents with a Shadow Sliver need only two attacks to win. With only commons, that might still be asking a lot though.
EDIT AGAIN: My RG hopes may be getting too cute. I should likely just build it as a pile of dumb beaters and make a BU pauper control deck.
Keeping it simple, a WG version might look something like this:
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
2 Sentinel Sliver
2 Mutagenic Growth
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Rancor
3 Journey to Nowhere
3 Hive Stirrings
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Blossoming Sands
5 Forest
8 Plains
Only 19 land, but my curve is pretty low. Still might be too greedy though. White turns out to be the dominant color now, so I'm using all the white 1-drops.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
4 Quick Sliver
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Distant Melody
Instant (10)
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
1 Exclude
4 Thornwood Falls
9 Island
7 Forest
You might need one more sliver like Virulent Sliver and to adjust to have better creature answers other than counters, but this seems like a good beginning.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
A strength of Meathooks was the ability to use free counterspells and vials to lessen the burden on the manabase and allow you to simultaneously play threats and countermagic. Since Pauper doesn't have easy access to those tricks, it seems much more difficult to make an aggro control build. If you want to put on pressure, you're tapping out and lowering your shields by playing threats. If you leave mana open for countermagic, you're not developing your board. Regardless of your answer to "Who's the beatdown?" the deck can't easily fill its role.
Regardless, things that slip through can't be answered outside of combat damage. In my casual sideboardless environment, maindeck answers are a must (hence all the Journeys to Nowhere and Oblivion Rings in my GW list).
I haven't tested the list so I shouldn't be too negative here, and I'd certainly love to have an effective pauper Countersliver build to have similar gameplay to Meathooks, but at this time I see more promise from a more aggressive route with removal (Naturalize/Flame Slash/O-Ring).
Are there other pauper aggro-control lists that behave more like a Legacy aggro-control deck or tempo deck like RUG Delver? I'd be interested in seeing how they work. I have a feeling that their creatures are more "double duty" and can serve disruption in addition to beats. The fact that Slivers could only get big and Shroudy was part of their problem in Legacy, when decks from Elves to Merfolk to Goblins had Lords and more tricks at their disposal. In pauper, we're the only tribe with 12 lords, so beef is the more natural fit.
I realize I'm talking myself into an aggro build, but again I'd love to see an aggro-control version that could work. Thanks again for the response!
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
The truth is that GW "stupid slivers" has nothing on GW "stupid hexproof". They'll often have an untargetable 3/3 lifelink trample attacking on turn 3, and maybe drop an evasive 7/7 aura gnarlid on turn 4 to follow up.
Going poisonous, nah - UG slivers has nothing on mono green infect there either.
So really, the ONLY way forward IMO is the RG variant. I like your drafts of it so far (except the aura), but it feels like it might need something more to really take off. Also, the provoke sliver should probably be a 2-3 of main. If you can make something that can outclass goblins and mono green stompy here, I think you have something.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Quick Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
4 Mana Leak
3 Daze
2 Distant Melody
I would run no less than 2 Distant Melody, since you need to refill your hand to keep finding threats and answers, and paying 4, albeit a bit costly and at sorcery speed, pays off by drawing you from 3 to 5 cards.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
14 forest
4 utopia sprawl
4 abundant growth
4 gemhide sliver
You could even go a bit techy with the sliver cycling you suggested before and Nameless Inversion in such a build. It's basically 5C slivers - go crazy!
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I think the best thing for you to do right now is to pick a deck among the ones you proposed in this thread (RG Slivers, GW Slivers, Meathooks), and say: "I want to make this better" rather than ask if there are stronger alternatives. They'll all be playable at worst! Whether one is better than the other is hard to say. I like GW, Urdjur like GR, and Zephyr Scarlet likes Counter Slivers. Which one do you like? That will give us a better direction to follow.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Just to be clear though, I'm not building to face a pauper meta though. I'll be building to face all manner of pet decks, suboptimal Legacy decks, etc. Casual games with no sideboards, so the main 60 has to be pretty well-rounded.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Now it's not about whether it's good enough for Pauper. The real question is: is it good enough for your play group? Do you think a slower (but synergistic) aggro deck is well placed in your meta? As you say, you're not facing a Pauper metagame, you're facing a mash of what is basically the most open-ended format possible.
As an advantage, an aggro deck has less of a need for a sideboard than a control deck, mostly because you are the proactive player in almost any matchup. I build many a good control deck without a sideboard, though (Pestilence and Pyrohemia being excellent examples in a multiplayer, Legacy-ish format like yours).
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio