My parameters are the legacy banlist with 5 uncommons and the rest commons that will compete against varied, semi-casual budget decks. Here are some this-or-that questions for the forum:
1) Best storm combo deck?
Options are sac land tendrils (no burning wish obv, but Tendrils is fine) or high tide with acess to brain freeze and prosperity or even reset. I think SLT has the edge, but solidarity isn't bad either (but a few Reset would cost me).
2) Best aggro deck?
Is it infect with invigorate or affinity with plating? I suppose affinity gains more from uncommons than invigorate, barring Berserk (Signal Pest is pretty crucial to modern legacy builds). I'm guessing affinity here.
3) Best control deck?
Not sure if there is a "best build" but I guess it's Ubr post with Thopter/Sword combo, or some version of MBC or MUC (though MUC probably gains more from uncommons, FoW of course but also Propaganda, Counterbalance and other important tools). Any ideas here?
I'm unsure about how archetypes like Astral Slide and TurboFog would fare in this comparison, but I suppose they are worse. As for aggro control, I'm pretty sure Delver with improved uncommon counters etc would reign surpreme. Wouldn't mind a cheapish, peasant Delver list though, if someone would like to share.
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On top of other spicy Trinket Mage targets, you could make a really kick-ass control deck.
I see Infect as more of a Combo deck than an Aggro deck (you're dumping a bunch of cards into a single attack for the win, rather than having many relevant threats attacking at once). Regardless, I'm sure it's extremely potent, particularly with Berserk.
I get the feeling High Tide would be the best bet. But does it have the tools to use Reset? What card would you use to win on the opponents' turn?
I think the problem with an all-in counterbalance control deck is that legacy (and casual legacy) is such an aggro dominated format. So if you assemble countertop by turn 4, all you have is that 2/2 mage to handle the actual board state. Blue commons don't exactly handle creature swarms very well. You'd probably have to go into two colors (black for Executioner's Capsule most likely). I still think the countering needs could be met with commons and that it's the wincons that stand to gain the most from uncommons, but I could be wrong.
I wonder if the prevalence of cheap, instant speed removal and ample blockers is what's prevented infect from being much of a thing in legacy or even much of a problem in peasant. Affinity with plating has been a force in pretty much all formats where it has been legal though, so I'm guessing it is stronger (and cheaper than Berserk).
Solidarity would use Brain Freeze to win on opp turn, but this would require a build with all instants since stuff like Preordain/Ponder are duds while going off in such a scenario. I'm not sure this is the best bet for peasant since you don't have cunning wish and Stroke of Genius against eldrazi etc. With no rares, I'm thinking sorcery speed and abusing merchant scroll is a better bet, maybe even with a Delver transformational sideboard (you're already running snap, faeries, cantrips and counters). Looking at the two storm archetypes, I think the pros and cons would be:
Wishless SLT: built in resilience to counters, can only run 3-4 protection (duress typically) main, cheap to build
Peasant reset/high tide: obvious counter targets (high tide, merchant scroll) but can run main deck protection that can even be part of the combo (snap against hate bears, Rewind and land tappers against control). Will need something to not auto-lose to eldrazi though, which will probably mean running 3 Prosperity and singleton Brain Freeze and Reset as tutor targets.
Looking forward to your reflections on this. What's with the nick change, btw?
EDIT: Speaking of countertop, what about fitting the following five uncommons in zephyr's UW CawBlade shell?
2 Counterbalance
1 SDT
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Thopter Foundry
The sword synergizes well with all the birds too. Just add 3 Muddle the mixture to get the combo or CB when it matters the most. Foundry can also eat artifact lands etc. Requires a slightly greater blue commitment I think, but that's rarely a bad thing
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As an avid Affinity player since it's inception in the original Mirrodin Block and experienced pilot of the Modern deck (and to a lesser extent Legacy), I'd say that you have half the key cards (Plating, Pest) and a passable substitute of the cornerstone of the deck (Atog), but you lack Steel Overseer and Etched Champion / Master of Etherium, Mox Opal and the manlands, so you'll have to be even quicker and try to support 1 CMC counterspells like Spell Pierce mainboard to maintain your tempo and throw your opponents off-balance and load up on Galvanic Blast to finish the job. Here's the core of the deck:
You have 52 cards there, leaving you with 8 flex slots to use as you wish. Obvious inclusions would be 3-4 Frogmite and 2-3 Myr Enforcer, leaving you with 2-3 more spots for either Spell Pierce or even more mana acceleration like Prophetic Prism. Here's a list:
Excellent Zephyr - a seasoned pauper AND affinity player to take the case I have contemplated a lot of the same cards (except perhaps Spell Pierce), but I have loads of questions nevertheless:
1) Is Memnite so important as a singleton that it trumps Ensoul Artifact (to put on Citadel or Vault Skirge) as a singleton? And if it is, would you consider running Phyrexian Walker over (or in addition to) Frogmite as a substitute for the full playset? If the magic number of 0 costed dudes is dependent on the number of Drums you run (as I suspect it is), I think I'd rather have fewer drums and more chromatic stars to not be forced to spend U slots on Memnite.
2) Springleaf Drum - is 4 the correct number, as in, is it simply so powerful that you'd rather have redundant useless drums than use Chromatic Star?
3) What are your thoughts on the Perilous Research variant with 4 Chromatic Star? It looked promising to me with my specific parameters.
4) Is Atog really important with access to Plating and Ensoul Artifact? It seems like a bad substitute especially considering an environment with Swords to Plowshares and a build with no Disciple or Fling. I think I'd rather have MOAR artifacts and draw to play more free Frogmites and Plating.
5) Have you considered Temur Battle Rage in addition to blasts, what are your thoughts on this card with access to plating etc?
6) Seeing as BB will be hard to come by anyway for instant speed moving of Plating, do you think W or G for metalcraft dudes would be a better choice? Or is black much needed for hardcasting Skirge and sideboard options like Duress?
I'll present a build suggestion of my own after I hear your thoughts on this questions.
Now for the other decks discussed above - I really got hooked on the idea of a peasant high tide deck with a transformational Delver sideboard. So here it goes:
The sideboarding strategy for game 2 is to board out the core combo package for the 9 creatures, thus acheiving a Delver deck and completely throwing off opposing sideboard strategies and play tactics. Typically, one of the 4 Merchant Scroll will also be swapped for the most relevant of the singleton SB instants. Merchant Scroll + Accumulated Knowledge is actually a fairly decent draw engine. Conjurer's Bauble can keep it going, but its main purpose is to prevent disaster if something happens to Brain Freeze game 1, or to get more effective copies of Turnabout to fish out with the scroll (also works well with sideboarded singletons if they need an encore appearance).
The 8 creatures do a good job game 1 of stalling against aggro to get enough Islands into play, and eventually forcing control to spend resources on a nuiscance - all while also being combo pieces/protection. I chose Remand as my final uncommon slots - it's an established part of Solidarity's protection suite as well as a strong tempo card in Delver, so that way both versions of the deck can benefit from the power of uncommons. Let me know what you think about the feasability of the overall concept (as compared to an optimized non-Delverish High Tide combo in peasant legacy with standard sideboard options) and if you think it can be improved.
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I don't really get Memnite either. Seems like a really weak uncommon to have when you can only use 5. Ensoul Artifact seems so much better (5/5 indestructible or lifelink on turn 2? Yes please).
Legacy is very unkind to all-in combo decks that use creatures, because everything hits them, rather than just counterspells. Infect probably isn't the strongest choice in this setting.
Affinity is a force in Pauper because the creatures it has access to are huge and undercosted. In Legacy, however, they are mice among men. Have undercosted beaters is just not that impressive, unless they end the game immediately. Without Cranial Plating, Peasant Affinity just doesn't cut it. Can a deck really perform when it hinges on a single card to end the game? I agree with Zephyr Scarlet that you would probably need to include a good amount of countermagic to be able to compete with all the unfair things that are going on. Instead of being straight up Artifact Aggro, you'd go into more of a tempo route. I don't think Peasant Affinity will yield the results you're looking for.
About Counter-top, what decks are you playing against? You talk about Eldrazi often, so I assumed Sneak Show was in your meta. I play Reanimator myself, so doing unfair things is part of everyday Legacy. Top decks seem to be mid-rangy or tempo-y. No Aggro per se. But what are you playing against? I always thought of Counterbalance as UW deck, as that's often what it is in Legacy. You can technically have Counter-Top up on turn 2, but I think it would be most likely on turn 4. With the proper removal, you'd definitely have time to set up and slow someone down to a halt while you beat them with birds. I would explore that line further.
I think using Reset would have been too difficult, as restricting yourself to winning on your opponents' turn might have been too much. Turnabout can really do the job. I don't think Remand is necessary at taking up your uncommon slots. More Turnabouts or enablers might be better. There should be enough good countermagic at common to not have to use Remand.
There are a lot of things I would suggest for your deck, actually. But I think the better idea would be for you to take a look at that thread and see how he built his deck. NotMyName put an enormous amount of time into it, so I think his list would be an excellent starting point. Obviously adding uncommons might change quite a bit, but its an interesting place to start regardless.
1) Is Memnite so important as a singleton that it trumps Ensoul Artifact (to put on Citadel or Vault Skirge) as a singleton? And if it is, would you consider running Phyrexian Walker over (or in addition to) Frogmite as a substitute for the full playset? If the magic number of 0 costed dudes is dependent on the number of Drums you run (as I suspect it is), I think I'd rather have fewer drums and more chromatic stars to not be forced to spend U slots on Memnite.
It's another Uncommon that powers up Drum, adds for the artifact count and comes of for free, which adds pressure even if it's "just" a 1/1. I agree you could use another uncommon if you like too, because Memnite can look so underwhelming. But you won't need more than 5-6 one drops, in my Modern build I run the full four Drums and I go back and forth between 4 Ornithopters and 1-2 Memnite depending on the meta at the moment. However, I wouldn't cut Frogmite for Phyrexian Walker as Frogmite is simply a powerful card; it might not come as a 0 drop on the first turn but it can be easily cast for 0 in the second turn onwards, and it actually puts on pressure and trades with things without needing a Plating, and since Walker lacks evasion like Ornithopter it becomes the better one to draw in basically every draw step except your opening hand. If Walker had 4 toughness to dodge Lightning Bolt we would be talking about serious business, but as is, I prefer the Frog. That said, if you want to swap Memnite for another uncommon, I wouldn't consider Ensoul Artifact: except when cast on a Darksteel Citadel it will basically never stick around: there's so much hate in the format, and you will find out that 2 is a pretty steep price to pay in this kind of deck for things without added utility. The target will eat removal while this is on the stack and there will be nothing you can do about it because there's so much running rampant: Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay... plus it gets hit by Spell Pierce and Spell Snare as well. Running our 5th uncommon as a "maybe" 5/5 indestructible beater seems like a bit of a stretch. If Memnite doesn't please you I would look at a card like Shrapnel Blast, which can just finish a game if left uncountered.
2) Springleaf Drum - is 4 the correct number, as in, is it simply so powerful that you'd rather have redundant useless drums than use Chromatic Star?
Yes. Springleaf Drum is a continual source of mana in a deck that is basically rainbow between it's MB and SB and can be turn on as soon as turn 1 to accelerate into more drops, while Star is only a one-shot effect that takes 2 mana to work out. While it may cantrip, Drum stays around while performing it's funcgion which counts for both Plating and Atog.
3) What are your thoughts on the Perilous Research variant with 4 Chromatic Star? It looked promising to me with my specific parameters.
If you're playing in a Peasant environment it can work as long as you can fit in the Research and Stars. However, I feel it would be too clunky if you're playing in a real Legacy meta against full power Legacy decks (even if they're just in the lower tiers), and both cards on their own do not offer enough impact in a Legacy meta (Research provides no card advantage; it takes Research itself and another permanent to put two cards into your hand, so does Star).
4) Is Atog really important with access to Plating and Ensoul Artifact? It seems like a bad substitute especially considering an environment with Swords to Plowshares and a build with no Disciple or Fling. I think I'd rather have MOAR artifacts and draw to play more free Frogmites and Plating.
Yes. I cannot stress enough how important is Arcbound Ravager for the actual deck as the card that makes it tick even without Disciple or Fling. It's main function is not to eat everything and swing but to blank removal and make combat math miserable for your opponent, which has to play around it and consider that it can grow at any given moment, which makes him a must-deal-with threat alongside Plating and Pest. Plus, it puts a big psychological strain on opponents that don't know the deck by expecting a big Fling at every combat.
5) Have you considered Temur Battle Rage in addition to blasts, what are your thoughts on this card with access to plating etc?
Actually no, but now that you say it it could provide a nice reach and combat trick for when we desperately need to survive a combat phase or take down a bigger creature. Atog and Plating will love this as it can screw even more with combat math.
6) Seeing as BB will be hard to come by anyway for instant speed moving of Plating, do you think W or G for metalcraft dudes would be a better choice? Or is black much needed for hardcasting Skirge and sideboard options like Duress?
Black is needed so you can at least threaten to attach Plating at instant speed alongside for Sideboard options like you said. Plus there will be times where you will feel like hardcasting Skirge (against aggro or burn on low life). You might want to up the Black count in the manabase. As Upkeep said, I dislike Metalcraft beaters because they're just vanilla creatures that don't provide any value and can't even compete with the big boys on Legacy. While a Carapace Forger or Ardent Recruit work well in Pauper, in Legacy they will just get stonewalled and run over by threats like KoTR, Tarmo or Tasigur or dealt with super efficient removal.
About Counter-top, what decks are you playing against? You talk about Eldrazi often, so I assumed Sneak Show was in your meta.
My meta is hard to describe, but I'll give it a go: We are mostly a draft group of 6-12 players with 8 or so regulars, playing casual games of 1v1 and multiplayer legacy and EDH when we're not drafting. Everybody respects the legacy banlist, but you'd be hard pressed to call the meta "Legacy". The composition is roughly:
20% Competitive, established legacy decks: LED-less Dredge (I think 3 ppl have one), Zoo (no goyf), Reanimator with S&T, Burn. Very little control and no all out storm combo.
15% Competitive rogue or budget decks: Sac land tendrils with Burning Wish, non-budget GBW Rock with lots of LD/mana denial and removal (made top 8 at a local event), tuned creature based combos (I think I saw a mono blue Pili Pala build).
15% Semi-competitive, poorly tuned decks: This would be 12-post builds with Emrakul and friends that for some reason didn't bother to add Forest and Crop Rotation but still work sort of OK as mono-brown, but the player just couldn't be bothered to sit down and think about his build because "it's for casual". Or orzhov discard decks with suboptimal card choices.
15% Uncompetitive, thematic decks that are often surprisingly non-budget: For example UW flyers without Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, 2-drops or good cards in general, but lots of semi-expensive threats from Modern and maybe a fetchland or two.
15% Bizarre decks: This could mean decks with a true dual land that also run 3 CMC burn spells because all the Lightning Bolts were in other decks. Or really strange combos based on stuff like Door to Nothingness. Or uninteractive decks that "can win on turn 6 most of the time" etc.
20% Pauper/peasant decks: Some established archetypes, some homebrews that well... you know.
Overall, there is a clear tendancy to go for spectacular decks that do the unexpected, and also aggro or combo decks that don't really consider much what the opponent is doing. There is hardly any control and most don't really consider Counterspell etc when building decks. I adopt the pauper/peasant mantle mostly as a way to stimulate creativity in deck building (and keep it budget friendly), we don't really have a pauper/peasant environment, it's more free for all.
For me, it's more about the theoretical fact that a deck auto-loses to a deck with a certain card type in it that bugs me, more than the practical frequency of Eldrazi decks in my casual environment (at any rate less than 5% of the meta). I just find it not very elegant to build decks with that kind of a flaw. Also, I'm kind of iffy about using mill as a win con at all in yet another deck since I'm already using it in TurboFog and I'd rather vary myself for obvious reasons.
I like your High Tide deck! You should check out this thread for ideas. NotMyName took High Tide combo really far in Pauper.
Yes, I did find that one in my searches for inspiration. The big difference is he can use Frantic Search, but not Brain Freeze. So he has to go infinite with Archaeomancer and Ghostly Flicker, but has the luxury of an untapper and filterer all in one card. Transformational sideboards aside, the bottom line is this: Which is the stronger storm combo deck in Peasant clothing: Sac Land Tendrils or Spring Tide? Even at non-Peasant budget, Spring Tide is clearly the less popular choice and that's with access to Cunning Wish and Blue Sun's Zenith as a convenient alt wincon. I'm certain a workable Peasant Spring Tide could be fashioned, but would it be better than SLT without Burning Wish? Power level aside, the upside for my group with Spring Tide is we don't have it in our group yet (there's already a non-Peasant SLT there). The downside is the mill wincon that duplicates TurboFog and requires a need for something else in the board. I know I want a combo deck, but I have a hard time choosing.
I probably won't make another control deck until I have something tangible in combo and aggro (most likely affinity). But I will say that TurboFog has been immensly successful and fun (for me mostly) in my meta. Mostly, it just kills 90% of scrubby aggro and scrubby combo which is a huge part of the meta. It also has decent game against Zoo and Dredge on the more competitive side of things, and a fair chance against storm combo. I think it will be hard to make a Peasant control deck that can rival its power in my specific circumstances. I don't think even Delver or MBC would be better.
@Zephyr: You've given me lots to think about. I'm a control player at heart, but I know I want at least one aggro deck to whip out when I really feel like beating face and I think Affinity will do that for me. I'll ponder your arguments for a while and get back with a list.
EDIT: I've found a proven competitive Spring Tide list that seems suitable for Peasantification, Sebastian Offner's list from day 2 and Grand Prix Lille in 2005:
It's mostly the 4 Snap and 4 Cloud of Faeries that make me want to go for a Delver sideboard. Going Peasant with the main deck yields:
Fetches -> Islands obviously
Cunning Wish, Force of Will, Misdirection: 4x Counterspell and quite possibly a few Spellstutter Sprite too if going with the transformational sideboard.
Meditate - > Accumulated Knowledge. Has the advantage of being a decent draw spell even in a Delver shell, rather than unplayable in such a shell.
Serum Vision/Sleight of Hand - > Ponder/Preordain are obviously better. I'm gonna go with 4 and probably put the remaining slots to Spellstutter Sprites.
This should yield a fairly solid combo deck with plenty of disruption against opposing decks and a strong transformational sideboard that will unfortunately take up quite a bit of space. Turnabout, Brain Freeze, Ideas Unbound and High Tide (13 cards total) are all musts to board out. Maybe there's room for trimming somewhat, but there will be little left of actual sideboard space to handle stuff like Dredge (probably faster than either mode of the deck, and quite immune to counters).
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If you're a Control player then I'm sure you'll get the gist on how to pilot Affinity fairly quick, since it's not just turning guys sideways like a RDW deck would do, but more about combat math and threatening lethal. Affinity wins by screwing with combat math and then punishing and capitalizing on bad blocking decisions, and although Arcbound Ravager and to a lesser extent the Nexi add a lot of depth, complexity and tricks to the deck you can still bluff a good part of Ravager tricks with Atog.
I would focus on the pre-Scars of Mirrodin era, where you didn't have Inkmoth Nexus, Steel Overseer, Mox Opal or Etched Champion yet the deck was so powerful that it got bans all across the table. The only core rares were Arcbound Ravager, for which you have a passable substitute that has been already discussed, Blinkmoth Nexus which can be substituted by Mishra's Factory (keep in mind it doesn't fly and that you have to distribute the slots between Pest and this) and Glimmervoid, which has no real substitute but since it's just a Rainbow land it doesn't matter too much.
If you like, you can delve into the Black splash for some Disciple of the Vault which complicate the board state even more and add some more reach, but you'll have to rework the creature base and the artifact count as well as the Black sources. Furthermore, I wouldn't underestimate Spell Pierce in a format like Legacy: where a 40%-50%+ of a deck are non-creature spells it can basically mean an additional turn of damage by timewalking an opponent or protecting one of your bombs in the key turn for the win for such a low investment.
About a Control deck I'm thinking about UBx Mystical Teachings loaded up with removal, counters and silver bullets with either ThopterSword and something else as a finisher, or CounterTop alongside cards like Muddle the Mixture which you can chain from Teachings to tutor another piece of the combo. You will need something to stall though, since that will be incredibly slow, but the toolbox that Teachings + Transmute tutors can offer will be quite high. Keep in mind that while not stellar outside of traditional Pauper, you also have access to Gurmag Angler. Maybe we could take this into 8-Post territory as a mana engine to gain life and for powering up the Teachings? You could even splash Green to fetch for a singleton Havenwood Wurm and some Green silver bullets.
Althought not combo per-se don't forget you can run a good old UG Madness shell with 2 Wonder and 3 Force of Will as your uncommons and place pretty well.
Just chiming in to say I'm really looking forward to polishing up a few peasant power houses with you guys (and anyone else who cares to chime in I'm having a gut feeling that Mishra's Factory will be my 5th uncommon, but I'm not quite sure. I'm almost completely certain that abandoning Perilous Research is the way to go for Affinity though.
As for control, I'm thinking about exploring UBx post with 2-3 Teachings, 1-2 Muddle and 3-4 slots for ThopterSword combo with 1-2 for other uncommon bombs. But it shall have to wait!
I have spent most of my free time today scavaging a 26-or-so page thread on Spring Tide at the Source (my what an obnoxious site that is compared to our cozy paper pauper forum) and I'm learning lots. I think Peasant spring tide has wicked potential, and right now Prosperity might even be a better way to go than Brain Freeze + alt win cons against mill blockers. I shall keep reading (and hopefully not cry for humanity as I go to sleep).
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I have spent the last two days focusing on a Peasant Spring Tide list and it is shaping up very nicely. I've come as a far as I can take it now, but maybe your input can help tweak it further:
Most card choices don't need explaining. Suffice to say that the gist of reading 30+ pages of commentary on Spring Tide is that you want the above 11 untap effects and 7 CA spells (2 Compulsive Research and 1 Careful Consideration are the best replacements for 3 Meditate). The beauty of the main deck is that ALL the cards are relevant for the combo which allows the deck to go off on turn 3-4 with extreme consistency, while still acheiving strong game 1 protection:
Brainstorm + Conjurer's Bauble: Draw cards but also defend against discard on Brain Freeze/High Tide.
Turnabout: Combo piece that also defends against counters by tapping down EOT and then proceeding to go off, like a much improved Toils of Night and Day.
Gitaxian Probe: Free draw that also answers the important question when trying to go off on t3 against a non-control opponent with mana open: Does he have removal on CoF in response to Snap? I think 3 is the right number because you never know what your life total is when going off, but 4 might be better still.
Muddle the Mixture: Tutorable protection if needed game 1, but also tutors uncounterably for the kill mid combo, or for more draw/untap. A good substitute for Cunning Wish.
Echoing Truth: Game 1 protection against all sorts of nasty things, but also a combo piece - bouncing 2 CoF is nearly as mana effecient as snapping one, and bouncing 3 is actually stronger!
As for the sideboard:
Spell Pierce: Against Chalice, Counterbalance, trinisphere, faster combo, hymn to tourach - most problems the deck can suffer really. Low cost is crucial and 2 tax is just enough to get there in the early turns when it matters.
Relic: Against dredge and reanimator
Gigadrowse: An improved but strictly offensive Turnabout games 2-3 against permission control.
Piracy Charm: The little card that could: Kill Mother of Runes before she untaps to protect Thalia and other hatebears, kill said hatebears on its own, kill your own CoF to take out Bridge from Below, kill Goblin Lackey, kill Vault Skirge in response to equip etc - pretty much all the aggro problems that can race or lock out.
Vision Charm: What a useful little card! It's a tutorable mana source for my alt win con, but it also takes out problematic artifacts, denies mana, messes with library manipulation etc.
Grapeshot: Boarded with Vision Charm against decks with mill immunity. Conveniently found by Muddle the Mixture!
Capsize: Bounce of choice against Chalice/CB but can also go infinite with enough high tides and a CoF and bounce the opponent to bits if needed.
Curfew: Silver bullet against reanimator, show and tell, hexproof auras etc - things that can arguably race the deck.
Let me know what you think! I shall meanwhile turn my full attention to Affinity
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I completely forgot Frantic Search was banned in Legacy! That solves that!
Thanks for taking the time of sharing your metagame. Now I'm not at all surprised that Turbo Fog is doing so well for you!
About your High Tide list:
I think it looks fantastic, actually! I don't have much to say. I think your alternate win condition is a bit ambitious. Is this really necessary?
Considering that you're not going to be winning at instant speed, I would cut Careful Consideration for another Compulsive Research and add the fourth Turnabout. That card is awesome, and there's plenty of good draw at common so you don't need to take up the precious uncommon slots for them.
Why two Conjurer's Bauble? I get you can play them over and over again to get some extra storm if ever you draw your entire deck, but I don't think this is a likely scenario. Wouldn't a singleton just be better? Maybe a maindeck Spell Pierce could be really good here.
@Upkeep: The alt win con is probably more placebo than anything, but it makes me smile inwardly knowing I have my bases covered. The idea with Careful Consideration was to have a draw spell target for Scrolls that you draw into while going off. However, I realize this could also be achieved by chaining via Muddle the Mixture -> Ideas Unbound. That's 2+3+2=7 mana to draw 3 and keep 3 vs 2+4=6 mana to draw 4 and keep 2. So yeah, hardly worth spending an uncommon slot on. Preliminary gold fishing seems to indicate that 11 untappers are enough, but the extra Turnabout can't hurt - especially in a real game 1 against anything with counters.
Conjurer's Bauble was included to prevent catastrophy such as turn 1 Duress taking Brain Freeze (or to a lesser extent, Surgical Extraction on High Tide). It's actually pretty good as a pre paid cantrip that doesn't use up mana while going off. Going down to 1 makes room for the 4th Turnabout, but puts greater strain on finding the saving Bauble when needed to recover a key card though. Another option would be Archaeomancer... 3 mana more is A LOT, but if you consider that you were probably going to need to use Merchant Scroll to fish out whatever you put back anyway, then it's just 1 mana more and it's really Merchant Scroll #5. He also goes infinite with just one High Tide and one Snap and one other untap effect with 3 Islands in play.
So changes would be:
-1 Careful Consideration
+1 Turnabout
+1 Compulsive Research
-1 or -2 Conjurer's Bauble
+1 or +0 Archaeomancer
Thoughts?
@Zephyr: I've started ironing out an Affinity build. I think I'm gonna go with 1 Thopter Foundry as my final uncommon (it was mentioned in the legacy affinity primer as a solid 1-2 of - seems perfect without access to Ravager). I'm also going down to 3 Atog then with the 4th in the SB, as I'd rather have Atog + Foundry than double Atog. I'll probably fit fully 3 Spell Pierce in the main too, with the last in the board.
I contemplated using Somber Hoverguard instead of Myr Enforcer because 4/4 is not very big on the ground and toughness 4 is less of a magical limit in legacy, but then I discovered Faerie Mechanist. FOUR unsubsidized mana is perhaps too much for the deck, but doesn't seem unrealistic as a rather kick ass 3-drop off a Drum and 3 lands (which, counting 22 sources and 4 draw-2s, should be fairly doable). With 2-3 mechanists and 4 Thoughtcast, I should be bringing Cranial Plating in contact with my opponent's face every game.
If the Mechanist is deemed too mana intensive, I'm considering a balls-to-the-walls explosive build with 2-3 Lotus Petal instead and no basic lands. Thoughts?
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I think that the archaeomancer just gives you more options for going off. I would probably go for that. It also returns the card to your hand rather than to the bottom, so you don't have to have a tutor to go off. Seems like a winner.
All your proposed changes seem excellent to me. Can we see an updated list?
Once you have infinite mana and two Archaeomancers, you can just copy Deep Analysis targeting the opponent until they draw their deck and can't play anymore. Because they eventually draw their Eldrazi, it gets stuck in hand and they die. Not to mention all of those pieces are still good for your combo. Just an idea!
I agree about the Thopter Foundry: it's a pretty good substitute for Arcbound Ravager, and you need more than one Mishra's Factory to make it count with it's pumping ability anyways, and it doesn't fly.
However, I wouldn't even test Faerie Mechanist: 4 mana is A LOT to pay for a deck like this for a glorified flying Ponder. Consider it this way: if Ponder costs just U, are you comfortable paying 3 for a flying 2/2 in Legacy? Don't worry about conecting Platings since Pests, Skirges, Ornithopters and the tokens from Foundry seem more than enough to go for that. With 4 copies of Plating and 4 Thoughtcast you'll pretty much draw it every game.
About Somber Hoverguard vs Myr Enforcer: Hoverguard has Delver-esque stats but he's no Delver, and Enforcer has Tarmogoyf-esque stats but he's no Tarmo. It all boils down to personal preference. However, I would choose Enforcer simply because he's boltproof, adds to the Artifact count, can be sacrificed, and can be potentially free, where Hoverguard won't cost less than U at any given time.
I'm all for the Petals as a poor man's Mox Opal in the hyper aggressive build. However, I would leave at least 1 basic land as a concession to Path to Exile.
After these adjustments, you might want to add Disciple of the Vault since he's too good to pass right now. You even have self-sacrificing "lands" in Petals, which basically reads "Sacrifice Lotus Petal: Add a mana of any color to your mana pool and Lotus Petal deals X damage to target opponent, where X is the number of Disciple of the Vault in play". He's even a pseudo Blood Artist with Foundry on the battlefield.
On a different note, about the UBx Teachings, what about a shell like this?
Husher as a 5th uncommon can go a long mile protecting you from Wastelands which are a bane to 8 Posts decks, alongside stopping cold all triggered abilities, including Planeswalkers, and acting as a repeatable Stifle against decks with greedy manabases and lots of fetchlands. With the number of Instants you will be playing, you can protect her quite easily, and a 4CMC cost isn't that steep on a Cloudpost engine. I would load up on some number of ways for recurring lost artifacts for Foundry and for recovering lands though. You could also have an interesting, fetcheable B plan in Havenwood Wurm.
On Spring Tide: In fact, Deep Analysis appears to be the better draw spell comparing with Compulsive Research, so I'm glad Upkeep mentioned it. I've usually played all land in my hand when going off, and I don't exactly prioritize getting dead land in my hand when playing cantrips on the combo turn. With 16 lands, playing Research without a land in hand often leads to an overcosted cantrip, whereas Deep Analysis can deliver a whopping 4 cards from one card as long as you have the mana to spend. With all the untap effects, it really seems like the better choice.
The inclusion of Archaeomancer has really been an eye-opener for me. I know it was part of NotMyName's original build, but since I saw no mention of it in any legacy spring tide threads, I dismissed it as a poor man's substitute. That was probabably wrong, and I'm actually amazed that legacy lists are not running this little gem. He is precisely what the deck was missing: an engine. In a Snap-based deck, he is essentially a blue Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains.
Ghostly Flicker is nothing to scoff at either. Many don't realize it hits LANDS too, so it is as efficient as a Toils of Night and Day for going off and producing mana ON ITS OWN. With Archaeomancer and Cloud of Faeries on the table, it achieves infinite mana and storm as easy as can be. This is such a huge benefit, because it opens up a whole new angle of play. Before, the deck was simply hoping not to fizzle when going off - you can never be sure that you'll get the right mix of draw and mana up to 15+ storm with a scroll to spare. Now you can still do that, or simply draw into Archaeomancer and everything will be OK. Once you do, you can be pretty sure to have a Faerie in play and a Merchant Scroll in the yard while under the effect of at least one High Tide. So you play the mancer, recur the scroll, get Ghostly Flicker, go infinite, recur the scroll again and infinite Brain Freeze. All you need is a singleton Flicker.
Running two mancers seems optimal (in fact, they and the singleton Muddle the Mixture take the place of Cunning Wish in the typical legacy build). So this makes the alternate win con actually part of the main deck. The best option IMO is to run Capsize as the mainboard bounce of choice. This lets you draw your deck after going infinite with one mancer, thus finding the second mancer and assembling the Deep Analysis + Flicker engine. Before you start targeting the opponent, you can then Capsize his board to ensure he doesn't draw into instant speed hate. You can even be immune to Force of Will on Ghostly Flicker by Capsizing a mancer in response to recover the flicker - it's UNSTOPPABLE!
I think only a few afterthoughts remain. I feel like I'm not really making the most of my sideboard. Wipe Away and Rebuild are two powerful answers that might merit cutting 1-2 Turnabout now that I have more ways of going off. This would entail re-adding Preordain to the main. 4 Probes might be too much consider Deep Analysis comes with life loss too, so maybe a probe will go for a Preordain then too.
On Affinity: Disciples were a really tight fit, see the list below. I loved the basic land PtE tech and decided to go with Mountain since I had more red requirements (not counting Vault Skirge and Plating) than black/blue. I had to put Fling and Spell Pierce in the board to make room. I decided to go with Stars instead of Petals, as I'd rather pay one mana more and get a card when I sac it (either for fixing or to feed Atog/Foundry). I'm not sure what more can be tweaked, but I'm very open to your suggestions. IMO, the list looks really wicked now.
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On Affinity: Disciples were a really tight fit, see the list below. I loved the basic land PtE tech and decided to go with Mountain since I had more red requirements (not counting Vault Skirge and Plating) than black/blue. I had to put Fling and Spell Pierce in the board to make room. I decided to go with Stars instead of Petals, as I'd rather pay one mana more and get a card when I sac it (either for fixing or to feed Atog/Foundry). I'm not sure what more can be tweaked, but I'm very open to your suggestions. IMO, the list looks really wicked now.
I'd rather use the Lotus Petal since a card in hand isn't worth the extra two mana (you counted just 1 extra mana for the cantrip but it's actually 2 since Lotus Petal costs 0 and Chromatic Star costs 1 plus 1 to sacrifice, thus merely filtering your mana and not accelerating) from a deck like this that seeks out to get the most bang for your buck and kill quickly. Even if it offers card disadvantage, the possibility of a T1 land, thopter, drum, petal, two one-drops / one two-drop / Frogmite + Thoughtcast to refill your hand or a Plating is what makes the deck so strong even in bigger formats. The ton of super explosive openers that can be had in nearly any combination that doesn't involve Myr Enforcer (unless you had a godhand powered by some Thoughtcast to get to 7 artifacts) is what makes the deck so fast and powerful. I would also trim down at least two mana sources for Spell Pierce since it's just such a good card to have maindeck to protect your wincons, force the last points of damage through removal, fight FoW, or simply buying an extra turn for U.
OK, I'm trusting your experience on the petals! Still, I don't think I can trim any mana sources. 17 land, 4 Drum and 2 Petal seems like the frugal minimum.
Also, while covering key plays with Spell Pierce sounds really nice, I don't think the mana base supports it even as is. At least not if we're talking about covering an Atog, Foundry or Galvanic Blast. Having RU+ on the same turn is asking a lot I think. Backing up Thoughtcast is probably not possible at all, but perhaps it's not so much a priority. It might be more feasible if I'm replacing colored stuff like Disciple, but not colorless stuff and least of all mana sources. This is not legacy affinity with Mox Opal and Glimmervoid. Nor is it pauper affinity with 4 Chromatic Star and 4 Chromatic Sphere to back up artifact lands and drums. I'm already running 15 hard color requirements and have the shakiest mana base of any affinity deck I've seen so far.
I think it comes down to main deck Disciple or main deck Spell Pierce. Which would you choose?
EDIT: Forgot to mention, that with the recent developments on my TurboFog list, I'm postponing development and interest in any other peasant control deck indefinetely. I want to actually learn to pilot these two decks + the updated TurboFog list before I expand my casual arsenal further - if that even proves necessary. I'm glad the Foundry found its way into the Affinity list however - seems like such a strong card!
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I'm glad you like the Archaeomancer tech. NotMyName knew what he was doing, for sure.
It's extremely difficult to build a functional sideboard for pure combo decks like these (and an art form to know what to board out/in against many matchups). I also think 4x Probe is too much. I would actually cut two and put the Preordains back in (or maybe even another draw spell). I like the Turnabouts because they protect and enable your combo all at once (I forgot to mention this, but High Tide affects all islands, not just yours, so it's pretty important to tap down an opponent or be able to fight through their counters, or else they have tons of mana available). If not, you can bring out the big guns. Use two of your uncommon slots and run Force of Will.
When I was very well practiced with the deck, I could get a turn 2-3 kill over %50 of the time. Riddlesmith is hands down the best card in the deck. I wonder if it would be possible to play this in Peasant without the actual Odyssey eggs?
Oh the memories! I'll have you know that sunrise eggs was the first legacy deck I ever actually built. That must be over 10 years ago. Man, that deck crumbled to FoW (or counters in general... and Duress) like no other deck I've played. But it sure does put a smile on my face still. I'd love to help build a peasant version once I've finished these
As for the spring tide, it feels much more solid to just wait to turn 4 to tap control down than hoping to have one of two FoWs at hand - they also do nothing for the combo. That said, Rebuild could be a huge play in the affinity match-up, indeed even necessary since it's difficult to deny them Spell Pierce mana with Turnabout (and waiting to turn 4 is hardly an option anyway). It's good against scepter in the TurboFog matchup too! I think it looks indispensible for my own kitchen table mini-meta. Wipe Away is probably not as important though - I'd rather have the third Turnabout.
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I just find using an uncommon slot just for a singleton sideboard card against only a single deck is a bit of a waste. The affinity matchup shouldn't be that big of a deal. Counter their equipment. tap down their biggest attacker(s). I think this deck has what it takes to really slow them down and just win. I'd play 3 Steel Sabotage maybe instead. Returning an artifact to their hand can be just as damaging as countering it.
I'll start a new thread on peasant eggs so as not to derail this one with yet another build project
I noticed the Spring Tide deck was missing its second land drop more often than I assumed it would so I ran some numbers (hypergeometric distributions) to see what gives. To make a long story short, I can now say with some confidence that this deck cannot go below a whopping 28 cards that are either Island or 1 CMC dig. And I'm pretty sure the ideal is 17 Island, 4 Portent, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Preordain. A few choice numbers that were eye openers for me:
*17 lands = 8.3% risk of 0 lands in opener. Go down to 16 and that's 9.9%. Go up to 18 and it drops to 7.0%. However, 17 land is the optimum number for getting exactly 2 land in your opener.
*28 lands + cantrips = 7.4% risk of 1 or less in hand which is a mulligan. You must accept hands with 1 Island and only 1 dig, or else you'll mull 27% of the time even with 28 sources, for this reason alone! Go down to 27 sources and the risk of having one or less climbs above that of risk of 0 lands, which is bad.
*With 28 sources, a hand of 1 land + 1 cantrip has a 94% chance of digging up another land or cantrip by turn 2 (assuming you see 4 cards beyond your opener, which is "worse case" i.e. on the play and no Ponder). If it's another cantrip and you still haven't found your second land, cantripping again on t2 will get your land drop about 80% of the time. This is acceptable, but there will still be games where you just won't make your second land drop. Free draw from Gitaxian Probe can help mitigate this a bit, but the fact remains.
*Assuming 1 cantrip = 1 land (which is really not how it works, but OK), you still won't make land drop #4 more than 80% of the time, which is really key to the Turnabout denial (sounds like a Phoenix Wright episode..) plan. So half your friggin deck is lands and cantrips and you STILL won't drop land 4 on turn 4 more than 80% of the time, counting nicely. And trying to finance an offensive Turnabout with High Tide can backfire spectacularly when you think about it.
I think this makes it clear that you can't really go below 28 lands + cantrips unless you want to lose to your own deck. I'm even contemplating adding a singleton Impulse to recruit Merchant Scroll in the task of finding enough land to cast Turnabout offensively (I'd feel more comfortable getting Impulse than Brainstorm for this purpose with 17 land in the deck - Traumatic Visions is an even surer thing, but also a rube of a card).
I've also goldfished the Affinity list some more, and while it's certainly powerful, three primary colors gives me headaches. Cutting the Disciples for Spell Pierce and adding an Island over a Vault of Whispers made it feel a lot more solid though - I only really have to worry about red and blue then with black mana being a nice bonus (exception: Thopter Foundry, but it's a singleton that's not really a 2-drop anyway). I doubt I'll add many black cards to the sideboard - it'll just make me lose to my own mana base and I have plenty to choose from in blue and red already. If fact, SB suggestions in these colors are very welcome!
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The first two links show calculations I've done in the previous Burn primer. I determined that the optimal number of lands (requiring two in the opening hand and a subsequent land within four turns) was 21. An argument could be made for any ranging base from 18-22 lands without much statistical difference.
The third link I think is worth looking at again (I'm sure you've already seen it), just for the winning lists posted by ExpiredRascals that date from December 2014. I consider these lists to be reliable precedents to what is a "playable" number of lands in a High Tide combo deck. Even in his section on lands, he explains a total of 17-20 lands is perfectly reasonable. If you look at the winning lists, you'll also see they have a very similar amount of draw/filter cards to you (of varying strength of course. Some spells are weaker because they want to go off at instant speed, others are stronger because they are rare). Knowing that these winning lists have such a low land count should indicate what is feasible in your own version.
Blue decks running tons of cantrips like you are can get away with a lower land count and still hit their land drops. Cantrips and library manipulation warp the statistics immensely.
I think it's important to come to terms with the fact that when using a combo deck, you're more likely to fizzle than with any other strategy. That does not mean combo is bad. You just need to be well practiced and be very aware of your decks' limits.
Ah, so you like hypergeometric distributions too! Did you not notice that I, who authored that Burn primer, had already done those calculations and of course reached the same conclusion in the opening post some 230 pages back? 21 lands indeed give the highest odds of 2-3 land openers.
The problem in High Tide combo, as ExpiredRascals notes, is that you're tempted to run fewer lands because they are mostly worthless when going off. I wish his primer discussed keepable hands more though, because I'm wondering how he feels about keeping 1 land hands in the 17-land build he favors. If he does, and he runs 8 cantrips and Opt only digs 2 cards deep, I'm not liking his odds of making that second drop on a kept 1-lander. And really, since Solidarity is sort of a control deck with a combo finish (not at all like Spring Tide), I really don't think 1-landers should be kept. No other control deck would. OTOH, if he doesn't keep 1-landers, why would he prefer 17 lands over 19? He must then mull 35% of the time due to land shortage alone, rather than 28% of the time with 19 lands. Is the increase mull ratio really worth a couple of less land when going off?
(Also, I think Solidarity should run a more ridiculous amount of fetches. Let's say they combo on turn 4 and run 20 lands in the deck (because these are nice numbers). If half the lands are fetches (and not even half are), there'll be 14 lands left in the deck. If 75% are fetches though, there'll only be 13 lands left. Basically, there's no need to run more Islands than your latest possible fundamental turn. If Solidarity doesn't really care about it's 8th Island and beyond, there's no reason to run more than 7 Island.)
Anyway, Spring Tide is thankfully a different deck that doesn't need to compromise being both Combo and Control at the same time. The Faeries + Snap engine typically goes off on turn 3 (if it doesn't need to use Turnabout preemptively). This makes it singularly interested in finding that second land - the third land drop can be found on t3 while going off with Ideas Unbound for instance. This in turn allows it to cut land and stock up on those powerful sorcery cantrips that dig deeper and find the land. Solidarity however needs to rely more on Impulse worries about drops 3 and 4 instead, which means it probably can't take a chance on 1-landers and should probably run closer to 20 lands than 16.
Oh, and this is actually me being lazy If it's something I can't be bothered with, it's goldfishing 20+ hands to determine how many lands I should run (an exercise in confirmational bias and futility, btw), or wondering about if I should keep a certain hand when I'm actually playing the deck against a friend. I'll have plenty of other things to think about then, so I want to understand the exact whys and hows of the deck beforehand. That way, I know that if I fizzle I'm just being fooled by randomness and not my own sub-optimal plays and builds. This way, I have more fun!
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1) Best storm combo deck?
Options are sac land tendrils (no burning wish obv, but Tendrils is fine) or high tide with acess to brain freeze and prosperity or even reset. I think SLT has the edge, but solidarity isn't bad either (but a few Reset would cost me).
2) Best aggro deck?
Is it infect with invigorate or affinity with plating? I suppose affinity gains more from uncommons than invigorate, barring Berserk (Signal Pest is pretty crucial to modern legacy builds). I'm guessing affinity here.
3) Best control deck?
Not sure if there is a "best build" but I guess it's Ubr post with Thopter/Sword combo, or some version of MBC or MUC (though MUC probably gains more from uncommons, FoW of course but also Propaganda, Counterbalance and other important tools). Any ideas here?
I'm unsure about how archetypes like Astral Slide and TurboFog would fare in this comparison, but I suppose they are worse. As for aggro control, I'm pretty sure Delver with improved uncommon counters etc would reign surpreme. Wouldn't mind a cheapish, peasant Delver list though, if someone would like to share.
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I could definitely see something like this for a counterbalance deck:
1 Sensei's Divining Top (u)
4 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
On top of other spicy Trinket Mage targets, you could make a really kick-ass control deck.
I see Infect as more of a Combo deck than an Aggro deck (you're dumping a bunch of cards into a single attack for the win, rather than having many relevant threats attacking at once). Regardless, I'm sure it's extremely potent, particularly with Berserk.
I get the feeling High Tide would be the best bet. But does it have the tools to use Reset? What card would you use to win on the opponents' turn?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I wonder if the prevalence of cheap, instant speed removal and ample blockers is what's prevented infect from being much of a thing in legacy or even much of a problem in peasant. Affinity with plating has been a force in pretty much all formats where it has been legal though, so I'm guessing it is stronger (and cheaper than Berserk).
Solidarity would use Brain Freeze to win on opp turn, but this would require a build with all instants since stuff like Preordain/Ponder are duds while going off in such a scenario. I'm not sure this is the best bet for peasant since you don't have cunning wish and Stroke of Genius against eldrazi etc. With no rares, I'm thinking sorcery speed and abusing merchant scroll is a better bet, maybe even with a Delver transformational sideboard (you're already running snap, faeries, cantrips and counters). Looking at the two storm archetypes, I think the pros and cons would be:
Wishless SLT: built in resilience to counters, can only run 3-4 protection (duress typically) main, cheap to build
Peasant reset/high tide: obvious counter targets (high tide, merchant scroll) but can run main deck protection that can even be part of the combo (snap against hate bears, Rewind and land tappers against control). Will need something to not auto-lose to eldrazi though, which will probably mean running 3 Prosperity and singleton Brain Freeze and Reset as tutor targets.
Looking forward to your reflections on this. What's with the nick change, btw?
EDIT: Speaking of countertop, what about fitting the following five uncommons in zephyr's UW CawBlade shell?
2 Counterbalance
1 SDT
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Thopter Foundry
The sword synergizes well with all the birds too. Just add 3 Muddle the mixture to get the combo or CB when it matters the most. Foundry can also eat artifact lands etc. Requires a slightly greater blue commitment I think, but that's rarely a bad thing
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1 Memnite (u)
4 Signal Pest (u)
4 Atog
4 Ornithopter
4 Vault Skirge
4 Cranial Plating
4 Springleaf Drum
Noncreature Spells (8)
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Thoughtcast
Lands (18)
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
3 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Island
1 Mountain
You have 52 cards there, leaving you with 8 flex slots to use as you wish. Obvious inclusions would be 3-4 Frogmite and 2-3 Myr Enforcer, leaving you with 2-3 more spots for either Spell Pierce or even more mana acceleration like Prophetic Prism. Here's a list:
1 Memnite (u)
4 Signal Pest (u)
4 Atog
4 Frogmite
2 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Vault Skirge
4 Cranial Plating
4 Springleaf Drum
Noncreature Spells (10)
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Thoughtcast
2 Spell Pierce
Lands (18)
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
3 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Island
1 Mountain
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
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1) Is Memnite so important as a singleton that it trumps Ensoul Artifact (to put on Citadel or Vault Skirge) as a singleton? And if it is, would you consider running Phyrexian Walker over (or in addition to) Frogmite as a substitute for the full playset? If the magic number of 0 costed dudes is dependent on the number of Drums you run (as I suspect it is), I think I'd rather have fewer drums and more chromatic stars to not be forced to spend U slots on Memnite.
2) Springleaf Drum - is 4 the correct number, as in, is it simply so powerful that you'd rather have redundant useless drums than use Chromatic Star?
3) What are your thoughts on the Perilous Research variant with 4 Chromatic Star? It looked promising to me with my specific parameters.
4) Is Atog really important with access to Plating and Ensoul Artifact? It seems like a bad substitute especially considering an environment with Swords to Plowshares and a build with no Disciple or Fling. I think I'd rather have MOAR artifacts and draw to play more free Frogmites and Plating.
5) Have you considered Temur Battle Rage in addition to blasts, what are your thoughts on this card with access to plating etc?
6) Seeing as BB will be hard to come by anyway for instant speed moving of Plating, do you think W or G for metalcraft dudes would be a better choice? Or is black much needed for hardcasting Skirge and sideboard options like Duress?
I'll present a build suggestion of my own after I hear your thoughts on this questions.
Now for the other decks discussed above - I really got hooked on the idea of a peasant high tide deck with a transformational Delver sideboard. So here it goes:
16 Island
DELVERISH UNTAPPERS (7)
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
CORE COMBO (9)
4 High Tide
2 Ideas Unbound
2 Turnabout (u)
1 Brain Freeze (u)
COUNTERS (10)
4 Counterspell
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Remand (u)
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Repeal
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Spire Golem
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Curfew
1 Echoing Truth
1 Piracy Charm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
The sideboarding strategy for game 2 is to board out the core combo package for the 9 creatures, thus acheiving a Delver deck and completely throwing off opposing sideboard strategies and play tactics. Typically, one of the 4 Merchant Scroll will also be swapped for the most relevant of the singleton SB instants. Merchant Scroll + Accumulated Knowledge is actually a fairly decent draw engine. Conjurer's Bauble can keep it going, but its main purpose is to prevent disaster if something happens to Brain Freeze game 1, or to get more effective copies of Turnabout to fish out with the scroll (also works well with sideboarded singletons if they need an encore appearance).
The 8 creatures do a good job game 1 of stalling against aggro to get enough Islands into play, and eventually forcing control to spend resources on a nuiscance - all while also being combo pieces/protection. I chose Remand as my final uncommon slots - it's an established part of Solidarity's protection suite as well as a strong tempo card in Delver, so that way both versions of the deck can benefit from the power of uncommons. Let me know what you think about the feasability of the overall concept (as compared to an optimized non-Delverish High Tide combo in peasant legacy with standard sideboard options) and if you think it can be improved.
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Legacy is very unkind to all-in combo decks that use creatures, because everything hits them, rather than just counterspells. Infect probably isn't the strongest choice in this setting.
Affinity is a force in Pauper because the creatures it has access to are huge and undercosted. In Legacy, however, they are mice among men. Have undercosted beaters is just not that impressive, unless they end the game immediately. Without Cranial Plating, Peasant Affinity just doesn't cut it. Can a deck really perform when it hinges on a single card to end the game? I agree with Zephyr Scarlet that you would probably need to include a good amount of countermagic to be able to compete with all the unfair things that are going on. Instead of being straight up Artifact Aggro, you'd go into more of a tempo route. I don't think Peasant Affinity will yield the results you're looking for.
About Counter-top, what decks are you playing against? You talk about Eldrazi often, so I assumed Sneak Show was in your meta. I play Reanimator myself, so doing unfair things is part of everyday Legacy. Top decks seem to be mid-rangy or tempo-y. No Aggro per se. But what are you playing against? I always thought of Counterbalance as UW deck, as that's often what it is in Legacy. You can technically have Counter-Top up on turn 2, but I think it would be most likely on turn 4. With the proper removal, you'd definitely have time to set up and slow someone down to a halt while you beat them with birds. I would explore that line further.
I like your High Tide deck! You should check out this thread for ideas. NotMyName took High Tide combo really far in Pauper. I tried out his list personally, and they are very good. He used Toils of Night and Day extremely well as either a way to protect or enable his combo (post #36 is great). http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/casual-related-formats/paper-pauper-peasant/476759-high-tide-combo
I think using Reset would have been too difficult, as restricting yourself to winning on your opponents' turn might have been too much. Turnabout can really do the job. I don't think Remand is necessary at taking up your uncommon slots. More Turnabouts or enablers might be better. There should be enough good countermagic at common to not have to use Remand.
There are a lot of things I would suggest for your deck, actually. But I think the better idea would be for you to take a look at that thread and see how he built his deck. NotMyName put an enormous amount of time into it, so I think his list would be an excellent starting point. Obviously adding uncommons might change quite a bit, but its an interesting place to start regardless.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
It's another Uncommon that powers up Drum, adds for the artifact count and comes of for free, which adds pressure even if it's "just" a 1/1. I agree you could use another uncommon if you like too, because Memnite can look so underwhelming. But you won't need more than 5-6 one drops, in my Modern build I run the full four Drums and I go back and forth between 4 Ornithopters and 1-2 Memnite depending on the meta at the moment. However, I wouldn't cut Frogmite for Phyrexian Walker as Frogmite is simply a powerful card; it might not come as a 0 drop on the first turn but it can be easily cast for 0 in the second turn onwards, and it actually puts on pressure and trades with things without needing a Plating, and since Walker lacks evasion like Ornithopter it becomes the better one to draw in basically every draw step except your opening hand. If Walker had 4 toughness to dodge Lightning Bolt we would be talking about serious business, but as is, I prefer the Frog. That said, if you want to swap Memnite for another uncommon, I wouldn't consider Ensoul Artifact: except when cast on a Darksteel Citadel it will basically never stick around: there's so much hate in the format, and you will find out that 2 is a pretty steep price to pay in this kind of deck for things without added utility. The target will eat removal while this is on the stack and there will be nothing you can do about it because there's so much running rampant: Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay... plus it gets hit by Spell Pierce and Spell Snare as well. Running our 5th uncommon as a "maybe" 5/5 indestructible beater seems like a bit of a stretch. If Memnite doesn't please you I would look at a card like Shrapnel Blast, which can just finish a game if left uncountered.
Yes. Springleaf Drum is a continual source of mana in a deck that is basically rainbow between it's MB and SB and can be turn on as soon as turn 1 to accelerate into more drops, while Star is only a one-shot effect that takes 2 mana to work out. While it may cantrip, Drum stays around while performing it's funcgion which counts for both Plating and Atog.
If you're playing in a Peasant environment it can work as long as you can fit in the Research and Stars. However, I feel it would be too clunky if you're playing in a real Legacy meta against full power Legacy decks (even if they're just in the lower tiers), and both cards on their own do not offer enough impact in a Legacy meta (Research provides no card advantage; it takes Research itself and another permanent to put two cards into your hand, so does Star).
Yes. I cannot stress enough how important is Arcbound Ravager for the actual deck as the card that makes it tick even without Disciple or Fling. It's main function is not to eat everything and swing but to blank removal and make combat math miserable for your opponent, which has to play around it and consider that it can grow at any given moment, which makes him a must-deal-with threat alongside Plating and Pest. Plus, it puts a big psychological strain on opponents that don't know the deck by expecting a big Fling at every combat.
Actually no, but now that you say it it could provide a nice reach and combat trick for when we desperately need to survive a combat phase or take down a bigger creature. Atog and Plating will love this as it can screw even more with combat math.
Black is needed so you can at least threaten to attach Plating at instant speed alongside for Sideboard options like you said. Plus there will be times where you will feel like hardcasting Skirge (against aggro or burn on low life). You might want to up the Black count in the manabase. As Upkeep said, I dislike Metalcraft beaters because they're just vanilla creatures that don't provide any value and can't even compete with the big boys on Legacy. While a Carapace Forger or Ardent Recruit work well in Pauper, in Legacy they will just get stonewalled and run over by threats like KoTR, Tarmo or Tasigur or dealt with super efficient removal.
Hope this clears your doubts.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
My meta is hard to describe, but I'll give it a go: We are mostly a draft group of 6-12 players with 8 or so regulars, playing casual games of 1v1 and multiplayer legacy and EDH when we're not drafting. Everybody respects the legacy banlist, but you'd be hard pressed to call the meta "Legacy". The composition is roughly:
20% Competitive, established legacy decks: LED-less Dredge (I think 3 ppl have one), Zoo (no goyf), Reanimator with S&T, Burn. Very little control and no all out storm combo.
15% Competitive rogue or budget decks: Sac land tendrils with Burning Wish, non-budget GBW Rock with lots of LD/mana denial and removal (made top 8 at a local event), tuned creature based combos (I think I saw a mono blue Pili Pala build).
15% Semi-competitive, poorly tuned decks: This would be 12-post builds with Emrakul and friends that for some reason didn't bother to add Forest and Crop Rotation but still work sort of OK as mono-brown, but the player just couldn't be bothered to sit down and think about his build because "it's for casual". Or orzhov discard decks with suboptimal card choices.
15% Uncompetitive, thematic decks that are often surprisingly non-budget: For example UW flyers without Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, 2-drops or good cards in general, but lots of semi-expensive threats from Modern and maybe a fetchland or two.
15% Bizarre decks: This could mean decks with a true dual land that also run 3 CMC burn spells because all the Lightning Bolts were in other decks. Or really strange combos based on stuff like Door to Nothingness. Or uninteractive decks that "can win on turn 6 most of the time" etc.
20% Pauper/peasant decks: Some established archetypes, some homebrews that well... you know.
Overall, there is a clear tendancy to go for spectacular decks that do the unexpected, and also aggro or combo decks that don't really consider much what the opponent is doing. There is hardly any control and most don't really consider Counterspell etc when building decks. I adopt the pauper/peasant mantle mostly as a way to stimulate creativity in deck building (and keep it budget friendly), we don't really have a pauper/peasant environment, it's more free for all.
For me, it's more about the theoretical fact that a deck auto-loses to a deck with a certain card type in it that bugs me, more than the practical frequency of Eldrazi decks in my casual environment (at any rate less than 5% of the meta). I just find it not very elegant to build decks with that kind of a flaw. Also, I'm kind of iffy about using mill as a win con at all in yet another deck since I'm already using it in TurboFog and I'd rather vary myself for obvious reasons.
Yes, I did find that one in my searches for inspiration. The big difference is he can use Frantic Search, but not Brain Freeze. So he has to go infinite with Archaeomancer and Ghostly Flicker, but has the luxury of an untapper and filterer all in one card. Transformational sideboards aside, the bottom line is this: Which is the stronger storm combo deck in Peasant clothing: Sac Land Tendrils or Spring Tide? Even at non-Peasant budget, Spring Tide is clearly the less popular choice and that's with access to Cunning Wish and Blue Sun's Zenith as a convenient alt wincon. I'm certain a workable Peasant Spring Tide could be fashioned, but would it be better than SLT without Burning Wish? Power level aside, the upside for my group with Spring Tide is we don't have it in our group yet (there's already a non-Peasant SLT there). The downside is the mill wincon that duplicates TurboFog and requires a need for something else in the board. I know I want a combo deck, but I have a hard time choosing.
I probably won't make another control deck until I have something tangible in combo and aggro (most likely affinity). But I will say that TurboFog has been immensly successful and fun (for me mostly) in my meta. Mostly, it just kills 90% of scrubby aggro and scrubby combo which is a huge part of the meta. It also has decent game against Zoo and Dredge on the more competitive side of things, and a fair chance against storm combo. I think it will be hard to make a Peasant control deck that can rival its power in my specific circumstances. I don't think even Delver or MBC would be better.
@Zephyr: You've given me lots to think about. I'm a control player at heart, but I know I want at least one aggro deck to whip out when I really feel like beating face and I think Affinity will do that for me. I'll ponder your arguments for a while and get back with a list.
EDIT: I've found a proven competitive Spring Tide list that seems suitable for Peasantification, Sebastian Offner's list from day 2 and Grand Prix Lille in 2005:
10 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Meditate
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Misdirection
3 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Snap
3 Turnabout
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Defense Grid
1 Echoing Truth
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Stifle
1 Stroke of Genius
It's mostly the 4 Snap and 4 Cloud of Faeries that make me want to go for a Delver sideboard. Going Peasant with the main deck yields:
Fetches -> Islands obviously
Cunning Wish, Force of Will, Misdirection: 4x Counterspell and quite possibly a few Spellstutter Sprite too if going with the transformational sideboard.
Meditate - > Accumulated Knowledge. Has the advantage of being a decent draw spell even in a Delver shell, rather than unplayable in such a shell.
Serum Vision/Sleight of Hand - > Ponder/Preordain are obviously better. I'm gonna go with 4 and probably put the remaining slots to Spellstutter Sprites.
This should yield a fairly solid combo deck with plenty of disruption against opposing decks and a strong transformational sideboard that will unfortunately take up quite a bit of space. Turnabout, Brain Freeze, Ideas Unbound and High Tide (13 cards total) are all musts to board out. Maybe there's room for trimming somewhat, but there will be little left of actual sideboard space to handle stuff like Dredge (probably faster than either mode of the deck, and quite immune to counters).
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I would focus on the pre-Scars of Mirrodin era, where you didn't have Inkmoth Nexus, Steel Overseer, Mox Opal or Etched Champion yet the deck was so powerful that it got bans all across the table. The only core rares were Arcbound Ravager, for which you have a passable substitute that has been already discussed, Blinkmoth Nexus which can be substituted by Mishra's Factory (keep in mind it doesn't fly and that you have to distribute the slots between Pest and this) and Glimmervoid, which has no real substitute but since it's just a Rainbow land it doesn't matter too much.
If you like, you can delve into the Black splash for some Disciple of the Vault which complicate the board state even more and add some more reach, but you'll have to rework the creature base and the artifact count as well as the Black sources. Furthermore, I wouldn't underestimate Spell Pierce in a format like Legacy: where a 40%-50%+ of a deck are non-creature spells it can basically mean an additional turn of damage by timewalking an opponent or protecting one of your bombs in the key turn for the win for such a low investment.
About a Control deck I'm thinking about UBx Mystical Teachings loaded up with removal, counters and silver bullets with either ThopterSword and something else as a finisher, or CounterTop alongside cards like Muddle the Mixture which you can chain from Teachings to tutor another piece of the combo. You will need something to stall though, since that will be incredibly slow, but the toolbox that Teachings + Transmute tutors can offer will be quite high. Keep in mind that while not stellar outside of traditional Pauper, you also have access to Gurmag Angler. Maybe we could take this into 8-Post territory as a mana engine to gain life and for powering up the Teachings? You could even splash Green to fetch for a singleton Havenwood Wurm and some Green silver bullets.
Althought not combo per-se don't forget you can run a good old UG Madness shell with 2 Wonder and 3 Force of Will as your uncommons and place pretty well.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
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As for control, I'm thinking about exploring UBx post with 2-3 Teachings, 1-2 Muddle and 3-4 slots for ThopterSword combo with 1-2 for other uncommon bombs. But it shall have to wait!
I have spent most of my free time today scavaging a 26-or-so page thread on Spring Tide at the Source (my what an obnoxious site that is compared to our cozy paper pauper forum) and I'm learning lots. I think Peasant spring tide has wicked potential, and right now Prosperity might even be a better way to go than Brain Freeze + alt win cons against mill blockers. I shall keep reading (and hopefully not cry for humanity as I go to sleep).
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I have spent the last two days focusing on a Peasant Spring Tide list and it is shaping up very nicely. I've come as a far as I can take it now, but maybe your input can help tweak it further:
16 Island
CREATURES (4)
4 Cloud of Faeries
ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Conjurer's Bauble
SORCERIES (19)
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
2 Compulsive Research
4 High Tide
4 Snap
4 Brainstorm
3 Turnabout (u)
1 Brain Freeze (u)
1 Careful Consideration (u)
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Echoing Truth
4 Spell Pierce
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Gigadrowse
2 Piracy Charm
1 Vision Charm
1 Grapeshot
1 Capsize
1 Curfew
Most card choices don't need explaining. Suffice to say that the gist of reading 30+ pages of commentary on Spring Tide is that you want the above 11 untap effects and 7 CA spells (2 Compulsive Research and 1 Careful Consideration are the best replacements for 3 Meditate). The beauty of the main deck is that ALL the cards are relevant for the combo which allows the deck to go off on turn 3-4 with extreme consistency, while still acheiving strong game 1 protection:
Brainstorm + Conjurer's Bauble: Draw cards but also defend against discard on Brain Freeze/High Tide.
Turnabout: Combo piece that also defends against counters by tapping down EOT and then proceeding to go off, like a much improved Toils of Night and Day.
Gitaxian Probe: Free draw that also answers the important question when trying to go off on t3 against a non-control opponent with mana open: Does he have removal on CoF in response to Snap? I think 3 is the right number because you never know what your life total is when going off, but 4 might be better still.
Muddle the Mixture: Tutorable protection if needed game 1, but also tutors uncounterably for the kill mid combo, or for more draw/untap. A good substitute for Cunning Wish.
Echoing Truth: Game 1 protection against all sorts of nasty things, but also a combo piece - bouncing 2 CoF is nearly as mana effecient as snapping one, and bouncing 3 is actually stronger!
As for the sideboard:
Spell Pierce: Against Chalice, Counterbalance, trinisphere, faster combo, hymn to tourach - most problems the deck can suffer really. Low cost is crucial and 2 tax is just enough to get there in the early turns when it matters.
Relic: Against dredge and reanimator
Gigadrowse: An improved but strictly offensive Turnabout games 2-3 against permission control.
Piracy Charm: The little card that could: Kill Mother of Runes before she untaps to protect Thalia and other hatebears, kill said hatebears on its own, kill your own CoF to take out Bridge from Below, kill Goblin Lackey, kill Vault Skirge in response to equip etc - pretty much all the aggro problems that can race or lock out.
Vision Charm: What a useful little card! It's a tutorable mana source for my alt win con, but it also takes out problematic artifacts, denies mana, messes with library manipulation etc.
Grapeshot: Boarded with Vision Charm against decks with mill immunity. Conveniently found by Muddle the Mixture!
Capsize: Bounce of choice against Chalice/CB but can also go infinite with enough high tides and a CoF and bounce the opponent to bits if needed.
Curfew: Silver bullet against reanimator, show and tell, hexproof auras etc - things that can arguably race the deck.
Let me know what you think! I shall meanwhile turn my full attention to Affinity
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Thanks for taking the time of sharing your metagame. Now I'm not at all surprised that Turbo Fog is doing so well for you!
About your High Tide list:
I think it looks fantastic, actually! I don't have much to say. I think your alternate win condition is a bit ambitious. Is this really necessary?
Considering that you're not going to be winning at instant speed, I would cut Careful Consideration for another Compulsive Research and add the fourth Turnabout. That card is awesome, and there's plenty of good draw at common so you don't need to take up the precious uncommon slots for them.
Why two Conjurer's Bauble? I get you can play them over and over again to get some extra storm if ever you draw your entire deck, but I don't think this is a likely scenario. Wouldn't a singleton just be better? Maybe a maindeck Spell Pierce could be really good here.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Conjurer's Bauble was included to prevent catastrophy such as turn 1 Duress taking Brain Freeze (or to a lesser extent, Surgical Extraction on High Tide). It's actually pretty good as a pre paid cantrip that doesn't use up mana while going off. Going down to 1 makes room for the 4th Turnabout, but puts greater strain on finding the saving Bauble when needed to recover a key card though. Another option would be Archaeomancer... 3 mana more is A LOT, but if you consider that you were probably going to need to use Merchant Scroll to fish out whatever you put back anyway, then it's just 1 mana more and it's really Merchant Scroll #5. He also goes infinite with just one High Tide and one Snap and one other untap effect with 3 Islands in play.
So changes would be:
-1 Careful Consideration
+1 Turnabout
+1 Compulsive Research
-1 or -2 Conjurer's Bauble
+1 or +0 Archaeomancer
Thoughts?
@Zephyr: I've started ironing out an Affinity build. I think I'm gonna go with 1 Thopter Foundry as my final uncommon (it was mentioned in the legacy affinity primer as a solid 1-2 of - seems perfect without access to Ravager). I'm also going down to 3 Atog then with the 4th in the SB, as I'd rather have Atog + Foundry than double Atog. I'll probably fit fully 3 Spell Pierce in the main too, with the last in the board.
I contemplated using Somber Hoverguard instead of Myr Enforcer because 4/4 is not very big on the ground and toughness 4 is less of a magical limit in legacy, but then I discovered Faerie Mechanist. FOUR unsubsidized mana is perhaps too much for the deck, but doesn't seem unrealistic as a rather kick ass 3-drop off a Drum and 3 lands (which, counting 22 sources and 4 draw-2s, should be fairly doable). With 2-3 mechanists and 4 Thoughtcast, I should be bringing Cranial Plating in contact with my opponent's face every game.
If the Mechanist is deemed too mana intensive, I'm considering a balls-to-the-walls explosive build with 2-3 Lotus Petal instead and no basic lands. Thoughts?
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All your proposed changes seem excellent to me. Can we see an updated list?
How about this for a secondary win condition?
2 Ghostly Flicker
2 Deep Analysis
Once you have infinite mana and two Archaeomancers, you can just copy Deep Analysis targeting the opponent until they draw their deck and can't play anymore. Because they eventually draw their Eldrazi, it gets stuck in hand and they die. Not to mention all of those pieces are still good for your combo. Just an idea!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
However, I wouldn't even test Faerie Mechanist: 4 mana is A LOT to pay for a deck like this for a glorified flying Ponder. Consider it this way: if Ponder costs just U, are you comfortable paying 3 for a flying 2/2 in Legacy? Don't worry about conecting Platings since Pests, Skirges, Ornithopters and the tokens from Foundry seem more than enough to go for that. With 4 copies of Plating and 4 Thoughtcast you'll pretty much draw it every game.
About Somber Hoverguard vs Myr Enforcer: Hoverguard has Delver-esque stats but he's no Delver, and Enforcer has Tarmogoyf-esque stats but he's no Tarmo. It all boils down to personal preference. However, I would choose Enforcer simply because he's boltproof, adds to the Artifact count, can be sacrificed, and can be potentially free, where Hoverguard won't cost less than U at any given time.
I'm all for the Petals as a poor man's Mox Opal in the hyper aggressive build. However, I would leave at least 1 basic land as a concession to Path to Exile.
After these adjustments, you might want to add Disciple of the Vault since he's too good to pass right now. You even have self-sacrificing "lands" in Petals, which basically reads "Sacrifice Lotus Petal: Add a mana of any color to your mana pool and Lotus Petal deals X damage to target opponent, where X is the number of Disciple of the Vault in play". He's even a pseudo Blood Artist with Foundry on the battlefield.
On a different note, about the UBx Teachings, what about a shell like this?
4 Mystical Teachings
Mana Engine (8)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Voidmage Husher
Husher as a 5th uncommon can go a long mile protecting you from Wastelands which are a bane to 8 Posts decks, alongside stopping cold all triggered abilities, including Planeswalkers, and acting as a repeatable Stifle against decks with greedy manabases and lots of fetchlands. With the number of Instants you will be playing, you can protect her quite easily, and a 4CMC cost isn't that steep on a Cloudpost engine. I would load up on some number of ways for recurring lost artifacts for Foundry and for recovering lands though. You could also have an interesting, fetcheable B plan in Havenwood Wurm.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
The inclusion of Archaeomancer has really been an eye-opener for me. I know it was part of NotMyName's original build, but since I saw no mention of it in any legacy spring tide threads, I dismissed it as a poor man's substitute. That was probabably wrong, and I'm actually amazed that legacy lists are not running this little gem. He is precisely what the deck was missing: an engine. In a Snap-based deck, he is essentially a blue Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains.
Ghostly Flicker is nothing to scoff at either. Many don't realize it hits LANDS too, so it is as efficient as a Toils of Night and Day for going off and producing mana ON ITS OWN. With Archaeomancer and Cloud of Faeries on the table, it achieves infinite mana and storm as easy as can be. This is such a huge benefit, because it opens up a whole new angle of play. Before, the deck was simply hoping not to fizzle when going off - you can never be sure that you'll get the right mix of draw and mana up to 15+ storm with a scroll to spare. Now you can still do that, or simply draw into Archaeomancer and everything will be OK. Once you do, you can be pretty sure to have a Faerie in play and a Merchant Scroll in the yard while under the effect of at least one High Tide. So you play the mancer, recur the scroll, get Ghostly Flicker, go infinite, recur the scroll again and infinite Brain Freeze. All you need is a singleton Flicker.
Running two mancers seems optimal (in fact, they and the singleton Muddle the Mixture take the place of Cunning Wish in the typical legacy build). So this makes the alternate win con actually part of the main deck. The best option IMO is to run Capsize as the mainboard bounce of choice. This lets you draw your deck after going infinite with one mancer, thus finding the second mancer and assembling the Deep Analysis + Flicker engine. Before you start targeting the opponent, you can then Capsize his board to ensure he doesn't draw into instant speed hate. You can even be immune to Force of Will on Ghostly Flicker by Capsizing a mancer in response to recover the flicker - it's UNSTOPPABLE!
Here's the updated list:
16 Island
COMBO (5)
4 High Tide
1 Brain Freeze (u)
UNTAPPERS (12)
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Snap
4 Turnabout (u)
TUTORS/PROTECTION/ENGINE (9)
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Archaeomancer
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Capsize
4 Ideas Unbound
2 Deep Analysis
CANTRIPS (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Spell Pierce
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Gigadrowse
3 Piracy Charm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Curfew
I think only a few afterthoughts remain. I feel like I'm not really making the most of my sideboard. Wipe Away and Rebuild are two powerful answers that might merit cutting 1-2 Turnabout now that I have more ways of going off. This would entail re-adding Preordain to the main. 4 Probes might be too much consider Deep Analysis comes with life loss too, so maybe a probe will go for a Preordain then too.
On Affinity: Disciples were a really tight fit, see the list below. I loved the basic land PtE tech and decided to go with Mountain since I had more red requirements (not counting Vault Skirge and Plating) than black/blue. I had to put Fling and Spell Pierce in the board to make room. I decided to go with Stars instead of Petals, as I'd rather pay one mana more and get a card when I sac it (either for fixing or to feed Atog/Foundry). I'm not sure what more can be tweaked, but I'm very open to your suggestions. IMO, the list looks really wicked now.
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Springleaf Drum
2 Chromatic Star
1 Mountain
CREATURES (24)
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest (u)
4 Vault Skirge
4 Frogmite
3 Atog
3 Disciple of the Vault
2 Myr Enforcer
4 Cranial Plating
1 Thopter Foundry (u)
OTHER SPELLS (8)
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Thoughtcast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Duress
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Fling
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyroblast
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I'd rather use the Lotus Petal since a card in hand isn't worth the extra two mana (you counted just 1 extra mana for the cantrip but it's actually 2 since Lotus Petal costs 0 and Chromatic Star costs 1 plus 1 to sacrifice, thus merely filtering your mana and not accelerating) from a deck like this that seeks out to get the most bang for your buck and kill quickly. Even if it offers card disadvantage, the possibility of a T1 land, thopter, drum, petal, two one-drops / one two-drop / Frogmite + Thoughtcast to refill your hand or a Plating is what makes the deck so strong even in bigger formats. The ton of super explosive openers that can be had in nearly any combination that doesn't involve Myr Enforcer (unless you had a godhand powered by some Thoughtcast to get to 7 artifacts) is what makes the deck so fast and powerful. I would also trim down at least two mana sources for Spell Pierce since it's just such a good card to have maindeck to protect your wincons, force the last points of damage through removal, fight FoW, or simply buying an extra turn for U.
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Also, while covering key plays with Spell Pierce sounds really nice, I don't think the mana base supports it even as is. At least not if we're talking about covering an Atog, Foundry or Galvanic Blast. Having RU+ on the same turn is asking a lot I think. Backing up Thoughtcast is probably not possible at all, but perhaps it's not so much a priority. It might be more feasible if I'm replacing colored stuff like Disciple, but not colorless stuff and least of all mana sources. This is not legacy affinity with Mox Opal and Glimmervoid. Nor is it pauper affinity with 4 Chromatic Star and 4 Chromatic Sphere to back up artifact lands and drums. I'm already running 15 hard color requirements and have the shakiest mana base of any affinity deck I've seen so far.
I think it comes down to main deck Disciple or main deck Spell Pierce. Which would you choose?
EDIT: Forgot to mention, that with the recent developments on my TurboFog list, I'm postponing development and interest in any other peasant control deck indefinetely. I want to actually learn to pilot these two decks + the updated TurboFog list before I expand my casual arsenal further - if that even proves necessary. I'm glad the Foundry found its way into the Affinity list however - seems like such a strong card!
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I'm glad you like the Archaeomancer tech. NotMyName knew what he was doing, for sure.
It's extremely difficult to build a functional sideboard for pure combo decks like these (and an art form to know what to board out/in against many matchups). I also think 4x Probe is too much. I would actually cut two and put the Preordains back in (or maybe even another draw spell). I like the Turnabouts because they protect and enable your combo all at once (I forgot to mention this, but High Tide affects all islands, not just yours, so it's pretty important to tap down an opponent or be able to fight through their counters, or else they have tons of mana available). If not, you can bring out the big guns. Use two of your uncommon slots and run Force of Will.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
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GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
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It never occurred to me that Eggs was a possibility in Peasant. I thought Helm of Awakening was a rare. Very interesting!
I play Eggs in Legacy to great effect. It's a fantastic combo deck to pull on unsuspecting opponents.
Here is my version:
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Manamorphose
4 Skycloud Egg
4 Chromatic Star
4 Sungrass Egg
4 Darkwater Egg
3 Mossfire Egg
4 Shadowblood Egg
4 Helm of Awakening
3 Etherium Sculptor
4 Riddlesmith
1 Grapeshot
1 Abeyance
1 Gitaxian Probe
2 City of Brass
4 City of Traitors
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
2 Abeyance
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Krosan Grip
2 Snap
1 Golem's Heart
1 Glaze Fiend
1 Lightning Greaves
When I was very well practiced with the deck, I could get a turn 2-3 kill over %50 of the time. Riddlesmith is hands down the best card in the deck. I wonder if it would be possible to play this in Peasant without the actual Odyssey eggs?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
As for the spring tide, it feels much more solid to just wait to turn 4 to tap control down than hoping to have one of two FoWs at hand - they also do nothing for the combo. That said, Rebuild could be a huge play in the affinity match-up, indeed even necessary since it's difficult to deny them Spell Pierce mana with Turnabout (and waiting to turn 4 is hardly an option anyway). It's good against scepter in the TurboFog matchup too! I think it looks indispensible for my own kitchen table mini-meta. Wipe Away is probably not as important though - I'd rather have the third Turnabout.
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I just find using an uncommon slot just for a singleton sideboard card against only a single deck is a bit of a waste. The affinity matchup shouldn't be that big of a deal. Counter their equipment. tap down their biggest attacker(s). I think this deck has what it takes to really slow them down and just win. I'd play 3 Steel Sabotage maybe instead. Returning an artifact to their hand can be just as damaging as countering it.
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BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
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GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I noticed the Spring Tide deck was missing its second land drop more often than I assumed it would so I ran some numbers (hypergeometric distributions) to see what gives. To make a long story short, I can now say with some confidence that this deck cannot go below a whopping 28 cards that are either Island or 1 CMC dig. And I'm pretty sure the ideal is 17 Island, 4 Portent, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Preordain. A few choice numbers that were eye openers for me:
*17 lands = 8.3% risk of 0 lands in opener. Go down to 16 and that's 9.9%. Go up to 18 and it drops to 7.0%. However, 17 land is the optimum number for getting exactly 2 land in your opener.
*28 lands + cantrips = 7.4% risk of 1 or less in hand which is a mulligan. You must accept hands with 1 Island and only 1 dig, or else you'll mull 27% of the time even with 28 sources, for this reason alone! Go down to 27 sources and the risk of having one or less climbs above that of risk of 0 lands, which is bad.
*With 28 sources, a hand of 1 land + 1 cantrip has a 94% chance of digging up another land or cantrip by turn 2 (assuming you see 4 cards beyond your opener, which is "worse case" i.e. on the play and no Ponder). If it's another cantrip and you still haven't found your second land, cantripping again on t2 will get your land drop about 80% of the time. This is acceptable, but there will still be games where you just won't make your second land drop. Free draw from Gitaxian Probe can help mitigate this a bit, but the fact remains.
*Assuming 1 cantrip = 1 land (which is really not how it works, but OK), you still won't make land drop #4 more than 80% of the time, which is really key to the Turnabout denial (sounds like a Phoenix Wright episode..) plan. So half your friggin deck is lands and cantrips and you STILL won't drop land 4 on turn 4 more than 80% of the time, counting nicely. And trying to finance an offensive Turnabout with High Tide can backfire spectacularly when you think about it.
I think this makes it clear that you can't really go below 28 lands + cantrips unless you want to lose to your own deck. I'm even contemplating adding a singleton Impulse to recruit Merchant Scroll in the task of finding enough land to cast Turnabout offensively (I'd feel more comfortable getting Impulse than Brainstorm for this purpose with 17 land in the deck - Traumatic Visions is an even surer thing, but also a rube of a card).
I've also goldfished the Affinity list some more, and while it's certainly powerful, three primary colors gives me headaches. Cutting the Disciples for Spell Pierce and adding an Island over a Vault of Whispers made it feel a lot more solid though - I only really have to worry about red and blue then with black mana being a nice bonus (exception: Thopter Foundry, but it's a singleton that's not really a 2-drop anyway). I doubt I'll add many black cards to the sideboard - it'll just make me lose to my own mana base and I have plenty to choose from in blue and red already. If fact, SB suggestions in these colors are very welcome!
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In any case, here are a few links I think you could find interesting:
Land calculations in Burn decks, part 1
Land calculations in Burn decks, part 2
Primer for Solidarity by ExpiredRascals
The first two links show calculations I've done in the previous Burn primer. I determined that the optimal number of lands (requiring two in the opening hand and a subsequent land within four turns) was 21. An argument could be made for any ranging base from 18-22 lands without much statistical difference.
The third link I think is worth looking at again (I'm sure you've already seen it), just for the winning lists posted by ExpiredRascals that date from December 2014. I consider these lists to be reliable precedents to what is a "playable" number of lands in a High Tide combo deck. Even in his section on lands, he explains a total of 17-20 lands is perfectly reasonable. If you look at the winning lists, you'll also see they have a very similar amount of draw/filter cards to you (of varying strength of course. Some spells are weaker because they want to go off at instant speed, others are stronger because they are rare). Knowing that these winning lists have such a low land count should indicate what is feasible in your own version.
Blue decks running tons of cantrips like you are can get away with a lower land count and still hit their land drops. Cantrips and library manipulation warp the statistics immensely.
I think it's important to come to terms with the fact that when using a combo deck, you're more likely to fizzle than with any other strategy. That does not mean combo is bad. You just need to be well practiced and be very aware of your decks' limits.
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The problem in High Tide combo, as ExpiredRascals notes, is that you're tempted to run fewer lands because they are mostly worthless when going off. I wish his primer discussed keepable hands more though, because I'm wondering how he feels about keeping 1 land hands in the 17-land build he favors. If he does, and he runs 8 cantrips and Opt only digs 2 cards deep, I'm not liking his odds of making that second drop on a kept 1-lander. And really, since Solidarity is sort of a control deck with a combo finish (not at all like Spring Tide), I really don't think 1-landers should be kept. No other control deck would. OTOH, if he doesn't keep 1-landers, why would he prefer 17 lands over 19? He must then mull 35% of the time due to land shortage alone, rather than 28% of the time with 19 lands. Is the increase mull ratio really worth a couple of less land when going off?
(Also, I think Solidarity should run a more ridiculous amount of fetches. Let's say they combo on turn 4 and run 20 lands in the deck (because these are nice numbers). If half the lands are fetches (and not even half are), there'll be 14 lands left in the deck. If 75% are fetches though, there'll only be 13 lands left. Basically, there's no need to run more Islands than your latest possible fundamental turn. If Solidarity doesn't really care about it's 8th Island and beyond, there's no reason to run more than 7 Island.)
Anyway, Spring Tide is thankfully a different deck that doesn't need to compromise being both Combo and Control at the same time. The Faeries + Snap engine typically goes off on turn 3 (if it doesn't need to use Turnabout preemptively). This makes it singularly interested in finding that second land - the third land drop can be found on t3 while going off with Ideas Unbound for instance. This in turn allows it to cut land and stock up on those powerful sorcery cantrips that dig deeper and find the land. Solidarity however needs to rely more on Impulse worries about drops 3 and 4 instead, which means it probably can't take a chance on 1-landers and should probably run closer to 20 lands than 16.
Oh, and this is actually me being lazy If it's something I can't be bothered with, it's goldfishing 20+ hands to determine how many lands I should run (an exercise in confirmational bias and futility, btw), or wondering about if I should keep a certain hand when I'm actually playing the deck against a friend. I'll have plenty of other things to think about then, so I want to understand the exact whys and hows of the deck beforehand. That way, I know that if I fizzle I'm just being fooled by randomness and not my own sub-optimal plays and builds. This way, I have more fun!
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
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