The deck works by countering a few spells early on and getting Horseshoe Crab into play, then dominating by either pinging everything to death by turning the crab into a machine gun with Psionic Gift or simply bouncing the opponents' board at the end of their turn to hopefully force them to discard a few things and then counter the rest. High Tide can ramp you into Benthic Giant or help you kill off or bounce more creatures, or simply kill the opponent with a Psionic Crab.
Cards I'm looking to include but ran out of room for: 2x Ophidian Eye and possibly Spire Golem.
So this is my list to test out for now. Any ideas? Should I be going UR? I'm afraid of not being able to abuse the crabs enough by running out of Blue mana faster, but it might add another twist to it. Any cards I could incude? What can I take out?
Is 22 instant/sorcery enough to merit Delver?Probably not, as he doesn't do much for the deck and there is no room.
I know you said the main reason for all the counter was to protect the crab. Why not run apostle's blessing? Or if you are looking to Specifically protect the crab, then UW offers hindering light , which is one of my favorites. + cycles.
suture priests could punish you opponent after a "board wipe" when they have to gradually play everything again and get more pings for it.
I like Benthic Giant in this list. I've had my eye on him since he was spoiled and I think he works well as a finisher. That being said, I think running a full playset is overkill. If you drop 2 Giants for 2 Ophidian Eyes then you will be able to fill up your hand with answers after you get the crab going and you'll dig into a Giant as well.
I also think you're overdoing it with the Banishing Knack effects. It's a good strategy, but I think it's just as effective at 6 as it is at 7. Drop one for another Ophidian Eye for 3 total. You'll have a good draw engine and you'll never run out of steam.
I don't think it's necessary to splash Red or White as your current list has everything you need. Red will just give you access to more Psionic Gift-like cards, but will cut down on your Islands so I don't see the point.
I really like Confound as a protective counter.
The card draw is always great
I would not focus too much on bouncing, as only about half of the pauper decks I saw were running creatures actively - that might depend on your meta, though.
Is 22 instant/sorcery enough to merit Delver?Probably not, as he doesn't do much for the deck and there is no room.
I know you said the main reason for all the counter was to protect the crab. Why not run apostle's blessing? Or if you are looking to Specifically protect the crab, then UW offers hindering light , which is one of my favorites. + cycles.
suture priests could punish you opponent after a "board wipe" when they have to gradually play everything again and get more pings for it.
Yeah, I thought about Delver a bit, but I think a big, tougher-to-remove fatty is more à propos. I don't think casting him will be much of an issue, what with the High Tides and slower deck.
You're right, that is mostly why they're there. HOWEVER, they do serve the other very important purpose of slowing the other deck down much like a traditional MUC list. I want all of my counters to be relevant both defensively and offensively.
I'm very hesitant of bringing in a second colour, although White has a lot to offer, maybe even more than Red. Thanks for the good suggestion!
I really like Confound as a protective counter.
The card draw is always great
I would not focus too much on bouncing, as only about half of the pauper decks I saw were running creatures actively - that might depend on your meta, though.
That's a really nice counter... But it can only be used defensively! Maybe if I had room in for it somewhere, or perhaps make a 2:2 split of it and Dispel. What do folks (ahem, darkninja107) think of that?
As for meta, I think it can do fine. Don't forget that Banishing Knack returns nonland permanents, so it's good against any deck that doesn't just use instants/sorceries! And I would say that 95% of the Pauper metagame uses creatures somewhere to win, so I should be fine. I'm pretty much the only player in my group that thinks outside the box for win conditions, even if we have some really good builders.
I like Benthic Giant in this list. I've had my eye on him since he was spoiled and I think he works well as a finisher. That being said, I think running a full playset is overkill. If you drop 2 Giants for 2 Ophidian Eyes then you will be able to fill up your hand with answers after you get the crab going and you'll dig into a Giant as well.
I also think you're overdoing it with the Banishing Knack effects. It's a good strategy, but I think it's just as effective at 6 as it is at 7. Drop one for another Ophidian Eye for 3 total. You'll have a good draw engine and you'll never run out of steam.
I don't think it's necessary to splash Red or White as your current list has everything you need. Red will just give you access to more Psionic Gift-like cards, but will cut down on your Islands so I don't see the point.
Yeah, I think he's perfect for this list! I kinda think 2 is a bit few, but yeah, 4 might be too much. Well spotted!
I think dropping another Banishing Knack is also a valid point. That makes room for the 2 Ophidian Eyes I wanted! yay! I also think 3 might be overkill for it, as it only really shines when I have Psionic Gift out, otherwise, it would be a bit hard to use effectively. Thanks for the great input!
The changes have been reflected in the OP, still looking for input!
That's a really nice counter... But it can only be used defensively! Maybe if I had room in for it somewhere, or perhaps make a 2:2 split of it and Dispel. What do folks (ahem, darkninja107) think of that?
Well, since I was called out on this, I guess I must chime in. Lol.
I've always like the idea of Confound. The draw makes it better than other cards that do the same and it's a great tempo card, but I agree with Obermeir on the negative part of it. I'd rather have counters that can handle any spell rather than just a few. Now using it as a Sideboard or a meta choice is another thing completely. If you know you'll need Confound then definitely use it, but otherwise you're better off with solid counters.
I like Muddle the Mixture! The tutor part is really good for the deck.
I don't like Pili-Pala though. He is cheaper to cast, but not to untap. The crab is also better since it can dodge more burn than Pili-Pala.
Technicaaaaaaally, couldn't you just use the mana he makes to pay half of his next untap cost? Making it roughly the same?
Obe, I know you said you didn't want to splash a color (and my hindering light argument is out the window since someone else posted a functional monoblue equivalent) BUT, have you SEEN quicksilver dagger ?!?!
Technicaaaaaaally, couldn't you just use the mana he makes to pay half of his next untap cost? Making it roughly the same?
Roughly the same, but it still costs 2 mana on the first activation which gives you one less activation than the Crab gives you with the same amount of land. That can be the difference between a win or a loss.
I do like Quicksilver Dagger though. It's a Psionic Gift and Ophidian Eye in one!
Roughly the same, but it still costs 2 mana on the first activation which gives you one less activation than the Crab gives you with the same amount of land. That can be the difference between a win or a loss.
I do like Quicksilver Dagger though. It's a Psionic Gift and Ophidian Eye in one!
I wasn't talking about replacing horseshoe with pili-pala, but running them together. That's because your auras are worthless without horseshoe and you don't want to waste a high tide just to cast a early soliton because you didn't draw any horseshoe.
I'm considering including Pili-Pala instead of Soliton. In testing I'm realizing that I can be killed off in the early game before I have time to set up, so a 2-drop is better. Shame I have to give up the 3/4 body, though. And Pili-Pala is slightly harder to use, but will help if ever splashing becomes a thing. Pili-Pala is always 1 ativation behind the crab unfortunately, because there's an extra mana floating at the end that's not enough to activate the untap ability. Is it worth the downside to run a cheaper creature?
It also makes Muddle the Mixture usable, as now I can get Gift or the scarecrow to get a combo going. What Counter should I take out for Muddle?
I think I'll be including Pili-Pala instead of Soliton. In testing I'm realizing that I can be killed off in the early game before I have time to set up, so a 2-drop is better. Shame I have to give up the 3/4 body, though. And Pili-Pala is slightly harder to use, but will help if ever splashing becomes a thing.
It also makes Muddle the Mixture usable, as now I can get Gift or the scarecrow to get a combo going. What Counter should I take out for Muddle?
Thanks for the awesome input!
I think the obvious choice is to drop Dispel for Muddle the Mixture. Muddle costs more, but it counters Instants as well as Sorceries, plus you don't want 2 counters that are as narrow as those cards.
It sucks that it costs more though, but you're probably right.
What do you think of Pili-Pala inefficiency? Is it worth the lower cost over Soliton?
I think Pili-Pala is a better choice than Soliton since he is much cheaper to play. He'll speed up the deck and hopefully smooth out any problems you had with Soliton.
Very good, this is reassuring. In fact, there wasn't a single game I tested where I actually managed to play Soliton and use it successfully for anything! It's about a turn too slow. I'll make the switch. Thanks guys!
I've also been testing against White Weenie (my "deck to beat" standard), and am holding my own! It's not great, but I probably need more practice. Pili-Pala actually ended up being really important as a source of colourless damage against Guardian of the Guildpact, which I had a hard time dealing with. The deck is actually really sneaky; it starts out looking exactly like MUC and then busts out a combo and wipes the board. Pretty awesome!
I'm also really happy with Benthic Giant. He's everything he's cracked up to be!
I don't see how Ocular Halo is better than Ophidian Eye. Am I missing something?
Ophidian Eye is cheaper and it adds draw to each time you ping your opponent AND it has flash so you can keep open mana to counter spells if need be.
Ocular Halo requires you to tap to activate it, wasting a chance to ping just to draw a card which leads to using up precious resources like spending extra mana to untap. Ocular Halo only seems good if you're still digging for Psionic Gift, but running 4 Gifts and 4 Muddle the Mixtures kind of make it a moot point.
Ocular Halo is better because it doesn't REQUIRE you to have a 3 card combo to get any real use out of it. All it needs is a Pili-Pala or a crab, and you can start digging for counters or whatever you need. Two auras on a creature to get a combo going is dangerous business, too. If you have 2 crabs/palas, you can divide the auras between them to reduce risk of being 3-for-1ed. Sure, you don't draw for every damage you do, but you can divide your mana between drawing/damage however you want. And I must say that if you aren't dealing damage to creatures, you're probably already winning, so drawing cards is most likely not going to help much then.
It's just way more convenient, really.
Also, I'm noticing that I'm praying to get Psionic gift a lot more than more Banishing Knacks. While they do screw with the opponent's tempo way more, they don't actually deal with threats very well. I think I'm going to go with 4x Psionic Gift, 4x Hermetic Study and 2 Banishing Knacks. Should be more effective that way.
Haha, it's funny how the original card that inspired me to make this deck Pauper has slowly disappeared from the deck!
You could run only 4 ping auras and 2-4 bounces and use ponder and preordain instead. This makes things more consistent because those two cantrips actually help searching for whatever you want, be it a horseshoe, aura, bounce, counter or even land.
I took out the High tides, as they just weren't doing enough for the deck. Benthic Giant, while an awesome win condition, is just too slow. I prefer using the Golem as an earlier/cheaper form of defence, which can later start to do damage. I also added 3 Ponders and an extra land to compensate for less ramp. Now my combo should be slightly more consistent. I'm thinking of taking out Ocular Halo for more draw power and also taking out Banishing Knack completely in favor of Sigil of Sleep. Any thoughts/opinions on these?
U Instant Common
Until end of turn, target creature gains "{T}: Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand.").
4 Horseshoe Crab
4 Pili-Pala
3 Benthic Giant
Horseshoe stuff (12)
2 Banishing Knack
4 Hermetic Study
4 Psionic Gift
2 Ocular Halo
4 Counterspell
4 Prohibit
4 Muddle the Mixture
Ramp (3)
3 High Tide
22 Island
The deck works by countering a few spells early on and getting Horseshoe Crab into play, then dominating by either pinging everything to death by turning the crab into a machine gun with Psionic Gift or simply bouncing the opponents' board at the end of their turn to hopefully force them to discard a few things and then counter the rest. High Tide can ramp you into Benthic Giant or help you kill off or bounce more creatures, or simply kill the opponent with a Psionic Crab.
Cards I'm looking to include but ran out of room for: 2x Ophidian Eye and possibly Spire Golem.
So this is my list to test out for now. Any ideas? Should I be going UR? I'm afraid of not being able to abuse the crabs enough by running out of Blue mana faster, but it might add another twist to it. Any cards I could incude? What can I take out?
Edits:
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I know you said the main reason for all the counter was to protect the crab. Why not run apostle's blessing? Or if you are looking to Specifically protect the crab, then UW offers hindering light , which is one of my favorites. + cycles.
suture priests could punish you opponent after a "board wipe" when they have to gradually play everything again and get more pings for it.
I also think you're overdoing it with the Banishing Knack effects. It's a good strategy, but I think it's just as effective at 6 as it is at 7. Drop one for another Ophidian Eye for 3 total. You'll have a good draw engine and you'll never run out of steam.
I don't think it's necessary to splash Red or White as your current list has everything you need. Red will just give you access to more Psionic Gift-like cards, but will cut down on your Islands so I don't see the point.
The card draw is always great
I would not focus too much on bouncing, as only about half of the pauper decks I saw were running creatures actively - that might depend on your meta, though.
Cockatrice is still going strong over at http://www.woogerworks.com[/B]
Ghostly Battlefield
The Winner is Judge [2]
Chasay, Caller of Fire
Skaab Corpse Looter
[B]This Winner is also Judge [0]
Yeah, I thought about Delver a bit, but I think a big, tougher-to-remove fatty is more à propos. I don't think casting him will be much of an issue, what with the High Tides and slower deck.
You're right, that is mostly why they're there. HOWEVER, they do serve the other very important purpose of slowing the other deck down much like a traditional MUC list. I want all of my counters to be relevant both defensively and offensively.
I'm very hesitant of bringing in a second colour, although White has a lot to offer, maybe even more than Red. Thanks for the good suggestion!
That's a really nice counter... But it can only be used defensively! Maybe if I had room in for it somewhere, or perhaps make a 2:2 split of it and Dispel. What do folks (ahem, darkninja107) think of that?
As for meta, I think it can do fine. Don't forget that Banishing Knack returns nonland permanents, so it's good against any deck that doesn't just use instants/sorceries! And I would say that 95% of the Pauper metagame uses creatures somewhere to win, so I should be fine. I'm pretty much the only player in my group that thinks outside the box for win conditions, even if we have some really good builders.
Yeah, I think he's perfect for this list! I kinda think 2 is a bit few, but yeah, 4 might be too much. Well spotted!
I think dropping another Banishing Knack is also a valid point. That makes room for the 2 Ophidian Eyes I wanted! yay! I also think 3 might be overkill for it, as it only really shines when I have Psionic Gift out, otherwise, it would be a bit hard to use effectively. Thanks for the great input!
The changes have been reflected in the OP, still looking for input!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
And in non-pauper, Rebuff the Wicked.
EDIT: Sigil of Sleep. Duh.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4557651&postcount=1
TheWarden's Creative Commons Music Pick Project (Retired):
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=336498
Well, since I was called out on this, I guess I must chime in. Lol.
I've always like the idea of Confound. The draw makes it better than other cards that do the same and it's a great tempo card, but I agree with Obermeir on the negative part of it. I'd rather have counters that can handle any spell rather than just a few. Now using it as a Sideboard or a meta choice is another thing completely. If you know you'll need Confound then definitely use it, but otherwise you're better off with solid counters.
No Pili-pala? He's like a cheaper horseshoe.
I like Muddle the Mixture! The tutor part is really good for the deck.
I don't like Pili-Pala though. He is cheaper to cast, but not to untap. The crab is also better since it can dodge more burn than Pili-Pala.
Technicaaaaaaally, couldn't you just use the mana he makes to pay half of his next untap cost? Making it roughly the same?
Obe, I know you said you didn't want to splash a color (and my hindering light argument is out the window since someone else posted a functional monoblue equivalent) BUT, have you SEEN quicksilver dagger ?!?!
Why yes, I would like to Entwine my invoke the firemind every turn.
Roughly the same, but it still costs 2 mana on the first activation which gives you one less activation than the Crab gives you with the same amount of land. That can be the difference between a win or a loss.
I do like Quicksilver Dagger though. It's a Psionic Gift and Ophidian Eye in one!
Note that it only works on players.
Cockatrice is still going strong over at http://www.woogerworks.com[/B]
Ghostly Battlefield
The Winner is Judge [2]
Chasay, Caller of Fire
Skaab Corpse Looter
[B]This Winner is also Judge [0]
It also makes Muddle the Mixture usable, as now I can get Gift or the scarecrow to get a combo going. What Counter should I take out for Muddle?
Thanks for the awesome input!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I think the obvious choice is to drop Dispel for Muddle the Mixture. Muddle costs more, but it counters Instants as well as Sorceries, plus you don't want 2 counters that are as narrow as those cards.
What do you think of Pili-Pala inefficiency? Is it worth the lower cost over Soliton?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I think Pili-Pala is a better choice than Soliton since he is much cheaper to play. He'll speed up the deck and hopefully smooth out any problems you had with Soliton.
Here's the deck now, for page 2 reference:
4 Horseshoe Crab
4 Pili-Pala
3 Benthic Giant
Horseshoe stuff (12)
2 Banishing Knack
4 Hermetic Study
4 Psionic Gift
2 Ocular Halo
4 Counterspell
4 Prohibit
4 Muddle the Mixture
Ramp (3)
3 High Tide
22 Island
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Some useful auras:
Hermetic Study
Ocular Halo (this is nice)
Retraction Helix
Also, Ocular Halo > Ophidian Eye!!! Well spotted! Going to change those up!
I've also been testing against White Weenie (my "deck to beat" standard), and am holding my own! It's not great, but I probably need more practice. Pili-Pala actually ended up being really important as a source of colourless damage against Guardian of the Guildpact, which I had a hard time dealing with. The deck is actually really sneaky; it starts out looking exactly like MUC and then busts out a combo and wipes the board. Pretty awesome!
I'm also really happy with Benthic Giant. He's everything he's cracked up to be!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I don't see how Ocular Halo is better than Ophidian Eye. Am I missing something?
Ophidian Eye is cheaper and it adds draw to each time you ping your opponent AND it has flash so you can keep open mana to counter spells if need be.
Ocular Halo requires you to tap to activate it, wasting a chance to ping just to draw a card which leads to using up precious resources like spending extra mana to untap. Ocular Halo only seems good if you're still digging for Psionic Gift, but running 4 Gifts and 4 Muddle the Mixtures kind of make it a moot point.
It's just way more convenient, really.
Also, I'm noticing that I'm praying to get Psionic gift a lot more than more Banishing Knacks. While they do screw with the opponent's tempo way more, they don't actually deal with threats very well. I think I'm going to go with 4x Psionic Gift, 4x Hermetic Study and 2 Banishing Knacks. Should be more effective that way.
Haha, it's funny how the original card that inspired me to make this deck Pauper has slowly disappeared from the deck!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
4 Horseshoe Crab
4 Pili-Pala
2 Spire Golem
Horseshoe stuff (12)
2 Banishing Knack
4 Hermetic Study
4 Psionic Gift
2 Ocular Halo
4 Counterspell
4 Prohibit
4 Muddle the Mixture
Draw (3)
3 Ponder
23 Island
I took out the High tides, as they just weren't doing enough for the deck. Benthic Giant, while an awesome win condition, is just too slow. I prefer using the Golem as an earlier/cheaper form of defence, which can later start to do damage. I also added 3 Ponders and an extra land to compensate for less ramp. Now my combo should be slightly more consistent. I'm thinking of taking out Ocular Halo for more draw power and also taking out Banishing Knack completely in favor of Sigil of Sleep. Any thoughts/opinions on these?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio